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TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?
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Old 31-08-2010, 00:17   #46
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdadyslexia View Post
First off it is a legal obligation to comply with the code specified.

Second I know NTL did not cache the page for one simple reason, the content on the page would be updated wen I uploaded new content to my web server.

Now plese stop trying to defend the undefendable.

I am not going to reply to you any more.
Just repeating yourself doesn't make it so - it would be helpful if you could actually link to the ruling/statute that states this.
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Old 31-08-2010, 01:25   #47
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdadyslexia View Post
First off it is a legal obligation to comply with the code specified.
Not sure I believe it is. It *is* a requirement of the various HTTP standards that the directive be respected, but following HTTP standards is not a legal requirement.

I suppose copyright law might apply.
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Old 31-08-2010, 03:10   #48
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Maybe you need to talk to a good Copyright lawyer. If the T&Cs of a website forbid caching then caching is illegal, that is in the code or robots.txt or any other T&C. Google do not cache sites if told not to nor do any of the major search engines.

As for TT, they have been sent the T&C under which they are permitted to access/attempt to access my websites.

As for gaping holes in my logic, I would be interested in exactly what they would be. If TT breaks the T&Cs then there are several routes that will apply. If they obey the T&Cs then they will not be accessing/attempting to access my websites.

Someone mentioned Google. As part of the agreement with Google a site will be malware free, else Google have the option to remove it from the search indexing. Google index some of my sites with my permission. If I change robots.txt to bar Google, Google stops indexing. In addition, as I mentioned above Google does obey non-caching code on pages.

TT has ignored robots.txt on some of my sites, which bars them.

Now if you want to know what I am doing about it you will have to wait and see as it happens. Sorry this is a public forum and I am not going to publish for the world to know what or when I am doing this or that. Yes, I will publish what has done, as I have to date but only after it is done.
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Old 31-08-2010, 12:15   #49
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdadyslexia View Post
First off it is a legal obligation to comply with the code specified.

Second I know NTL did not cache the page for one simple reason, the content on the page would be updated wen I uploaded new content to my web server.

Now plese stop trying to defend the undefendable.

I am not going to reply to you any more.
No it is not a legal obligation to comply with that Pragma, it's not even an obligation within the HTTP standard.

ntl's caches may well have been treating your content in the manner I described - verifying it with the origin server then serving some content from the cache - you have no way to know this is the case or not without having detailed logs of the transactions.

I can defend whatever I wish, sticking your fingers in your ears and singing 'I can't hear you' because you can't back up your points merely undermines your arguments, not mine. You clearly didn't know how cache control works and made a blanket statement which you can't cite any kind of proof for.

---------- Post added at 11:11 ---------- Previous post was at 11:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
Not sure I believe it is. It *is* a requirement of the various HTTP standards that the directive be respected, but following HTTP standards is not a legal requirement.

I suppose copyright law might apply.
It's not a requirement of HTTP that that meta is respected, HTTP 1.1 cache-control headers are an obligation.

---------- Post added at 11:15 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Now if you want to know what I am doing about it you will have to wait and see as it happens. Sorry this is a public forum and I am not going to publish for the world to know what or when I am doing this or that. Yes, I will publish what has done, as I have to date but only after it is done.
Ignoring the rest of it as there has been no legal precedent I'm aware of in the UK on these matters - legal precedent in the US is that caching is 'fair use' regardless of code within the websites.

Breaking T+Cs is not illegal, if these copyright lawyers of yours are telling you this they are quite mistaken. It may leave a civil suit open but it is most certainly not against the law.

I look forward, with interest, to seeing how this pans out, presumably in court.
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Old 31-08-2010, 12:47   #50
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
Ignoring the rest of it as there has been no legal precedent I'm aware of in the UK on these matters - legal precedent in the US is that caching is 'fair use' regardless of code within the websites.

Breaking T+Cs is not illegal, if these copyright lawyers of yours are telling you this they are quite mistaken. It may leave a civil suit open but it is most certainly not against the law.

I look forward, with interest, to seeing how this pans out, presumably in court.
Sorry, any breach of a Statute is against the law, whether the recourse is via the Criminal or Civil Courts. Statutes passed by the UK Parliament and given Royal Assent under the Royal Assent Act are Laws not something you can obey if you feel like it and ignore if you don’t. Also don’t forget EU Directives and Precedents apply in the UK.
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Old 31-08-2010, 16:12   #51
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Please show/link to the statute to which you refer.
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Old 31-08-2010, 17:09   #52
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post

It's not a requirement of HTTP that that meta is respected, HTTP 1.1 cache-control headers are an obligation.[COLOR="Silver"]
Yep.. Looks like I misread my own info..

