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-   -   Government to monitor Internet Use (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33686707)

Damien 01-04-2012 11:47

Government to monitor Internet Use
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17576745

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC
The government will be able to monitor the calls, emails, texts and website visits of everyone in the UK under new legislation set to be announced soon.

Internet firms will be required to give intelligence agency GCHQ access to communications on demand, in real time.

:mad:

After all the promises of a 'freedom bill' designed to roll back the more intrusive aspects of Labour's time in power, after strongly opposing the same measures when Labour tried to introduce this, the government to set to bring forward new laws to allow monitoring of internet usage.

papa smurf 01-04-2012 11:54

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
this government make lots of promises- what can i say words are cheap :(

Taf 01-04-2012 12:02

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
If it protects us from terrorism or crime I'm all for it.

If they start selling our info I'll be against it.

colin25 01-04-2012 12:03

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Or it is April 1..and this is bogus? :D

Maggy 01-04-2012 12:04

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Well I'm left wondering if it's even possible to do in real time..Even if they are skimming the data.Just how many people have they got?:shrug:

colin25 01-04-2012 12:15

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
I will need to stop hitting the porno sites..and once they find out I am a closet liberal..well..there goes my credibility

denphone 01-04-2012 12:20

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35407913)
I will need to stop hitting the porno sites..and once they find out I am a closet liberal..well..there goes my credibility

Porno sites.:erm:

danielf 01-04-2012 12:23

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35407906)
Well I'm left wondering if it's even possible to do in real time..Even if they are skimming the data.Just how many people have they got?:shrug:

Automated keyword matching...

papa smurf 01-04-2012 12:24

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35407913)
I will need to stop hitting the porno sites..and once they find out I am a closet liberal..well..there goes my credibility

come on -link you know the rules :D

colin25 01-04-2012 12:27

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35407918)
come on -link you know the rules :D

lol

just search for "Papa smurf does vegas" :D

Maggy 01-04-2012 13:04

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by danielf (Post 35407917)
Automated keyword matching...

Still going to miss loads especially if people use code.

Gary L 01-04-2012 13:13

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Good old terrorism. the excuse for eveything in this damn country.

denphone 01-04-2012 13:25

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35407942)
Good old terrorism. the excuse for eveything in this damn country.

Then why are you living in this so called damned country?.:)

Gary L 01-04-2012 13:42

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35407947)
Then why are you living in this so called damned country?.:)

Because I'm a damned sheep that is sticking around for the fireworks and tattoo :)

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------

Actually can't we extend this, and get it to make us some money?

we can add swear words to the monitoring filter, and fine everyone that has sworn on the internet. we could even go further and fine people from a list of approved words and phrases.

we could make zillions.

colin25 01-04-2012 13:45

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35407949)
Because I'm a damned sheep that is sticking around for the fireworks and tattoo :)

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------

Actually can't we extend this, and get it to make us some money?

we can add swear words to the monitoring filter, and fine everyone that has sworn on the internet. we could even go further and fine people from a list of approved words and phrases.

we could make zillions.

Ok...can we vote for the words...I vote for "zillion" :D

martyh 01-04-2012 13:47

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35407897)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17576745



:mad:

After all the promises of a 'freedom bill' designed to roll back the more intrusive aspects of Labour's time in power, after strongly opposing the same measures when Labour tried to introduce this, the government to set to bring forward new laws to allow monitoring of internet usage.

You think they aren't already :dozey:

Horace 01-04-2012 13:59

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
This will work well to catch those pesky terrorists as long as nobody tells them about VPNs.

Gary L 01-04-2012 14:06

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace (Post 35407961)
This will work well to catch those pesky terrorists as long as nobody tells them about VPNs.

I'm not going to tell Mohammed.

but I think if they feel that there's a need for this then they must be worried about the olympics.

then again. if no terrorist activity happens with the olympics then I don't see a need for it.

Gary L 01-04-2012 18:05

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
The more we let things like this happen to us. the more will be done to us in stages at a later date.
we will be that used to being nannied and rules being dictated to us. that every extra stage will be an extension of the other, and will be the norm.

but remember. it's a lot like petrol. once it's at that stage there will be no going back.

This isn't about terrorism or crime. it's all part of the Big Plan.
nobody has even mentioned saving the life of a child for a start. which makes you suspicious.

I thought we were going to be like Americans. but it looks like we're going to be Chinese.

you have been warned, and good luck comrade.

devilincarnate 01-04-2012 18:33

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35407919)
lol

just search for "Papa smurf does vegas" :D

Done that and it very good results:D

colin25 01-04-2012 18:50

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devilincarnate (Post 35408095)
Done that and it very good results:D

Claw machine was best :D

Arthurgray50@blu 01-04-2012 20:31

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
I can see Internet tax coming here.

martyh 01-04-2012 20:39

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35408176)
I can see Internet tax coming here.

already do Arthur ,VAT ,but i wouldn't put it past them to slap a connection tax or something like that on us ,now shut up and stop giving them ideas ,remember .....

