New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I think building infrastructure is a good idea but I can't help thinking the final cost of this project will mushroom out of control and that because of that the price of using the service will be beyond most people's reach and require massive subsidies to make affordable. A sort of state owned Concord on tracks if you like but with relatively minor journey time savings.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

As with all government projects the final figure will be think of a number and double it .My main concern is spending that kind of money on about 100miles of new track ,i just don't think it will be worth the saved 1/2 hr travel time

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

While I'd agree that a massive expansion of social housing would currently seem like a better use of resources to get the UK economy back into shape, we need to be thinking far more long-term.

In 20 or 30 years, when accessible petrol and diesel supplies have been exhausted and private car owners can't afford the rocketing price of hydrogen, perhaps our grandchildren will thank us for investing in extra train lines?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

While the reduced travel time will help widen the commutable belt around London and hopefully take a little housing pressure off the southeast, the main benefit of building the stretch to Bitmingham is that it is essential to get that in first if the line is ultimately going to get to Manchester and, hopefully, Scotland.

Sadly the project is already subject to a lot of typically British short-term ism, nimbyism and general whingeing. Frankly this is the sort of large-scale infrastructure project we should be pursuing to the greatest possible extent, now of all times.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I think we all agree the cost of this is going to be huge but unless it's affordable then it won't be fully utilised will it? It seems to me that the only option will be for the line to be subsidised in some way and that opens up all sorts of problems both with the taxpayer and the various other rail franchises which aren't subsidised but may suffer competitive disadvantage in one form or another. IMHO the railways should be state owned but even that's proved hugely troublesome in the past as we all know.

Set against a backdrop of already soaring rail fares, I can't see how the maths for this adds up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16390608

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

No, there's been absolutely no persuasive evidence that this is worthwhile.

It'll be immensely expensive to travel on, a rich persons' railway paid for by every tax payer.

It's the Tories' vanity project, nothing more. Far cheaper works would deliver results far quicker and with far higher value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2#Journey_times

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Is the need going to be there though?.More and more people are moving towards working from home or at least a base outside of london .Would it not be better for the government to invest heavily in fibre optic BB to assist this than a limited train service that will only benefit a few .I am more inclined to think that a better line from Scotland to Birmingham may be more beneficial .
I don't use trains anymore so my views are that of a person looking from the outside .Regular comuters may of course feel totally different

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Last night on Iain Dales phone in show on LBC radio he was taking calls on this subject,a train driver who works on national rail phoned in he was saying he thought it wasteful to build this line,he was saying a lot of the current lines are in such a state of repair that there is a lot of speed restrictions over the current network being applied,for instance over many sections of lines trains go at 40-50 mph instead of the faster speeds they are capable of.

He suggested that the money be spent on the current network to allow trains to travel faster on the infrastructure we now have,instead of ripping up more countryside to build a line where possibly its not needed.

His idea sounded good to me and as a driver he must have some idea.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Sorry, that's like saying a bus driver should be the source of knowledge on national Motorway Infrastructure and traffic patterns and flows, imho.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

for years the network has had to adopt a "patch and make do" approach ,this was largely due to financial restrictions .Now that finance will be available for a new line ,upto 32billion over about 15yrs i agree that existing lines could and should be upgraded instead to give us a quality network nationwide instead of a quality line used by a few

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Not quite Hugh this driver obviously drives over large sections of rail infrastructure and i do not think you can dismiss his views so easily where speed restrictons apply,i travel on the Norwich section of line and can tell you the train on that line has lots of speed restrictions alone.

Its is anknowledged that rail investment is not what it should be,by upgrading the current infrastructure it may be possible to shave 20 mins off the journey times now without the need for a posssible white elephant.

Has a review been done to find out if upgrading of the current network would do the trick i wonder.

Or is this a project to leave a "legacy" for the government minister concerned.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

but the same driver will know how fast his bus can go on a poor road ,equally a train will know when the speed has been restricted because of poor line quality

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yes i think you are right i would not mind so much if all that had been done to maximise the existing infrastructure had been but it seems more could be done for that sort of money without ripping an area of outstanding natural beauty up.


And yes it may be a line for the well off only to use at a high cost,but in order to shave just 20-30 mins off a journey that may well be possible with the money spent within the existing structure.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well.

I would expect the train driver/bus driver to know the tactical impact of issues (slow trains, hold-ups and delays), but not the strategic reasons for them (major infrastructure refreshes required, the difference in costs between upgrading/making do/completely rebuilding), or the political, economic, and social impact of any of those options, and the prioritisation of those.

