Catalonia Independence
 

Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins.

The Spanish police have already removed ballot boxes from several polling stations.

I don't expect this to end any time soon.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

somewhere else where the will of the people is ignored how European of them

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I dare say they don't know what they're voting for so if the vote does go the 'wrong' way, no doubt they''ll be given another chance to come up with the right answer...

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

You think that the vote, declared illegal by the country's constitutional court, is the "will of the people"? I am surprised that you take the rule of law as optional ..

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

doubtful the jackboot has been deployed. Spain is running scared over regional independence and the EU's top dictators will be frantically ordering the put down of the will of the people of this region .

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Not as simple as that in theory.

Catalonia has it's own Parliament with a President (currently Carles Puigdemont) appointed by the King (after party or coalition selection).

The Parliament, as ordinary representative of the state in Catalonia, they promulgate laws in the region in name of the king.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

This is, in the short term at least, a no-win situation. Madrid have handled it very badly. They know losing Catalonia would cause extreme pain for their economy and the country as a whole, they have shown extreme recalcitrance in their dealings with it. The whole situation is a mess.

On another note seems for some no opportunity to take a pop at the European Union and other institutions should go untaken. They quite literally cannot support this referendum. They'd be accused of 'meddling' by the Express, two of the top four Google entries, either way.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

No so much of a stand-off anymore.

https://order-order.com/2017/10/01/s...atalan-voters/

I don't think this is going to be forgotten in a very long time.

If the Spanish authorities are so sure it's all illegal and the result will hold no water why don't they just ignore it. Is there really any need to beat people up for voting?

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

this is the EUROPE of tomorrow any trouble send in the jackboot brigade and beat the people into submission .

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I fear it's heading that way I really do. I could totally understand the reaction if these people had stormed a government building or something but it seems a gross overreaction and it'll harden opinion I reckon.

I guess a European army will come in handy if the Eurocrats and their pals decide people are going cold on the prospect of ever more unyielding central control of their lives...

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

They can't ignore it though as the President promised that if the vote was for independence he would would declare it 48 hrs after the result.

Igni is correct, the Spanish Government have handled it very badly.This heavy handedness may be the straw that breaks the camel's back and leads to a unilateral declaration of independence anyway.

I can see more trouble and unrest ahead.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

But if it were deemed illegal it wouldn't matter what the President declared would it. :shrug:

From what I've heard both sides of this have very different views as to legality of the vote and anything which follows from it so it'll be up to higher powers to decide those things I'd have thought, regardless of the outcome.

There's clearly going to be huge resentment as a result of this unwarranted action from Madrid and frankly I can see it escalating quickly if lives are lost.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Frustration at not being able to troll the Brexit thread boiling over in at least one quarter it seems. There are riots and police apparently brutalising people in Spain and it's a precursor to a police state Europe-wide. There will be consequences to this at ECtHR level if it's as it seems, because Spain is probably violating the ECHR.

As of right now though this is nothing to do with Europe or the European Union beyond that Spain is in both. Weird as the concept may seem for those obsessed with that the EUSSR is pervasive and runs everything this is an internal matter within a sovereign member state.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/934527/...-mariano-rajoy

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

if the majority voted for Independence regardless of legality it would stir up a hornets nest , and if they did legally declare independence how would that affect membership of the European union ,would they have to reapply for membership .

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Is there any question that those in the region who're dead set against independence are being intimidated or prevented from taking part in this vote in order to prevent it happening? I haven't seen/heard any evidence of that. Of course they may well decide that voting legitimises something they consider illegitimate and refuse to take part and I'd fully understand that. Whatever calls for violence there have been by officials either side of the debate, it doesn't look much like those being responsible for it are the ones being beaten in the coverage so far but I'm certain it will happen. It'll be interesting to see what happens with whatever results are obtained from this vote. How anyone can have any confidence in the outcome is beyond me. Who's verifying anything? It's worse than Tower Hamlets. There'll be all sports of claims from one side and the other about undue influence, intimidation, etc. It's a complete mess and a very big one that's for sure. The hornet's nest has been stirring for many years and it won't go away any sooner.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

How would we feel if a large city or area decided to call a vote for their independence from the UK?

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

like Scotland did

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Not good but I wouldn't want them beaten up. If it were deemed a legal process then what could we do about that? If it were deemed illegal then the result of any vote would be ignored in any event.

This hasn't happened out of the blue it's been going on for years and clearly whatever grievances there are very deep rooted and haven't been resolved.

