Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

The new PM has said that no further benefit cuts beyond those already planned are to be made during the life of the current Parliament.

Just as I was thinking that this is was very small crumb of comfort for those who rely on this support to survive, I am now informed that those who score low points during the DLA to PIP conversion are now losing entitlement to ESA:

Latest PIP worry.

Worryingly it appears from the latest evidence that the DWP are stopping some ESA awards when people fail to get many points when applying or renewing PIP after previously being on higher rate DLA or PIP. As far as we are aware this is a new trend in refusals.

This hadn't happened so far with PIP although it did with the old DLA system a few years ago.

This is mainly because most of the descriptors are different in each benefit, however where the descriptors cross ie mobility and if someone gained an award of ESA on mental health descriptors alone and the PIP assessor has reported that there are no mental health issues noted, then sadly people are finding that ESA is now sometimes being stopped or reassessed.

I've seen 9 clients this month and studied the reasoning behind each one and they all but one have one common denominator, they all failed to get at least 8 points in the mobility descriptors going from higher rate to nothing DLA or PIP within the last 8 weeks.

I have also noted a dozen calls on our adviceline stating the same.

This is very worrying as the Government forge ahead with new plans to streamline the Tribunal system and make it harder to overturn decisions. (65% win on appeal our figure is around 95% when one of 2 lawyers attend.)

It is vitally important therefore that people are ready for renewal or changeover.

People should read as much as they can from groups on the pulse of whats happening and if they can get an organisation to help them fill the PIP form in thoroughly then advise them to do so, as doing it themselves may go against them.

The PIP assessment is just as important as the form and evidence. Know what to expect, how to get there and try and get an advocate or someone to take and help you on the day, particularly if you need one under The Care Act for other things, ie if you are a vulnerable adult.

Losing not just one benefit but two has a devastating knock on effect to other benefits, carers and mobility cars and the Appeal process can take up to 7 months in total, so it's vitally important you get it right first time!

Also, it used to be more Work Capability Assessments that put magazines and flimsy paper cups with their water machines in a bid to watch you whilst you waited, now it appears to be PIP too.

This assessment was at Hillview at Blackburn Royal Hospital:

It's important to note the receptionist sits behind a window in the hall and it's only a small waiting room and we have not seen this kind of comment before in our appeals, however it's very important to note that the assessment starts when people leave the house in many respects, how they get there, where they parked, and now it seems to include what they do in the waiting area.

Remember that PIP descriptors are very tight in some respects and it's what you cant do for the majority of the time that matters. Holding a magazine then claiming you cannot get food into your mouth most times will be seen to be a direct contradiction of this and assumptions will often be made.

PiP is nothing like DLA in many respects and people need to read the rules and what the descriptors mean before filling in the forms.

Michelle Cardno (Llb hons).

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Our son received a letter a few days ago "Your Disability Allowance is ending" in big black letters.

This made him flip... then underneath it says "You must decide if you want to claim Personal Independence Payments".

We have tried many times to call them on the number given with no luck!

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I'm sorry to hear that Taf, these forms are causing problems for disabled people all over the UK.

Do you have any disability or benefit advice centres where you live that would be able to help?

If you live in the North West, I can refer you to an organisation that I help to support :)

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Nothing available here. The one organisation that did help had it's funding ceased due to "austerity".

I've just done the self-assessment on http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/pip/indexxx.php and it would seem he would qualify IF they would allow a couiple of grey areas where his sitaution changes often. But I have a feeling it will be black and white only judging by how the response choices are written.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I may be wrong but my guess is that Taf is from Cardiff. My further guess is that his username is taken from the River Taff which runs through the City. I reckon Taf is Welsh.

I could be wrong :rolleyes:

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Kairdiff-by-the-sea born and bred... and still living here. :)

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Sadly, just as those who need help the most require it, the services to help them are being closed down due to funding cuts.

There are some organisations that can help remotely by either visiting or helping to fill in forms over the phone.

Due to their own funding cuts, they often ask for a donation and/or travel expenses to be paid.

Let me know if this might be something that you're interested in :)

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

You Sir have been awarded The Sherlock Holmes award of the week for your great deducement.;)

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Do I get an associate award for knowing Taff's Surname. :D

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

No we only have one award per week old bean so you will have to have one of these as the booby prize.:beer:

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Such honour you bestow upon the unworthy. I further deduce that you are still alive and smiling Den. :)

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

l will always smile no mater how good or bad things are old boy.:)

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I just noticed the lad's DLA was not paid on 4th October. I called and was told "It has ceased prior to moving to PIP".