---------- Post added at 16:09 ---------- Previous post was at 16:00 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Sorry, any breach of a Statute is against the law, whether the recourse is via the Criminal or Civil Courts. Statutes passed by the UK Parliament and given Royal Assent under the Royal Assent Act are Laws not something you can obey if you feel like it and ignore if you don’t. Also don’t forget EU Directives and Precedents apply in the UK.
No one is arguing that you can ignore statutes. You can't. We are merely pointing out that breaking a site's Terms and conditions is not actually illegal. Any action you perform that breaks those Ts&Cs may be illegal, but Ts&Cs themselves are not legally binding.

I do believe, however, that UK copyright law allows for a form of caching though. I'll admit, I could be wrong.
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Old 31-08-2010, 17:15   #53
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
Please show/link to the statute to which you refer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Now if you want to know what I am doing about it you will have to wait and see as it happens. Sorry this is a public forum and I am not going to publish for the world to know what or when I am doing this or that. Yes, I will publish what has done, as I have to date but only after it is done.
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Old 31-08-2010, 17:51   #54
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
Please show/link to the statute to which you refer.
As above. I will note however that it was inaccurate of me to refer to breaking T+Cs as not illegal, I should have referred to it as not being criminal - my mistake.

I'm struggling here. Hard to take you seriously when you claim any and all caching is illegal and refer to consulting with lawyers and are insinuating that you are taking legal action against Talk Talk.

Sorry, just difficult to take comments at face value when you refuse to provide any kind of information to back it up.

If it helps though for those jumping on the RIPA bandwagon this is probably not a violation of RIPA - it could be considered to be an automated process as there is no point where the data is available to humans, alternatively it could be said that it is being used for malware prevention and that malware prevention is a part of the communications service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ICO
1. Is there an interception?
Interception takes place if the contents of a communication are made available, during the course of its transmission, to someone other than the sender or intended recipient. Depending on the nature of the communication the intended recipient may be simply a business or a specific individual. Examples where interception may take place include a supervisor listening in to calls, a business opening e-mails stored on a server before they have been opened by the intended recipient, and an automated system that opens e-mails and/or their attachments to check them for viruses.
This could get very interesting. I do hope you win whatever suit you run, the consequences could be very interesting in how ISPs react to a content providers whose content relies on their networks to reach customers setting one-sided terms and conditions at a whim and litigating.

Clearly ISPs, especially those the size of Talk Talk, simply don't have the resources to police such things especially if large amounts of web masters jump on the bandwagon. It soon becomes more efficient to simply ACL said sites on border routers.

Someone pass me some popcorn
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Old 31-08-2010, 18:07   #55
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Now if you want to know what I am doing about it you will have to wait and see as it happens. Sorry this is a public forum and I am not going to publish for the world to know what or when I am doing this or that. Yes, I will publish what has done, as I have to date but only after it is done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
Please show/link to the statute to which you refer.
So, you believe all ISPs are breaching statutes, but refuse to state which one - Ooookaaaaay, then.

You are going to have to tell someone, sometime - if your premise is not open to public scrutiny (quite amusing for someone who is fervent about openness), not really much chance in court, is there (it's not Perry Mason/LA Law, where you can suddenly suprise the other side with previously secret evidence, you know ).

btw, T&Cs don't supersede the laws and statutes of the land, you know - they have to be aligned to them, or they are, in themselves, valueless (such as a T&C that states something that is illegal is invalid).
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Old 31-08-2010, 18:09   #56
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar View Post
Please show/link to the statute to which you refer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Now if you want to know what I am doing about it you will have to wait and see as it happens. Sorry this is a public forum and I am not going to publish for the world to know what or when I am doing this or that. Yes, I will publish what has done, as I have to date but only after it is done.
He didn't ask what you are doing about it. I suspect he doesn't want to know that (I know I don't). He asked what statute you think is being broken.
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Old 31-08-2010, 18:19   #57
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
He didn't ask what you are doing about it. I suspect he doesn't want to know that (I know I don't). He asked what statute you think is being broken.

Stuart by giving that information here that will signal the route/s I am going down.

If anyone is really interested in what is going on, the whole thing is documented at http://www.the-phoenix-broadband-adv...ic,1828.0.html complete with copies of correspondence.