It can often cost more to try and upgrade existing lines, with the impact on services whilst those upgrades are happening, than to build new. For instance, we just had to decide between refreshing/upgrading a 12 year old datacentre, or outsource, or build new (we actually built new, and it was cheaper than refreshing, without the risk of the centre upgrade negatively affecting existing systems and services - now we have implemented this, we can refresh the old one for Disaster Recovery).

I see the HS2 as the equivalent of the Motorway system - most people said we didn't need it, but where would we be without it now?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

We need to drag our infrastructure into the current century.

It's a good idea, let's get on and build it and expand it.

I'd love to see a HS line into every major city.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

As a country that practically invented the railways we would do well to go with the times rather than rely on antiquated and underfunded infrastructure.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I would question how a couple of high speed lines built at enormous expense would achieve that over a more widespread modernisation and upgrade programme.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I could buy into that point of view Hugh if there was a feasability study done to say that is the case it may well be,if there is the government should publish and we could make our own minds up,i do buy the point of view its sometimes cheaper to build from new then upgrade all i am concerned about is this is done properly before any digging up of the area concerned takes place.

And if there is another way explore it at the moment we still live in a green and quite pleasant land and i would hate that to change unessasarily, before all options are sounded out.

I might even be persuaded if it would halve journey times but to just shave a few minutes off makes me hope the government will at least take a fresh look Hugh.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

To be honest, I haven't looked into the details of this. I just think it's a pretty sad state of affairs that the UK has pretty much the most expensive railways in the world, and just one puny high speed rails link when the French, Spanish and Germans have no problems building a high speed rail network. You'd think we could take a bit more pride in our rail network, instead of underinvesting for years and then having to pay megabucks for cobbled together maintenance and 'upgrades'.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I think many years of sad decline have put our once great network in a state not disimilar to our Victorian sewers and therein lies the problem. If the investment had been put in over the decades since the war we'd already have a much better network and there'd be no need to commit what's now a vast sum in one hit as it were to build this one new route.

Yes it'd be great to have a shiny new rail link but we are where we are both historically and financially however so, on balance I tend to think the money would be better spent improving what we've got which we all know still needs investment badly and already costs a packet to use.

One thing's for certain and that is that if this thing is built it is going to cost a fortune to run and maintain so if it doesn't make a profit (and I don't think any national networks do) it's going to cost the taxpayer a fortune forevermore and could well have an adverse effect on investment in the rest of the rail network.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I totally agree.During the construction of this link (should it go ahead) i fear that more people will be put off rail travel because of high costs and low quality and only lowering prices to such an extent as to not be profitable will temp them back leaving the new link under used and un profitable

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Duncan Barkes now debating this on LBC radio with the tag line 32 billion to save 23 minutes on a journey,which he reakons will be nearer 40 billion with the usual over runs.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Which is, of course, entirely to miss the point.

Birmingham - London is the foundation of a wider national high-speed rail system. The Preston Bypass achieved little by itself but these days it's right in the middle of the M6. It proved the concept, it set the standards and is today a vital part of our national transport infrastructure.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well the debate on the radio is expanding for those that care to listen.

In times of austerity when we are told there is no money where is 32-40 billion coming from surely there must be better things.

Also the butchering of the chiltern countryside.

It will cost many billions for HS2 to be part of any national infrastructure .

Like the present railway system it may never pay for itself due to cost and the taxpayer may for ever more be liable for huge subsidies is a major fear also on this one and the expense of a ticket may mean few will use it..

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I think it is the point .Should we use all the money and have one link between London and Birmingham taking 15-20yrs to complete leaving the rest of the network to run into disrepair or do we spread the money over the existing network achieving similar if not better results .I see no point in having a super dooper high speed link between 2 cities if the rest of the network is rubbish

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

It's not either/or....

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

actually your probably right ,if the new link doesn't get the go ahead the money will be diverted and not into the existing network

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I think thats probably the top and bottom of it.;)

Although if we have no money i wonder where it was coming from in the first place.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Does it have to pay for itself? Does the road network pay for itself? The point of State-sponsored infrastructure developments is their wider enabling effect on the economy, not that they should be profitable in and of themselves.

I'm not certain that a convincing argument has been made that spending money on HS2 means not spending it on the existing WCML.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

i think the road network probably does pay for itself chris its often stated the amount collected in road tax exceeds that spent on the roads by some so it goes without saying some is filtered into general taxation pot.

Yes chris i agree with state sponsered infrastruture where a case has been made without exception,i just think in HS2s case it has not been made just why is it so desperately needed.

