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-   -   Crisis in the NHS (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33704264)

denphone 08-01-2017 13:46
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Thank you Damien.:)

Mick 08-01-2017 14:05
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
So yes, I am in agreement that the government has much to do, I do not just solely blame Unskilled migration for the NHS problems. Yes, I agree there is also many issues with our own British born residents, obesity, alcoholism, even the aging population. A lot of the beds are taken up by elderly people, waiting to be either sent home and cared for there, or waiting to go in to a care home.

The problems have not just suddenly appeared over night, they have been gradually getting worse and the problem has just been routinely ignored until where we are right now.

Also, the opposition does not get away with the blame either. Where is her Majesty's official opposition party ? Ok Corbyn has stated, Mrs. May, needs to answer for the crisis, but it is not enough, why are they not asking the most basic questions and demanding answers ? Call me ignorant but I had to look up who the current Shadow Health Secretary was (It's Jon Ashworth). Where is he? Why is he not putting forward an urgent question?

With such weak opposition, the government will just plough on regardless and while I support the Tories and voted for them in the last two General Elections, I still expect a strong opposition to keep them in line, ask the questions that need to be asked and that is not happening under the current leadership but that's a whole different topic.

RizzyKing 08-01-2017 18:40
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Health tourisim isn't regarded by most in the NHS as a major problem because overall it isn't it occurs in small clusters that have a devastating impact at a local level in my town there are few if any health tourists using our local NHS services. Go twenty miles up the road to Leicester and it's a very real problem and creates many many problems not just in terms of treatment costs but the number of staff that have quit in the last five years because they are fed up of having a family gang berate them and physically intimidate them, I've seen it personally many times and have seen looks of fear on the faces of staff.

Of course it isn't the whole cause of the problem but it is one i also agree that we need to drastically alter things in relation to alcohol which is a growing cost to the NHS as well as to society in general and I'd like a government to take a tobacco level stance in relation to alcohol. Something like the NHS never has a single cause for it's problems but we have to start accepting them all and dealing with them rather then the way things have happened in the past where everyone argues over which is the bigger problem and never addresses any of them.

TheDaddy 08-01-2017 18:57
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35879595)
I never mentioned A&E, I said going to hospital to receive treatment, you know the planned stuff. It still leaves a black hole either way.
Yes but according to your own link not that much of a black hole, one more the size of 200- 300 million or 0.3% of the nhs budget and the reason I mentioned A&E is because that's where the vast majority of the cash goes and you don't need a passport to visit there, this is all from your link btw, I'm surprised you're not more aware of its content

martyh 08-01-2017 19:05
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35879680)
Yes but according to your own link not that much of a black hole, one more the size of 200- 300 million or 0.3% of the nhs budget and the reason I mentioned A&E is because that's where the vast majority of the cash goes and you don't need a passport to visit there, this is all from your link btw, I'm surprised you're not more aware of its content
Mick doesn't do facts apparently

Mick 08-01-2017 19:10
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35879680)
Yes but according to your own link not that much of a black hole, one more the size of 200- 300 million or 0.3% of the nhs budget and the reason I mentioned A&E is because that's where the vast majority of the cash goes and you don't need a passport to visit there, this is all from your link btw, I'm surprised you're not more aware of its content
Well, clearly you are not because you have not even got the figures right, it's over £2 Billion for everything, not 300 million. :rolleyes:

TheDaddy 08-01-2017 19:31
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35879689)
Well, clearly you are not because you have not even got the figures right, it's over £2 Billion for everything, not 300 million. :rolleyes:
2 billion for treating people like British expats, foreign students paying through the nose already to be here etc etc, the actual figure for health tourists is according to your link 110- 280 million or 0.3% of the budget, it's all there in the very first paragraph of your link and as I've said repetedly the vast majority of this money is spent in A&E where we don't ask for passports.

Mick 08-01-2017 19:42
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35879693)
2 billion for treating people like British expats, foreign students paying through the nose already to be here etc etc, the actual figure for health tourists is according to your link 110- 280 million or 0.3% of the budget, it's all there in the very first paragraph of your link and as I've said repetedly the vast majority of this money is spent in A&E where we don't ask for passports.
You are not reading it right, check again.

