UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Will not be long before the Tories lovers come and deny all this

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

They've been running adverts pushing this 'controversial research' for a year at least. Presumably there is some sort of massive, coordinated campaign to deceive the British public going on, because none of the mainstream media outlets have been anywhere near it.

Oh well, time to stock up on canned goods.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Are you turning into a prepper?

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Old 'news' if you can call it that.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Oh well the only sensible thing to do is vote for a party that thinks the UK economy was just peachy a few years back and want to spend huge amounts more from the magic money tree.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Here they are.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

We just need to cancel the HS2 train. get the Conservatives out, and we'll be ok.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

And a little bit more.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

you are right there is a coordinated campaign to deceive the British public and its the whole of Westminster in on it.

---------- Post added at 10:51 ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 ----------

Well this makes it look to me like the Tories have about stripped said tree and in fact are spending more than Labour

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Oh Gary you do come up with some wonderful theories.:)

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

So for the UK to be bankrupt by 2014 we have just over 3 months to go.

Let's all bookmark this page and return to it on Jan 1st 2014 to see where we are. That's of course assuming we all have enough money to keep our internet services running.

Posted by a non-Tory supporter by the way.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

They've spent £700billion more than Labour. What a bunch of :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Err .. Have you actually watched it? It spends most of the first 10 minutes laying into the welfare state and, quite correctly, pointing out that the "Tory cuts" of the last 3 years have actually been nothing of the sort. By 20 minutes in, it's quoting Douglas Carswell, an MP from the right of the Tory party, to illustrate just how badly out of control government spending has become over the last 30 years.

If Money Week's prescription for fixing the national debt was followed by any of our parties, Cable Forum couldn't contain all the threads moaning about welfare cuts.

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Yes. Rather a lot of that is interest payments on debts run up by Labour. The rest is due to our STRUCTURAL DEFICIT. You do know what one of those is, don't you? It's just that the way you're on here every day moaning about Tory Cuts, anyone would think you don't believe there's actually much of a problem.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Don't forget that pointing out such facts automatically makes you a Tory-lover.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

One thing people forget is a large part of the debt was taken on during the bank crisis nationalising RBS and Lloyds. We'll get quite a bit of that money back when we sell them off, it would be considered as an asset on the books surely...

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Oh the joy I get to be pretentious and use latin,Thank you Chris for the Ad hominem go at me and thank you for blanketing all my posts on these subjects as moaning. As I have posted countless times I am posting in support of the poor and weak. My views are just as valid as yours are I believe. But I do find it ironic that you seem to moan about me moaning funny that :)

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

The video somewhat snootily suggests "you won't hear this reported in the Telegraph", which is nonsense ... There has been plenty of commentary in that paper, and AFAIK in others, which has stated quite plainly that the cuts scheduled to occur between 2010 and 2015 are barely going to scratch the surface and that whoever is in power after 2015 is going to have to do a lot more.

There is nothing new in this video, except perhaps its entertaining misuse of averages (the way it misuses average life spans to discredit the pensions system is particularly amusing).

Nevertheless, any of you who think the video is designed to carry a Tory-hating message really haven't listened to it properly. Its warning is that the country has been living beyond its means almost since the day the welfare state was set up and most certainly for the last 30 years. Which means that pretty much everything the Labour Party stands for is unaffordable and has got to go, if you take everything the video says at face value. Or did you all miss the bit where it warned about the possible need to "privatise" the NHS? (whatever that means).

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Do you mean this?

http://www.debtbombshell.com/britains-budget-deficit.htm

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

No Chris is not a Tory lover but he agrees with how the cuts have been implemented. I know supported the Tories in the past but he has turned quite partial to some of UKIPs polices

See I at least try to keep up ;)

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Russ has a point btw. 2014? Something pretty bloody drastic is going to have to happen in the next few months.

Also one of their main measurements is % of debt compared to GDP. Which, a year and a half ago, would paint quite a different picture. Doesn't help to do that during a recession when it would be quite a bit different. Even the deficit could drastically change when we start seeing some proper growth. Debts and deficits aren't going to go down without it.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Its a bit more involved than that but the book value is, IIRC, what the asset is currently valued at, not what we paid for it. At the moment, I think those shares are worth quite a lot less than we paid for them.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

We've got more debt than Greece which scares the brown stuff out of me.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

I have definitely moved to the right over the past 5 years and I find common cause with UKIP on a range of issues besides the EU. I'm yet to be convinced that a vote for UKIP is going to be productive at a general election, although as I live in a fairly safe Labour seat, for me it probably is the best course of action as it will add to their national tally, which to a certain extent is still a useful statistic.