Its going to be out of range of most ordinary folk and will business users make the required use its hard to tell.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

lets face it ,by the time it's finished it may be out of date ,how is it going to take so long to be built ?the french built an entire high speed network in 20yrs

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

And look at the value that has added...

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

don't follow you hugh :confused:
.....value added to what ?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Business and tourism travel (the TGV).

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

yes totally agree ,difference is though we've left building our high speed network a bit late .France started theirs in in 1976 with LN1 opening in 1981 with LN8 opening in 2011 .We have given ourselves a time scale of "sometime between 2016 and 2026" for 100miles :rolleyes:.... I think we have missed the boat .

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

A private eye article I read back in the 90s actually said that although the treasury's accounting processes made working out what tax paid for what extremely difficult, there was actually some evidence that the tax being paid in the 90s on the road did not cover the costs of running them, and the treasury was diverting money from other areas (such as the Railways) to fund road projects.

Think about it. It's possible. While you would pay more in taxes on the petrol you use, road tax is the same whether you drive 1 mile a year or 1,000,000.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I was on the high speed rail link connecting London to Kent today. I've been on it before and it really is very good. Comfortable, modern and fast. I had experience going the same route while at University, before the HS1 was finished, and it's significantly better now so whenever I make that trip I always take it.

I can't understand why we shouldn't roll out the network across the country. It's fantastic. Imagine the benefits of the major cities and commuter hubs being connected by high speed rail, suddenly the entire country will be within a short amount of time from each other.

I see people saying that it 'only' saves 23 minutes. That isn't an insignificant amount of time to save for that journey. If we were talking about London to Glasgow then maybe but saving 23 minutes on the relatively short Journey to Birmingham is noticeable.

The only problem I can see if we're too slow in building it. We should have started building already and be going to Manchester now, with Birmingham a mere milestone along the way.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The last time i used a train on a regular basis was going from london to dover (i was in the army at the time in '81) and that trip was a proper chore ,so yes i can understand the benefits of the HS1 ,but with this being Britain it will be the next century before we get a decent national network such as france and we may be using flying cars by then :)

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

We shouldn't be resigned to such a fate, we should press ahead with plans to bring High Speed rail nationwide as soon as possible. A epic undertaking to improve british transport by providing a new, modern backbone to the network.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I couldn't agree more and i would be 100%behind the London -Birmingham line if there was a commitment to others .On it's own it is meaningless .Maybe in 50yrs time Britain may have one but the reality is we need it now within 10yrs

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Why are we not investing in a maglev.. its half the price

http://www.maglevuk.org/

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

32billion for a single rail link is way excessive, I am normally an advocate of investment but this is just stupid. So its saves 49mins for a service how much of the population use?

Arent this government supposed to be reigning back spending? so how did this slip though.

I can also forsee ticket prices been raised to try and get the money back which could lead to empty trains as people get priced out.

Who is likely to use this service aside from business people? as normal people are already getting priced out of trains as is.

The modern era actually has video conferencing for meetings as well.

So cuts to disabled, social care, welfare etc. Country cant afford it.
Investments to aid a short rail link that will primarily benefit business people.

Investment in a nationwide fibre network would make more sense allowing better video conferencing so people dont need to travel in the first place.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Again. The time saved is not insignificant. It can be the difference between a comfortable trip and a awkward one. The difference between a business deciding being based outside of London isn't a disadvantage and deciding that it's just not close enough to their clients.

I used HS1 yesterday. I have used it a number of times and I have used the Eurostar quite a bit as well.

It also has European rivals who do have High Speed Rail. The cool thing is once connected we can be part of a High Speed network across the continent. Manchester to Paris, London to Berlin and so on.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

That may be Damien but the cost is obscene. I would be more inclined to belly it if it was the entire rail network but its just one small part of it which it seems you happen to be lucky to live somewhere where you would use it and able to afford it. I would love to see a cost breakdown as this smacks of some kind of deal to net a few people some easy riches.

If germany and france have built much more I am interested in what their's cost as a comparison.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The paper also points out:

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yes, well, various politicians elected by certain generations were far too busy investing in themselves to invest in longer term infrastructure that may not have given such immediate returns and gratification.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Damien I'm sure it's going to be wonderful but do you think it'll ever be and/or remain affordable to ordinary people?

It's all very well people saying it doesn't have to be an either/or situation with the proposed link and the rest of the rail network but govt. spending is going to be under severe pressure for years and my feeling is that sooner or later the new link will arrive at the point which the rest of the network has been at for years and that is having to increase ticket prices again and again in order to cover costs.