"I asked when the first PIP would be paid and was told "We have no idea, it depends on the interview he attends"..

But no interview has been scheduled!!!!!!!!! And he hasn't claimed PIP yet!

And the PIP letter says that DLA will be paid until a decision is made. Maybe they have already made their minds up without even seeing him?

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

l think your best bet Taf is to ask the CAB or something similar for advice on this.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Ring the Customer Services number, whose job is to sort out/escalate this sort of issue.

https://www.gov.uk/disability-benefits-helpline

0345 605 6055

Or

https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...ints-procedure

0345 712 3456

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

That is who I phoned. :(

It was getting to the end of office hours so I'll have another go tomorrow,

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I wouldnt consider it entirely new practice, its possible it was stopped for a while, but I know this is not new because back several years ago when I was claiming IB, I claimed DLA and failed, then within weeks I was called in for an IB assessment as well as been hassled to attend the job centre for a work focused interview. They openly admitted on the phone that the failed DLA claim was the trigger, as soon as I had the new assessment which qualified me for IB again, they backed down on me attending the job centre.

For this reason I have always advised people who are in the support group of ESA to think hard about claiming PIP/DLA, especially PIP due to the stricter criteria, as the risk is large if you get turned down and it affects the ESA award. Generally if they can get by without PIP/DLA then I tell them to not put in a claim regardless of entitlement.

I can provide an insight into why this is happening.

Starting about 2 and half years ago, almost everyone on ESA was been automatically considered still qualifying when they were due for reassessment, because the system was completely overwhelmed they had to suspend reassessments for an indefinite period of time so they could catch up on the backlog of more than half a million pending assessments. As I recall I believe its an automatic 2 year defferal set by the computer come reassessment date. This meant of course people who might e.g. have had a 6 month prognosis suddenly get a 2.5 year period without reassessment. So they probably didnt see it as a major issue as the person would get reassessed anyway in due course. But with what happened, I can understand why this is happening, as if the person was left alone, they could potentially be automatically deferred whilst having been deemed to have no problems on their most recent assessment.

Also its always been the case you assessed whilst in the waiting room etc.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

It took half and hour to get through this morning, then 20 minutes of hanging on as they "checked the claim status".

"Incorrect trigger by the system", so payment of DLA will be made within a few days. "Sorry for the inconvenience".

The computer makes the decisions now it appears, based on "triggers" with no human oversight. "Errors happen from time to time, it's good that you spotted this one before it got any worse".

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Glad you got it resolved.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Yes ditto that. :tu: I know how I'd have felt had Osem Jnr # 2 received that. I'd definitely be taking this up with my MP and passing the word around to charities/support groups etc. that this can happen, the reasons why and it's not necessarily as bad as it might seem. The more people are aware of the possibility, the less likely they are to be knocked for six unnecessarily if similar happens to them.

So highly unfortunate it was, unpleasant it was and stressful it was for you all. But an example of some awful change in policy which signals yet another attack on society's most vulnerable it wasn't and we should all be thankful for that.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I'm so pleased you have got this sorted, although saying that you should not have had to phone in the first place.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I have now been waiting for the DLA to PIP phoneline to put me through. 25 minutes so far. 4th attempt today.

And their message/on hold music is corrupted to heck!

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I'm sure a few people here will be interested to find out how it goes so please let us know Taf and best of luck to you. :tu:

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

As well as this awful policy re-emerging, another part of the problem is computers making decisions and inexperienced/unprofessional staff doing the face to face interviews.

There have been cases of the assessors turning up for work drunk, lying about having carried out assessments face to face when it was over the phone and lying about what took place when interviews did take place.

http://www.thefedonline.org.uk/fed-n...unk-atos-nurse

This is now so bad that many claimants want to record their interviews, but the DWP place strict criteria upon doing this.

The Radio 4 programmes 'In Touch' aimed at the sight impaired community and the 'You & Yours' consumer programme have featured this as the equipment needed that meets DWP criteria is obsolete!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07mvxx0

Homophobia also raises it's ugly head too:

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com...essment-alone/

Don't forget, the Government outsource these assessments to private companies whose main concern is the £300 they get for most assessments.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

26 minutes into the SIXTH attempt to get an answer from them.... I'm sick of the muzak!!!

---------- Post added at 16:53 ---------- Previous post was at 16:48 ----------

32 minutes into the sixth call today and the phone answered! Total time on hold was 195 minutes.