THEY ARE WATCHING/LISTENING/MONITORING YOU :D

denphone 01-04-2012 20:39

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35408176)
I can see Internet tax coming here.

“If you expect the worst, you'll never be disappointed.”

Hugh 01-04-2012 20:53

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
If you expect the worse, you will alway be a miserable sod....;)

However, hope for the best, plan for the worst....

Arthurgray50@blu 01-04-2012 21:07

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
If people use it a lot, don't tell David, he will find another of getting a tax out of it.

At the moment various companies charge for a connection fee.

BUT according to a Tv guy that offerd advice on saving money, BT have the lines for phones etc, BUT companies offer connection offers, but its already there, so why the connection fee..

mertle 01-04-2012 21:11

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...eb-monitoring-

You know thought this april fool but express do write up too.

Still suspected it april fool waited for tha aha got people.

Folks its worse if aint april fool. Its actually very distateful worse then when ID cards got mooted many moons ago.

Phone taps included seems we will be totally monitered from web, email and phone.

Now if remember labour under blair looked at the americans NSA system.

Now how would they get around the law land that must goto courts for warrant and have suspecting wrong doing. It means they have to follow A procedure. To do this would destroy our constitution of OUR RIGHTS.

Under labour the same concerns came up who watches these watchers from using it political means rather anti terrorists.

It got crushed then seems its being resurfaced. Either cameron really really stupid or his in mindset of committing political harrycarry.

Worry it could easily be illegally used to opress nation. To stop rights to strike rights to march and any other liberty such freedom speach.

Another is what about politians being tapped information then could be held against the oposite party whoever in government in time.

I think once we start going down absolute secret society of knowing everything anything of every single human being respect is gone of people in power.

Fawkes 02-04-2012 02:10

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Why do they want to monitor internet use, terrorism?

The latest mortality statistic I could get my hands on was for England and Wales from 2010. Of the total 493,242 deaths in 2010 not one was due to terrorism.

So if the government is interested in protecting the public from harm they could look at for example the 141,446 deaths due to cancers and neoplasms as this was up +0.7% on the previous year or digestive diseases (25,662) up +1.7% on 2009.

I know money is already spent in these areas and I'm not saying counter-terrorism is not important but we need prospective.

If we are so frightened of terrorism that we are willing to give up the presumption of innocence then the terrorist have already won.

I know what you’re thinking; another wishy-washy liberal, if I’ve got nothing to hide, I’ve got nothing to fear, right!
I just don’t want to be treated like a criminal without reasonable suspicion.
The use of existing anti-terror laws don’t exactly have a good track record, no reason to think the data collected if this goes through would be any different, assuming they don’t just leave it on a train.

---------- Post added at 02:10 ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35408264)
Why do they want to monitor internet use, terrorism?

The latest mortality statistic I could get my hands on was for England and Wales from 2010. Of the total 493,242 deaths in 2010 not one was due to terrorism.

So if the government is interested in protecting the public from harm they could look at for example the 141,446 deaths due to cancers and neoplasms as this was up +0.7% on the previous year or digestive diseases (25,662) up +1.7% on 2009.

I know money is already spent in these areas and I'm not saying counter-terrorism is not important but we need prospective.

If we are so frightened of terrorism that we are willing to give up the presumption of innocence then the terrorist have already won.

I know what you’re thinking; another wishy-washy liberal, if I’ve got nothing to hide, I’ve got nothing to fear, right!
I just don’t want to be treated like a criminal without reasonable suspicion.
The use of existing anti-terror laws don’t exactly have a good track record, no reason to think the data collected if this goes through would be any different, assuming they don’t just leave it on a train.

Damn, now I'm on the watch list.

mertle 02-04-2012 12:28

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
does anybody think this might be the PHORM thing back

rizzyking will be pleased if this could be PHORM involved.

mertle 02-04-2012 13:50

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35408446)
AFAIK Phorm actually sat on your PC, unless you have the blockers installed, and reported your browsing habits back to base to then target advertising at you. This is wholesale data flow capture and analysis by means of installed hardware in the ISP's infrastructure.

Now if the information stayed within the confines of GCHQ anti-terrorism activities or serious law enforcement, I might just about consider it justified. However this is not what is being proposed: All and sundry public bodies down to the local council and even some charities will have full access to all the information and you know how those petty little beuraucrats just love to abuse any laws that they can if it means they can lord it about over joe public.

Remember how existing anti-terrorism laws are used to justify chips in wheelie-bins or to chuck awkward pensioners out of political meetings or any other of a thousand ways the legislation was never intended for. If this snooping comes in, in the form that is proposed, it will be shamefully abused.

With the cavalier way that government bodies treat data integrity expect your most intemate details to be public knowledge or even sold to the highest bidder.

indeed I have on phorm.

Yep scary thought data integrity agree this fear all about raising money but there also danger it misused.

We should not take anything face value.

I can only imagine how much this will cost to monitor telephones, internet and discussion networks. theres alot manpower or this there way to create jobs with loads and loads snoops.

Scary thought what we typing here being monitored.

Why dont they go wholly paraniod have microchips, keyloggers installed in phones, keyboards. Hang on giving these idiots ideas again.

