Crisis in the NHS
 

'Humanitarian crisis' in NHS hospitals, warns Red Cross - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38538637

Sounds like a Third World country. We're now depending on volunteers from the Red Cross and seriously ill people are left waiting on trollies in corridors.

This has been coming, we all know it has. Can't totally blame politicians as we voted them in and know they all lie about the NHS at election time. When anyone suggests paying more tax for the NHS we all say it's a great idea, then vote another way.

There aren't quick solutions but we could:-
- Cancel tax cuts for the rich.
- All pay more
- recruit more Drs and nurses and somehow make it up with junior Drs. They aren't the enemy and many are now leaving for other countries once trained.The plans for a 7 day NHS are laughable at the moment.
- Accept there are some minor treatments we might have to pay something towards if we can afford it.
- fine/prosecute those that are wasting A&Es time. E.g. drunks.

Still, we can always look forward to the cash bonanza for the NHS promised by Brexiters. :rolleyes:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Perhaps educating generation snowflake that a simple bruise or cut just needs a bit of self administered first aid rather than an ambulance to A&E.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You've got it in one, its education people.

Alot of it comes down to GP's, the are busy, people don't want to wait to think its better to go to A&E or phone an ambulance. Alot of issues people can self medicate, they need to start been stricter and charging people for wasting time at GP and Ambulances. Ambulance calls need to be targeted more, some know the system and key words to get an ambulance now.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

No you are not turning this topic in to one of your pathetic brexit bashing sessions.

If you want to blame the reason the NHS is in the state it is, blame the foreign freeloaders, which this government is now doing something about by introducing passport checks, to ensure people who are not entitled to free healthcare while visiting here, now pay for it.

Too little, too late IMO, we have let far too many people from other EU states, who don't work and scrounge on our benefit system, settle here, straining our NHS healthcare to breaking point.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Although the focus is on A&E at the moment. That doesn't explain the failing in other areas of the NHS. e.g. we now have the poorest cancer survival rates in Western Europe. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/heal...rn-Europe.html
We have chronically under invested.

---------- Post added at 12:05 ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 ----------

Most of those foreign ' freeloaders' are working and paying taxes. Many of them are working in the NHS, and we are dependent on them. Most of the scroungers are home grown.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

There is also this which will come to us all in time sadly which is putting a huge strain on our NHS now and well into the future

https://www.england.nhs.uk/2015/02/catherine-thompson/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...or-bruce-keogh

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Most of those are not at all. I am on about the many freeloaders who do NOT work and no we definitely are not dependent on the immigrants, who come here to ride the benefit gravy train and then drain NHS resources to boot.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

This.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

GPs get new contracts with more money. Then in no time GP services taper off and waiting times increase once more.

Lots of GP services around here are now payable or have been withdrawn. So people with medical problems do what they perceive as the next option.... they turn up at Accident and Emergency. When it's not an accident or emergency.

"At the door" triage is what is needed. Don't even let them in the door if their case does not warrant it.

Plus it's time that access to the NHS, except in real emergency cases, was restricted to those entitled to it unless full payment was arranged and actually collected.

Training more nurses and doctors, tying them to a minimum period of service to the NHS, would help too.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Some folks obviously need reminding that NHS spending is determined by the government of the time, not what a referendum campaign decided to put on the side of a bus one summer day.

There's no way any migrants who're earning anything like the minimum/living wage are paying sufficient tax to be net economic contributors to UK PLC. Any public services they receive, including the NHS, are subsidised by the rest of us it's just a question of by how much.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I'll think you find in the NHS we are dependent on immigrants.The main reason people come to the UK is work, many if them doing vital jobs in care and cleaning which we won't lower ourselves to do.

You want to have a read of this report Mick, page 5.
http://researchbriefings.parliament....mmary/CBP-7445
Non-UK born nationals are less likely to be claiming out of work benefits, than those that are UK born. Irritating aren't they, facts?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

They are not facts when language like 'less likely' is being used, in other words they don't have a bloody clue. Stop deluding us with bull crap as usual.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Why should immigrants be claiming out of work benefits at all? If they've come here to work and can't do so then they should go home.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The figures are in the parliamentary report Mick, have a read.The problem is the figures on immigrants don't fit yours and others stereotyped tabloid sound bites.

The NHS would be finished tommorrow without immigrants. They aren't to blame for the problems in the NHS. We are - unrealistic funding given the ageing population, wasting NHS/Drs with minor issues and not giving healthcare workers the status and respect they deserve. Money isn't the only issue here, hospitals are losing staff faster than they can recruit.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

As I've said before over the christmas period a lot of people from india and pakistan come to visit families here and while here they go to the nhs and get health issues sorted this is not just the cost of treatment and medications many of them don't speak a word of english and need help there that costs money. I really think it's time for a national ID card which amongst other things would give access to nhs services and put an end to the healthcare tourism that's rampant these days and is no longer affordable.

