Huge fire at West London tower block

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by denphone

Any council worth its salt should have strong contingency and emergency plans and the vast majority sadly don't.

No contingency plan would address every (thought to be) impossible emergency.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by denphone

Any council worth its salt should have strong contingency and emergency plans and the vast majority sadly don't.

You can only really be expected to plan for something that is likely to happen. How often does something on this scale happen?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by nomadking

You can only really be expected to plan for something that is likely to happen. How often does something on this scale happen?

They don't even have robust plans for things that are very likely to happen sadly in some councils.

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 14:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Kursk

No contingency plan would address every (thought to be) impossible emergency.

They used to before the likes of you and l were born though.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by nomadking

You can only really be expected to plan for something that is likely to happen. How often does something on this scale happen?

Yup, as awful as this is we don't and can't have contingency plans which cater fully for every eventuality. This was a massive event which has left hundreds of people homeless simultaneously and it was never going to be possible to house them all quickly and in suitable permanent accommodation in the same local area.

I think a lot of people in politics, the media and the legal profession especially need to stop fanning the flames and reconcile their anger with what happened and sympathy for the victims with the reality that no local authority anywhere would have been able to cope with a disaster of this scale. Frankly I'm astonished that our armed forces weren't called into assist given the role they've played in countless disaster situations around the world but maybe that was a political decision.

The victims too need to be realistic. I've heard several complaining about the lack of information they've been getting and the length of time the forensic investigation is taking. This is despite them being told quite clearly that experts are having to search through tonnes of charred remains on every floor by hand, trying to find even the smallest traces of DNA through which to identify those who've perished. I really don't understand why these residents just can't seem to grasp the huge nature of this task and the precision with which it has to be undertaken if the police are going to be able to identify everyone. I don't see what more anyone could realisitically be doing right now.

To a point they have been told by rabble rousers that the whole thing will be a whitewash and that it's more then just a tragic accident so not surprising they are pushing for information and many will still be trying to piece things together again not exactly the mindset for rational thought let alone those poor souls that lost family and friends. This needs to stop being used by certain groups and allow the residents to recover and come to terms with it best they can and for a proper unrushed investigation that can give as many facts as is possible given the scale of it.

I'm not really sure we will ever get a complete number for those who died as the fire burnt hot enough to incinerate a lot. I am pretty sure the council has a lot to answer for and if that's the case then somebody needs to go to prison. That said this council seems to be indicative of a general standard with councils across the nation with many being little more then council tax collectors and no interest or motivation to actually serve their communities.

We always hope something good can come out of things like this and i really hope it does these people seem to have been sidelined and ignored by the council for years and while I don't agree with some of the demands being made they have a voice and it deserves to be heard and should be.

Originally Posted by Kursk

Could any Council have truly been prepared to cope with such a tragedy?

In a word no.! But .

The tenants have said they were ignored by the council when complaining to the council about the fire risk which tragically proved to be true, the council even sent a solicitors letter when the tenants action group started a blog , which was only started as the tenants could not get legal aid to take their landlord to court. Over their fire risk warnings.

The landlord constantly ignored tenants warnings.

And even the leaders did not have the good grace to resign right away , they waited until downing street criticised them.

Failing arrogant council yes.

---------- Post added at 17:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:25 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

To a point they have been told by rabble rousers that the whole thing will be a whitewash and that it's more then just a tragic accident so not surprising they are pushing for information and many will still be trying to piece things together again not exactly the mindset for rational thought let alone those poor souls that lost family and friends. This needs to stop being used by certain groups and allow the residents to recover and come to terms with it best they can and for a proper unrushed investigation that can give as many facts as is possible given the scale of it.

I'm not really sure we will ever get a complete number for those who died as the fire burnt hot enough to incinerate a lot. I am pretty sure the council has a lot to answer for and if that's the case then somebody needs to go to prison. That said this council seems to be indicative of a general standard with councils across the nation with many being little more then council tax collectors and no interest or motivation to actually serve their communities.

We always hope something good can come out of things like this and i really hope it does these people seem to have been sidelined and ignored by the council for years and while I don't agree with some of the demands being made they have a voice and it deserves to be heard and should be.

The Hillsborugh victims families spent years and years getting justice and they did after the first enquirey whitewash was eventually overruled , is it any wonder they see that and think will we get justice quite rightly.

Your right they may never get the true number of victims most will most likely have evaporated due to the heat.

I agree with you on councils in general most members I have seen are lacklustre in our local council tried to contact one once to take up a case despite may attempts never did, most are little better then government revenue collectors with no motivation to do right by their communities well sadly it seems so.

Can only hope for a through enquirey with people at the top held to account,the victims and their families must keep pushing to get justice in Grenfell.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by denphone

They used to before the likes of you and l were born though.