IMHO the only way for a rail network to run affordably for the end user is for it to be subsidised out of general taxation - easy when things are booming but not so when every pound of expenditure is being scrutinised, savings are required and very tough decisions have to be made. No matter what direct or indirect benefits result from this link, the pressure will inevitably fall upon elected politicians to either spend more helping to run this link and the rest of the network or allow fares to rise to the point where many people can never afford to use the service. I think I know what they'll decide in order to stay in power - it's been happening for years and it isn't good news for passengers.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I did manage to find this which indicates its costing france 15billion GBP to lay 1250 miles of high speed track.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...rail-in-france

So for our 32billion we getting approx 102 miles of track.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

A fair point. It should be asked just why it's so expensive both to build railways here and then to run them.

Network Rail are abysmal both in terms of value for money and, obviously, results.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.2499

Nice juggling of words, essentially though network rail is 68 - 80% more expensive than the top European infrastructure managers in the peer group, 40% less cost efficient being an obfuscated way of saying that things cost 80% more than they could.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I don't really know who 'ordinary' people are. If we presume they infrequent travellers then a one-off cost isn't especially expensive, if they are frequent travellers for business then they should be able to afford it, if they are frequent commuters then they need to revise where they live. The high speed network should encourage businesses to set up outside London.

I just did a comparison for the HS1 line, London to Ashford.

A single from Ashford International to London Victoria, normal train service, which takes 1 hour 20 minutes is £25.40.

A single from Ashford International to London St Pancras, the HS1 service, which takes 38 minutes is £30.40.

I said I was leaving today and did both a single and a return and the prices stay about the same. Try it out: http://www.thetrainline.com. Of course we can only speculate into the price of the new London to Birmingham HS2 line but the evidence from our only existing high speed line suggests that the cost isn't as prohibitive as being suggested.

More importantly we should connect up the country as best we can. A national high speed system could eventually mean that there is nowhere in the UK where a return journey cannot be done with a day. A fantastic prospect for businesses and tourists.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well ordinary people would be those for whom money is an object and they'd include families for whom car transport will fpr the forseeable future be a cheaper option simply because the cost is pretty much the same in a car for one person as it is for 5 or 7. They's also include commuters who aren't City fat cats and many of whom have had to move further away from their places or work in order to make hosuing affordable but have seen their travel costs escalate over the years.

If this link is going to be primarily used by people who use the service infrequently then it's never going to make any money. Businesspeople will pass any extra costs involved to their customers if they can as we all know but I'm sure our politicians and VIPs will enjoy luxury high speed travel at the taxpayer's expense.

Please don't get me wrong, I't be great for us to have a modern high speed network, I just don't think it's money well spent now given the likely state of the economy for many years to come. Unless it's heavily state subsidised I don't think it'll be affordable for the majority of people who'd otherwise wish to use it whether they be single people, families or tourists.

If, by some miracle, we get out of the financial doldrums my view on this matter might well be different but for now, sadly, I see it as a gigantic white elephant.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Money is an object for most people, we need to be more precise into who we are talking about. Yes for an entire family it will be hard to rival the cost of a car but I don't think they are the main demographic that will use the line. An entire family won't be making that trip on a daily or even weekly basis. Families also have other, practical, reasons for use a car when they have children.

I imagine the main demographic would be business travellers.

It can help our economy by encouraging growth, not least the benefits to various businesses and workers that will be building the line in the first place.

Also, as I said, the evidence of HS1 is that high speed tickets are about £5 more expensive.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The entire railway network is already State-subsidised.

Plus, I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding to attach the words "luxury high speed travel" together as if it's a given that just because it's new and fast, it's first class all the way. Ryanair isn't luxury, even though it's fast. Standard class on the WCML between London and Glasgow, the fastest rail we currently have, isn't luxury.

There will doubtless be a price premium for the benefit that is derived from the reduced journey time but Damien has already demonstrated that in the case of HS1 the price differential doesn't render that benefit beyond the means of everyone bar the super-rich. In fact, there is absolutely no reason to think that services on HS2 will be priced beyond everyone's means; the service simply won't be viable if it opens with sky-high fares.

Re your comment about families travelling with children - I don't think they're setting themselves up in competition with the family car. A car that's full is an efficient use of resources already.

---------- Post added at 10:05 ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 ----------

10p per mile more expensive might be a more useful way of expressing that.

