Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The paper also points out:

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yes, well, various politicians elected by certain generations were far too busy investing in themselves to invest in longer term infrastructure that may not have given such immediate returns and gratification.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Damien I'm sure it's going to be wonderful but do you think it'll ever be and/or remain affordable to ordinary people?

It's all very well people saying it doesn't have to be an either/or situation with the proposed link and the rest of the rail network but govt. spending is going to be under severe pressure for years and my feeling is that sooner or later the new link will arrive at the point which the rest of the network has been at for years and that is having to increase ticket prices again and again in order to cover costs.

IMHO the only way for a rail network to run affordably for the end user is for it to be subsidised out of general taxation - easy when things are booming but not so when every pound of expenditure is being scrutinised, savings are required and very tough decisions have to be made. No matter what direct or indirect benefits result from this link, the pressure will inevitably fall upon elected politicians to either spend more helping to run this link and the rest of the network or allow fares to rise to the point where many people can never afford to use the service. I think I know what they'll decide in order to stay in power - it's been happening for years and it isn't good news for passengers.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I did manage to find this which indicates its costing france 15billion GBP to lay 1250 miles of high speed track.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rail-in-france

So for our 32billion we getting approx 102 miles of track.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

A fair point. It should be asked just why it's so expensive both to build railways here and then to run them.

Network Rail are abysmal both in terms of value for money and, obviously, results.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.2499

Nice juggling of words, essentially though network rail is 68 - 80% more expensive than the top European infrastructure managers in the peer group, 40% less cost efficient being an obfuscated way of saying that things cost 80% more than they could.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I don't really know who 'ordinary' people are. If we presume they infrequent travellers then a one-off cost isn't especially expensive, if they are frequent travellers for business then they should be able to afford it, if they are frequent commuters then they need to revise where they live. The high speed network should encourage businesses to set up outside London.

I just did a comparison for the HS1 line, London to Ashford.

A single from Ashford International to London Victoria, normal train service, which takes 1 hour 20 minutes is £25.40.

A single from Ashford International to London St Pancras, the HS1 service, which takes 38 minutes is £30.40.

I said I was leaving today and did both a single and a return and the prices stay about the same. Try it out: http://www.thetrainline.com. Of course we can only speculate into the price of the new London to Birmingham HS2 line but the evidence from our only existing high speed line suggests that the cost isn't as prohibitive as being suggested.

More importantly we should connect up the country as best we can. A national high speed system could eventually mean that there is nowhere in the UK where a return journey cannot be done with a day. A fantastic prospect for businesses and tourists.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well ordinary people would be those for whom money is an object and they'd include families for whom car transport will fpr the forseeable future be a cheaper option simply because the cost is pretty much the same in a car for one person as it is for 5 or 7. They's also include commuters who aren't City fat cats and many of whom have had to move further away from their places or work in order to make hosuing affordable but have seen their travel costs escalate over the years.

If this link is going to be primarily used by people who use the service infrequently then it's never going to make any money. Businesspeople will pass any extra costs involved to their customers if they can as we all know but I'm sure our politicians and VIPs will enjoy luxury high speed travel at the taxpayer's expense.

Please don't get me wrong, I't be great for us to have a modern high speed network, I just don't think it's money well spent now given the likely state of the economy for many years to come. Unless it's heavily state subsidised I don't think it'll be affordable for the majority of people who'd otherwise wish to use it whether they be single people, families or tourists.

If, by some miracle, we get out of the financial doldrums my view on this matter might well be different but for now, sadly, I see it as a gigantic white elephant.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Money is an object for most people, we need to be more precise into who we are talking about. Yes for an entire family it will be hard to rival the cost of a car but I don't think they are the main demographic that will use the line. An entire family won't be making that trip on a daily or even weekly basis. Families also have other, practical, reasons for use a car when they have children.

I imagine the main demographic would be business travellers.

It can help our economy by encouraging growth, not least the benefits to various businesses and workers that will be building the line in the first place.

Also, as I said, the evidence of HS1 is that high speed tickets are about £5 more expensive.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The entire railway network is already State-subsidised.