I actually wondering what they scared off.

Fawkes 02-04-2012 14:41

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
They are not interested in anything we type here but that’s not the point.
If the government passed a law that said a civil servant could enter your home at will and stand watching over your shoulder as you browsed the web or composed and email there would be rioting in the streets about it. We should not be prepared to accept this level of intrusion into our personal lives from afar.

mertle 02-04-2012 14:59

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35408487)
They are not interested in anything we type here but that’s not the point.
If government passed a law that said a civil servant could enter your home at will and stand watching over your shoulder as you browsed the web or composed and email there would be rioting in the streets about it. We should not be prepared to accept this level of intrusion into our personal lives from afar.

I agree whole heartedly where does it stop. Its good point if you allow inch of privacy thew ill take a mile. Before we know it we will have camera's hidden in devices.

There was stink awhile back about that Cisco was going to put camera in there cisco boxes for targeted advertising. So technology there go much further not sure I would not under estimate that they want to monitor everything.

America NSA very intrusive would assume we use this model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsa

Uncle Peter 02-04-2012 15:16

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Read carefully the privacy policy of your "free" antivirus program should you have one installed, particularly Avast. Your browsing history potentially tracked under your nose with carte blanched to do with it whatever they want assuming you accepted the EULA.

Anonymouse 02-04-2012 15:35

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35408487)
They are not interested in anything we type here but that’s not the point.

I wouldn't be too sure of that. Hi, Echelon!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35408487)
We should not be prepared to accept this level of intrusion into our personal lives from afar.

I agree entirely; it throws the most fundamental principle of justice - presumed innocent until proven guilty - in the bin. But my question is this:

Since they're the ones in power, making the rules and the laws, how the bloody hell can we stop them?!

And please don't naively say 'We can vote them out' - two problems with that: 1) Until the General Election comes up we can't, so what happens in the meantime? 2) Who's to say the next lot will be any better? I'm not holding my breath.

What's the use of using VPN for everything? They'll just take that as an excuse to say 'Ooh, what's he got to hide, then?' - failing to understand, as the last several UK governments have failed to understand, that there is a qualitative difference between a desire for privacy and having something to hide! Next thing you know, using any secure communication method will be outlawed to all but the powers that be. Oh, they'd love that, wouldn't they? I wouldn't put anything past them. In the US, for example, the NSA's atttitude seems to be that no-one except the US Government, i.e. they themselves, should be allowed to use encryption. Criminal suspects are required by law to surrender encryption keys...yet there's no mention of the good old Fifth Amendment.
Newsflash, peeps: this has NOTHING, NOTHING WHATSOEVER, to do with terrorism, and it never did! They have read 1984 and seen it not as a warning, but as an instruction manual!

Mertle asked 'what are they scared of' - the answer's very simple: their own citizens.

I only wish we had the power to give them a reason to be scared,

Once again I note in passing as a precautionary measure that I do not intend to disappear at any time in the near future.

Fawkes 02-04-2012 16:42

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 35408531)
I wouldn't be too sure of that. Hi, Echelon!

I said they are not interested, not they are not listening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 35408531)
I agree entirely; it throws the most fundamental principle of justice - presumed innocent until proven guilty - in the bin. But my question is this:

Since they're the ones in power, making the rules and the laws, how the bloody hell can we stop them?!

And please don't naively say 'We can vote them out' - two problems with that: 1) Until the General Election comes up we can't, so what happens in the meantime? 2) Who's to say the next lot will be any better? I'm not holding my breath.

If you think that putting a cross on a ballot paper every 4 or 5 years is our only contribution to democracy then we would all live in a dictatorship.
Complain if you are unhappy about something the government is doing or not doing. Write to newspapers, write to your MP and make you feelings know. If you feel very strongly on a particular subject find others and get organised. Make others aware of the problem and ask them to write and complain also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 35408531)
What's the use of using VPN for everything? They'll just take that as an excuse to say 'Ooh, what's he got to hide, then?' - failing to understand, as the last several UK governments have failed to understand, that there is a qualitative difference between a desire for privacy and having something to hide! Next thing you know, using any secure communication method will be outlawed to all but the powers that be. Oh, they'd love that, wouldn't they? I wouldn't put anything past them. In the US, for example, the NSA's atttitude seems to be that no-one except the US Government, i.e. they themselves, should be allowed to use encryption. Criminal suspects are required by law to surrender encryption keys...yet there's no mention of the good old Fifth Amendment.
<SNIP>

Right now the only people using VPN are people that have to for work or people that have something to hide, so it's a short list of people to investigate if criminal or terrorist activity is suspected. If they start monitoring everyone who is transmitting in the clear then more people will start using VPN's and it becomes harder for the security services because the list of people keeping secrets is larger.

I suspect monitoring everyone will do little to prevent terrorism and if it goes through my guess is we will be reading in the papers in a year or twos time how it has been misused.

Horace 02-04-2012 23:03

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35408572)
Right now the only people using VPN are people that have to for work or people that have something to hide...

