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Old 18-10-2017, 12:34   #391
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
Who'd have thought...

https://order-order.com/2017/10/17/o...#disqus_thread

Nice 'work' if you can get it eh? I'm sure that's irrelevant though...
Oh look, who'd have thought, Guido Fawkes trying to discredit something because he doesn't like what it says.

Perhaps rather than trying to discredit the messenger because you don't like the message it'd be wiser to actually consider the message on its own merits.

I'm sure there are flaws with the OECD's report and look forward to forum members showing them to the rest of us.

Regarding OECD funding the EU paid the OECD for bodies of work, it's not brown envelopes in some alleyway it's on public record, and the bulk of the OECD's funding is actually from the United States.

http://www.oecd.org/about/budget/mem...tributions.htm

http://www.oecd.org/about/membersandpartners/
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Old 18-10-2017, 12:36   #392
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx View Post
Then fight 'fear' with facts
If you have a pathological hatred of something then facts are the last thing you would offer.

There does seem to be a pattern here: when evidence is put forward on why this whole project is flawed and that the Turkey's have indeed voted for Christmas, the response is one of the following:

- Faith and Hope, my friend, Faith and Hope
- Stop telling me what I do not want to hear
- a cartoon-like, one dimensional portrayal of something that is complex and nuanced

If leaving the EU with no plan and no preparation led by a team of infighting incompetents is not going to make us poorer, please give us the evidence?

Oh, did I add that voting Leave will now, due to the Tory incompetence, directly lead to a Corbyn Government? Enjoy
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Old 18-10-2017, 12:48   #393
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx View Post
Then fight 'fear' with facts. If most predictions suggest that Brexit is destructive to the UK economy but these predictions are 'BS' as you and another forummer say, then show why they are wrong. As I said earlier, if there is evidence of flawed methodology or the studies are lies, then surely it would be good for everyone to expose this to the world. It would help stabilise our economy and persuade companies to stay in the UK.

I would like to see these secret treasury reports of sector by sector analysis. Hopefully these will be published soon.

You live in a dream world if you think the EU isn't lurking in the shadows behind closed doors, doing back hand deals with companies to distupt the UK-EU partnership.

If anything that has come out of this and something I agree with a remainer is that we can't go back into the EU with the same privileges we had before. It's almost like this is what they wanted us to do. be a 3rd rate country as part of the 28 member nation if we go back.

We need to press on and move on from them it's only going to get worse and if anything Brexit has shown how bad the EU actually is.

You tell me when all we see in the papers is Germany and France at the top of the table when it comes how how laws and decisions are made? I've no doubt the other nations get a vote it's pretty hard to say Yes/No to the 2 Mafia bosses sat at the end of the table.

The 2 that decide how trade and a matter of all other things work within the EU they can make it easy or hard for those said countries if things don't go the way they want.

We have shown by pulling out how bad it can actually be to the others.

Call me what you want a person with no knowledge of the EU but I've seen enough to say bye and I don't give a stuff what a pro-remainer thinks.
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Old 18-10-2017, 12:57   #394
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 View Post
If you have a pathological hatred of something then facts are the last thing you would offer.

There does seem to be a pattern here: when evidence is put forward on why this whole project is flawed and that the Turkey's have indeed voted for Christmas, the response is one of the following:

- Faith and Hope, my friend, Faith and Hope
- Stop telling me what I do not want to hear
- a cartoon-like, one dimensional portrayal of something that is complex and nuanced

If leaving the EU with no plan and no preparation led by a team of infighting incompetents is not going to make us poorer, please give us the evidence?

Oh, did I add that voting Leave will now, due to the Tory incompetence, directly lead to a Corbyn Government? Enjoy
Its what you call unintended consequences told to me by a man far wiser then l.
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Old 18-10-2017, 13:11   #395
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Re: Brexit discussion

Ugh. Okay it is breaktime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
This is true, just look at all these other countries that are outside the EU they seem to be doing ok?
Indeed. Many of them in their own trade areas and a number having other agreements with the European Union.

Perhaps most pertinently none apart from Greenland have ever been members of the EU. Given that, apples and oranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
I saw an article a while ago that stated "David Cameron" EU laws are only 14% over the UK while "Nigel Farage" said actually it's about 75%

So there you have it the EU has got that much of a grip over the UK they don't even know what is UK law and what is EU law.
https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-w...influenced-eu/

20 seconds on Google.

Incidentally every law in the UK is a UK law. We transpose EU law into UK law as and when, referencing the directives in question, but Parliament are sovereign and can, at their discretion, refuse to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35630757

For the difference between directives and regulations as I imagine Nigel Farage wouldn't have mentioned that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
We have allowed the likes of Germany and France to totally take over, there is talk about how the UK has it's own laws and only a small percentage is EU related "pro-remainer" point of view.