"Due to the high volume of calls we will give you a callback tomorrow"

AAAAAGGHHH!!!!!!!

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I suppose this is one symptom of a de-motivated Civil Service with employees that have not had a pay rise for 4-5 years or so and have had their conditions of service progressively and unfavourably re-written. Working hard to maintain standards that the public expect is difficult in the face of diminishing returns and staffing levels.

Please remember when you get through Taf, that these people are under as much duress as the recipients of inappropriate forms.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

:banghead:

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

[QUOTE=Kursk;35863031Please remember when you get through Taf, that these people are under as much duress as the recipients of inappropriate forms.[/QUOTE]

I am always calm and courteous. It gets better results.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Yep, they have cut the numbers of civil servants employed, so there are less people to do the tasks asked of them.

Making major changes to the system, then expecting more productivity from fewer people inevitively leads to the sort of service that Taf is experiencing.

Also, more and more errors are being made as older experienced members of staff leave*(along with their many years of experience) and are replaced by cheaper young people.

On paper, this can be claimed to be cheaper and more efficient, but in reality this leads to the incorrect advice and waiting times that Taf and many others are experiencing.

*This is especialy relevant with regards to Housing Benefit. As it is intended to eventually abolish this, staff have been looking for other jobs over the past few years as they would not automatically be redeployed or be offered jobs in the civil service.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Erm, Housing Benefit is mainly administered by Local Authorities, not Civil Servants.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Maybe it would be best to put the 'faceless bureaucrats' ie civil servant's back in this role. At least their objective is public service rather than profit. Getting the numbers down is all the Govt. are interested in. Seem to remember them saying PIP wouldn't significantly affect the numbers eligible , codswallop...

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Problems with DWP decision making were identified by the National Audit Office in 2003. That is more than 5 years ago.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

You fix the system and train people then. Surely the objective is to make sure the money is directed to the right people. This won't be the primary objective of a private company.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Private company? The DWP are the ones making the decisions.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

And the assessment reports they base those decisions are done by?

How is a physiotherapist supposed to assess Aspergers syndrome? That's the sort of crazy situation happening

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Nobody, whatever the training is meant to assess conditions. They assess the impact of any conditions.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

That's right, staff have been leaving because they were not promised redeployment either within their local authority or with the DWP as a civil servant.

Benefit assessors make their decisions based upon evidence supplied by ATOS, Capita etc.

All these companies are interested in is profit, they don't care if the rules are bent or the quality of the information is poor and in turn leads to poor decisions being made that affect our most vulnerable in society.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

The DWP should be the ones doing the assessments and the decision making instead of the current inconsistent mess we currently have.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

No imo the NHS should handle medical assessments as they have far more familiarity with the relevant conditions and their effect on a persons day to day life. I cannot understand why we have a health service that all politicians talk up till it comes to benefit medical assessments. As well as saving us upto 3 billion a year it would also cut down the time many doctors have to spend at tribunals testifying on behalf of their patients which is increasing every year.

At a stroke it would remove all controversy on the subject and help the public have more faith in disability benefits, as anyone with a longterm illness is all too aware that consultants don't keep you on their list unless they are personally convinced a problem exists. Only reason i can see for why this isn't how it's done is because NHS doctors are very unlikely to misrepresent their diagnosis to cut the number of claimants something that ATOS did and were even caught admitting on video by both dispatches and panarama.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Did they not use NHS doctors privately before they sourced out the contracts to private companies RK?.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Yes

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

The promised callback did not happen..... :mad:

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

They rarely do in my experience. Best to keep trying and make full use of the times when they're open and closed. I've found trying early or late often gets me through to these helplines quicker. I just wish they'd use a system which tells the caller where you are in the queue because at least that gives you something to go on and is far less frustrating than that bloody music and/or repeated references to using the internet for your queries or whatever grrrr....

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

That statement is a sub-optimal interpretation of actuality - Local Government employees don't redeploy to the Civil Service.

How can someone from one employer doing a certain job be redeployed to another organisation which doesn't do that same job? :confused:

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Thanks Hugh for that confirmation.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Yes they did Den but they were classed as private and didn't have access to the patients full NHS information I'm on about the NHS officially handling it rather then occasional piecemeal private involvement.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

A call came at 1:40 to say that someone would call me at 5pm. It is now 5:08pm.