The main real reason non-work related VPN is used it to safeguard against eavesdropping when using somebodies or some companies wireless access point and yes it stops your own IP address being splattered across the Internet. I use my own VPN server, which runs on a PC at home, as standard when I'm using my iPad away from home. VPNs outside of work use have plenty of legitimate uses, security being the most common one.

Fawkes 03-04-2012 00:44

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace (Post 35408805)
The main real reason non-work related VPN is used it to safeguard against eavesdropping when using somebodies or some companies wireless access point and yes it stops your own IP address being splattered across the Internet. I use my own VPN server, which runs on a PC at home, as standard when I'm using my iPad away from home. VPNs outside of work use have plenty of legitimate uses, security being the most common one.

I could have phrased it better but what I meant was. The use of VPN’s are not that widespread, and assuming one is trying to conceal illegal activity using a VPN would make sense. Therefore any law that results I many more people using a VPN makes it harder for the security service to weed out potential suspects from the crowd.
It’s not that using a VPN makes you more likely to be a criminal. It’s that a criminal is more likely to use a VPN.

The Chinese can’t monitor everyone but if you’re encrypting your emails they assume you’re up to no good.

Horace 03-04-2012 01:33

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Semi-agree. I do think that making a law like this will make VPN use far more common if only because people are paranoid about their privacy, even if it's just down to not wanting the government to know their sexual, political or religious persuasions. The government can give all kinds of reassurances but civil servants looking over our shoulders will be how it is interpreted. This is déj* vu since Labour tried this before and I think I made the same argument then. I really don't think this will pass with the current parliamentary makeup, but who knows what future elections will bring.

Hugh 03-04-2012 06:43

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Write to your MP complaining about this, and get your friends and family to do this as well.

This proposal was wrong before, and it's wrong now.

Nidge41 03-04-2012 06:59

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35407904)
If it protects us from terrorism or crime I'm all for it.

If they start selling our info I'll be against it.

I'm all for it but with the amount of internet use will they be able to monitor it?

martyh 03-04-2012 09:26

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
I don't think that using the excuse "it will help in the prevention of terrorism" will wash with most people .As things stand at the moment we have a very good track record at preventing terrorism in this country and see no reason to clamp down further

Gary L 03-04-2012 10:41

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Terrorism is just an excuse for everything they want to do. just the same as blaming another party for why they have to make cuts and introduce new and raised charges is.

unless they showed us proof that this country was at serious risk of a major terrorist attack, then there's no reason for it.

we're not stupid. the olympics is a major event and an opportunity for terrorist activity. if that goes by with no major incident then there's no need for it.

Hugh 03-04-2012 15:35

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Or the security in place prevented a major incident....

That's like saying you don't need a burglar alarm, window locks, or strong locks on the doors of your house, because you have never had a burglary (even thought the burglar alarm, window locks, and strong door locks deterred/prevented the burglar....).

Anyhoo, the Daily Mash's take on it is quite amusing, imho.
Quote:

Civil rights campaigner Nikki Hollis said: "On the one hand, it's deeply worrying that the government is seeking to create a surveillance culture that encompasses spying on all digital media.

"On the other, that same government would struggle to arrange a children's party if provided with a clown, a bouncy castle, some children and an unlimited supply of jelly.

"So it's hard to say whether we should be worried or mildly amused."

mertle 03-04-2012 16:04

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
What gets me the country broke thats what they keep bashing us. Yet we not too broke for madcap ideoligistic policies. dining rich or giving them nice tax relief.

The reports it will cost 2bn it more likely cost more and yearly costs would be not cheap.

nomadking 03-04-2012 16:36

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
The £2bn figure is over 10 years and most of that is required anyway under EU rules.
Quote:

Internet service providers are obliged to keep details of users' web access, email and internet phone calls for 12 months, under an EU directive from 2009.
Although the content of the calls is not kept, the sender, recipient, time of communication and geographical location does have to be recorded.

Kymmy 03-04-2012 17:52

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
You guys do realise that they will need a warrant to instigate monitoring of the calls/web/email of the persons of interest and that this isn't a blanket monitoring of the internet

From the bbc news article linked to in the first post
Quote:

A new law - which may be announced in the forthcoming Queen's Speech in May - would not allow GCHQ to access the content of emails, calls or messages without a warrant.

nomadking 03-04-2012 17:57

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
From 3 years ago.:rolleyes:
Plan to monitor all internet use
Quote:

Ministers say they estimate the project will cost £2bn to set up, which includes some compensation to the communications industry for the work it may be asked to do.
Quote:

Communications data is an essential tool for law enforcement agencies to track murderers and paedophiles, save lives and tackle crime
Jacqui Smith
Home Secretary
So whose idea was it?

Quote:

Labour did indeed suggest creating a giant database of all the UK's web usage, but abandoned the idea after widespread opposition, including from the two parties now forming the UK's coalition government. Without knowing the full details of the current plans it's not easy to directly compare them.