If we spool forward and the vote is for independence, who's going to recognise an independent Catalonia I wonder and how would that work out in the real world? The EU clearly won't and will be as obstructive as it can be for obvious reasons so what benefit would there be to the region of separation as opposed to the huge risks/costs? :shrug:

---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

Yes Sturgeon's been very quiet about that lately, I wonder why. :)

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

There are people from International governments (about 30) overseeing the vote.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

... and surely what they'll witness is large amounts of chaos which undermines its validity won't they? Nobody could seriously claim this vote has been conducted properly and fairly in which case the result, whichever way it goes, can't be deemed safe surely. :shrug:

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Your guess is as good as mine.

Meanwhile 337 reportedly injured by the police.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Yup. Let's hope things don't escalate out of control.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

This is worth reading for context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I think it will as it's just been reported by Sky that if whatever votes manage to be counted are for independence the the President will still declare it in 48hrs.

There is definitely more ahead if it turns out to be true.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

It makes you appreciate how the UK, including the nationalists, handled the question of Scottish independence. The SNP sought a legal referendum, the UK have it, and it was largely peaceful.

The Spanish government have badly misjudged this. There will be a lot more sympathy to Catalonia after this. Shocking scenes to have people beaten attempting to vote, even if the vote itself is provocative and unwise.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

450 now reported as being injured in clashes with the police most of which appear to be as the result of police charges against unarmed people according to the Mayor of Barcelona.

https://twitter.com/AdaColau?ref_src...urope-41461032

I'm sure it isn't all one way traffic but haven't seen any evidence of the use of weapons etc. by protestors so far.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032

Video of police beating people with their hands in the air. Nice.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I've seen videos where firemen intervene, stepping between the protestors and the police, so the police beat them too.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Maybe they too were provocatively holding their hands in the air... This sort of thing is madness. Can you imagine the hatred and resentment this is going to unleash out there? I feel it will only harden opinion amongst those who want independence just like it would have done here if British troops had intervened in the Scottish referendum.

What's the EU got to say about all of this violence? I haven't seen anything reported from the likes of Juncker. This is more reminiscent of Putin's Russia than a leading member of the EU.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I am not sure but think the Council may be obliged to look into http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the...article-7.html

However this is really hard to do, due to it requiring a democratic vote. It merits looking into nonetheless. What Madrid are doing here is unacceptable. Not sure what else can be said for right now. This is depressing but not the first time an EU nation has used police to attack innocent protesters and I doubt the last. :(

Just one for those trying to make political capital out of this.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/10/1.jpg

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I genuinely hadn't seen this post when I posted the one above...

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Quite and Article 2 referred to in Article 7 states

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

The legality of the right to have this vote is disputed by both sides so where does that leave things? If the people there decide they want out of Spain and it's legal for them to do that then that's up to them. I couldn't care less just like I don't care what they think about Brexit which plenty of Eurocrats and national PM's/foreign ministers have had their say about despite not interfering in the affairs of a member state. If it's deemed illegal then they clearly don't have that right even though they might desperately want it and keep on trying to challenge or change the law until they get what they want. Beating up these people isn't the way to resolve any of this, IMHO in fact it makes the likelihood of what Madrid fears worse. God only knows what's going to happen when night falls. I can see fatalities, including police, if they don't exercise some restraint. Somebody needs to get on the phone to Madrid and get them to stop this.

Just seen, on Sky News, images of a middle aged guy hit with a baton from behind whilst standing with his hands in the air doing nothing! These people aren't violent thugs, from what I've seen they're not even armed or retaliating. The trouble is there will be those who'll seek reprisals for all of this and they'll probably include some who want to incite trouble for very different reasons.

According to Sky News the Spanish government is now claiming their response is proportional yet none of the reports I've seen have mentioned anything other than the fact those on the streets have been peaceful and unarmed. Apparently the police drafted in have been using rubber bullets which are illegal in Catalonia. Maybe that law doesn't matter either though...

Interesting to hear on Sky that the Labour and Lib-Dem leaders are now demanding the PM and Foreign Secretary to 'intervene' in the affairs of another EU state when it's such bad form to do so apparently. According to John Craig, Cable wants Spain's ambassador called in and told it's completely unacceptable and Corbyn wants May to 'intervene to end the violence and find a political solution'...