As for how the cuts have been implemented, yes, by and large I agree with the way it has been done. State spending has to encourage useful economic activity, not become a substitute for it, and welfare for those who are capable of work must be sufficient therefore to cover the gaps between jobs. Systems that determine who is entitled to what can always be improved, but the basic operating principles are sound.

Nevertheless, after 2015 the axe really will fall. I am curious to hear where the good denizens of Cable Forum think it should fall first. And where it should fall thereafter.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

I agree things need to change I just think the cuts that have been made are more about appeasing the middle and upper classes instead of actually making a difference to how much money is lost.

14 quid here and 14 quid there with a large proportion of this lost in coasts is not going to make much of a difference

Moving 1 person off ESA onto JSA will save £50 per person yet the way its all been implemented means a good portion of this is lost to appeals costs

75 billion 1 tenth of our whole debt every year is spent out of the welfare budget on the State pension. This is the figure that is to blame for the state of the economy. This figure should never have had to be paid by the tax payer. The NI was spent by Labour or the Tories whoever but having to pay 1 tenth of the countries debt every year to the old will continue to cripple us. Even if JSA and ESA was stopped tomorrow it would only drop spending by 9 billion a year 2 billion less than is given away. Yet the same people here saying we support hitting the poor ar ethe same ones saying its ok to give away 11 billion in aid. It beggars belief

---------- Post added at 11:16 ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 ----------


Means test the state pension

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Yeah it would certainly be the book value, which is why I said most, since we would have also chucked a load away writing off bad debts we'll never get back. Still my point is the measurements they're using are the most negative you can find. Selling off the banks and seeing growth would paint a much better picture.

They say we're the odd one out when all the other countries with similar finances have collapsed but that's because the underlying fundamentals were healthier in the UK. This isn't just spin, it's the reason borrowing costs are so low for the Government. The simple stats don't show the whole story.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Why should the state pension be means tested as people have worked bloody hard all their lives and should not have to face being means tested.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

We have our own currency, and therefore full control over our monetary policy, which Greece does not.

The video played fast and loose with its explanation of government bonds (a.k.a. "Gilts"), referring to their "interest rates", which implies they are loans in the sense we understand them domestically, which they are not. It also chose to contrast the eye-watering gilt yields of the early 1980s, which are pretty much a worst case scenario in our modern history, with the yields of today, as if that were enough to prove things are about to get worse.

The fact is, lenders know the state of the British economy and the gilt yields the British government is able to secure are a reflection of the perceived soundness of the economy and the way it is being managed. Those yields are not going to spike a la Greece as a result of any of the data in that Moneyweek video, precisely because all the information in that video is already a matter of public record and is taken into account when lenders bid for government bonds.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

The axe will have to fall on pensions. Benefit cuts save a pittance whilst I don't see it being possible to cut the NHS.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

because it costs the tax payer 75 billion a year no other benefit even comes close. Leaving the state pension alone and targeting the poor is urinating in the wind and will never make enough money to make a difference

They would only be means tested if they were well off enough to handle it

State pension is 125 quid a week iirc for someone to have paid enough into it to cover £125 a week for 20 years they would have had to have had a £500 a week job all their life

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Raise the pension age to 70. I recently started a private one and on the application they ask you what age you plan to receive it, I put 70 as it seemed the only realistic option when you project how much you'll want to retire on. Plus that will probably be the age, if not higher, by the time I retire. :erm:

That said that would increase unemployment and prevent people moving up in their careers until later. Maybe.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

no other insurance policy in the world pays full dividends if the policy fails. The NI policy has failed that is why the bill is paid for out of the welfare budget

and on top of that the State pension will rise exponentially as more and more people are living longer. It is a hard fact but it is still a fact

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

It already is. I'm paying more, working longer and getting less at the end as are most other public sector workers. In fact the only public sector job that I know of not to be getting a kicking pensions wise is MPs. :mad:

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Living where I do, you do tend to learn not to take infrastructure for granted quite so much. In some ways I can see how lingering frontier attitudes in the American West have allowed survivalism to flourish over there.