RizzyKing 03-04-2012 18:25

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Must not be allowed to happen it really musn't neither this government or any of the potential ones in the future have the common sense not to misuse this sort of power and as for the whole warrant thing lol lol lol yes because we have never done surveilance in the past without warrants have we. This is simply the biggest invasion of privacy ever considered in this country and the citizens of this country have always had the right within reason and must continue to have freedom of speech without feeling they may be persecuted for what they say.

Look at the nsa in the US to see how good intentions can go badly wrong they are an agency that routinely infringes the rights of US citizens and rarely if ever get bought to task about it. This whole "terrorism" argument for all the extra monitoring and security is getting a bit thin now and is not valid also this system would not prevent that there are ways to communicate securely that would not be picked up by this system so terrorism as the excuse is complete bs.

Oh for the money to leave this country i would be off like a shot and given that at one point in time i would happily have died to defend this country i think thats a sad way for me to now think but i also know many others who share the sentiment.

nomadking 03-04-2012 19:06

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Why are people only now complaining about something that was enacted 3 years ago.:rolleyes:
Quote:

The Data Retention (EC Directive) Regulations 2009
Made 2nd April 2009
Coming into force 6th April 2009
Quote:

Obligation to retain communications data
4.—(1) It is the duty of a public communications provider to retain the communications data specified in the following provisions of the Schedule to these Regulations—
(a)Part 1 (fixed network telephony);
(b)Part 2 (mobile telephony);
(c)Part 3 (internet access, internet e-mail or internet telephony).
(2) The obligation extends to data relating to unsuccessful call attempts that—
(a)in the case of telephony data, are stored in the United Kingdom, or
(b)in the case of internet data, are logged in the United Kingdom.
(3) An “unsuccessful call attempt” means a communication where a telephone call has been successfully connected but not answered or there has been a network management intervention.
(4) The obligation does not extend to unconnected calls.
(5) No data revealing the content of a communication is to be retained in pursuance of these Regulations.

Maggy 03-04-2012 19:12

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Doubt it will come to pass.After a few years it will probably be abandoned as too expensive and unwieldy.

Tezcatlipoca 03-04-2012 19:18

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409256)
Why are people only now complaining about something that was enacted 3 years ago.:rolleyes:



This is not the same as that, though. It takes it a step further.

The retention directive means that ISPs have to keep the records for a year, and provide them upon receiving a correct and legal request from an authorised party... which AFAIK requires a warrant.


The new proposals would enable GCHQ to access the same information in real-time, and without a warrant.


Even with it still "only" concerning the date/time/name/address of the communications in question, and not the actual content (without a warrant), I am still extremely opposed to this.

Uncle Peter 03-04-2012 19:20

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409256)
Why are people only now complaining about something that was enacted 3 years ago.:rolleyes:

Well they are clearly attempting to circumvent the current hoops which have to be jumped through to obtain an interception warrant to inspect historic data. This is the issue.

I rather suspect the bottom line is that the increased use of voip based interconnections and remote teleconference access is hurting our friends in North Yorkshire from engaging in their routine practice of state sponsored industrial espionage ;)

nomadking 03-04-2012 19:24

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Looking at any content would still need a warrant.
Quote:

Mr Clegg told the BBC people should wait to see the full proposals before judging them - and insisted the content of any communications would still only be accessible with a warrant.

devilincarnate 03-04-2012 19:27

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409267)
Looking at any content would still need a warrant.

I have a warrant can I look at your content:D:D

Damien 03-04-2012 19:29

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35409199)
You guys do realise that they will need a warrant to instigate monitoring of the calls/web/email of the persons of interest and that this isn't a blanket monitoring of the internet

From the bbc news article linked to in the first post

Also they will have a mirrored feed of all traffic and whilst they may only use it for 'persons of interest' it could also be used for fishing expeditions or worse.

Uncle Peter 03-04-2012 19:31

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409267)
Looking at any content would still need a warrant.

What Mr Clegg says is irrelevant. Why would the government admit to engaging in clandestine interception of communications outisde the remit of the law of the land? In fact why would the government of another country admit to doing exactly the same thing on our soil with the blessing of our government on the basis of some "special" relationship?

To suggest that such a mechanism would not be abused is rather naive.

Damien 03-04-2012 19:32

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409267)
Looking at any content would still need a warrant.

Doesn't mean anything. Typical misdirection. They are not planning to go after content but the question would be if they needed a warrant to look at the places your visiting and the people with which you are communicating, that is what they are trying to implement after all. To say they need a warrant to look at content isn't relevant.

Tezcatlipoca 03-04-2012 19:32

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409267)
Looking at any content would still need a warrant.

Yes.

But it has been claimed that no warrant will be required for the real-time on-demand access to the other information, and that is still IMO a step too far.

Damien 03-04-2012 19:33

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409256)
Why are people only now complaining about something that was enacted 3 years ago.:rolleyes:

Maybe if you took the time to read the act from three years ago and read what is being implemented now you would know they are not the same :rolleyes:.