We also need to stop the knee jerk calls of racism when anyone attempts to highlight the problems from non uk citizens. We can't afford it anymore and it isn't fair to the wider public.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Absolute rubbish .The problems with the NHS are varied .I'm sure that immigrants play their part in overloading the NHS the same as they do with other services but so do our own non workers and our own elderly but the real reason is that we simply don't pay enough for it .Instead of having real wages so people can live and pay taxes to support themselves and the services we want we have pitiful wages where people work and receive benefits .
When people are as narrow minded as you are it's easy to keep blaming one section of society and avoiding the real issues .The only way the NHS will survive is if we actually pay for it and with a rising and aging population ,increased costs ,better technology and more advanced medicine in general the costs are only ever going to rise regardless of whether we are in Europe or not

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Quite right. The NHS has obviously began to see the problem with foreign free loaders but they should have introduced the new measures years ago.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Sounds to me like health tourists play only a minimal role in the nhs' problems. Seems to me to be deliberate government idiological policy to run it into the ground and then tell us the only way to save it is for private companies to run it

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...tually-9307953

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The NHS is an unsustainable behemoth the way it currently set up, managed and funded.

Throwing more money at it is not the answer, you could treble/ quadruple/ quintuple it's funding and it still wouldn't be enough.

It needs to be taken out of government control and run by an independent body, with government oversight. Purchasing and procurement should be centralised so the buying power of the NHS is used. We should be telling the drug manufacturers what we're going to pay for their product, if they want to sell to us, if not we go elsewhere (for the drugs where that is possible) for other drugs we should be able to get great deals in return for volume, not play postcode lotteries.

A clear descriptor of what is available on the NHS, charges should be levied for certain elective procedures where people have the funds.

Complete ban on foreign nationals getting free health unless it is in an emergency.

There is loads that could be done, if only we had a government with the balls to it. Problem is whenever you say NHS reform everybody freaks out over it. It's some sacred cow that can't be touched no matter how dysfunctional it is.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Apparently Jeremy Hunt has gone into hiding. Suspect he will reappear with his private sector chums to see what mega profits they can make. All going to plan for Jeremy.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7514811.html

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I will be totally honest with members. Some remarks about the cleaning work etc etc that some people wont do, but others will.

The NHS I in crisis, as some party, wont put money into it. And stop bloody freeloaders cming here. And using it for free.

I have worked in hospitals as part of cleaning contractors. And our wage was low. And yet hospitals were paying agency staff to come in and do the cleaning.

I was in an AE one night, after my wife was nearly killed in a car crash. And l can tell you that l was fuming.
My mother in law had to be cut out of a car, my wife was driving. As the MIL was taking straight into AE, my wife who had whiplash BUT walked int the hospital. Was told to wait in the waiting room.

As l approached the reception - l had just arrived from work. There were several people with MINOR alilmets such as a cough, cuts to fingers. And another young lad who was RUNNING round the waiting room. And my wife was in agony.

I approached the recetionship to ask WHY, my wasn't seen yet, as she was in the same car as my MIL. She was told to wait.

Have a guesss who was seen first. It wasn't my wife. She had to wait FOUR HOURS. By then everyone else had gone.

The NHS has great staff. BUT, management has to change, get rid of the freeloaders. IF you don't have a NHS number, you don't get seen, simple as that.

I have been ashamed of this country, at the way it pussyfoots around people that use our Hospitals like it was aa hotel.

And no l don't believe that we should all pay extra tax, or the service go private.

It made me laugh when l read an article from Joker Corbyn today. He demand answers about it from Miss. May.

She will tell him to shut up. And he will cower like a kid in a corner. He is NT tough enough to challenge her on anything.

We need to bring in Hospital matrons, who who tell patients, if they need treatment at hospital or not.

About 12 months ago. I couldn't get a GP appointment, as l was getting chest pains and tingling in my fingers. Went to West Middlesex Hospital. As the waiting room was busy and full up. They sent me back to the GP for assessment.

Two days later, l collapsed at work and rushed to hospital. Luckily, it was discovered nothing seriously wrong with my heart.

hospital's are NOT a placed to go if you have a minor problem. Go to the chemist and ask them. They have given me loads of advice.

Sorry to go on. But it gets my goat, when people knock the NHS. We need funding each year. We need the money back from people that abuse the system. But that chance is very slim

I bet if everyone on this forum checked there local newspapers, and ask how much money was wasted on this year, as hospitals cannot recoup the money that people from OVERSEAs, and that includes the Migrants already here. it will run into millions.

