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TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?
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Old 28-08-2010, 17:12   #31
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
It is somewhat amusing that website owners think they are entitled to charge ISPs to access their site, their property on the Internet, while jumping up and down to keep the net 'neutral' and prevent ISPs from running their networks, their property, in any way which may prejudice them.

This aside I've no doubt the usual people will be writing to Talk Talk, MPs, Europe, The UN,The Pope, Mahatma Gandhi, God and whoever else even though it doesn't affect them in any way to complain, because that's what they do, and Talk Talk will likely give the usual PR nonsense, then fire an incompetent junior legal advisor who gave this the thumbs up and drop it because it's simply too much hassle.

Different day, different company, same people protesting, probably same results due to carelessness of said company.
As a TT customer, I have to obey TT’s terms and conditions of use of the broadband they sell me. Within those Ts&Cs, there is nothing that allows TT to monitor where I go on the web or to use the URLs I have used to accesses the sites I have accessed.

From the view point of a website owner & developer, I own sites that have a million hits a month, compared to the Amazons of this world the sites are small, compared to a lot of sites they are big. I just think of them as small sites doing a service to ordinary broadband users. The sites are copyright and have database rights. Why should I allow anyone to use the sites contents to enable them to market a commercial product from which neither the sites nor I get a return.

I do find it a insulting to be classified as "the usual people will be writing" and "same people protesting".
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Old 29-08-2010, 00:35   #32
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
As a TT customer, I have to obey TT’s terms and conditions of use of the broadband they sell me. Within those Ts&Cs, there is nothing that allows TT to monitor where I go on the web or to use the URLs I have used to accesses the sites I have accessed.

From the view point of a website owner & developer, I own sites that have a million hits a month, compared to the Amazons of this world the sites are small, compared to a lot of sites they are big. I just think of them as small sites doing a service to ordinary broadband users. The sites are copyright and have database rights. Why should I allow anyone to use the sites contents to enable them to market a commercial product from which neither the sites nor I get a return.

I do find it a insulting to be classified as "the usual people will be writing" and "same people protesting".
If you can find where the contents of your site is being used in order to market a commercial product I would welcome this information.

If we follow this to its' logical extreme (your content is, contrary to your apparent opinion, in no way being served by Talk Talk and used to generate revenue any more than web caching would be considered to do so) all ISPs should be paying all website owners for the privilege of being permitted to deliver their websites to their customers.

Still the controversy has done wonders for your traffic, and in turn ad revenue I'm sure.

---------- Post added at 23:35 ---------- Previous post was at 23:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 View Post
my understanding is that the sites are charging talk talk for access, as talk talk are making direct access requests to the websites for commercial gain (to populate a database of webpages for a new anti malware service with no gain for the websites)

the same way some newspapers are now charging to access content

you make it sound like the web sites are charging the ISP's for their customers access the websites from the ISP network, which is not correct
I'm not making it sound like that at all. I'm just noting with some amusement how content providers jump up and down to defend their 'rights' when ISPs comment on network neutrality and the potential to apply different classes of service to different websites based on their content but are all too happy to start handing out bills in this instance.

Again, presumably next will be charging ISPs for the pleasure of being able to deliver their content to their customers.

I thought this was all about privacy?

Given the costs of this exercise to content providers are virtually zero and the actual process isn't really much different to web caching from the content provider point of view, caching sites and serving them up locally is also a commercial gain to the ISPs through savings on transit and peering, and indeed is the ISP actually delivering the content in full ensuring zero ad revenue for the content provider are we getting to plain old greed now?

Or are we just getting onto that someone had the idea that this was a way to stick it to 'the man'?

So, yeah, I'd welcome some explanation why caching entire sites and in turn serving them up from caches is quite acceptable and drew no complaints while establishing a database, with no need to actually hold the content post-analysis, is so reprehensible that it demands what I can only consider juvenile action like this? We can have nice circular arguments about legality, etc, but my opinion is that the action is juvenility dressed up in a bit of contract law.

EDIT: Another thought as I was loading the dishwasher. A few browsers, most notable Internet Explorer 8, contain anti-malware features which presumably must necessitate the analysis and referencing of websites in a database. Then there are all the externals guards which use a combination of analysis and a database. You guys have started billing Microsoft, Symantec et al too for their use of your 'content' for commercial purposes, right?
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Old 29-08-2010, 16:59   #33
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Ignitionnet, I am not sure what your aim is here, to ridicule people for trying or to support the ISP.

As for the caching of websites by ISPs that would be illegal.