Fawkes 03-04-2012 20:05

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kymmy (Post 35409199)
You guys do realise that they will need a warrant to instigate monitoring of the calls/web/email of the persons of interest and that this isn't a blanket monitoring of the internet

From the bbc news article linked to in the first post

Also in the linked article is a video of David Davis MP who completely contradicts the above in an interview on BBC news.

nomadking 03-04-2012 20:06

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Limited access without a warrant is needed because of the potential network of contacts springing up out of just 1 initial suspect. Eg Suspect X will contact A, B, C, D, E, and F, who will in turn contact a series of people. How can you get a warrant that covers the never ending list of yet unknown possible suspects? You would need to know quickly who was contacting who.

Fawkes 03-04-2012 20:13

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35409300)
Limited access without a warrant is needed because of the potential network of contacts springing up out of just 1 initial suspect. Eg Suspect X will contact A, B, C, D, E, and F, who will in turn contact a series of people. How can you get a warrant that covers the never ending list of yet unknown possible suspects? You would need to know quickly who was contacting who.

Oh I see, we should become an Orwellian police state in an attempt to prevent terrorism.

Tezcatlipoca 03-04-2012 22:26

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
If Theresa May wants easier access to our internet info, I think it's only fair to ask for hers...I mean, so long as she has nothing to hide, nothing to fear, then what's the problem ;)

WhatDoTheyKnow.com - "Theresa May's Internet History"

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:08 ----------

Ah, I remember the olden days (well, 2009)...

Tories outline plans to shrink 'surveillance state'

Quote:

The Conservatives will today promise to "reverse the rise of the surveillance state" by outlining plans for fewer giant government databases and stronger powers to protect personal privacy.

(snip)
Yet now they pick up the ball dropped by New Labour... :(

--------------

Good articles:

Web monitoring will lead to discrimination and blackmail

The surveillance state: growing under a coalition that pledged to reverse it

Fawkes 03-04-2012 22:29

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35409384)
If Theresa May wants easier access to our internet info, I think it's only fair to ask for hers...I mean, so long as she has nothing to hide, nothing to fear, then what's the problem ;)

WhatDoTheyKnow.com - "Theresa May's Internet History"

Guess what Matt?

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img] Refused.

Lord Nikon 05-04-2012 07:18

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin. (17 January 1706 – 17 April 1790)

Fawkes 05-04-2012 08:27

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Sound bites were so much better in the eighteenth century.

martyh 07-04-2012 22:46

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
http://news.sky.com/home/article/16204656

Quote:

Hackers group Anonymous claims it has taken down the Home Office website in a distributed denial-of-service attack.
A message on the group's Twitter account read: "TANGO DOWN - http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk For your draconian surveillance proposals! Told you to #ExpectUs!"
Quote:

The message appears to refer to plans to allow intelligence services to access data from people's emails, telephone calls and texts in "real time" without a warrant, which are expected to be unveiled in next month's Queen's Speech

Gary L 07-04-2012 23:05

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
They might use this as a reason to licence the internet or something. can't have people upsetting the government and seen as fighting back.

is this just the beginning you ask. yes I say.

martyh 07-04-2012 23:11

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35411265)
They might use this as a reason to licence the internet or something. can't have people upsetting the government and seen as fighting back.

is this just the beginning you ask. yes I say.

yep,they've probably done more harm than good

Hugh 08-04-2012 01:19

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35411265)
They might use this as a reason to licence the internet or something. can't have people upsetting the government and seen as fighting back.

is this just the beginning you ask. yes I say.

Since we didn't ask, your answer is both hypothetical and irrelevant...l:)

Fawkes 08-04-2012 17:01

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Hackers 'target Home Office site'

Peaceful protest of government plans to monitor the internet or playing right into the governments hands, justifying the very thing they are protesting against?

papa smurf 08-04-2012 17:07

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35411539)
Hackers 'target Home Office site'

Peaceful protest of government plans to monitor the internet or playing right into the governments hands, justifying the very thing they are protesting against?

or is the gov behind the hack :tiptoe:

Fawkes 08-04-2012 17:10

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35411544)
or is the gov behind the hack :tiptoe:

No, they don't work weekends.

Mactire 08-04-2012 20:42

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Prevention is better than cure.. is all Im sayin'

Stuart 08-04-2012 22:06

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
The more I think about this, the more I am concerned.

Not actually so much by this law, but by what happens afterward..

Why am I not concerned about this law? Simply because I don't believe it will work. Why don't I believe it will work? Well, the government has made it public. An act that will tell every terrorist group and criminal that their electronic communications are likely to be monitored. As such, they are going to switch to encrypted communications that are bounced off many proxies.

GCHQ may catch a few terrorists, but how many of the really competent (and therefore dangerous) ones are they likely to get?

No, my concern is this... They introduced the last law saying it was to catch terrorists. Clearly it hasn't worked as well as they want, as they want the new law. What will they want in three years time when this fails?

Hugh 09-04-2012 09:19

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mactire (Post 35411642)
Prevention is better than cure.. is all Im sayin'

Might be a bit difficult to close down the Internet......

Gary L 09-04-2012 09:46

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35411707)
As such, they are going to switch to encrypted communications that are bounced off many proxies.