I believe ONE HOPSITAL TRUST LAST YEAR tried to recoup £500.00 which was owed. Couldn't because, they didn't have the proper details of those patients.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Blimey five hundred quid, things must be bad

You're in good company, although as a general rule I've found the position oposite to Arthur's is usually the correct one to adopt, based mainly on things like facts, reality, that sorta thing

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Well, my sorta thing is based on experience in working in the healthcare system, so your general rule kinda sucks.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It's served me well after all these years, it is a general rule though. Care to share your experiences, figures on a sheet or in a newspaper are easily manipulated so it'd be good to hear first hand of the coal face from someone who deals with it on a day to day basis.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Sorry, not a bean counter so don't do figures but it sorta goes like this.... Foreign freeloaders come to visit, get free healthcare then go back home and then they tell their family and friends to come get their freebies too.

Never heard of the term Health Tourism? : https://fullfact.org/health/health-t...-and-who-pays/

So yeah, um, Health Tourism is big issue leaving the NHS a £2bn black hole in unpaid and unrecoverable charges each year and that cost is rising. Hence why very soon, people will need to take their passport with them when they go to hospital to prove they are entitled to free healthcare and receive treatment. Passport checking is already happening but it's not full scale as of yet.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Funnily enough I have heard of the term health tourist, I used it myself in post 18 when I was questioning the professor who quoted the 2 billion figure and you don't need a passport to visit A&E which is where most of the costs are incurred, which even your link states doesn't cost 2 billion

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...2&postcount=18

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

What about the impact of an ageing population? The obesity crisis? According to this: http://www.itv.com/news/2016-03-21/f...besity-crisis/ deal with the problems and complications of diabetes costs 10% of the NHS budget alone.

Health tourism should obviously be addressed but even at £1.8 billion it's not top of the list of problems facing the NHS. According to this dealing with the effects of binge drinking costs £3.5 billion a year not including dealing with any long term effects of it either.

Again it's something we could do to help the budget but it's not the cause of the problems. Not everything is the fault of immigrants/foreigners.

---------- Post added at 10:22 ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 ----------

As for needing immigrants in the NHS well we probably do to an extent: https://fullfact.org/immigration/imm...-and-nhs-staff. They make up 5% of the overall staff but they're over represented in the higher roles making up 10% of doctors. That's only EU migrants. We probably do need those 10% of Doctors....

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I never mentioned A&E, I said going to hospital to receive treatment, you know the planned stuff. It still leaves a black hole either way.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Here's a decent article from the Independent ,they ask 4 senior managers in the NHS the causes of the current crisis .As it happens not one of them say that health tourism is the cause .One of the biggest issues is that the extra money given by the government isn't reaching the front line like GP's .Unless we invest heavily in GP services to treat minor ailments then the next port of call will be the nearest A&E center .Maybe instead of focusing on a 7 day NHS as a whole going for a 7 day GP service to start with may be the way to go

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 ----------


To receive the type of treatment you are talking about you will go via a GP referral or from the A&E .So you should be talking about the E&A

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Again, like Mr K, you're bringing in an argument that did not exist, yes we need the skilled migrants, but I said about the migrants that come here from other EU nations, who DONT work and just milk the system and the NHS, we don't need those and there are many of them, I'm not going to be so gullible and accept what some parliamentary report says.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Nobody said we did want then .The issue is you are blaming "foreign freeloaders" your words ,and a very all encompassing phrase that is meaningless.Facts simply do not support your assertions that "foreign freeloaders" are to blame.The reasons are many and varied with "foreign freeloaders"playing a very small part .What about home grown freeloaders ,falling tax intake ,aging population,obesity,

You mean it doesn't agree with your assertions so it's wrong :rolleyes:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You were perfectly happy to link to Full Fact just posts ago....

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Yes I was. And ?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Why do you trust them when it backs your argument and not when it doesn't?

But even the article you linked to doesn't back your initial assertion that:

£1.8billion would help the NHS but it's far from the reason it is in the state it is. As I said even dealing with binge drinking cost a lot more.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Strange that they keep saying there is a shortage of available staff to employ, but somehow large sums of money would solve that non-existence.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Trust who and at what other time have I said I do/don't trust them ?

It most certainly does Damien, over 2 billion quid being spent, is a lot of money on people that don't even live here !



And that needs to be dealt with, no argument there, but we need to deal with foreign free loaders as well.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Here

Hold on ,the NHS has always been available for everyone to get emergency treatment even if they don't live here .The other point you seem to conveniently avoid is that a lot of these health tourists are actually British ex pats who have moved and live abroad but return to use the NHS .

Including the British ones? or just the ones you don't like ?

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

Presumably they mean trained staff and the extra money is to train the extra staff and possibly bring them to this country

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Precisely what I was thinking. :)

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Well Mrs K is on the front line in the NHS. It's is a deeply unattractive place to work at the moment, staff are leaving in droves. Not enough of everything - time/resources etc., and a public who seem to take it for granted and resent those that have come from abroad to treat them.

She's been to several leaving events for colleagues escaping over the last few months. Most of them junior Dr's who see better working conditions in places like Australia. Under-investment is an issue, but the conditions and recognition we give those who work in the NHS is another. Treating Junior Drs like striking miners wasn't the cleverest move; true the strike is over, but there are better offers elsewhere, so they are just leaving. There is a grand privatisation plan and the NHS is being deliberately run into the ground to make that acceptable to the public. However privatisation won't help if there aren't enough qualified staff left in the country.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

So how many ex-pats are returning?

