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Government & Post Election Discussion
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Old 20-11-2017, 19:18   #796
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Sanctions don't work, hasn't countless sanctions being applied proved that ?
Sanctions aren’t a magic bullet but they do put internal pressure on governments. Putin is very powerful but Russian oligarchs have sway too and they’re not going to be best pleased with having their ability to operate restricted. The Russian economy is in no great state

Quote:
We have no choice to roll over, unless you want a Nuclear war on your doorstep that would see the potential end of the World as we know it
Do you think they want nuclear war? Why are you assuming that they’ll start one? More to the point if we ‘have to roll over’ then where is your line? If they take over the rest of Ukraine do we roll over? If we have to roll over because they have nukes then they can do whatever they want.

Quote:
Russia is not the only country who meddles in other countries elections. We need to stop blaming Russia because someones side lost an election/referendum.
It’s not about them single handily swinging elections. It’s about a constant low level operation to sow discord and distrust in the West. Using Twitter to amplify very minority opinions to make them seem louder than they are. Spreading rumours and fabricated stories so that people are unsure what is and what isn’t true. As well as the more traditional leaking of stories/information to damage those that might oppose their interests.

This isn’t new and it’s not just about Trump or Brexit. In the Scottish referendum RT amongst others were spreading stories that Westminster has rigged the vote and that there were secret oil fields being kept quiet because it would make Scotland unimaginably rich. It’s not that it would have swung the vote but added fuel to the anger and division in the country and thus making us less united and harder to govern.

Last edited by Damien; 20-11-2017 at 19:24.
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Old 20-11-2017, 19:27   #797
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

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Originally Posted by pip08456 View Post
I'm of the same POV. Does that help? I'm sure there are millions of others too.
As you know, it's all about statistical significance and all that malarkey.
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Old 20-11-2017, 19:41   #798
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post

Do you think they want nuclear war? Why are you assuming that they’ll start one? More to the point if we ‘have to roll over’ then where is your line? If they take over the rest of Ukraine do we roll over? If we have to roll over because they have nukes then they can do whatever they want..
Do you not think they would not retaliate with a Nuclear strike if confronted militarily, let's say if NATO was to attack them first ?

I seem to remember Europe and the previous U.S Administration doing very little to stop Putin Annexing Crimea. Why was that do you think ?
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Old 20-11-2017, 19:59   #799
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Do you not think they would not retaliate with a Nuclear strike if confronted militarily, let's say if NATO was to attack them first ?
Yes but I am not advocating a military strike against Russia.

Quote:
I seem to remember Europe and the previous U.S Administration doing very little to stop Putin Annexing Crimea. Why was that do you think ?
The invasion was what provoked more sanctions. The invasion of Crimea cost the Russian economy badly: https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp look at what happened after 2014. It's far from 'nothing'. How many hits like that do you think Russians will take? Putin may be very powerful and immune to normal democracy but he still has to balance the interests of other powerful Russians and their people. His political capital to invade further is limited as a result.

If we had rolled over then he might have felt emboldened to take Eastern Ukraine too.

There is more than can be done. If Western Europe can help Eastern Europe reduce their dependence on Russian energy then the pressure can get worse.

There is a wide range of options between not rolling over and military action.
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Old 20-11-2017, 20:14   #800
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Yes but I am not advocating a military strike against Russia.
I don't know how you can say that when you are suggesting we don't roll over for them either ?
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Old 20-11-2017, 20:33   #801
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I don't know how you can say that when you are suggesting we don't roll over for them either ?
Because of the rest of my posts! I answered literally below the part you quoted and also in the initial post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Sanctions, investigate anyone willingly cooperating with their interference and oppose their propaganda. We're not some poor little country powerless to defend our interests. What else would you have so do? Roll over because it's Russia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
The invasion was what provoked more sanctions. The invasion of Crimea cost the Russian economy badly: https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp look at what happened after 2014. It's far from 'nothing'. How many hits like that do you think Russians will take? Putin may be very powerful and immune to normal democracy but he still has to balance the interests of other powerful Russians and their people. His political capital to invade further is limited as a result.

If we had rolled over then he might have felt emboldened to take Eastern Ukraine too.

There is more than can be done. If Western Europe can help Eastern Europe reduce their dependence on Russian energy then the pressure can get worse.

There is a wide range of options between not rolling over and military action.


