Russian fighter shot down by Turks

[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Osem

The way things are going, Turkey being a NATO member might turn out to have consequences just as dramatic as them being an EU member.

Oh, I don't know, they might have their uses.... Like blocking Russkie ships coming from Crimea.

Putin should think carefully before picking a fight with the Turks as they control access to the Black Sea.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by Chris

I assume you mean that's the "bigger" problem?

Oh wow. I'm only ever going to use the word Big from now on. I've made typo's but that's a right whopper
Thankfully my employment has no relation to typing.

Apologies again all!

Forgot to add. A protocol that doesn't involve trying to get visual contact with the jet is likely to go against Turkey again. The majority of countries and our own in this example tend to follow an 8 step rule involving visual contact, warning shots via tracer rounds and others.

Turkey employed one step and shoot, there's literally no justification for this. Even less so for the touted 17 second incursion.

America needn't have their two cents either. I'm sure we're all aware they trespassed into iranian water's and shot down a civilian airliner that was correctly identified as a civilian plane. After trying step one they blew it up. I'd take anything America says as worthless.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Horizon

Oh, I don't know, they might have their uses.... Like blocking Russkie ships coming from Crimea.

Putin should think carefully before picking a fight with the Turks as they control access to the Black Sea.

Oh they'll have their uses, the question is whether they outweigh the problems and challenges they create for Nato and the EU. This is all incredibly complex and God only knows where it will end.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

The Russians are not entirely blameless here. They have been warned on a number of occasions about airspace incursions. The excuse of "navigational error" does not cut it, even in a rickety old crate like an SU24 which still has modern avionics despite the age of the airframe.

Operating that close to the Turkish border, is a recipe for disaster considering primary radar is not entirely accurate.

Let's also not forget the nefarious practice of removing the standard vvs markings from Russian aircraft currently operating in Syria: there is no excuse nor justification for this. That aircraft could have been Syrian or Iranian after visual id for all those Turkish pilots knew not to mention the fact that the Russian pilots did not bother or weren't following the correct RT procedures.

So what if they are syrian, Iranian or anything else, fact is they weren't posing a threat to anyone or anything and shouldn't have been shot down imo

[Uncle Peter]

Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

The majority of countries and our own in this example tend to follow an 8 step rule involving visual contact, warning shots via tracer rounds and others.
.

Except it doesn't happen, it's not Top Gun. Documented cases?

Often the "warning shot" is actually a missle, for example: during Operation Southern Watch Iraqi pilots would often bait a shot from allied aircraft and pull a turn away knowing that they would be able to maneouvre out of range to safety. The pilots of this SU24 acted with a great deal of complacency and suffered the consequences to a degree although this does not excuse the abhorrent actions of the rebels who shot one of the airman as he parachuted to safety.

The Russians themselves take an extremely dim view of airspace violations. Cases in point: the downing of flights KAL 007 and KAL 902 followed by a series of bare faced lies to cover up their own incompetence.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

Except it doesn't happen, it's not Top Gun. Documented cases?

Often the "warning shot" is actually a missle, for example: during Operation Southern Watch Iraqi pilots would often bait a shot from allied aircraft and pull a turn away knowing that they would be able to maneouvre out of range to safety. The pilots of this SU24 acted with a great deal of complacency and suffered the consequences to a degree although this does not excuse the abhorrent actions of the rebels who shot one of the airman as he parachuted to safety.

The Russians themselves take an extremely dim view of airspace violations. Cases in point: the downing of flights KAL 007 and KAL 902 followed by a series of bare faced lies to cover up their own incompetence.

Every single Russian close encounter relatively close to British Airspace in the past few years has been met and resolved using the first two steps, Radio and Visual contact and then escorting said planes away. Turkey decided step one was sufficient for what's touted as 17 seconds of incursion. Do you think the UK would just up and down a Russian jet in it's Airspace without first establishing if there was a threat, definitely not.

The SU-24 was in a holding pattern doing 360 degree orbits along the Syrian border, virtually all sources said the longest that they might have entered Turkish airspace was 17 seconds.

There's literally no possible way to justify shooting down and a death of a pilot for 17 seconds of incursion if deemed true. It's even worse given the wreckage is miles into Syria.

The correct response is the response any normal country take to a situation like this, they shadow and escort the plane. We can cite planes being shot down by Americans, Russians or Turks all day but it doesn't make it any more justifiable. We've seen it from the American's and Soviets whom have tried to shrug it off with absolute embarrassment. This wasn't that, this was completely deliberate with absolutely no justifiable reason to shoot it down. Defence? defence from what? It was into Syria before they caught up and inexplicably shot it down without having being attacked.

The Russians themselves take an extremely dim view of airspace violations

The Turkish themselves had 2200 airspace violations in 2014 alone. It's relatively impossible to use that argument in their favour.

https://www.rt.com/news/323429-greec...ace-violations

Let's be honest here, I'm no fan of Russia but had this been a UK, US or French jet shot down by Russia/Turkey etc. This would have received world wide criticism from allied countries. It's Russia however so that's off the table.

Better yet, was this jet even downed for a tiny violation or have the Turkish tried to use this to their advantage to send a message to Russia and have some form of excuse to protect them.

I don't think there's any doubt here that Russians at the very least strayed into Turkish airspace. It's the complete farce of a response by Turkey. Even with the shootdowns you've used, the Russian response was more than that of Turkey.

In relation to Korean Airlines and you asking for documented cases, at least half the protocol was followed in your own examples...

The navigation system was set up incorrectly, so the 747 strayed into the USSR in bad sight conditions.
A US spy plane was in the region, and the two planes passed so close, that at one point they were indistinguishable for the Soviet radar operators, and they mistook them for each other.
The airliner didn't respond to radio warnings.
The fighter jet sent up had old tracer rounds loaded, which didn't light up properly.
The airliner decided to suddenly raise it's altitude just as the fighter was behind it, trying to get it's attention, which the fighter pilot interpreted as evasive maneuvers

It's still an absolute mess with regards to shooting down a 747 that had no weapons to cause any major damage.

Justifiable would be entering deep Turkish Airspace conducting missions or something else relevant. Flying over the tip of Turkey for 17 seconds is something you'd get an ear bashing for given Turkey knew exactly what the Russian SU's were there for and knew without doubt they were never under any threat.

[Uncle Peter]

Syria is an active combat zone (the UK isn't and neither is Greece). The Turks are free to implement whatever rules of engagement they see fit. They will have brought that SU24 down because they fully intended to bring it down. Whether or not there was a political or military motivation behind this incident is wide open for debate.

Have the debate about what's justified and what isn't justified until the cows come home. Let Putin join the debate while he tosses bricks around in his glass house. The person who can actually make sense out of what's happening on the ground today in Syria and what each of the protagonists political goals are is the person who stands the best chance of resolving the conflict.