Or just use an open wifi connection. there's 1,000's out there.

because it's being 'monitored' you'll probably get loads of people messing about by connecting to an open wifi and saying where they're going to put the bomb.

then we'll have that much distruption that someone will smack Dave's head and say DOH!

Tezcatlipoca 05-05-2012 13:15

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35409396)

The Home Office has failed to respond to my request, despite the law stating that they must respond promptly and within 20 working days.

So... I've requested an Internal Review ;)

WhatDoTheyKnow.com - "Theresa May's Internet History"

Fawkes 05-05-2012 14:53

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
That's so not like the Home Office to miss a deadline!

Tezcatlipoca 05-05-2012 15:24

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Yes, they do seem to have a problem with using calendars ;) :D

Damien 09-05-2012 11:45

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
The government has included this in the Queens Speech. They look like they are going to try and do it.

Anonymouse 09-05-2012 13:02

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35411707)
No, my concern is this... They introduced the last law saying it was to catch terrorists. Clearly it hasn't worked as well as they want, as they want the new law. What will they want in three years time when this fails?

Well spotted there, Stuart.

It hasn't worked at all as far as I can see. And, three years? I doubt they'll even wait that long. They'll have to get it in before the next general election, especially as I read somewhere that the Lib Dems are talking about leaving the coalition.

Tezcatlipoca 09-05-2012 18:40

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
So, the Home Office finally replied to my FOI request asking for Theresa May's Internet History... and surprise surprise, they claim they had no records of my original request! :shocked: Funny, that...

Quote:

We are confident that we have carried out the necessary checks and have found no records of your original request on any of our systems
As such, the clock has been reset, and they are taking the 4th of May as the official start date, which gives them another month to avoid answering...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35425424)
The government has included this in the Queens Speech. They look like they are going to try and do it.

Yep :rolleyes:

"Queen's Speech: Internet monitoring plan to have 'strict safeguards' "

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News
Plans to make it easier for the police and intelligence agencies to monitor e-mails, phone calls and internet use have been unveiled, but with promises of "strict safeguards".

The Draft Communications Bill would update existing procedures for allowing access to "vital" information.

This includes phone numbers and e-mail addresses but not content of messages.

Civil liberties groups said they were dismayed by the plan, which they described as a "snooper's charter".

(snip)

Bloody ridiculous, this and the porn blocking. One of the few things I liked about the Coalition two years ago was that it seemed that it may actually be better than New Labour regarding civil liberties... But noooo... they've turned out to be just another bunch of authoritarian nanny-state arses :rolleyes: :mad:

From the same article, David Davis (the only Tory MP I like or respect) had this to say...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News
And former shadow home secretary David Davis, a frequent critic of the extension of state powers, said the proposals would be costly to implement and were "very similar" to the last Labour government's plans for a communications database dropped following Tory opposition.

He told MPs it would be "pretty straightforward" for terrorists to avoid scrutiny under the plans by using proxy servers and multiple phones.

"We will create something which will not be effective against terrorism but which will be a general purpose surveillance on the entire nation."


Damien 09-05-2012 18:54

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35425660)
Bloody ridiculous, this and the porn blocking. One of the few good things about the Coalition two years ago was that it seemed that it may actually be better than New Labour regarding civil liberties... But noooo... they've turned out to be just another bunch of authoritarian nanny-state arses :rolleyes: :mad:
.

That it isn't it? It's not just that you expected better from the Liberal Democrats but both them and the Tories were strong critics of Labour's authoritarian policies. Now, just two years into power, they are advocating measures that go beyond that Labour tried to do. Their monitoring plan is the same policy they both attacked Labour for when in opposition, it goes further than that even.

Politicians and governments lying is nothing new but the sheer audacity of introducing the same policy so near to the time you opposed it is remarkable.

martyh 09-05-2012 19:01

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
I wonder if Labour will now reverse their stance officially and start oposing this,or will they stay quiet hoping that the coalition will do their dirty work for them

Fawkes 09-05-2012 20:07

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35425660)
Bloody ridiculous, this and the porn blocking. One of the few things I liked about the Coalition two years ago was that it seemed that it may actually be better than New Labour regarding civil liberties... But noooo... they've turned out to be just another bunch of authoritarian nanny-state arses :rolleyes: :mad:

Well Theresa May was against the nanny state in opposition in 2004:

Quote:

Mrs May said families did not need a nanny looking over their shoulder and "tutting disapprovingly every time they make a decision that does not meet with government approval".

Mrs May told BBC Radio 4's The World at One: "At least Mrs Hodge has admitted what many have been saying for years, that the government is intent on interfering and controlling every aspect of our lives.

"Families want the freedom to make their own choices over how they run their lives."

From news.bbc.co.uk

Osem 09-05-2012 20:13

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35425660)
So, the Home Office finally replied to my FOI request asking for [URL="http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/theresa_mays_internet_history"]Theresa May's Internet History[/URL]... and surprise surprise, they claim they had no records of my original request! :shocked: Funny, that...