But I'm not digging a bunker or stockpiling ammunition, no. :D

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

I mean the state pension more than anything.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

:tu:

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

You have to tackle the big ticket items.


start Privatising parts of the NHS. With a view to fully privatising it.

scrap public sector pensions.

state pensions should reflect what contributions you have put in. (Certain exceptions will apply obviously)

Scrap child benefit after the second child ( you want 3,4,5 kids then make sure you can afford to have them)

the NHS is the biggy, it's a monkey on the country's back.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Can't see this being a goer. It's a service the vast majority will need a few times in our life at the very least. More to the point the right to healthcare should not be dependent on your income. I don't think anyone wants a situation where someone can't get the treatment they need because they can't afford it.

Maybe we need to increase how much we pay in tax/NI for it. Or put a separate NHS tax so we can all see how much we pay for it.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/20...l#post35554563
Post 31 anyone?

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

And it's no more or less likely now than it was then ...

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Again - so what's going to happen in the next 3 months? Something big enough to 'bankrupt' the UK is unlikely to happen overnight and without someone knowing something about it already. I call BS on this story. I'm not saying I don't think the country's economy is a mess and will stay that way for years to come - in fact it's exactly what I think. But bankruptcy? Can't see it happening.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

106 £billion a year.

http://www.nhsconfed.org/priorities/...s.aspx#funding

There's got to be a more efficient way.

I don't think all procedures should be covered by the NHS certainly some elective treatment.

I don't know the ins and outs of the NHS, but there has to be way to reduce costs, privatise elements yet still have the service free at the point of need for the vast majority of the population.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

so the state pension is costing nearly 3/4 of what the NHS bill is??

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

so ?? what's your point ??

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Pretty much.

The state pension also needs to be looked at.

Potentially means tested.

If you have a private pension or savings that provide you with an income of say, £35,000 a year ( per person, not joint) then you don't need a state pension.

If , in the future, your savings dip below the threshold then you can apply for your state pension.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------

Well I think his point is, as well as reforming the NHS that pensions need to be looked at too.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Pretty obvious but I will state it again

Means testing the State pension will save this country a fortune

No other single benefit I can think of pays £125 per week Higher rate ESA with add ons in £112 a week why should OAPs who may have other income get more than anyone else? yes they worked for it but what they paid in NI is long since spent and is now paid for by the tax payer

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

But this number doesn't mean anything without context. I.E How much should it cost to provide healthcare to a population of 65 million?

France and Germany both pay more than us.

Almost certainly but I think these would be a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of providing healthcare, especially to a aging population. Large organisations will generate wasteful spending and the NHS should cut down on as much of this as possible but we still need to address the fact that it's always going to be expensive.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Thank god some are finally seeing the wood for the trees

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Old people are costing us a fortune.

it's ok saying that they/you/me have paid into it through our working lives. but it has to looked at. means testing is the obvious.

but I've said before that it's all a bit of a joke anyway. one person I know who paid into a small private pension ended up having whatever that was worth deducted from his state pension.
so what was the point of paying into a private one when you're no better off than the other person who didn't. and was not paying say about £10 per week for years.

he doesn't get the all important pension credit thing either because of it. which is the key to all things free for the old.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

I daresay that will happen in the long run but without a viable alternative then it won't happen any time soon .The introduction of compulsory private pensions has been a step forward but until we get more people into work that pays enough to get people off benefits altogether it will never happen

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

The trouble is that people are demanding all sorts of things on the NHS now which once upon a time would never have been envisaged and they'll all argue that they have a genuine 'need'. The line has to be drawn somewhere and wherever such a line exists, there'll be folks who fall the wrong side.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Germany spends £300 billion on Healthcare,almost triple the UK's amount... From personal experience I can say that the German Healthcare system is much better than the NHS BUT it's much more expensive for the Individual.

Considering the NHS is paid for out of general taxation and in Germany employer and employee each pay up to 15% of gross wages (depending on insurer) I think there needs to be a discussion on how to secure the future of the NHS and how to finance it in a sustainable way....

Generally speaking it's clear to me that our government spending is way out of control and something drastic needs to be,or rather should be,done. People want the government to control their lives yet p and moan about taxes all Day long...

People seem to want the security without paying for it.... IMO we should cut our welfare bills rather drastically,and I mean both private and Corporate.Our benefits system is out of control and we're taxing people and businesses to death for it.