In reality we have screwed up we have allowed other nations "mainly two" to get a grip around the throat of the UK we can't even take a crap without permission these days. If the laws relating to the EU and trade were so small then why is it taking so long?
The first paragraph above: it's baseless nonsense peddled by people trying to cause grief that Germany and France have taken over. While the UK has never engaged in the EU as fully as Germany and France our influence has been deep, as would be expected from what was the second largest economy, and we were appreciated as both a counter-weight to Germano-Franco influence and a force for free trade within the EU.

The internal market was driven by the UK. The expansion to the east was driven by the UK.

It makes little sense that you think the UK would do superbly outside of the EU, having to deal with the likes of China and the United States but can be so cucked by Germany and France.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
Any law changes in the UK have to be approved with the EU that make sure it doesn't affect them. This is also proven with trade you trade with the EU or you trade with the world it's one or the other.
Germany obviously didn't get that memo. Neither evidently did the EU given the various bilateral agreements in addition to free trade agreements they have. The first sentence is nonsense. The EU does not 'approve' every law. If that were the case there would be no disputes that needed to be resolved. Parliament is sovereign.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
This is just trade, we haven't even scratched the surface on anything else EU related.
We're in a trade bloc with a deep integration of economies. We have a common customs area and an internal market that we have agreed to comply with. What do you think that means? You make trade deals you don't get to unilaterally change the terms of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
They want to go down the Federal state route but why is this never mentioned by remainers?
Because firstly that's not true, some seem to want to, others don't, and regardless it's irrelevant to the UK as you'd know if you went beyond tabloid reports. The UK cannot be compelled to join a federal state, we would both have a veto over the creation of it in the first place and to join it would trigger a referendum here.

Most of those who wish to remain that I know reference it with disdain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
Just look at the October EU summit of the 27 nations they were told not to talk about Brexit or meet about it till December now. By who Germany and France?.
They're talking about Brexit on Friday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
I'm not falling for all The bullying coming from Europe because all this scare mongering crap is back handers to those behind closed doors to instill fear to the UK public and businesses.
And yet you are happy to drink in the scaremongering from media, some politicians, and those who have personal gain to be made from the whole process when it's what you want to hear or confirms your own prejudices. Go figure.

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 View Post
Call me what you want a person with no knowledge of the EU but I've seen enough to say bye and I don't give a stuff what a pro-remainer thinks.
Indeed. You have no interest in hearing anything you don't agree with.

Let's hope in the longer term you're proven right.

---------- Post added at 12:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone View Post
Its what you call unintended consequences told to me by a man far wiser then l.
If the Conservatives do carry on making a complete mess up of our exit from the EU and Corbyn and company get a majority and start working their 'magic' it should be interesting to see how strong the bubbles some people seem to live in are. What would it take before they start, even to themselves, thinking that there may be a little regret creeping in?
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Old 18-10-2017, 13:29   #396
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Re: Brexit discussion

Facts eh? Well what facts are there? Plenty of opinions and some economic facts the cause of many of which are also a matter of opinion. How about you remainers admitting the facts about where the EU is heading and the massive risks and dangers that poses for the UK? They're perfectly open about it over there you know, Juncker's state of the union address summed it all up and where we'll be heading if we don't leave. I'm sorry but for a lot of already discussed reasons there is only one way forward in the EU and that's far more of a risk than anything else we'll face outside.
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Old 18-10-2017, 13:36   #397
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
Facts eh? Well what facts are there? Plenty of opinions and some economic facts the cause of many of which are also a matter of opinion. How about you remainers admitting the facts about where the EU is heading and the massive risks and dangers that poses for the UK? They're perfectly open about it over there you know, Juncker's state of the union address summed it all up and where we'll be heading if we don't leave. I'm sorry but for a lot of already discussed reasons there is only one way forward in the EU and that's far more of a risk than anything else we'll face outside.
The UK retains a veto over much of what could be done. We wouldn't be 'forced' to join the Euro as someone above. The UK is, was, a powerful member too and Junker is not god of the EU, plenty of member states are hostile to the ideas he advocates, so he can mouth off as much as he likes.

Last edited by Damien; 18-10-2017 at 13:41.
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Old 18-10-2017, 15:02   #398
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
The UK retains a veto over much of what could be done. We wouldn't be 'forced' to join the Euro as someone above. The UK is, was, a powerful member too and Junker is not god of the EU, plenty of member states are hostile to the ideas he advocates, so he can mouth off as much as he likes.
If we remain now it'll be with our tail firmly between our legs and our government in cahoots with those who run the EU will ensure the rules are changed and that we can never leave. Juncker has spelt it out quite clearly and after decades of experience at the hands of these people and certain of our own leaders, it's clearly not just one man's hot air. The UK powerful within the EU? Really? We're so powerful that they wouldn't budge an inch prior to the Brexit vote or since. Please tell me what concessions all the power we have has yielded since Thatcher stood up to them? That's how much power we have in the EU. What we've seen over the decades is more and more powers ceded to and grabbed by the EU over that time and they won't rest until they get their way. I really don't understand how anyone can a) fail to see that, b) not be scared witless by the prospect and c) fear life outside of the club to such an extent that they'd accept anything to stay within it.