Assuming it can be extrapolated, that would make a Birmingham-London ticket about £10 more expensive on HS2 than on traditional 'snail rail' ... however once you get onto the mainline services (which Network Southeast, as it was once called, is not) there tends to be a lot more variability in fares so it might be difficult to compare.

No doubt some halfwitted hack will give it a try at some point though, inevitably comparing the cheapest possible London-Birmingham fare on the established services with the most expensive fare on HS2 in order to concoct the 'white elephant' story so beloved of our whingeing media.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I believe there is a fair bit of tunneling to do under the chilterns .But compared to the channel tunnel (9-10 billion) for about 25 miles it seems a little excessive .Unless the cost includes rolling stock and inflation,It would be mad to price the work at todays prices because the job isn't due to start for another 5 yrs and take upto 10yrs to complete .There will also be a lot of enviroment work to do as the area is already designated a "area of outstanding natural beauty"

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Damien - Forgive me but it's a hell of a lot of money to spend saving businesspeople 30 mins on a trip to Birmingham in the case of the first part of the network. Tourists would probably find hiring a car far more cost efficient given that when they get off their high speed train they have to take another form of transport to see the sights anyway.

Chris - Yes of course our railways are already subsidised but look at what the reality is despite that - fares going up by more than inflation year after year. IMHO and given that money will be short for years, this link will require far more subsidy at a time when politicians will be under public pressure to direct that money to other things like the NHS, schools etc. Guess what'll happen? It already has with the existing network. Fares won't start prohibitively high of course but there will be inexorable upwards pressure on them and the result will be that the link will become relatively underused because there isn't the funding (either through fares or subsidy). Sadly, I can't see it being anything other than a drain on the public purse, the only issue being how big a drain.

Guy, I don't think we're going to agree on this but I do think the concept is a good one. If the future was brighter and the money not an issue I'd be happy to see it built. Given where we are, however, I think there are going to be other priorities for the £billions and improving what we've got would be one of them because I think we can all agree that our transport infrastructure is in dire need of improvement.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yes, I have seen this before. The question is, obviously, why do we find this acceptable and what if anything is done about it?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well business people are frequent customers for rail links between cities. The idea is not to make their life easier, not primarily, but helping businesses prosper. Birmingham would be greatly served by being 'closer' to London. As for Tourists, they wouldn't find it easy navigating a city in a car so they would have to opt for public transport within those cities anyway.

Anyway, who cares if some people would still find it more economical to drive? The idea isn't to stop the use of the road network. Hopefully it will reduce the amount of cars on the road anyway.

This isn't chucking money anyway, we'll get some of it back, mostly indirectly if it succeeds in improving the prospects for businesses.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I agree with the Fact the we need HS2, But I would make some changes to the plan:

1. Add Stations at Stoke-on-Trent, the East Midlands and the Chilterns

2. Extend the Manchester Branch to Glasgow

3. Extend the Leeds Branch to Edinburgh (via Newcastle)

4. Add a branch to Liverpool

5. Build Crossrail 2 as part of the plan, as well as upgrade trasports links in areas were HS2 service to maximise the benifits

6. build it in one phase

7. Try to open it by 2020, not 2026!

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

You're a genius, I hope whoever gets the contract signs you up as chief planner.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Thanks for the complement!

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

No its not chucking money away. I don't think I've said or implied that. I'm merely making the point that at this time the financial implications of this have to be very carefully considered and IMHO they don't add up and there isn't any prospect of a financial surplus to plunder. We all know massive cuts are coming and the electorate won't much like vast sums of money being allocated to this over the years if other budgets are suffering at the same time. If things go wrong I fear we'll wind up with the railway equivalent of funding crisis hit PFI hospitals - great facilities which are rapidly becoming too expensive to run. If we'd won the 2016 or 2020 Olympics instead of 2012, I think the same would be being said about those now such tough financial choices are having to be made.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Your right is it a big risk, but if we do not get HS2 then we need to further upgrade the WCML as soon as possible!

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I think this is a good time to be making such investments/ It will lead to more jobs and businesses right away amongst those building the new rail line and it may increase confidence amongst foreign firms that the UK will continue to be a good place to do business. Birmingham itself should see a boost from the knowledge that London will soon be closer. I have seen many arguments that infrastructural investments are more effective in times of slow economic growth, likely because of the reasons I mentioned.

Besides, the sooner we get started the sooner it will get completed. The estimates for us finishing just the Birmingham branch are ridiculous enough as it is. At this rate most of us will be dead before they complete the Manchester branch. We spend far too long on these things and think up many reasons why we shouldn't do them, we should be more proactive. A lot of mainland Europe have these trains, America is starting to think about it and parts of Asia just got on with it ages ago. There isn't any point putting it off longer. Let's go.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Now all they need to do is upgrade local tranport links at the same time, extend HS2 to scotland and start earlier!