How many years does it take to train staff? If they're complaining of a lack of qualified staff, then they are looking as they already have the money to employ them.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Allowing open borders to unskilled / benefit scrounging EU migrants will not solve that problem, at all will it?

Mr Hunt has much to answer for, many want him gone and were very surprised Mrs. May kept him on as Health Secretary in her Cabinet reshuffle.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Yes Jeremy Hunt does have a lot to answer for.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/01/13.jpg

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Can we reduce that image please Denphone - it's a good one, but it is too big.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Being a uneducated man could you tell me how to do that Mick.:dunce:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Here ya go

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/01/13.jpg

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Thank you Damien.:)

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

So yes, I am in agreement that the government has much to do, I do not just solely blame Unskilled migration for the NHS problems. Yes, I agree there is also many issues with our own British born residents, obesity, alcoholism, even the aging population. A lot of the beds are taken up by elderly people, waiting to be either sent home and cared for there, or waiting to go in to a care home.

The problems have not just suddenly appeared over night, they have been gradually getting worse and the problem has just been routinely ignored until where we are right now.

Also, the opposition does not get away with the blame either. Where is her Majesty's official opposition party ? Ok Corbyn has stated, Mrs. May, needs to answer for the crisis, but it is not enough, why are they not asking the most basic questions and demanding answers ? Call me ignorant but I had to look up who the current Shadow Health Secretary was (It's Jon Ashworth). Where is he? Why is he not putting forward an urgent question?

With such weak opposition, the government will just plough on regardless and while I support the Tories and voted for them in the last two General Elections, I still expect a strong opposition to keep them in line, ask the questions that need to be asked and that is not happening under the current leadership but that's a whole different topic.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Health tourisim isn't regarded by most in the NHS as a major problem because overall it isn't it occurs in small clusters that have a devastating impact at a local level in my town there are few if any health tourists using our local NHS services. Go twenty miles up the road to Leicester and it's a very real problem and creates many many problems not just in terms of treatment costs but the number of staff that have quit in the last five years because they are fed up of having a family gang berate them and physically intimidate them, I've seen it personally many times and have seen looks of fear on the faces of staff.

Of course it isn't the whole cause of the problem but it is one i also agree that we need to drastically alter things in relation to alcohol which is a growing cost to the NHS as well as to society in general and I'd like a government to take a tobacco level stance in relation to alcohol. Something like the NHS never has a single cause for it's problems but we have to start accepting them all and dealing with them rather then the way things have happened in the past where everyone argues over which is the bigger problem and never addresses any of them.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Yes but according to your own link not that much of a black hole, one more the size of 200- 300 million or 0.3% of the nhs budget and the reason I mentioned A&E is because that's where the vast majority of the cash goes and you don't need a passport to visit there, this is all from your link btw, I'm surprised you're not more aware of its content

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Mick doesn't do facts apparently

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Well, clearly you are not because you have not even got the figures right, it's over £2 Billion for everything, not 300 million. :rolleyes:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

2 billion for treating people like British expats, foreign students paying through the nose already to be here etc etc, the actual figure for health tourists is according to your link 110- 280 million or 0.3% of the budget, it's all there in the very first paragraph of your link and as I've said repetedly the vast majority of this money is spent in A&E where we don't ask for passports.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You are not reading it right, check again.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

The fee for health tourists - those who come here to use the NHS - is 110- 280 million according to that link:

The £1.8 billion is that plus everything else. People who are here and end up needing treatment.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Many of those that turn up at A&E know about their condition before they came here.
The list is rather extensive.

So many of the health tourists use backdoor methods or just simple fraud to avoid being included in the non-UK figures in the first place.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

No need Damien did it for me

They are included in the figures, it goes back to Mick saying some hospitals are going to start checking passports but I said it wouldn't do any good as most present themselves at A&E where there are no checks passport or otherwise

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

They are not included in the figures. If they are easily getting hold of an NHS number, legally or illegally, then they are not in the figures. Likewise with those deemed an emergency, but have just got of the place. If just one hospital is out of pocket by £4 million, what would that total figure look like if you scale it up by just 100 hospitals?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Lets put everything to one side.

The NHS is a fantastic Service, with great working staff from Consultants, Nurses and Rds.

THIS country can supply most of the staff for Hospitals. We do NOT need to rely on Migrants working in hospitals on cheap Labour to save Hospital management money.

The savings can come from pen pushers that go round the hospitals making sure that Nurse Barbie or Dr Doolittle is working ok.

Get a Matron to run the Hospital. Get rid of hospital Management who are simply ripping of the NHS.