I feel we should have a drastically reduced public sector and government is there to take care of the necessities to run the country,not regulate people's and business Life to the point of suffocation.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

and most of it is going on the state pension. As I have said ESA and JSA could be covered by not giving 11 billion in aid and we would still have an extra 2 billion left over

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

In the words of Mark Twain, there are Lies, Damn Lies and statistics. In my opinion this fits this report.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Well,there are more benefits than just ESA and JSA...

our benefits system has turned into this huge wealth distribution machine mostly because of perceived injustice in how income and wealth is distributed.

State pensions are indeed the biggest piece of the pie and people need to take more responsibility for their pensions.Unfortunatly Left-Wing,Socialist policies have destroyed the family unit and families don't look after each other as they used to,meaning more people living on their own needing more help from the state... Which is good for the Left wing,statist parties helping them secure the votes from these very people. :rolleyes:

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

I pay into 2 personal pensions and i also have my military pension. Additionally i have payed into the NI system all my working life which will fund my state pension. I don't see why the stat pension should be reduced just so those who have never worked and have no intention of ever working can have there benefits increased. May be the state pension should be based on what someone has paid in over the years and if you have paid naff all you should get naff all.

I also agree that we should not be giving aid to other country's when we are constantly reducing the money we pay to those in this country who need help, charity begins at home .

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Well that would be fine I think. A NHS tax. I think people would go for that if you were honest about it and the money was ring fenced to go to the NHS.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

No it will not. That money is spent mate gone done and dusted the State pension comes out of the welfare budget.

My view on means testing the State Pension is no personal it is realistic. In an ideal world your NI payments should have been invested your pension secured however all the money has been spent

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Then suddenly people will find out they haven't quite contributed as much as they thought. Easier to afford the pensions of the war generation who didn't live as long and were fewer in the number than the boomers who are more numerous and live longer.

Besides we don't know the circumstances of everyone who hasn't paid in a lot. What do you do about women that left work to raise their children or, for that matter, women who could argue that previous inequalities in the workplace stifled their ability to earn? People have had spells of illness that halted contributions and people whose career paths dried up later in life due to shifts in technology/demand/whatever?

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

A sound argument for a single tax rate imo ,the original idea of NI contributions was to fund the NHS and pensions afaik and since that has not happened for quite some time ,why not scrap NI's and fund out of general taxation .

Stopping foreign aid will only increase the welfare budget across Europe as starving and homeless people flock to other countries ,the European aid budget serves as a means of keeping people in their own countries

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Well,we'll need an HONEST discussion about this... I get the feeling that people think that since the NHS is 'free' that we should be grateful for the government to provide it in the first place. Unfortunately since it comes out of general taxation the NHS is vastly underfunded,but since it's a socialist system that covers everyone that is somehow good enough....

No,it isn't.... We can't expect top medical care and expect to pay nothing for it.

But then of course people will go into this whole spiel how it's unfair and everyone should get equal treatment and bla bla rubbish. :rolleyes:

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

better them than us. Europe have loved fact they have come here. Remember the French whining because of the camp Songat was it? telling us we should let more in.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Hence an additional tax so people know they're paying for it and can see how much it costs. Also the NHS should treat people equally. You don't want a country where people can't afford treatment, I don't want to think we're that kind of society.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

A big major, major problewm this country has, is the government running it.

We have a NHS run by pen pushers, who are ripping off the NHS with there high wages to themself, and yet the most important people the Drts and Nurses getting paid a pittance of a wage.

Too many private companies thinking they can run it and fall flat on there backside.

Osborne has borrowed MORE money than any other chancellor in living memory. The most inmportant thing we need in this country is jobs for the work force.

We have the evil bedroom tax that idiot at no 10 wont axe, we have more food banks than ever before.

If that idiot doesn't do anything soon, we wont have no power to give us utilities - why they wont spend money - instead of putting it there pockets - they claim they deserve money wages and expenses.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Not the government that got us in to this position?