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

It matters not what we think of the legality of the Referendum. It matters what the Catalans think of it.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Well if the rest of the world deems the whole thing illegal then who'll recognise an independent Catalonia? The EU won't. Of course the Catalans may not want to accept any 'final' legal opinion if it doesn't go their way and there's nothing anyone can do about that but I don't see how they can just go it alone unless they want to be like North Korea.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Have you forgotten about Rhodesia?

An interesting article on the possible economic impact.

Link

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Not sure what your point is about Rhodesia but I don't think the Catalans would want to go that way. It seems to me that their main aim is to be better off, not a basket case pariah economy cut off from the EU. If the UK supposedly can't survive outside the EU I doubt Catalonia can. If this is more of an emotive issue about their own national identity etc. however then I can see things getting nasty because they won't be thinking rationally.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Spain really have got this horribly wrong. It was easier to just let it unfold and cry about the legal basis. They've instead forcibly attempted to block a vote and started beating up voters, genius.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Over 750 injured now. :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032


What Corbyn, Sturgeon and Cable think about it:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jeremy-corb...olence-1641471

Not worried about 'intervening' in Spain's affairs evidently and if the EU grandees still are they shouldn't be. For once I agree with Corbyn - it is appalling!

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Britain, the Commonwealth and the United Nations all deemed Rhodesia's UDI illegal, and economic sanctions, the first in the UN's history, were imposed on the breakaway colony. Amid near-complete international isolation, Rhodesia continued as an unrecognised state with the assistance of South Africa and Portugal.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Oh I see but look how that turned out for them. Is that what the Catalans want do you think - to be Europe's Zimbabwe? That'd be better than the status quo? Maybe the they'll consider Zimbabwe's plight at some point and decide that going it alone isn't such a good idea after all. Obviously I have no more idea than you about what's going to happen but I'm hoping those in positions of power on both sides are thinking this through because they're unleashing very powerful forces which can't easily be reversed and it could very easily adversely affect all of us within or without the EU.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

No I don't want it to become another Rhodesia but there was a direct correlation
in that both independence declarations were deemed illegal (expect an announcement about Catalonia's).

The difference here is that Rhodesia was a commonwealth country rather than a state in a country and at the time we we still were classed as a world power and had a lot more clout with the UN back then.

Catalonia is playing a very dangerous game here which could potentially end up sparking a civil war in Spain with the possibility of the Basque region siding with Catalonia.

I'm fully expecting independence being declared tomorrow if not then definitely on Tuesday.

Link

Also

This

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Well it looks like things didn't escalate over night which is a very good thing.

@ Pip - I didn't say you wanted Catalonia wanted to be another Zimbabwe, I askedif you thought the Catalans would want it to be . I'm still confused as to their reasoning for all of this given that I still can't see how they can hope to come out of this financially better off than they've gone into it. Of course they may value their independence from Spain more highly than that. IIRC they want to remain part of the EU but I'm sure the Spanish would have something to say about that and I believe they'd have to start the process from scratch so that could take many years. :shrug:

I can't see how their leaders can seriously claim this 'result' is valid given all the uncertainty caused by the police intervention in matters which is no doubt why Madrid chose to do it. I still think they should have just let them get on with it then challenged the legality through whatever courts would ultimately decide and such matters. Both sides seem to be playing a very dangerous game but nobody I've heard thus far seems to be supportive of the way in which Madrid has responded and the Prime Minister's comments that the police acted with 'calm' are frankly laughable unless the Spanish govt. has an entirely different interpretation of the word.

Anyway, if they've acted with this level of aggression to try to prevent the vote God only knows what they'll do if a declaration of independence is made? Will they try to arrest the Catalan leaders? :shrug:

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Hopefully it remains calm for now but I think the Spanish authorities have given the Catalan independence cause a massive boost and that won't go away. They should have ignored the vote which, having been 'illegal', would have been treated by many as a juvenile and divisive PR stunt.

Instead they've given the Catalan cause a massive boost and more public sympathy across Europe and the World. It's unbelievable how they, a modern first world democracy, have acted. They should be ashamed at the images that have been broadcast around the world. The Spanish Prime Minster should have resigned over it.