The Matron would oversea what Nursing staff is needed for each ward. Go back to the days when the Hospital did there own cooking for patient meals.
Let the Hospital run there OWN car parking. Get rid of the Private companies that are ripping off the patients. The Matron would oversea Hospital cleaners - employed directly employed by the Hospital NOT companies.

Agency Nursing cost a forcing. Matron to call on the Nursing Colleges for staff in there final year of training. Most Nurses that are being trained, go overseas due to higher wages.

Hospital trusts are a disgrace. They are NOT thinking of patient care. They are thinking of what money they can save. For there annual holiday.

The NHS needs millions from the Government. And they should get it.

As treatment costs go up each year.
If patients want private care. They have to pay 60% up front. And that will change there mind about skipping the country and getting out and leaving the NHS with a big bill

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Do you seriously believe the NHS is in the state it is in because of use by non-UK citizens or are you just trolling?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Absolutely ! Amongst the other thing I said as well that you have selectively ignored. Whose trolling again ? :rolleyes:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

That's interesting, so it's literally just a number, nothing else is attached to it, no other information at all, they key it in and that's it, no medical records or personal details pop up, nothing?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Good news 'H'unt has been found!
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y_to_clipboard
He's urgently tackling the situation by fiddling the 4 hour A&E target figures so they look better. Good to see he's on the ball.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

A big problem here is that simply. The NHS MUST stop giving free aid to every tom, dick and harry.

IF, you don't have the funds and ont have an address. then you DONT GET FREE treatment.

IF, you are homeless. Then you can get treatment via charities. That might be cruel. But the Tories are being cruel to everyone in the UK. By cutting funds to GPs, local Councils etc etc.
Local Government are at fault for local GPs cuts, to Social Care and Day Care Centres. They are closing them down all the time.

What these Day Centres can provide is GP service. Which would solve an OAP that is in Hospital. They would come out of hospital, straight to a day Care centre under the direction of a GP.

It is totally wrong that Local Councils say they don't have any money. Hounslow Coucil for example must make thusand of pounds EACH week from Parking and fines.

When l go to The Blenhiem Centre on a Bank Holiday, people still put money in for a ticket.

They claim that this money goes for the upkeep of the car park. What painting lines, you can get the Unemployed to do that as part og the TRAINING.

I have been on these courses. And they are NOT worth going to.

One of the roads near The Blenhiem Centre, was FREE parking. Council decided in there wisdom to put 15 parking meters there.

ALL this money can go into GP services on the borough. I went to a GP surgery on Friday. And it was empty. And yet, every surgery on a Monday, you cannot get an appointment.

Mr Hunt has said that the 'FOUR HOUR SLOT is only for the serious ill paitents. So if you end up in Hospital with a Heart Attack, which has to be dealt with 'within the golden hour' you might not get seen, if you start to get better.

I think the whole matter with the NHS stinks. And all this to save bloody money by the Tories, so they can upkeep there Private Health Care companies.

There was a Dr on BBC this morning, she came from Syria, and said it was the worst decision by coming to the NHS. And it should be made private.

And the BBC interviewer had a go at the Consultant, saying that he 'maybe' lying hat that crisis, isn't a crisis. Typical BBC.

---------- Post added at 22:18 ---------- Previous post was at 22:16 ----------

http://news.sky.com/story/has-health...arget-10723517

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Sadly Mr Hunt is as slippery and odious as ever while the NHS burns before him.:(:td:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Apparently the A&E crisis is all our fault and we need to have an "honest discussion"(that's government speak for "we know we cocked it up but we don't have a clue what to do so basically you're screwed") .Now i can understand that some people go when they shouldn't go for minor ailments and so on but in some cases it is the only way to get any kind of treatment because doctors surgeries are full (dependent on where you live) walk in centers are next to useless because most don't have doctors in them and the phone service(whatever it's name is this week) simply refers people to A&E because the people on the other end are not doctors or nurses,not to mention a lot of A&E centers have been closed and the services concentrated in one area without upgrading the staff levels and funding .

Perhaps a bus full of money from the EU is in order

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Well people do need to stop abusing A&E, but very often its because they can't get a GP appointment. Swings and roundabouts, plug one funding hole, another leaks.
We do need to have a serious discussion about how we fund the NHS and what services it provides, as costs are going to keep increasing. We're going to have to pay more whatever, each one of us, and we have to accept that. Half the problem is people say they are willing to pay more but when but comes to them personally paying, they look and vote another way

However I suspect the Government has a privatisation agenda on this. Not to worry as none of the cabinet would touch the NHS with a barge pole.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I heard a snatch of a programme on Radio 4 this lunchtime about the subject. The points that came across to me were:
* It's the worst crisis for 12 years. Normally the NHS catches up on itself over the Summer but it didn't so has gone into the Winter in a bad state.
* Scotland is coping relatively better because it has integrated social care with the NHS.
* Although funding has been increasing, demand has outpaced the growth in funding stretching services.