Plus, I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding to attach the words "luxury high speed travel" together as if it's a given that just because it's new and fast, it's first class all the way. Ryanair isn't luxury, even though it's fast. Standard class on the WCML between London and Glasgow, the fastest rail we currently have, isn't luxury.

There will doubtless be a price premium for the benefit that is derived from the reduced journey time but Damien has already demonstrated that in the case of HS1 the price differential doesn't render that benefit beyond the means of everyone bar the super-rich. In fact, there is absolutely no reason to think that services on HS2 will be priced beyond everyone's means; the service simply won't be viable if it opens with sky-high fares.

Re your comment about families travelling with children - I don't think they're setting themselves up in competition with the family car. A car that's full is an efficient use of resources already.

---------- Post added at 10:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 ----------

10p per mile more expensive might be a more useful way of expressing that.

Assuming it can be extrapolated, that would make a Birmingham-London ticket about £10 more expensive on HS2 than on traditional 'snail rail' ... however once you get onto the mainline services (which Network Southeast, as it was once called, is not) there tends to be a lot more variability in fares so it might be difficult to compare.

No doubt some halfwitted hack will give it a try at some point though, inevitably comparing the cheapest possible London-Birmingham fare on the established services with the most expensive fare on HS2 in order to concoct the 'white elephant' story so beloved of our whingeing media.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I believe there is a fair bit of tunneling to do under the chilterns .But compared to the channel tunnel (9-10 billion) for about 25 miles it seems a little excessive .Unless the cost includes rolling stock and inflation,It would be mad to price the work at todays prices because the job isn't due to start for another 5 yrs and take upto 10yrs to complete .There will also be a lot of enviroment work to do as the area is already designated a "area of outstanding natural beauty"

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Damien - Forgive me but it's a hell of a lot of money to spend saving businesspeople 30 mins on a trip to Birmingham in the case of the first part of the network. Tourists would probably find hiring a car far more cost efficient given that when they get off their high speed train they have to take another form of transport to see the sights anyway.

Chris - Yes of course our railways are already subsidised but look at what the reality is despite that - fares going up by more than inflation year after year. IMHO and given that money will be short for years, this link will require far more subsidy at a time when politicians will be under public pressure to direct that money to other things like the NHS, schools etc. Guess what'll happen? It already has with the existing network. Fares won't start prohibitively high of course but there will be inexorable upwards pressure on them and the result will be that the link will become relatively underused because there isn't the funding (either through fares or subsidy). Sadly, I can't see it being anything other than a drain on the public purse, the only issue being how big a drain.

Guy, I don't think we're going to agree on this but I do think the concept is a good one. If the future was brighter and the money not an issue I'd be happy to see it built. Given where we are, however, I think there are going to be other priorities for the £billions and improving what we've got would be one of them because I think we can all agree that our transport infrastructure is in dire need of improvement.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yes, I have seen this before. The question is, obviously, why do we find this acceptable and what if anything is done about it?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well business people are frequent customers for rail links between cities. The idea is not to make their life easier, not primarily, but helping businesses prosper. Birmingham would be greatly served by being 'closer' to London. As for Tourists, they wouldn't find it easy navigating a city in a car so they would have to opt for public transport within those cities anyway.

Anyway, who cares if some people would still find it more economical to drive? The idea isn't to stop the use of the road network. Hopefully it will reduce the amount of cars on the road anyway.

This isn't chucking money anyway, we'll get some of it back, mostly indirectly if it succeeds in improving the prospects for businesses.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I agree with the Fact the we need HS2, But I would make some changes to the plan:

1. Add Stations at Stoke-on-Trent, the East Midlands and the Chilterns

2. Extend the Manchester Branch to Glasgow

3. Extend the Leeds Branch to Edinburgh (via Newcastle)

4. Add a branch to Liverpool

5. Build Crossrail 2 as part of the plan, as well as upgrade trasports links in areas were HS2 service to maximise the benifits

6. build it in one phase

7. Try to open it by 2020, not 2026!

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

You're a genius, I hope whoever gets the contract signs you up as chief planner.