Anyway in other EU news:

Quote:
Germany’s foreign ministry is working on a “balanced, ambitious and far-reaching” free trade deal with Brexit Britain – apparently they want a deal on security, agriculture, trade, energy, air travel and research
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...it-paper-shows

Of course if we get Corbyn's cronies elected into power any time soon they won't need to go through with any of this because Labour have effectively confirmed they'll accept any deal from the EU:

https://order-order.com/2017/10/18/t...ccept-eu-deal/

Terrific!

Last edited by Osem; 18-10-2017 at 15:19.
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Old 18-10-2017, 15:13   #399
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
If we remain now it'll be with our tail firmly between our legs and our government in cahoots with those who run the EU will ensure the rules are changed and that we can never leave.
You don't need the EU in order for our government to screw us over. They can do that anyway. Case in point: their approach to Brexit.

Quote:
The UK powerful within the EU? Really? We're so powerful that they wouldn't budge an inch prior to the Brexit vote or since. Please tell me what concessions all the power we have has yielded since Thatcher stood up to them?
France and Germany have power too. We have the power to block a lot of things but not impose them. The Veto applies to certain areas, big questions like foreign policy and budgets, so any EU army would never get anywhere as long as we were there as we would block it. So the major chances people cite on here were not going to come to a vote as what's the point. Veto would be issued.
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Old 18-10-2017, 15:23   #400
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
You don't need the EU in order for our government to screw us over. They can do that anyway. Case in point: their approach to Brexit.



France and Germany have power too. We have the power to block a lot of things but not impose them. The Veto applies to certain areas, big questions like foreign policy and budgets, so any EU army would never get anywhere as long as we were there as we would block it. So the major chances people cite on here were not going to come to a vote as what's the point. Veto would be issued.
If the UK were to try to stop the EU's progression towards its end goal they would find a way to change the rules and yes that could very well be with the assistance of certain our own politicians just like Blair did. Tell me Damien what would you suggest the UK did if that were to happen? No future change of government could undo it.
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Old 18-10-2017, 15:39   #401
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Re: Brexit discussion

There have been so much anti-EU propaganda that the EU have a website set-up to debunk years of myths:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...daily-chart-15

Quote:
THE Brexit campaign has been plagued by little white lies, half-truths and disinformation. Neither side has showered itself in glory in its attempts to persuade the British public of the benefits or drawbacks of EU membership. But Britain has a long and well-observed tradition of fabricating facts about Europe—so much so that the European Commission (EC) set up a website to debunk these lies in the early 1990s


Here's the site:

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/...ths-a-z-index/

Makes interesting reading ..
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Old 18-10-2017, 15:48   #402
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem View Post
If the UK were to try to stop the EU's progression towards its end goal they would find a way to change the rules and yes that could very well be with the assistance of certain our own politicians just like Blair did. Tell me Damien what would you suggest the UK did if that were to happen? No future change of government could undo it.
I would campaign to vote to leave should they do it. I am not going to vote leave based on a hypothetical scenario you've come up with.

Last edited by Damien; 18-10-2017 at 16:00.
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Old 18-10-2017, 17:05   #403
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I would campaign to vote to leave should they do it. I am not going to vote leave based on a hypothetical scenario you've come up with.
Virtually everything's hypothetical right now - it's just which type of hypothetical is the most risky. There's nothing about the EU which shows they're willing to compromise, change direction or anything else. They can't even allow themselves to allow a major European ally to exit their pipe dream without making a stark point to us and other nations about how painful they will make it and trying to undermine the City of London for example. We know this is true and yet you still prefer to trust them and risk being drawn into something we'll never get out of no matter how we vote. At last at a general election where we can vote for change. Since when did the EU accept a vote for significant change on any of their core principles? I'm sorry, I can accept that life outside the EU won't be a bed or roses and does raise concerns but I find the attitude that a bunch of singleminded Eurocrats acting largely at the behest of Germany can be trusted with this nation's interests more than our own parliament bizarre.

Last edited by Osem; 18-10-2017 at 17:11.
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Old 18-10-2017, 18:07   #404
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Re: Brexit discussion

You guys do understand that Germany has 8.4% of the voting weight in the European Council right? This is the same as France, Italy and the UK and just above Spain and Poland. If anything, Germany is under represented due to its population size.

Check out the Treaty of Nice to see how much influence Germany has - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting...2014.2F2017.29
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Old 18-10-2017, 18:41   #405
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Re: Brexit discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
Understood.

I presume you'll be able to demonstrate why it's fear mongering BS?
Given they got most of their other forecasts wrong, I would say is a given, oh and that big fat sum they were given by the EU, is another?

You cannot be seriously expecting me to believe something written from people paid from the very people we are trying to leave, surely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

You'd need to ask Boris Johnson about that. He's the one who mentioned it.
I am pretty sure you mean David Cameron, he definitely mentioned it and I am deliberately including a link to the mirror here, as you know, hardly Tory fans...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...ld-war-7928607
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