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I agree with that but i am wary that this is the best use of the money .We do need more job creation but we need it now not in 5-10 yrs .Other shorter term projects may be of more benefit

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The jobs created in building the track will be more immediate.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Infrastructure certainly isn't a bad thing to be investing in now but there are plenty of other infratsructural issues which would could be tackled with this money and create jobs etc., like getting the existing network up to scratch which might not be quite as groundbraking and high profile but could benefit more people over a wider area. Just my opinion of course... ;)

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

You're right in principle but bringing the whole network up to scratch will probably cost more like £200 billion +. :erm:

A couple of High speed rail links are a good start,couple that with new runways at Gatwick and Heathrow,plus a new Airport in the Thames estuary and we may just be ok economically for another couple of decades... ;)

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

You not concerned we seem to paying ,uch more per mile than france did?

The concerns are multiple.

The fact I have used trains and the service wasnt bad enough that I ever thought it needs billions spent on it. France and Germany have more land mass so arguably it benefits them more. a 20min saving on a journey is nothing significant, There is a few specific scenarios where it could be a saver but typically the person can just catch an earlier train.
The fact some cuts have been made elsewhere and in some cases severely, the merits of business men getting 20mins of their journey time over the vulnerable getting proper care and support. More to the point we have had cameron saying we all in it together and a message put out that the country was close to going bust unless sharp action was taken quickly, this hardly supports that message and loses the government a lot of credibility.
Trains are already out pricing many people and this will outprice even more. 32billion investment in what will primarily benefit business men who are paying less tax due to tax cuts. The business case is very poor.

I can think of many better ways to spend 32billion which the government has now shown they got. Building more houses, restoring welfare cuts, building a nationwide fibre network, even tax cuts I would support over this.

Some middle men somewhere are going to get very rich out of this.

Not to mention europe's investment seemed to be done in earlier years before the recession took hold more, the article I pulled was from 2009. This rail link should be costing 1 billion not 32billion.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The government haven't got 32billion ,they will have to raise 32billion over the next 10-15yrs.It's totally incorrect to assume that 32billion is sitting in the government vaults waiting to be spent .Most of that money will be borrowed .It is more correct to say that the government can afford to spend the money because savings made mean we can afford to borrow the money

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I didnt say it was sitting in vaults, I said they had it available to spend, 2 different things.

Does borrowing make it ok? wasnt you advocating reducing government debt in other threads about welfare cuts? Or is it fine when it sspent on something you want.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I don't know the differences between building a rail network in France and building one in the UK. It isn't the same country, there may be different challenges. I suspect the spending stats have been skewed.

20 minutes can be significant. It can tip a journey from something that is a inconceivable and uncomfortable to something that people don't think twice about doing. More importantly this is simply a step into a national high speed network and when we're reaching places like Manchester then the time saved will really begin to mount up. As I mentioned before it's possible to have a situation where a large amount of the population can comfortably do a return trip to one of these cities and back within a single day.

But it's dishonest to frame the argument as saving businessmen 20 minutes of their time, that's not what anyone in favour of high speed rail has been making that argument. Again, this is a step towards a national high speed network with Birmingham being a stop along the way to Manchester. We talk of the time saved and how this will be of benefit to commerce and tourism - as well as simply useful to the rest of us.

This is being seen as an investment. There is also a difference between one-off expenses, such as building infrastructure, and cutting down on services. The cuts have been aimed at reducing the deficit, this train network would simply add to the debt.

It's not poor. You just say it's poor because your making attacking a strawman. I have also provided evidence that the current high speed network isn't dramatically more expensive than the standard service.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Tax cuts?

Did I miss something?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

No you didn't you said the have it ,
"I can think of many better ways to spend 32billion which the government has now shown they got"

A large chunk of government spending is borrowed money and yes it is fine as long as we can afford it .The reason we can afford it is because of cuts being made in other aspects of government spending

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Campaign for the HSR

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I wonder how much heat this would take off LHR. I use the Manchester - LHR shuttle on a regular basis but given the choice I would much rather jump on a high-speed train directly into the city rather than faff about at those two awful airports.

I suppose the key would be that the toc didn't charge the same peak-time comedy prices that Virgin do... 200 quid (in fact I've seen it as much as 375!) to be crammed like a sardine under some sweaty armpit while half of the train is made up of empty first-class carriages.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

That isnt saying they got it in a vault, thats saying they got it available to spend on budgets.