BTW All, please read my posts and don't make assumptions about what I write.

I will not be bothering to reply again.
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Old 31-08-2010, 18:23   #58
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart View Post
He didn't ask what you are doing about it. I suspect he doesn't want to know that (I know I don't). He asked what statute you think is being broken.
Correct - I didn't realise
Quote:
Please show/link to the statute to which you refer
was open to a different interpretation - Hatari must have been making assumptions about what I wrote......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Stuart by giving that information here that will signal the route/s I am going down.

If anyone is really interested in what is going on, the whole thing is documented at http://www.the-phoenix-broadband-adv...ic,1828.0.html complete with copies of correspondence.

BTW All, please read my posts and don't make assumptions about what I write.

I will not be bothering to reply again.
a) one has to register to read this stuff - really open, then.....
b) lack of information and clarity often leads to assumptions being made
c) bye
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Old 31-08-2010, 19:02   #59
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Stuart by giving that information here that will signal the route/s I am going down.

If anyone is really interested in what is going on, the whole thing is documented at http://www.the-phoenix-broadband-adv...ic,1828.0.html complete with copies of correspondence.
So, you can't give that info here, but have documented everything elsewhere? BTW, I fail to see how telling us what statute caching your content is breaking will actually give anyone an idea of which route you are going down.

Quote:
BTW All, please read my posts and don't make assumptions about what I write.
I've made no assumptions. I've read what you wrote, and asked questions based upon only that. Questions which you have failed to answer.

Quote:
I will not be bothering to reply again.
Fair enough.
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Old 31-08-2010, 19:56   #60
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Stuart by giving that information here that will signal the route/s I am going down.

If anyone is really interested in what is going on, the whole thing is documented at http://www.the-phoenix-broadband-adv...ic,1828.0.html complete with copies of correspondence.

BTW All, please read my posts and don't make assumptions about what I write.

I will not be bothering to reply again.
I have seen the quality of the spelling and grammar in your correspondence with Charles Dunstone along with your implications that you have legal advice, though this is questionable given the content within those emails.

I note you claiming that Stalk Stalk is illegal - I have doubts. It's not Interception by the RIPA definition any more than an ISP scanning one's email for viruses could be considered as such.

Trying to claim 10 pounds per connection from Stalk Stalk doesn't strike me as something that'll go down too well in court.

Claiming copyright breaches - I don't see how Stalk Stalk is breaking copyright any more than a visitor to your website is breaking copyright. Yes, we download your content too.

Complaining about ignorance of robots.txt is a bit odd, the robots.txt file is for things like the Google spider which traverse through links, etc, of sites. It is in no way respected by caches. If the Stalk Stalk software is merely replaying customer requests it is not a spider, so no need to honour robots.

I just went to two of your sites - there is zero cache control on there. Odd that, given caching is illegal according to you, you do none of the well known mechanisms to prevent it. I even went as far as capturing a full packet level transaction for each to see if there were any HTTP 1.1 cache-control headers present. Couldn't see any.

Your .org.uk website selling site design. IANA but I understood that a postal address is required for websites which are offering goods / services?

You don't appear to have a limited company registered at Companies House - somewhat odd that you are looking for business on your design site and claim to have designed million hit per month sites. Can't see such million hit per month sites anywhere on your portfolio or even a reference to building such sites either - strange, I would have thought this would be a fantastic selling point.

I would suspect that keeping the information on your site is purely about driving traffic to that site up. As it will inevitably be looked at by Talk Talk there is certainly no legal motive there.

I really, really am looking forward to seeing if any legal action happens. I must confess some doubts that it will, especially having seen the emails which will, inevitably, be used as part of the action. I am sure that what could be construed as an attempt to extort Talk Talk will go down fabulously.

Yep I may well need some popcorn.

Bye!

EDIT: Just read your recruitment thread on Think Broadband. Nice touch having the correspondence initially in the open then making it registered users only. Pretty lame excuse, if you could happily spot the Stalk Stalk boxes, they apparently being their two DNS servers, it seems odd it would suddenly get more difficult and require you to make the site registration only.

If you were that concerned about your site's security from Stalk Stalk's boxes you'd just HTTPS it - it is hosted by a company that gives free SSL after all.

Someone posting how you aren't a dictator is also a nice touch, enjoying the advertising and non-answers in your own posts too.

Still at least we get to the crux of what you're after in the end - money.

Amusing.
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