As for doctors earning a 'pittance', let me refer you to this:

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore...y-for-doctors/

I don't call £55k - £81k a year a 'pittance'.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

I was watching a webcast of a previous council meeting of mine. there was a job that was quoted £250,000 for by one company, and £900,000 by another.
and they were talking about asking the £900,000 one if they could do it any cheaper. nearer to the £250,000 quote.

one councillor was asking why are we being ripped off, and asking them if they can do it cheaper? why don't we just save the publics money and give the contract to the the £250,000 one?

a couple of the other councillors replied rather sheepishly that the £900,000 one was on the list of the councils preferred contractors.

all corrupt to the core!

amongst that issue there was another issue about missing money from the sale of land sold by the council.
you just know by their faces that a couple of them have nicked it!!

Government bodies, councils and the like are the worst people for wasting, spending, losing and nicking publics money.
it's been going on for years. and in many cases will still keep carrying on. it's all about money and corruption.

I think when this big thing suddenly kicks in. you're going to see a lot of MPs, government bodies and the like flee the country with all the money they've swindled.

that's what's happening now. blank cheques galore :)

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Isn't that how it already works

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

You don't qualify for the proper state pension until you've amassed, I think, 40 years of NI contributions. I think he is talking about linking the amount with what you've put in in terms of cash however.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Isn't that what already happens, you qualify for the full pension after a set period.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Yes but this would mean everyone gets differentiating amounts based on the total sum they put it. I imagine. In the current case a minimum wage worker who has 40 years of contributions gets the same as high-earner who also has their 40 years.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Really? In a previous job I worked for a while in the accounts dept of a large hospital and I can assure you Doctors are not paid a pittance. Close to Six figure salaries were on offer to some and this was 10+ years ago so I doubt they've had a pay cut since then.

Plus part of the current high demand on A&E depts is down to GPs contracts being renegotiated by the last government which pretty much abolished night and weekend cover for minor ailments.

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Actually, you are oversimplifying the problem there. For one thing, Doctors certainly are not paid a pittance, even compared to other careers that require similar levels of qualification. Regarding Nurses, some do an amazing job and do deserve a good salary. Others do naff all, and just sit their doing the minimum they can. Sorry my opinion of Nurses is a little harsh, but it was formed when I was doing accounts at my local hospital and was able to find evidence that some nurses were skimping slightly on portions for patient meals then giving the difference to themselves. Essentially stealing food from patients. The real villians, IMO, in the NHS are the private companies running the contracts. The system under which the NHS worked when I worked there was too open to abuse by the contractor, and the contractee (the NHS itself) was too restricted in the actions it could take when enforcing the contract. This leads me to my next point:
Most private companies are perfectly capable of running hospitals. They just are unwilling (or unable, as they have to justify it to their shareholders) to spend the money required. This why they fall flat.

I think you missed the end of one of those sentences.. Osbourne has borrowed more money than any other chancellor in living memory to pay the interest on the previous government's borrowings.
The bedroom thing is a double edged sword. While even I can see it's unfair to tax a little old lady or mother with a disabled child* because they have a bedroom they are not using, it's equally unfair that some councils have put tenants in 6 or 8 bedroom houses because they have more than two kids.

I think one way around it is for the government to actively encourage councils (or housing associations) to build more homes.

The trouble is, successive governments (on both sides) have failed to tackle big business, and, in fact, seem frightened of it.


*on a side note, does anyone find it odd that while the Daily Mirror will happily trot out stories about old ladies or single parents with disabled children being affected by the government's actions, they were silent when the previous Labour government made changes to the benefit system that made the whole claiming process much harder and more stressful on the very people the Daily Mirror is now accusing the Tories of victimising?

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Sounds a little unfair - I have paid NI for the last 39 years, the last 20 years at the maximum amount, and I will pay in for the next 10 years (minimum).

During this time, I have also contributed to a number of Pension Schemes (due to moving jobs), and invested in my house by extending/improving it rather than taking holidays some years.

So, over 49 years I will have worked hard, contributed in both NI and tax (which I have no issue with), saved up rather than blown my money on frippery when I couldn't afford it, and it would appear it would be better if I stopped saving/being careful, spend what I have now, and let the State (i.e. those who pay NI and taxes (in one form or another)) take care of me......

btw, NI was never just for pensions, it was also to pay for the day to day running of the NHS.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/10078062

Re: UK to be bankrupt by 2014
 

Which is a stupid way to save money.. I don't know the exact figures, but I was told by a friend of my mums (who was quite high up in our local A&E department at the time, and certainly had access to the figures) that it costs the NHS as a whole considerably more to treat a patient at A&E for a minor ailment than it does for the GP to treat that minor ailment.