What you wont admit is you think the government should cut back on things you dont support under the guise they cant afford it and then when its something you support its ok to borrow and splash the cash. You assuming this is been borrowed when its quite possible its simply been funded from cuts in other departments.

The message is this.

The government cant afford to spend 30 billion on social services, welfare, housing, prisons, border security, police, pensions amongst other things. Yet they can afford it to spend it on 100 miles of rail track. Credibility out of the window.

The fact is and it is a fact, the government sold us the cuts were been used to reduce a deficit, not to shift money to other projects. Especially projects that are clearly overpriced and some contractors will be making a nice wad of cash from it.

Freedom of information request will be going in to see what companies are doing this expensive work and if any have ties to political donations. I expect to be told it cant be provided due to commercial sensitivity tho.

20 mins is a luxury small boost to a journey its not a game breaker. Yes it is nice to have a quicker journey, however not at that cost. Modern business uses video conferencing now days, if they wanted to invest in making business meetings more practical then that would have made more sense and probably cheaper for benefiting more of the country as well. This just benefits london and birmingham plus whats in between. What is sad as well is that people will be paying twice, once via taxation and again via higher fares.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

From the link two posts above yours.

Myth-busting

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Only to people that don't understand the difference between debt and deficit. If your out of work you cut back on monthly expenses but you wouldn't think twice about spending money on a train ticket to enable you to get to job interviews.

The higher fares are not that much higher and this doesn't just benefit London to Birmingham, other trains going north can use the high speed rail up to Birmingham making trips to Manchester, Leeds and more faster.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

QFT.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...thusiasts.html

The Dutch aren't renowned for infrastructure failures and I fear we're in for more of the same if this goes ahead. It will almost certainly overrun, the final bill will be far more than predicted and if the pricing is high enough to make some return then only the relatively well off will be prepared to use it. It just doesn't add up and I can't see how it wouldn't make more sense to spend the vast sums involved, creating jobs and stimulating growth over a much wider area by improving our existing network for both passengers and freight.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Did a report by Network Rail not conclude that attempting to upgrade the existing WCML would not have the effect the opponents of HS2 have claimed for it?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I wouldn't be surprised and both sides will be making claims that can't really be proved. I dare say the Dutch govt. and transport operators made a whole lot of claims about all the pros of their scheme, the main one of which (i.e. actual usage) hasn't materialised in reality.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

If they reorgnised services on WCML so they do not conflict with HS2 then it would be ok to build HS2, what they could do for example:

London-Birmingham-Wolverhampton should now end end in Coventry (or maybe Wolverhampton) but should not stop at Birmingham

London-Manchester should be cut short and end at Stoke-upon-Trent

London-Glasgow should be combined with Birmingham to Glasgow/Edinburgh

all other routes will remain the same but, they might operate under a reduced timetable and they might no longer servie Birmingham New street/Birmingham International

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

On the other hand TGV in France has been a success. Generated over €1 billion for the state owned railway (SNCF) in a single year, the initial success led not only to France expanding the network where they could but for other European countries to take up the network. Mainland Europe is now connected via a network of high speed lines. We have the connection to Paris, a German rail company (English ones lack the foresight, competence or skill it would seem) are planning a London to Frankfurt line. The French had the foresight to start this investment in 1981! So we're only 30 years behind.

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

BTW The government has now officially approved it.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The sooner we get HS2 the better, it would be of more benifit to the North of England than the Failed Regional Eurostar Project!

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

BBC Map and estimated journey times.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interac...ap-interactive

London to Birmingham:

Currently 1 hour 24 minutes, would be shortened to 45 minutes. A saving of 39 minutes.

London to Manchester:

Currently 2 hours 8 minutes, would be shortened to 1 hour 38 minutes. A saving of 30 minutes. Although from 2032 it would be 1 hour 8 minutes, a saving of an entire hour.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

And maybe that's exactly what's wrong Damien - we've missed the boat and what should have been done when financial and other conditions were far better than they are now simply wasn't.

Furthermore, the French network has never suffered from the huge legal and other problems that getting planning permission requires in the UK so, mile for mile, their network was built far quicker and cheaper than ours will be and has had the benefit of vast sums of govt. aid over decades. What we know is that in Holland, the nearest equivalent of what's being proposed here, completed only a couple of years ago (as opposed to decades ago as in the case of much of the French network) is failing and already requiring lots more taxpayers money just to keep it running full of empty seats. That seems to be a far more realistic comparison.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I would think twice actually.