Damien 08-01-2017 19:48
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
The fee for health tourists - those who come here to use the NHS - is 110- 280 million according to that link:

Quote:
'Deliberate' use of the NHS—use by those who come here specifically to receive free treatment or who come for other reasons but take advantage of the system when they're here—is hard to quantify. It's thought to be very roughly between £110 million and £280 million a year.
The £1.8 billion is that plus everything else. People who are here and end up needing treatment.

nomadking 08-01-2017 20:05
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Many of those that turn up at A&E know about their condition before they came here.
Quote:
A MATERNITY unit at an NHS hospital was used by around 900 pregnant health tourists last year — costing the taxpayer more than £4million in unpaid medical bills.
Officials say the deliveries from non-EU mums accounted for a fifth of all births at St George’s in Tooting, South London.
...
A further random sample referenced in the papers found 19 out of 20 patients referred by GPs to St George’s were not eligible for free care.
Quote:
NIGERIAN mum Bimbo Ayelabola flew to Britain to give birth to her quintuplets by caesarean section.
Her two-week stay in Homerton Hospital, East London, in 2011 cost the NHS around £200,000, but it is unlikely she will pay the sum back.
Quote:
One of the first letters I received was from a junior hospital doctor working close to Heathrow airport. ‘Every single week, I see people who have been flown in from all over the world with a variety of extremely serious health problems,’ he wrote. ‘Many of these people had to be wheelchaired on to the plane because they were too unwell to walk on board.
...
There is much evidence of identity fraud. In every maternity unit, identifying the blood group of the mother is obligatory. Over time, patients have given a registered name, address and NHS number — but are found to have different blood groups from the one on record. This is conclusive proof of an identity being shared.
...
There are similar abuses in oncology, HIV, infertility and in the treatment of renal failure. Renal dialysis is probably the most costly form of abuse because the treatment needs to take place three times a week and may result in a kidney transplant. I am told of one example where a patient arrived in renal failure on a visitor’s visa and was blue-lighted to a hospital for dialysis. At the last count, this person has had 849 dialysis sessions as well as numerous other treatments.
Quote:
An NHS number is a valuable commodity which confers legitimacy and has market value. But there is no black market for NHS numbers: they are given away free. Primary Care regulations encourage overseas visitors to take an NHS number.
...
An NHS number makes an ineligible patient almost invisible to the most vigilant OVO(Overseas Visitor Officers). The system is an open invitation to the world to abuse the NHS.
The list is rather extensive.

So many of the health tourists use backdoor methods or just simple fraud to avoid being included in the non-UK figures in the first place.

TheDaddy 08-01-2017 21:38
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35879694)
You are not reading it right, check again.
No need Damien did it for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35879696)
The fee for health tourists - those who come here to use the NHS - is 110- 280 million according to that link:


The £1.8 billion is that plus everything else. People who are here and end up needing treatment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35879698)
Many of those that turn up at A&E know about their condition before they came here.

The list is rather extensive.

So many of the health tourists use backdoor methods or just simple fraud to avoid being included in the non-UK figures in the first place.
They are included in the figures, it goes back to Mick saying some hospitals are going to start checking passports but I said it wouldn't do any good as most present themselves at A&E where there are no checks passport or otherwise

nomadking 08-01-2017 21:58
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35879705)
No need Damien did it for me

They are included in the figures, it goes back to Mick saying some hospitals are going to start checking passports but I said it wouldn't do any good as most present themselves at A&E where there are no checks passport or otherwise
They are not included in the figures. If they are easily getting hold of an NHS number, legally or illegally, then they are not in the figures. Likewise with those deemed an emergency, but have just got of the place. If just one hospital is out of pocket by £4 million, what would that total figure look like if you scale it up by just 100 hospitals?

Arthurgray50@blu 08-01-2017 22:30
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Lets put everything to one side.

The NHS is a fantastic Service, with great working staff from Consultants, Nurses and Rds.

THIS country can supply most of the staff for Hospitals. We do NOT need to rely on Migrants working in hospitals on cheap Labour to save Hospital management money.

The savings can come from pen pushers that go round the hospitals making sure that Nurse Barbie or Dr Doolittle is working ok.

Get a Matron to run the Hospital. Get rid of hospital Management who are simply ripping of the NHS.

The Matron would oversea what Nursing staff is needed for each ward. Go back to the days when the Hospital did there own cooking for patient meals.
Let the Hospital run there OWN car parking. Get rid of the Private companies that are ripping off the patients. The Matron would oversea Hospital cleaners - employed directly employed by the Hospital NOT companies.

Agency Nursing cost a forcing. Matron to call on the Nursing Colleges for staff in there final year of training. Most Nurses that are being trained, go overseas due to higher wages.

Hospital trusts are a disgrace. They are NOT thinking of patient care. They are thinking of what money they can save. For there annual holiday.

The NHS needs millions from the Government. And they should get it.

As treatment costs go up each year.
If patients want private care. They have to pay 60% up front. And that will change there mind about skipping the country and getting out and leaving the NHS with a big bill

ianch99 08-01-2017 23:44
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35879472)
If you want to blame the reason the NHS is in the state it is, blame the foreign freeloaders
Do you seriously believe the NHS is in the state it is in because of use by non-UK citizens or are you just trolling?

Mick 09-01-2017 00:55
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35879719)
Do you seriously believe the NHS is in the state it is in because of use by non-UK citizens ?
Absolutely ! Amongst the other thing I said as well that you have selectively ignored. Whose trolling again ? :rolleyes:


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