Yes but in those days things like plastic, kevlar and in your case, the wheel, hadn't been invented .
-----------------------
How the fire started might have bearing on what might happen next imho.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Yes but in those days things like plastic, kevlar and in your case, the wheel, hadn't been invented .
-----------------------
How the fire started might have bearing on what might happen next imho.

i den's day it started by rubbing two dinosaurs together

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Yes but in those days things like plastic, kevlar and in your case, the wheel, hadn't been invented .
-----------------------

l am talking about the robust systems many authorities had in place before they started to absolve themselves of their many responsibilities that they had in their local communities in making sure everything was done right and proper and without severe costcutting and a lowering of standards.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ----------

Originally Posted by papa smurf

i den's day it started by rubbing two dinosaurs together

Its alright l have broad shoulders my dear.

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

i den's day it started by rubbing two dinosaurs together

Den invented fire by rubbing 2 dinosaur willies together. Not sure he was trying to invent fire though

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Kursk

Could any Council have truly been prepared to cope with such a tragedy?

In days gone by councils were required to make provision for the after effects of a nuclear war, what hope does this council have if they can't​ even cope with this?

Originally Posted by nomadking

People keep (conveniently) forgetting that those issues were with the council staff which has nothing to do with the councillors. How many of those staff would be union members and Corbyn supporters? The term "5th columnist" springs to mind.

Ultimately, councillors are expected to appoint competent management, who in turn are expected to employ competent staff to run services on a day to day basis.

In my experience, local authority managers are unable to manage their way out of a paper bag.

Originally Posted by Osem

Yup, as awful as this is we don't and can't have contingency plans which cater fully for every eventuality. This was a massive event which has left hundreds of people homeless simultaneously and it was never going to be possible to house them all quickly and in suitable permanent accommodation in the same local area.

I think a lot of people in politics, the media and the legal profession especially need to stop fanning the flames and reconcile their anger with what happened and sympathy for the victims with the reality that no local authority anywhere would have been able to cope with a disaster of this scale. Frankly I'm astonished that our armed forces weren't called into assist given the role they've played in countless disaster situations around the world but maybe that was a political decision.

The victims too need to be realistic. I've heard several complaining about the lack of information they've been getting and the length of time the forensic investigation is taking. This is despite them being told quite clearly that experts are having to search through tonnes of charred remains on every floor by hand, trying to find even the smallest traces of DNA through which to identify those who've perished. I really don't understand why these residents just can't seem to grasp the huge nature of this task and the precision with which it has to be undertaken if the police are going to be able to identify everyone. I don't see what more anyone could realisitically be doing right now.

Some victims insisted that they wanted to stay in the same area, citing such soundbites as "local support network". When they were offered somewhere, they turned it down on the grounds that they didn't want to have sight of the burned out flats!!!

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

In days gone by councils were required to make provision for the after effects of a nuclear war, what hope does this council have if they can't​ even cope with this?

Bear in mind that after a nuclear war, there wouldn't be much left to administrate and if I remember rightly the 'emergency plan' was to 'Duck and Cover' and 'Protect and Survive'. The plans were simplistic because the authorities knew we'd mostly all be dead.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Kursk

How the fire started might have bearing on what might happen next imho.

Irrelevant. How it spread and the council's reaction is the issue.
(and we know a Hotpoint fridge caused it http://www.goodhousekeeping.co.uk/co...ell-tower-fire)

[Kursk]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Irrelevant. How it spread and the council's reaction is the issue.
(and we know a Hotpoint fridge caused it http://www.goodhousekeeping.co.uk/co...ell-tower-fire)

A dismissive reply accompanied by an inconclusive link .

'We have just been informed that the fire may have originated in a Hotpoint fridge freezer (model number FF175BP),' Hotpoint told us in a statement. 'We are working with the authorities to obtain access to the appliance so that we can assist with the ongoing investigations.

They seem to think how the fire started is relevant.

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

Some victims insisted that they wanted to stay in the same area, citing such soundbites as "local support network". When they were offered somewhere, they turned it down on the grounds that they didn't want to have sight of the burned out flats!!!

People want to live close enough that their children can attend the same schools as well. Which is fair enough.

I think Osem is right that people shouldn't be stirring up the resentment over the time it's taking to find out the precise death toll when it seems like that it's simply how long it will take. The investigators don't seem to be dragging their feet but are instead dealing with a difficult issue. It's disappointing to see politicians trying to push that angle.

But as for the families people should remember that they are understandably upset and angry. It's very easy to be objective and analytical on the outside but considerable harder if you are directly involved. I think few of us know how they're feeling.

It's also hard to tell the victims to trust the system to deliver justice when they think it's already failed them to tragic effect. Someone above mentioned Hillsborough and whilst I think that comparison is too early it's an example of why you should also retain skepticism over the word of the authorities and listen to the victims.