Ultimately, we need to fund the NHS more as we're all living longer. This could be through increased general taxation/NI or at the point of delivery. This is a big issue and I wonder if all political parties will come together on this?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You might want to check the report though. That has a few facts.

Personally, I don't think the problems for the NHS can be boiled down to one thing.

There are several problems facing the NHS:

1. Privatisation. Specifically PFI. It might look like a good way to pay for new hospitals (as initially it costs the taxpayer little) but the companies financing the hospitals are going to want payment and they often take this in the form of extremely high interest rates, or preferential treatment with regard to any contracts involved in running the hospital, which they can use to further fleece the NHS.
2. Age. We are living a lot longer than we used to. With longer living comes higher medical bills. There are more old people to pay for, and fewer people of working age to pay for them. It's a nice idea that the money you pay in National Insurance is being put into an account to pay for your own medical care, but it isn't.
3. Too many people going to hospital who don't need it. This is partly due to how busy GPs are, and I think partly due to misinformation and lazyness. We feel a little bit ill from time to time. Some people, even if they have a minor ailment that can be cured with a few days rest go to the GP. Some even go to A&E, when they would be better served going home, taking a painkiller and sleeping.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It doesn't look as though the Red Cross weren't exaggerating. It's not really even been a bad winter weather wise, thankfully.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38570960

It would be a start if the Government properly acknowledged the crisis and stopped trying to play politics, which they are bad at anyway. Jeremy Hunt seems to have gone AWOL again...

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

You don't want to highlight the problems in something you are trying to sell....

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

This.

One of the initiatives of the last labour government. These contracts can be 20-30 years and the total cost is eye-watering.

But of course you'll never hear a left-wing luvvie slagging off good old Brown/Blair for "privatising" the NHS :rolleyes:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

l wish the bloody politics was taken out of the NHS IMO.

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Indeed. That's why we need a political consensus on it but it's such a big issue that most governments will fudge it and leave it for the next administration.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

People always want to take the politics out of [something] but I fail to see how that really works. Politics is how we decide these things. People vote governments in or out in part on their performance managing things like the Health Service.

If anything taking politics out of these areas is a way cowardly politicians try to avoid being accountable for their responsibilities. Hence when we have situations like Southern where the government can point at the companies and the unions are say it's nothing to do with them when they not only gave them the contract but stuck their oar in on how it should be managed - i.e get rid of the guards.

Nah, the government is responsible for running the health service and they're accountable for it as a result.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

What makes me laugh Mr K is he tells everybody to go to their surgery to see the doc where for many its pretty well impossible to get a quick appointment rather then go to A&E but yet he took his children to A&E rather then see his local GP.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

How do you enforce this? Say someone is involved in a major traffic accident. They do not own the car, are unconscious, dying and do not carry any identifying documents (a lot of people don't). Risk them dying while you check their ID via DNA swabs (assuming their DNA is on record)?

And who funds the charities who, lets not forget, are being hit by the same cuts?.
You are right, the NHS is providing care to a lot of people it shouldn't have to, but who is going to pay for the day care centres? Remember, Councils are being affected by the cuts too.
They probably do. They also have to spend thousands of pounds each week providing things like libraries and schools, as well as things like dustbin collection, sports grounds and street lighting.

Actually, having done book keeping for a local group of leisure centres, I was surprised at how much it *does* actually cost to maintain a carpark. It isn't only the painting. There is also the costs involved in maintaining/renewing the surface, maintaining the ticket machines as well as security and lighting. That said, Bromley Council (my local council) did make a hefty profit from the car park fees.
Not really sure of the relevance.

Do people live in the road? The council may have put the meters in to help them? They would likely have permits. I live in a road near shops, and believe me, parking in my road during the day is almost impossible. I have a drive, so it doesn't affect me usually, but it is a major PITA if I have workmen in.

If that is the case, surely the GPs can do something about it? It's them that issue the appointments.
I am fairly certain someone suffering a heart attack would be assessed almost immediately and rushed to the top of the list.
That's just it, throwing more money at the NHS isn't going to solve the problem. I don't doubt that the NHS does need more resources, but they have to be directed in the right areas. Throwing more money at it blindly is either going to help the shareholders in the NHS's various contractors, or it's going to ensure that the money is wasted.

The Tories (and I include Tony Blair and Gordon Brown in this) are just interested in farming stuff off to contractors (possibly looking toward their own future when they cease to be MPs), and Labour just seem interested in blindly throwing money at it.

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Good argument. I still think some kind of consensus over an increase in general taxation may be agreed for the NHS though.

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Yes, that's a supreme irony but it doesn't surprise me that the usual suspects overlook that fact when they're blaming the Tories and everyone else for everything that's wrong in the NHS.

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Best way here IMHO would be to roll NI into income tax. This would have several benefits: The starting threshold for NI clobbers the very low paid, making this the same as income tax would help them. Those who contract their work and avoid paying NI could be bought into the system particularly if the amount they can pay themselves by dividends is limited.