They probably lost it... :D

devilincarnate 09-05-2012 20:22

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35425698)
They probably lost it... :D

It could be stuck in a queue:D:D

Damien 09-05-2012 21:12

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35425668)
I wonder if Labour will now reverse their stance officially and start oposing this,or will they stay quiet hoping that the coalition will do their dirty work for them

They haven't taken a clear position on it. Saying they need to see exactly what safeguards are in place yada yada yada. They aren't going to do anything, surprised Miliband can decide if he wants to get up or not in the morning. How he ever summoned the courage to stab his brother in the back is beyond me.

---------- Post added at 21:12 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fawkes (Post 35425690)
Well Theresa May was against the nanny state in opposition in 2004

I really wish there was a Daily Show in the UK. It's a goldmine of politicians completely reversing their positions for political rather than practical reasons. In fact you can look at the parties now and so often you see the Tories using the same arguments and sometimes policies, Labour used in power and Labour mounting the same criticisms of those arguments and policies that the Tories used.

Fawkes 09-05-2012 21:36

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35425745)
I really wish there was a Daily Show in the UK. It's a goldmine of politicians completely reversing their positions for political rather than practical reasons. In fact you can look at the parties now and so often you see the Tories using the same arguments and sometimes policies, Labour used in power and Labour mounting the same criticisms of those arguments and policies that the Tories used.


Sad but true, the British public are a bit like a battered house wife, the government promises to change but continues to beat us with the same tired policies. It's not even like there are plenty more fish in the sea, only sharks.

mertle 11-05-2012 01:03

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
see terresa may got herself in twist trying justify snoop technology. More gaffs she does less chance it will be implemented.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eresa-May.html

Fawkes 11-05-2012 04:58

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 35426229)
see terresa may got herself in twist trying justify snoop technology. More gaffs she does less chance it will be implemented.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...eresa-May.html

You see mertle, this is why it's important to check the facts first. A leason for us all there, not just Theresa.

Tezcatlipoca 11-05-2012 18:05

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...#comment-27957

FOI request update:

Unhappy with the Home Office's alleged inability to find any trace of my original request, I contacted WhatDoTheyKnow.com, and was told that "our email logs show that the original request message on 3rd April was accepted by the Home Office's advertised email servers that day".

As such, I have got back to the Home Office, and again requested an internal review, as I believe that my original request was received and therefore the Home Office has missed the original deadline required by law.

martyh 11-05-2012 19:40

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35426515)
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...#comment-27957

FOI request update:

Unhappy with the Home Office's alleged inability to find any trace of my original request, I contacted WhatDoTheyKnow.com, and was told that "our email logs show that the original request message on 3rd April was accepted by the Home Office's advertised email servers that day".

As such, I have got back to the Home Office, and again requested an internal review, as I believe that my original request was received and therefore the Home Office has missed the original deadline required by law.

You keep banging away Matt good on ya :tu:
but never forget that you are only a member of the public and therefore have no right to know what your government is doing

jempalmer 12-05-2012 04:28

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

FOI request update:

Unhappy with the Home Office's alleged inability to find any trace of my original request, I contacted WhatDoTheyKnow.com, and was told that "our email logs show that the original request message on 3rd April was accepted by the Home Office's advertised email servers that day".

As such, I have got back to the Home Office, and again requested an internal review, as I believe that my original request was received and therefore the Home Office has missed the original deadline required by law.
Keep going Matt :)

Tezcatlipoca 24-05-2012 18:40

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
The Home Office got back to me on the 17th, sticking with the "we didn't receive it" line.

I then received a final reply today, refusing my FOI request due to section 12 (cost). They said I could revise my request to bring it under the cost limit, & resubmit it, but that some of it (I'd assume most ;) ) may then be refused under section 40 (personal information) instead. This amuses me, as two main reasons I reject the Home Office's own snooping proposals are of course personal information and cost...

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...ncoming-284523

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...e%20Letter.pdf

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...etter.pdf.html

Chrysalis 25-05-2012 18:42

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Monitoring email isnt practical.

Most likely they will get the major isps to tow the line VM, BT etc. For them it will incredibly expensive to do, as there is huge volumes of email on the net and even only just logging headers for a few days takes a lot of resources, so what they would have to do for this legislation would be enormous cost. Probably paid for by some corp tax cuts.

However this is incredibly easy to evade, just host email overseas and in case broadband isp's try to sniff email ports then access email using encryption job done. Its also probable small email providers in the uk wont even bother with this. There is 100s of email providers in a very saturated market.

mertle 27-05-2012 14:09

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
found this on my googling. More sinister this.

http://www.euractiv.com/infosociety/...ns-news-512833

So basically there setting up E-ID electronic id system which then can track transactions.

therefore once E-ID in place they can facilitate monitoring.

So effectivaly its homeland security for internet.

Tezcatlipoca 01-06-2012 18:47

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Awesome. I've been name-checked by Hugh Muir in The Guardian regarding my FOI request for Theresa May's Internet History: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...jeremy-heywood

Gary L 01-06-2012 18:50

Re: Government to monitor Internet Use
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 35435784)
Awesome. I've been name-checked by Hugh Muir in The Guardian regarding my FOI request for Theresa May's Internet History: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2...jeremy-heywood

Well done, Dodd :)


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