Cable Forum - View Single Post

andy_m · 06-05-2012, 17:58

To steal something, and for it to therefore become "stolen", you have to "dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another, with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". This is the definition of theft, as per the Theft Act 1968.

What this means is that, if when you take something from somebody else you have already decided that you're not giving it back and are going to do with it what you like, then you are committing theft. However, it also means that, if it was your intention at the time you acquired the goods to use them in the correct manner, and only became your intention later to do with them what you like, then you haven't committed theft and the box cannot be considered "stolen".

So, with regard to Virgin STB's, if you sign a contract with them in order to get a TiVo with the sole intention of sticking it on ebay, then you steal it. If, however, you sign a contract with Virgin to get a TiVo which you intend to use in the proper way, but at a later date decide to stick it on ebay, then you don't steal it because at the time you appropriated the box you did so honestly, and you didn't have the intention to permanently deprive Virgin of it - you only formed this later. You will probably open yourself up to a civil claim from Virgin for the cost of the box and breach of contract, but you haven't committed the criminal offence of theft, and the box, therefore, is not "stolen property" as defined by the Theft Act.

Let's be honest, looking at VM TiVo's on ebay, they're going for less than £20. Nobody is going to commit to a 12 or 18 month contract with VM and pay the monthly subs involved in the advance hope of realising less than £20 minus paypal charges - these are in the main boxes that people have failed to send back after their contract has finished.

With regard to Peter's suggestion that the OP was "receiving stolen goods", I assume he is referring to the actual offence of handling stolen goods, again defined in the Theft Act. This lists several possible different ways of committing this offence, but for our purposes its enough to say that the offence is committed where a person, knowing or believing them to be stolen, accepts stolen goods or assists in disposing of them. That's a simplified version of a quite complicated offence, but I think it's quite clear that the OP cannot have committed this offence, for two reasons:

1. I think his post makes it obvious that he wasn't aware that you couldn't buy 2nd hand TiVo's - anybody who had done ANY research into the matter would know it wouldn't work and the reason why. He can't be accused that he "knew or believed" that a 2nd hand TiVo would be stolen.

2. For the reasons outlined above, the TiVo isn't stolen anyway.

06-05-2012, 17:58	#12
andy_m cf.mega poster Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: North-West Kent Services: VIP Posts: 2,887	Re: 2nd hand tivo boxes To steal something, and for it to therefore become "stolen", you have to "dishonestly appropriate property belonging to another, with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". This is the definition of theft, as per the Theft Act 1968. What this means is that, if when you take something from somebody else you have already decided that you're not giving it back and are going to do with it what you like, then you are committing theft. However, it also means that, if it was your intention at the time you acquired the goods to use them in the correct manner, and only became your intention later to do with them what you like, then you haven't committed theft and the box cannot be considered "stolen". So, with regard to Virgin STB's, if you sign a contract with them in order to get a TiVo with the sole intention of sticking it on ebay, then you steal it. If, however, you sign a contract with Virgin to get a TiVo which you intend to use in the proper way, but at a later date decide to stick it on ebay, then you don't steal it because at the time you appropriated the box you did so honestly, and you didn't have the intention to permanently deprive Virgin of it - you only formed this later. You will probably open yourself up to a civil claim from Virgin for the cost of the box and breach of contract, but you haven't committed the criminal offence of theft, and the box, therefore, is not "stolen property" as defined by the Theft Act. Let's be honest, looking at VM TiVo's on ebay, they're going for less than £20. Nobody is going to commit to a 12 or 18 month contract with VM and pay the monthly subs involved in the advance hope of realising less than £20 minus paypal charges - these are in the main boxes that people have failed to send back after their contract has finished. With regard to Peter's suggestion that the OP was "receiving stolen goods", I assume he is referring to the actual offence of handling stolen goods, again defined in the Theft Act. This lists several possible different ways of committing this offence, but for our purposes its enough to say that the offence is committed where a person, knowing or believing them to be stolen, accepts stolen goods or assists in disposing of them. That's a simplified version of a quite complicated offence, but I think it's quite clear that the OP cannot have committed this offence, for two reasons: 1. I think his post makes it obvious that he wasn't aware that you couldn't buy 2nd hand TiVo's - anybody who had done ANY research into the matter would know it wouldn't work and the reason why. He can't be accused that he "knew or believed" that a 2nd hand TiVo would be stolen. 2. For the reasons outlined above, the TiVo isn't stolen anyway.