Then there's no upper ceiling to income tax unlike NI (£150K IIRC) so some extra revenue could be generated from those on higher pay to put toward the NHS.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

It's not just the NHS in "crisis". French radio just said that 6 out of 10 French hospitals are now unable to take more patients due to the Flu epidemic that has appeared in Europe. And the Flu Jab seems to be totally ineffective... again.

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

But this would prevent HMG from keeping Income Tax tax down (for propaganda purposes) whilst coining-it-in with hikes in NI. :dunce:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

That approach would also make admin easier for employers and HMRC. But how it would go down with the electorate would be another matter as people might associate it with being worse off.

---------- Post added at 12:38 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Maybe get rid of NI and introduce another proportionate tax called simply "NHS" which works like tax and not NI so doesn't penalise the worse off?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I wouldn't support it. I don't think that many people would.

Doesn't matter how much money you throw at it, it will never be enough the way it is currently run.

It needs to be completely re-imagined.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Sort of a National Health Service Insurance Tax?

They could call that "National Insurance". :dunce:

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Trouble is that the liberal establishment has spent the last 20 or so years brainwashing people that the state should be responsible for more and more aspects of their lives and their wellbeing. It's not hard to see why more are now going to A&E or trying to see their GP for minor problems.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

In the last 16 years despite my serious ongoing illnesses l have been to A&E once and that was because it was on a Saturday night when one cannot see a GP while l see my GP every few months because that is what she told me to do because of my ongoing illnesses which have been prevalent in the last 16 years.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Good for you :tu: I'm much the same. I understand (from people who work in the NHS) that many aren't.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Yes l think we all know taking by taking party politics out of it they are both as bad as each other in that regard as they both lie and obfuscate on a regular basis about the real state of the NHS as there are many reasons why the NHS is under numerous intolerable pressures as has been explained by several posters in this thread as there is certainly no way the NHS can continue in its current state as we need a NHS that is fit and ready for the next few decades and beyond so there needs to be real debate and consultation on how our beloved NHS can move forward but the vexed question is how do we go about it.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Our local hospital has a drop-in clinic about 200 yards from the ER. Waiting times are brutal though. Staff levels keep dropping.....

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I have to be basically dying before i'll make a GP appointment and the usual wait means i'm over most things by the time i'd get an appointment so it works for me. My GP is constantly telling me he should see me more often due to my issue's but we compromise i promise to see him once a year and that i'll make an appointment if anything gets too serious but on the odd occasion i go to the surgery it's always full and most rarely get in at their time. A lot of people do seem to go for the daftest reasons though and for things people over a certain age seem to not feel warrants a GP visit there is definately an age gap issue with regards attitudes.

I do think it's time to enforce financial penalty's for not attending appointments as that's another problem i see and talking to staff it's a daily issue. I don't pretend to have the answers to the problems the NHS faces beyond the obvious ones but hopefully we will get someone that does have some if not most answers but that isn't jeremy hunt as low standard as many of our politicians are he's managed to set the bar lower everytime it counts.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Completely agree with this .I would accept a hike in tax to pay for the NHS but only if the whole system was reworked ,otherwise it's just a waste of money



I think there's a lot of truth in this .government micro-management of society has taught a lot of people ,especially the younger generations that they must go to the doctors for every single little ache and pain ,every part of our diet is monitored with almost weekly updates of what is good or bad for us and media coverage of the latest cancer causing food sends people straight to the doctors .

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

and another thing........ (:D ) Whenever we have this discussion someone (sometimes me) raises the old chestnut about foreigners using the system and not paying for it being a factor in it's problems.....stress on maternity, HIV treatment, non-recouping of funds etc. Then the liberal crowd point out that foreigners don't account for all that much expenditure etc.
Why don't we simply stop people who haven't paid in from using the system (without paying for it's usage)? That would shut the little englanders up, remove a (real or imagined) problem and we could all move on to tackling the next problem with the NHS.
Heres a thought......Perhaps the NHS can't be revitalised by a big solution, an epiphany. Perhaps it's just a long hard slog through fixing a myriad of little problems that it needs?

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Although I still think you put up a strong argument, it appears that some cross-party consensus may appear.
http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-...rself-10725599

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

140 patients on my ward....100 are foreign about 50 of those can speak partial english, 40 no english at all and 10 better english than me

only 2 of them work atm and 20 of them are lets jump off a plane get treatment and using the embassy at the moment to claim asylum. only 18 of the 100 have ever worked.

Treatment costs 50k a year per patient and this doesn't inc any other problems they might suffer with that require treatment some have cardiac problems and most have diabetic related conditions that require on going treatment this inc diabetic clinics and community nurses.

This is just a small area of the NHS you only have to go to your local A&E and you'll see foreign patients all over even the out of hours docs are the same.