Didnt you say they £5 higher? thats significant.

On a train journey from london to say glasgow, the 20mins is even less relevant.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

This is of course all based upon the drivers not being members of Bob Crow's union.... :D

Possibly that should be written into the contract.... ;)

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Oh dear. The sad thing is we have already had a bailout before on rail but it seems havent learned from that lesson.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Osem, you're cherry-picking the evidence you want to accept and declaring it "more realistic" because it tallies with what you have already decided is going to be the fate of HS2 ;)

Incidentally, part of the problem these things cost so much more, mile for mile, in this country, is because of the Nimbys and the nay-sayers who insist on objecting their way to the highest court in the land before accepting the democratic right of an elected government to take strategic decisions about the infrastructure of the country.

This decision has been taken by a government that, rarely for the UK, represents a very large majority of those who voted in the last general election. Furthermore, Labour is broadly supportive of HS2, having initiated the thing in the first place. They really should now be allowed to get on and build it.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

If there was a high speed line to Glasgow then you would save far more than 20mins. Manchester would be 1 hour quicker in 2032. Anyway London to Birmingham is 39 minutes quicker, not 20.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

What was that lesson?

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

Chrys, you are mathematically challenged in the extreme.

How on earth do you imagine that a 30-minute time saving on the 100-mile journey from Birmingham to London would translate into a 20-minute saving between Glasgow and London?

If the time saving is something like 30 minutes per 100 miles, compared with the best speeds currently offered by Pendolinos operating on the WCML, then from Glasgow to London you would be looking at a time saving of more like two hours - reducing the journey time to under 2.5 hours and frankly, making a rail journey more attractive than flying, given all the faffing about that comes with air travel (time in the air between Glasgow and London is about an hour, but then you have to add security, boarding and a train journey into central London from LHR or LTN).

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

When did it change from 20 minutes to 30 minutes?

Also I wont answer your first question as I am struggling to see why you even asking it.

Most people on the street probably dont care about these time savings, if you asked joe bloggs would he pay X amount extra to get somewhere a bit faster the answer would probably be no. Especially in the northern part of the country where income levels are lower.

Do you forsee trains full of people on this high speed rail link, because I certianly dont.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

One of the greatest problems with our form of government with elections every 4-5 years is short term views. It's good to see for a change something that was conceived by one government, Labour, is being continued by the coalition. If we continue with policies that can only be realised within a government term so many infrastructure projects that will provide benefits for the long term would never happen.

The link to Birmingham only is not enough, but it is the start of a proper network. It does need some proper joined up thinking and it is vital that it can link into the existing line between London and the Channel Tunnel, without requiring a train change. That is where, in my view, the real potential of the service lies which would finally start to offer real alternatives to air travel to Europe. In the short to medium term environmentally the line's contruction may not make sense, but in the longer term I would expect it to see some payback. Ultimately this is not just about time savings, but being able to create a proper modern railway network, rather than something stuck with the heritage of the Victorian era.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I think Labour backs HS2 as well, we should also extend the network to Scotland, along with the North East of England, Wales and the South West of England as Well!

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

What he said.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

OK, I've had a rummage around, and a couple of things need saying. First, as far as I can tell the Fyra, uses the same tracks used for the Thalys which runs from Amsterdam to Paris. To quote 7 Billion for the Fyra seems unfair. Second, from what I can tell, there certainly are problems with Fyra, and these are due to high cost, low frequency (Fyra runs just once an hour). There also is the fact that Amsterdam-Rotterdam isn't that far (normal travelling time 1 hour vs. 40 minutes on a high speed train). The 20 minutes saved does make for a more feasible commute though.

The main thing however (and one would hope this would ultimately happen in the UK), is that it is part of a wider network of high speed trains on the Continent, linking up to Brussels, and Paris, and in the future to London and Germany, and high speed trains make far more sense over longer distances where they can replace air travel.

I'm still surprised by the price tag of 32 Billion for London-Birmingham though. The 7 Billion quoted for the Dutch line (~100 miles, but only partly high speed) is a fraction of the price tag of London-Birmingham, and I'm struggling to see why it should be so much more expensive in the UK.

Oh. One more thing: this is still work in progress, and the current trains can't use the track to its full potential. With new trains, it's expected that the journey time from Amsterdam to Antwerp will be reduced from 2 hours and 6 minutes on standard tracks to 1 hour and 9 minutes, which is quite substantial (but also achieved by having fewer stops).