Can you imagine if we had acted like that against Scotland? It probably wouldn't have happened as the SNP mostly shunned such a stunt and sought a legal democratic vote which Westminister in turn granted but if we had sent riot police to beat people trying to vote then Independence in Scotland would surely be a foregone conclusion and rightly so.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

:tu:

I really can't see why Madrid felt this was an appropriate option but as it is the whole world is now aware of the situation and in terms of PR, the Spanish have done themselves no good at all and the Eurocrats still don't seem to be saying much about anything. I recall Juncker commenting on post Brexit hate crimes against Polish migrants in the UK so why he feels he can't say something about this (presuming he still hasn't) is beyond me.

https://euobserver.com/political/139230

:shrug:

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

That's not an internal UK matter, this is an internal Spanish matter.

It's very difficult. On the one hand the usual suspects complain about EU leaders and institutions 'meddling' in Catalonia:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...European-Union

On the other hand those same usual suspects complain about the EU not getting involved.

https://twitter.com/JuliaHB1/status/914449418446917637

I would mention Dan Hannan's response to her, which was also shredded, but as seems the in-thing for him now he deleted it and Politwoops hasn't caught up yet.

https://www.politwoops.eu/p/unknown/DanielJHannan/

Everyone's favourite Belgian, Guy Verhofstadt, has made some comments.

There must be consequences for Spain regarding this. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone that the European Union is taking its time over formulating a response.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41479048

Was listening to this on the world service earlier and it certainly seems as though the appalling reaction of Madrid towards those who were trying to vote has indeed united many people on both sides of the argument in that region.

The fact that there haven't been angry reprisals says a lot about the people involved and only serves to further highlight the difference between their approach and Madrid's. Let's all hope the violence has ended.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Beware Big Brother is Beating You... As for the limp EU the only comment from them will be to condone any violence.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Latest From Reuters News Agency: Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy, has called on Catalonia President to abandon his plans for Independence to avoid "Greater Evils".

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Still looks like independence will be declared as early as Monday.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I am just wondering what he means by the term, "Greater evils", is this more police brutality via a Spanish government declaring martial law ?

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Civil war?

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

You mean condemn, right?

So as it turns out despite being the superstate EUSSR controlling everything about member states and leaving them zero sovereignty the EU don't actually have any competency in this.

While the Treaty of Lisbon makes references to consequences there doesn't appear to be any legal basis - it's an aspiration only.

Internal Spanish matter to be attended to according to their own sovereign laws and constitution. EU can express dismay and nothing else. As with everything else they're law-bound and there are a bunch of processes to follow.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

That is what I foresee as the biggest risk if they go ahead. Will the Basques ally with them?

---------- Post added at 14:09 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------

e.g. Useless so why have them?

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

The EU IS incompetent :tu: thanks for the heads up

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

This is going to get even more nasty very soon...

More News coming from Reuters: Spanish Constitutional Court has suspended The Catalan Parliament Session, which had been planned for Monday...

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

I have no idea why those provisions are there. Best guess because if they do become EU competencies the provisions are ready to permit taking action.

You'd need to ask whomever drafted those articles what they had in mind. I fully imagine there are a few things in Lisbon that are redundant and no-one found them concerning enough to amend them.

One thing that couldn't be said about the European Union is that they aren't bureaucratic - they are bureaucratic to a fault but it's probably the only way to do what they do. :)

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Having spent years complaining about EU 'meddling in state affairs' Rod Liddle suddenly decides the EU should meddle in state affairs.

Cynical, opportunistic. Rod Liddle is no more credible on the EU than Jean-Claude Juncker and both should be treated with disdain as extremists.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

The US, French, German, and UK Governments haven't condemned the Spanish Police violence either - I look forward to Rod Liddle's opinion piece on them.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Joyous. I'm not sure they actually have much choice but to follow their laws. This is a political, not legal, problem and needs political solutions.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Fascistic tendencies...

German led EU

hmmmmmmm........

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

The decision where independence would be binding with a simple majority, without requiring a minimum turnout can only lead to violence. Imposing such a radical & structural change on *all* of the region's population in such a way is folly of highest order.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

You've a point. Only the UK is allowed to have major constitutional changes decided by referendums explicitly listed as non-binding with no turnout or super-majority requirement.

EDIT: Please excuse my sudden burst of activity. I'm on the conference call from hell at the moment and it's melting what's left of my brain.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I don't think it's as clear cut as you are positing Igni.

There are many that like him (and myself) think that the EU does meddle in state affairs but with what has happened with Catalonia it now appears as "selective" meddling.

Everything that the EU does appears as "Selective" and purely to further it's own aims.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

good article very credible the truth maybe painful but there it is .

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Okay, would you be able to provide some examples where the EU has meddled in state affairs outside of its fields of competence or treaties?