---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

BTW Russia have being doing this for long before any of the recent stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation
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Old 20-11-2017, 21:07   #802
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

Can anyone post a legitimate reason why we should not investigate potential behind-the-scenes meddling by a foreign power in British elections and referendums?
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Old 20-11-2017, 21:12   #803
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Can anyone post a legitimate reason why we should not investigate potential behind-the-scenes meddling by a foreign power in British elections and referendums?
It might upset the swivel eyed loons who seem to have Theresa by the short and curlies ???
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Old 20-11-2017, 21:34   #804
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Do you not think they would not retaliate with a Nuclear strike if confronted militarily, let's say if NATO was to attack them first ?

I seem to remember Europe and the previous U.S Administration doing very little to stop Putin Annexing Crimea. Why was that do you think ?
No I don't think they would, I remember reading a future history book by a guy called general Hackett written in the seventies that accurately predicted events up to the collapse of the Soviet regime, pretty much everything in terms of dates was spot on, the only thing he got wrong was they chose Gorbachev as leader instead of a hardliner, which if they had done he had no doubt would've led to WWIII strangely though even once defeated on the battlefield and totally collapsing back home their use of nuclear weapons was very limited, bad luck Birmingham. I don't see why a mere confrontation would immediately mean a jump to nuclear weapons and for the record I'm not advocating military action either, there's better ways to skin a bear.
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Old 21-11-2017, 09:40   #805
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
So you would prefer a conflicted world that is against Putin, a consistent cold atmosphere where the potential for another cold war around the corner ?

How bizarre thinking.
Yes because he isn't for any form of democracy whatsoever.He's former KGB and has learned a lot of lessons on how to keep power while pretending to give democracy.

---------- Post added at 08:40 ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Stalin was a mass murderer, idolising him is a massive red flag, and Putin is not a friend of the West. It's naive to think you can have a amicable relationship with his Government. He wants a divided West in turmoil.

At the moment people on here are relaxed on it but he doesn't like the right in America or countries. He'll back whatever causes the most chaos so come the next election you might suddenly find the Tories are the ones that suddenly have a lot of e-mails leaked, bad news spreading on Twitter etc.
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Old 21-11-2017, 18:20   #806
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

It's revealing to learn that Kezia Dugdale has signed up for 'celebrityhood' after having been quite critical of Nadine Dorries doing the self same thing back in 2012.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8064221.html

Never mind that though eh?...
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Old 23-11-2017, 10:58   #807
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

... and Labour couldn't do any worse:

https://order-order.com/2017/11/23/m...ervicing-debt/

McDonnell quick to quote some figures but then whines about being asked about those which betray the reality of a Labour government's spending plans and the servicing costs thereof.
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Old 25-11-2017, 08:26   #808
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

Looks like Hammond's magic money tree is just for Brexit.
Quote:
Tory revolt over defence cuts
A defence minister has threatened to resign if the military is forced to impose cuts that include reducing the army to below 70,000 soldiers, The Times has learnt.

Tobias Ellwood, veterans minister, has shared with colleagues his “deep discomfort” at a list of cost-saving options faced by the Ministry of Defence.

Gavin Williamson, the new defence secretary, was shocked at what one source described as the “completely awful” headline proposals drawn up by military chiefs.

Mr Williamson, who took charge of the department from Sir Michael Fallon three weeks ago, has signalled that he is ready to take on Philip Hammond, the chancellor, if necessary. “We are beginning to try and push back,” a Whitehall source said.

Other cost-saving options include delaying the upgrade of a fleet of tanks and armoured vehicles and reducing an order for a new generation of Ajax mini- tanks.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...cuts-63vrjzsxg
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Old 25-11-2017, 12:13   #809
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

and it's so good to see Labour practising what they preach when it comes to job security and low pay:

Quote:
staff are only guaranteed 12 hours work a week, and receive an email on Friday evenings telling them how much work is available the following week.
https://order-order.com/2017/11/24/l...-30p-pay-rise/

No they're not behaving illegally but if they're demanding other employers treat and pay their staff better maybe they ought to set the example for others to follow as opposed to being just the same as those they condemn.
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Old 25-11-2017, 21:20   #810
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Re: Government & Post Election Discussion

Trouble is the Labour party is not as rich as the Tory party. Guido Fawkes news, ha, ha.
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