Do you own a website that you have designed, built and written a lot of the content for?
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Old 29-08-2010, 17:15   #34
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post

As for the caching of websites by ISPs that would be illegal.
So what does a proxy/web cache do then? A lot of ISP's use them, are they all breaking the law?
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Old 29-08-2010, 17:24   #35
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Ignitionnet, I am not sure what your aim is here, to ridicule people for trying or to support the ISP.
My aim is merely to point out the rather gaping holes in your logic. You are equating this process by Talk Talk with the use of your content for commercial purposes which obviously isn't the case. Talk Talk are in no way that I can see infringing on your rights as a content owner, they are taking the content, processing and classifying it. Per my previous post by your logic any company that does anything similar is violating your copyrights, which would require you to pursue Microsoft, Google, Symantec and others who will take user reports, analyse the reported sites, and use this data in web shield schemes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
As for the caching of websites by ISPs that would be illegal.
Then I'd suggest you contact the police, there are many ISPs that use or have used caching not to mention many private corporations running appliances.

Frankly you're wrong - if you aren't ntl were breaking the law for many years. I don't remember seeing you or any other content provider launching any kind of legal action or reporting this criminal activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Do you own a website that you have designed, built and written a lot of the content for?
Yes and it's irrelevant in any case. What I have or have not done has no bearing on this matter.

If you think you've a strong case get the court summons issued and report them to the police if you think their actions are illegal. If it helps this may be useful.

If they were copying your content verbatim and passing it off as their own I'd be totally with you, as it is they are scanning the pages their customers are visiting for malware and classifying it. If anyone should be offended it is their customers whose privacy this potentially endangers, I am at a loss as to how this prejudices you or violates your rights as a content holder.

If automated processing of content for malware / virus detection purposes is an issue does this mean if I create a program I can charge Google if their GMail service virus scans it? Does this make the scanning of any content by a virus scanning program a violation of its' copyright?

If you could address this, my main point, presented in these several ways rather than incorrectly stating caching is illegal, trying to garner sympathy as a content producer, and trying to assess why I disagree with you it'd be most appreciated.
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Old 29-08-2010, 18:23   #36
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post
Ignitionnet, I am not sure what your aim is here, to ridicule people for trying or to support the ISP.

As for the caching of websites by ISPs that would be illegal.

Do you own a website that you have designed, built and written a lot of the content for?
The Caching of websites is illegal????

Oh that's it, that has to be the most ridiculous thing I have read in this thread so far.

Hatari, with respect, if you're going to come here and make statements like that, PLEASE be prepared to back those claims with some fact. I'll help you. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...lation/18/made There is nothing in "The Electronic Commerce (EC Directive) Regulations 2002" that states that caching a website as part of a networks normal course of business is illegal.
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Old 29-08-2010, 18:31   #37
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

This may also clarify the issue (at least in the US of A).

Pinsent Curtis
Quote:
Google refers to its cache to assess whether a page matches a search term. If it had to scan and assess every live web page in real time it would be a painfully slow search engine.

Access to the feature can be found at the foot of individual search results, where the word ‘cached’ appears as a link if the service is available. Google does not run the feature for sites that have not been indexed, or where site operators have requested that their content be left uncached. Such requests can be made with meta tags, the hidden HTML of a web page that provides information for a search engine.

Google promotes its cache as a back-up service that users can access if the original page is unavailable; but it highlights each cached page as one that may not be the most up-to-date. The headline link in search results goes to the current page.

However, there has been concern as to whether this wholesale copying, storage and provision of web pages is a breach of the copyright held in those pages by authors and website operators.

According to Judge Robert C Jones of the Nevada District Court, the answer is no.
And this is from the UK's e-commerce regulations
Quote:
Caching

The main purpose behind this regulation is to give protection to businesses which cache copies of sites in the provision of their access services.

The service provider will not be liable in damages (or other remedy or criminal sanction) where the caching is "automatic, intermediate and temporary for the sole purpose of providing a more efficient service".

Further, the service provider must not modify the information and must comply with all access conditions imposed with regard to the site. This in itself means that it may be difficult to fall within this exception.

For example, many website copyright notices provide that the information may not be stored in an electronic retrieval system – which, on the face of it, precludes being cached by ISPs for the provision of a more efficient service. Obviously, whilst it will not be in most websites' interests to prevent ISPs from doing this, it nonetheless makes it difficult for the ISP to have complied with the strict obligations under the regulation. OUT-LAW's copyright notice addresses this problem by saying:

"For the avoidance of doubt, caching of this site is permitted by a service provider acting in the normal course of its business as provided for in the Electronic Commerce (EC Directive) Regulations 2002."
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Old 30-08-2010, 12:01   #38
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatari View Post

As for the caching of websites by ISPs that would be illegal.
That has got to be the most stupid ill informed statement i have ever seen posted on this forum.
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Old 30-08-2010, 19:35   #39
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by Ignitionnet View Post
Then I'd suggest you contact the police, there are many ISPs that use or have used caching not to mention many private corporations running appliances.
Let me as an web site owner say this No ISP should be caching any of my page there is code in the page that says do not cach this page, so I found a ISP doing caching of the web page then I would take that ISP to court.