---------- Post added at 01:57 ---------- Previous post was at 01:30 ----------


When I first started working on the ward I am on now we had still do 35 patient slots per shift this inc 2 beds and the rest that look like dental chairs.

The chairs cost around 1k each the beds are around 3k each. we also had 12 wheel chairs.

10 years down the line...we have 100 foreign patients we now have 25 beds and 10 chairs. 20 of these beds are taken by foreign patients and only about 5 of them really needs one but because they kick off the trust just gives on and they buy the beds in 25 beds at 3k each.

There is also the increased costs of translators they have to bring in to talk to these patients.

Another thing that is happening. while I agree the trust uses a lot of foreign workers we use a lot of Filipinos. However majority 10 years ago was English working staff on my ward. we have around 60 staff and in the last 3 years replacement staff have all been foreign we stand at about 20 English now and 40 staff of none english.

We have fili's, italian, greek, romanian, asian, indian, pakistani, slovakian, polish, african and spanish. While they are great to get on with they translate for free on the ward as this covers a lot of the patients I was on about above and breaks up the communication barriers we have.

I did say years ago that the trust would start to employ foreign workers for this very thing. Not that it was advertised but I said the managers would looke to employ those that could speak the languages of the patients and bang 3 years down the line here we are. It's not through a lack of White English workers either.

750 applications for 1 job in 24hrs.

Same with the manufacturing industry you get a lot if not all asians and others of course polish being another working in these jobs it never used to be like that but you get one then they get some of their family and they get their friends and before you know it 100 of them are employed.

They speak their own languages and English end up getting pushed out. Thats not to say a lot of english wont do these jobs because a lot wont.

I get along with most at my work and they even agree that it needs looking at.

That of course is not to say the NHS needs a HUGE investment it's not just the money it's the cost savings they need to look at.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

This old argument of "jobs Brits won't do" is not as applicable as it used to be there are plenty of brits who'd jump at the chance of even the lowest menial job but because they are british they are not suitable because they would expect minimum wage and a lot of cleaning contractors now only want foreign workers that they pay at a lower rate then the minimum wage. My neighbours wife is one such example she gets £4 an hour and works from 0600 to 1500 when i asked why she put up with it she said that her being foreign and easily deported (that's how her employer puts it, it's not what i believe) she should be grateful and neither her or any of the others want to take the chance and call his bluff.

For a longtime the adult retraining in this country has been an absolute scam with only the so called training companys getting anything out of it. It's time we the public demanded better adult training and incentivise training to those unemployed so not only do they get decent quality jobs but the country has less skills shortages including within the NHS.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

NHS to recruit hundreds of GPs from Poland, Lithuania and Greece
The health service is to recruit hundreds of GPs from countries such as Poland, Lithuania, Greece with promises of £90,000 salaries and “generous relocation packages” in a bid to tackle a spiralling NHS crisis.

The new scheme run by NHS England will see doctors from across the EU undergoing 12 weeks training in Poland before they start work in Britain.

Health officials are trawling EU countries for medical staff in a bid to plug shortages of family doctors, amid warnings that long waits to see GPs are fuelling the Accident & Emergency (A&E) crisis.

Medics from Croatia, Lithuania, Greece, Spain and Poland have now been recruited, as part of plans which aim to bring 500 doctors in from the EU ahead of Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...huania-greece/

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Aired last night: In Business-The NHS and Productivity-BBC R4
Worth a listen. The take home message was that the NHS has enough money. It's just spending it very badly and doing a really bad job of running itself.

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

I think most people had figured that out years ago

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The other thing to remember is that budget now has to cover a lot of social care. It would seem that part of the current crisis is a lack of social care provision causing bed blocking with people who would, with support, be able to go home. Hospitals have become a bottleneck with too many people coming in to A&E at the same time as they have trouble getting people out.

Social Care, Mental Health. The Government has been underfunding the parts of the social support that we don't see in order to protect the NHS budget. Then the NHS has to do more with the same amount of money.

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GPs in England must keep their surgeries open for longer to meet demand from patients, or risk losing funding, Downing Street has warned.
It said many patients were going to under pressure A&E departments because they could not get appointments.
The government wants to see surgeries open between 08:00 and 20:00, seven days a week, unless they can prove the demand is not there.
The British Medical Association accused ministers of "scapegoating" doctors.
Downing Street said surgeries should do more to ensure they offer appointments in the evening and at weekends.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38620935

About time this happened .The GP is the first line of treatment and it is the GP surgeries that should kick start the 7 day NHS .Of course i don't think the GP will like this

Re: Crisis in the NHS
 

Stacks of GP vacancies though. They can't attract enough Drs, why? Because they are overworked.
It's the tired old Govt. plot, of blame someone else to deflect attention, and create a 'villain' for the media/public. We don't pay enough for our healthcare and we're going to have to pay substantially more should have been the message.
The 7 day NHS thing is cobblers, it always has been 7 days a week. Another media soundbite to deflect attention from the real issues.