New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?

Originally Posted by Chris

Does it have to pay for itself? Does the road network pay for itself? The point of State-sponsored infrastructure developments is their wider enabling effect on the economy, not that they should be profitable in and of themselves.



I'm not certain that a convincing argument has been made that spending money on HS2 means not spending it on the existing WCML.

i think the road network probably does pay for itself chris its often stated the amount collected in road tax exceeds that spent on the roads by some so it goes without saying some is filtered into general taxation pot.

Yes chris i agree with state sponsered infrastruture where a case has been made without exception,i just think in HS2s case it has not been made just why is it so desperately needed.

Its going to be out of range of most ordinary folk and will business users make the required use its hard to tell.

Originally Posted by richard1960

i think the road network probably does pay for itself chris its often stated the amount collected in road tax exceeds that spent on the roads by some so it goes without saying some is filtered into general taxation pot.

Yes chris i agree with state sponsered infrastruture where a case has been made without exception,i just think in HS2s case it has not been made just why is it so desperately needed.

Its going to be out of range of most ordinary folk and will business users make the required use its hard to tell.

lets face it ,by the time it's finished it may be out of date ,how is it going to take so long to be built ?the french built an entire high speed network in 20yrs

And look at the value that has added...

Originally Posted by Hugh

And look at the value that has added...

don't follow you hugh
.....value added to what ?

Business and tourism travel (the TGV).

Originally Posted by Hugh

Business and tourism travel (the TGV).

yes totally agree ,difference is though we've left building our high speed network a bit late .France started theirs in in 1976 with LN1 opening in 1981 with LN8 opening in 2011 .We have given ourselves a time scale of "sometime between 2016 and 2026" for 100miles .... I think we have missed the boat .

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by richard1960

i think the road network probably does pay for itself chris its often stated the amount collected in road tax exceeds that spent on the roads by some so it goes without saying some is filtered into general taxation pot.

A private eye article I read back in the 90s actually said that although the treasury's accounting processes made working out what tax paid for what extremely difficult, there was actually some evidence that the tax being paid in the 90s on the road did not cover the costs of running them, and the treasury was diverting money from other areas (such as the Railways) to fund road projects.

Think about it. It's possible. While you would pay more in taxes on the petrol you use, road tax is the same whether you drive 1 mile a year or 1,000,000.

I was on the high speed rail link connecting London to Kent today. I've been on it before and it really is very good. Comfortable, modern and fast. I had experience going the same route while at University, before the HS1 was finished, and it's significantly better now so whenever I make that trip I always take it.

I can't understand why we shouldn't roll out the network across the country. It's fantastic. Imagine the benefits of the major cities and commuter hubs being connected by high speed rail, suddenly the entire country will be within a short amount of time from each other.

I see people saying that it 'only' saves 23 minutes. That isn't an insignificant amount of time to save for that journey. If we were talking about London to Glasgow then maybe but saving 23 minutes on the relatively short Journey to Birmingham is noticeable.

The only problem I can see if we're too slow in building it. We should have started building already and be going to Manchester now, with Birmingham a mere milestone along the way.

Originally Posted by Damien

I was on the high speed rail link connecting London to Kent today. I've been on it before and it really is very good. Comfortable, modern and fast. I had experience going the same route while at University, before the HS1 was finished, and it's significantly better now so whenever I make that trip I always take it.

I can't understand why we shouldn't roll out the network across the country. It's fantastic. Imagine the benefits of the major cities and commuter hubs being connected by high speed rail, suddenly the entire country will be within a short amount of time from each other.

I see people saying that it 'only' saves 23 minutes. That isn't an insignificant amount of time to save for that journey. If we were talking about London to Glasgow then maybe but saving 23 minutes on the relatively short Journey to Birmingham is noticeable.

The only problem I can see if we're too slow in building it. We should have started building already and be going to Manchester now, with Birmingham a mere milestone along the way.

The last time i used a train on a regular basis was going from london to dover (i was in the army at the time in '81) and that trip was a proper chore ,so yes i can understand the benefits of the HS1 ,but with this being Britain it will be the next century before we get a decent national network such as france and we may be using flying cars by then

Originally Posted by martyh

The last time i used a train on a regular basis was going from london to dover (i was in the army at the time in '81) and that trip was a proper chore ,so yes i can understand the benefits of the HS1 ,but with this being Britain it will be the next century before we get a decent national network such as france and we may be using flying cars by then

We shouldn't be resigned to such a fate, we should press ahead with plans to bring High Speed rail nationwide as soon as possible. A epic undertaking to improve british transport by providing a new, modern backbone to the network.

Originally Posted by Damien

We shouldn't be resigned to such a fate, we should press ahead with plans to bring High Speed rail nationwide as soon as possible. A epic undertaking to improve british transport by providing a new, modern backbone to the network.

I couldn't agree more and i would be 100%behind the London -Birmingham line if there was a commitment to others .On it's own it is meaningless .Maybe in 50yrs time Britain may have one but the reality is we need it now within 10yrs

[Trent]

Why are we not investing in a maglev.. its half the price

http://www.maglevuk.org/

[Chrysalis]

32billion for a single rail link is way excessive, I am normally an advocate of investment but this is just stupid. So its saves 49mins for a service how much of the population use?

Arent this government supposed to be reigning back spending? so how did this slip though.

I can also forsee ticket prices been raised to try and get the money back which could lead to empty trains as people get priced out.

Who is likely to use this service aside from business people? as normal people are already getting priced out of trains as is.

The modern era actually has video conferencing for meetings as well.

So cuts to disabled, social care, welfare etc. Country cant afford it.
Investments to aid a short rail link that will primarily benefit business people.

Investment in a nationwide fibre network would make more sense allowing better video conferencing so people dont need to travel in the first place.

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

32billion for a single rail link is way excessive, I am normally an advocate of investment but this is just stupid. So its saves 49mins for a service how much of the population use?

Again. The time saved is not insignificant. It can be the difference between a comfortable trip and a awkward one. The difference between a business deciding being based outside of London isn't a disadvantage and deciding that it's just not close enough to their clients.

Who is likely to use this service aside from business people? as normal people are already getting priced out of trains as is.

I used HS1 yesterday. I have used it a number of times and I have used the Eurostar quite a bit as well.

The modern era actually has video conferencing for meetings as well.

It also has European rivals who do have High Speed Rail. The cool thing is once connected we can be part of a High Speed network across the continent. Manchester to Paris, London to Berlin and so on.

[Chrysalis]

Originally Posted by Damien

Again. The time saved is not insignificant. It can be the difference between a comfortable trip and a awkward one. The difference between a business deciding being based outside of London isn't a disadvantage and deciding that it's just not close enough to their clients.



I used HS1 yesterday. I have used it a number of times and I have used the Eurostar quite a bit as well.



It also has European rivals who do have High Speed Rail. The cool thing is once connected we can be part of a High Speed network across the continent. Manchester to Paris, London to Berlin and so on.

That may be Damien but the cost is obscene. I would be more inclined to belly it if it was the entire rail network but its just one small part of it which it seems you happen to be lucky to live somewhere where you would use it and able to afford it. I would love to see a cost breakdown as this smacks of some kind of deal to net a few people some easy riches.

If germany and france have built much more I am interested in what their's cost as a comparison.