Quote:
Frankly you're wrong - if you aren't ntl were breaking the law for many years. I don't remember seeing you or any other content provider launching any kind of legal action or reporting this criminal activity.
NTL obeyed the code in the pages, so no need to take them to court.
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Old 30-08-2010, 19:52   #40
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by tdadyslexia View Post
Let me as an web site owner say this No ISP should be caching any of my page there is code in the page that says do not cach this page, so I found a ISP doing caching of the web page then I would take that ISP to court.


NTL obeyed the code in the pages, so no need to take them to court.
That's not what was said. The statement was made that web caching is illegal, full stop. When obviously this isn't the case.
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Old 30-08-2010, 20:18   #41
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

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Originally Posted by tdadyslexia View Post
Let me as an web site owner say this No ISP should be caching any of my page there is code in the page that says do not cach this page, so I found a ISP doing caching of the web page then I would take that ISP to court.


NTL obeyed the code in the pages, so no need to take them to court.
It would be interesting to see how the court reacts. While you are asking that the page not be cached, the court could argue that by publishing a page with no access restrictions, You are relinquishing any right to say how that page is carried.

---------- Post added at 19:18 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon T View Post
That's not what was said. The statement was made that web caching is illegal, full stop. When obviously this isn't the case.
Indeed, caching (for all it's faults) is a fundamental part of how the web works.
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Old 30-08-2010, 21:00   #42
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdadyslexia View Post
Let me as an web site owner say this No ISP should be caching any of my page there is code in the page that says do not cach this page, so I found a ISP doing caching of the web page then I would take that ISP to court.


NTL obeyed the code in the pages, so no need to take them to court.
What was this code that ntl were obeying? I'm asking specifically for what you used that they were obeying.

Would also be interesting if you could inform me on how you know ntl were obeying this code.
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Old 30-08-2010, 21:39   #43
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

This is the code.
Code:
<meta http-equiv="Pragma" content="no-cache">
As I said NTL did obey this code, I know this with me been on NTL, thay did cache the pages before I put the code on the pages.
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Old 30-08-2010, 22:01   #44
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdadyslexia View Post
This is the code.
Code:
<meta http-equiv="Pragma" content="no-cache">
As I said NTL did obey this code, I know this with me been on NTL, thay did cache the pages before I put the code on the pages.
You do know that many caches don't read those tags, and even if they do this meta tag doesn't mean the page isn't stored in the cache as there's no obligation on caches or browsers to honour it? The HTTP standards do not set an obligation to honour this at all.

If you want to ensure the cache complies you actually need to use HTTP 1.1 cache control headers.

You may find this webpage useful as it both intelligently discusses caching, explains properly how to ensure your content isn't cached, and gives some discussion as to why obsessively setting pages to not be cached isn't necessarily a good idea.

I suspect you'll ignore that bit and start obsessively adding no-store cache-controls to your pages but *shrug* it's your bandwidth costs

It's worth noting that some hardware, which caches at the bitstream level, will cache your pages anyway. I work for a company which manufactures such hardware and neither we nor any of the other vendors in that market have had any lawsuits from any content providers, still if you want to be the first that's your prerogative.

Again, how do you know you weren't being served pages from the cache? You have just said that you know because you were on ntl - how did you know?

In a number of cases the response to that meta-tag from caches that actually honour it is to cache the data and validate with the source site in a similar manner to how they react to the cache-control no-cache header, then serve the page from disk anyway so they are storing your content.

Just a few points. There seem to be some quite gaping holes in knowledge on one side of this argument which don't really advance the issue. Few things undermine one's argument as much as making statements which are incorrect.

You're aware P2P caching is legal I take it? As are Usenet / NNTP servers? I would suggest this is rather more shaky legally thian ignoring a non-compulsory tag in website code. If Cisco / Microsoft / Yahoo / Google aren't suing ISPs for caching their IP I can't say I rate your chances too highly to be honest.
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Old 31-08-2010, 00:13   #45
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Re: TalkTalk tracking you, phorm?

First off it is a legal obligation to comply with the code specified.

Second I know NTL did not cache the page for one simple reason, the content on the page would be updated wen I uploaded new content to my web server.

Now plese stop trying to defend the undefendable.

I am not going to reply to you any more.
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