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

To be honest I think everything is outside its field of competence.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

:tu:

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

No one wants to touch it basically. We for example hardly want to 1) boost a secessionist movement and 2) annoy a major EU government right now.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Nah, it can't happen. The EU will sort it all out.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41518575

This could just be the start..

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Indeed. Legally tricky, ignoring the politics, etc.

---------- Post added at 10:41 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

Thanks for posting this by the way. I've had a look at another couple of pieces of his on the EU. It's astounding how authoritatively someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about can write. The predictions he makes haven't aged well.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

i heard on the grapevine that remainers are planning a breakaway state within the UK aptly named Little Lick spittle ;)

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Right next door to Little England then .. :)

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41523250

The only ones to blame for the violence were those who ordered it and meted it out. There was simply no need to beat unarmed, passive people up for trying to vote. The Spanish clearly have all sorts of means by which to 'persuade' the Catalans of the error of their ways without needing to resort to brutality.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Huge rallies in Madrid and Barcelona over Catalonia

Thousands of people are attending rival demonstrations - one in Barcelona and the other in Madrid - amid tensions over Catalonia's independence referendum.

http://news.sky.com/story/huge-ralli...lonia-11070672

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Not sure either side is going to just forget this. Some sort of mutually acceptable deal will have to be done sooner or later.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Far-right Spanish thugs scream ‘sieg heil’ and perform NAZI SALUTES in praise of the police officers who tried to put down Calatonia’s independence

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4uwXKwnRB
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Craig Murray in a blog post said the following:

Sums up the legitimacy of it all.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

I think it may sum up more of what you want to read into it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consti...Court_of_Spain

This seems a better setup than, for example, the US Supreme Court?

You, and a number of others, seem to be missing the elephant in the room here and that it what they are doing is against the law. They may not like the law but that is their reality.

Trying to spin Nazi thugs into the debate is weak but then this is the Daily Mail's forte. Imagine if Wales had held an illegal vote and was about to declare independence, would you and the Daily Mail be all supporting this, I think not ..

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Craig Murray is a crackpot.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Nazi-saluting thugs attack men and women during independence march in Valencia amid fears that the Spanish region will be next to leave if Catalonia announces breakaway tonight



Far right-wing thugs used sticks and batons to assault their victims in Valencia


This is the shocking moment Nazi-saluting thugs attacked campaigners during an independence march in Valencia amid fears the Spanish region will be next to leave if Catalonia announces a breakaway tonight.
Far right-wing extremists used sticks and batons to assault their victims, who included campaigners on a traditional nationalist march to mark the region's national day.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz4v6VXTo2f
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

What is your point here? Just pasting links to inflammatory reports from the right wing press does not add much value to the debate.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

fears that the Spanish region[ Valencia ] will be next to leave if Catalonia announces breakaway tonight

and that there seems to be neo Nazi's popping up everywhere

didn't realise i had to seek your permission to post :(

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

You don't need my permission to post :) Pasting in Daily Mail links with no comment is not really posting though is it?

So you think that Valencia is seriously trying to become independent of Spain or are you just copy & pasting the Daily Mail's muck raking ... Why would Spain’s third largest bank move their legal base to Valencia if it too is likely to be become independent?

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

why get so upset if it's only "muck raking" you do know you don't have to read it if you find it upsetting that Spain is a bit wobbly and not the utopia that it has sold to the world .

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Looks like they’re going to declare themselves independent within the next couple of hours. For all the sympathy they now have and for all the incompetence of Madrid’s response this seems a bad idea although I guess if they believe Spain will never offer them a democratic means forward then it’s understandable.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

one thing is for sure we do live in interesting times

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Nope! He has suspended it to 'continue dialog'. Good for him.

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

that won't bear any fruit

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

They'll call it Catalexit and one side will refuse to negotiate... :D

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

well they haven't up to now can't see that changing

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Sounds familiar doesn't it. Maybe it'll all just go away if they ignore it long enough...

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

or it will fester and anger will grow until it erupts into civil unrest or even war , maybe the president is buying time to get his defenses in place before the inevitable battle with spain .

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Surely not. That sort of thing can't happen in the EU, they won't allow it...

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

is there an EU directive against civil war within it's member states [doubtful ] more likely they will invoke operation blind eye and look the other way until the divorce bill is due .

Re: Catalonia Independence
 

Or maybe that's why they want a European army - to reinforce democracy when it goes the wrong way. :D