---------- Post added at 18:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:09 ----------

Finally got the call at 5:40. Now the wait for the huge assessment form... :(

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

It can't be worse than the DLA forms can it? :erm:

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Talks with management and unions were attempted to ensure that Housing Benefit Officers would either be redeployed within their own local authority or transfer to the DWP to process Universal Credit- in particular cases requiring the housing cost element, which makes them more complicated to process.

This was not agreed, so over the past few years Housing Benefit staff have been looking for other jobs to ensure that they don't become unemployed. The net result is that the system is now being run without the experience of former members of staff with years of experience, some going back to the 1970's.

Wasn't the NHS computerised patient records system supposed to allow the DWP to have access to patient records?? Think this has been scrapped though?? There were many people unhappy about civil servants having access to very personal & private information, I remember a campaign urging people who objected to this to refuse consent for their records to be used in this way.

I have been involved in the social policy side of the Social Security system since the 1980's and have never known the system to be in such a mess.

Badly thought out reforms based on political dogma, reductions in staff, apalling IT systems, letting inexperienced staff go, privatising various functions where the only motivator is profit etc have all taken their toll.

Cameron's Government have a lot to answer for.

Did you know that, depending on where they are in the system, a disabled person may be on one of several benefits with different regulations?

Incapacity Benefit & Income Support should have been abolished by now, but some disabled people are still on these benefits, as well as Contribution Based ESA, Income Based ESA, Universal Credit.

We heard of one case where someone is still on Severe Disablement Allowance, some are on DLA, some are on PIP, it's a really confusing farce for everybody concerned.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

From what l hear the answer to that would be yes.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ima...y15_sample.pdf

---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

The PIP form I will shortly have to complete. No wonder I despair some days.. well a lot of days actually....

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...s-you-form.pdf

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Yes the DWP had access to patient information but the private companies that carried out the assessments never officially had access. Atos were an horrendous company but the faults weren't all theirs the DWP deserved far more criticism then it received and should have been bought to task over some of their official policy's that they themselves broke in back room meetings and unofficial demands made on atos.

The very least that should be done is qualified people with at least a passing familiarity of the medical problems the claimant being assessed has should be required and by qualified i mean professionally medical not the 25 hours of training that allowed medical receptionists to become assessor's.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

@ Den - I haven't seen the DLA forms for a while but the PIP one looks very much the same to me at first glance anyway. :shrug:

I'm sure Taf will give us his insight once he's filled it out. I'd certainly be interested to know what he thinks. My impression is that the new system is not so much geared towards physical disabilities and that may suit Taf's situation with his twins very well. Fingers crossed he gets a good result!

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I honestly can't understand why filling out a form with information you have at your fingertips is regarded as so onerous/despairing. How else are the people who distribute money from the puplic purse supposed to do so with propriety?

It can't be more onerous than, say, chatting on internet forums ;).

Fingers crossed for a fair result for all claimants.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Some cases will clearly be simpler than others. However, often you don't have the information at your fingertips - remember you may be being asked about events which happened many years ago relating to a child or other loved one. There's also the very real problem of accepting just how bad things are when you're trying to describe in detail all the ways in which, possibly, a variety of conditions affect your loved one and trying to identify and articulate clearly the many possible ways in which their disability affects their life and indeed your own (if you're still caring for that person, as we have been for over 20 years now). Often it's other people who can better see the extent to which your life has been affected because you gradually adapt your lives to the needs of the person you care for and lose sight of all the things you do on a daily basis to support the person concerned as well as all the things you can't/don't do anymore as a result.

Caring for someone with complex needs long term involves a roller coaster ride of emotions, fears, frustrations, doubts etc. which are really very difficult to confront at times. I know we worry terribly about Osem Jnr # 2's future and who's going to care for him when we can't. There are times when we feel we can't take any more and will have to put him into care and the truth is that, if we give into those feelings, that's where he will end up sooner rather than later at massive cost to the public purse. To an extent you often survive living in denial about the reality of your loved ones prospects and your daily life and I can tell you that filling out forms such as this, which bring into such stark focus the scale of those problems, is far from easy. In fact it's a most depressing and disheartening exercise which calls everything into question and creates a whole lot of additional stress and anxiety amongst all those involved. In our case, due to the extent of his problems, there's also always that terrible doubt and pressure about whether you're doing the best, whether you've explained properly, whether you've said enough, whether you've overlooked something important. Believe me, although it is a necessary process it can be a very onerous one which involves a lot of very difficult soul searching indeed...

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

:tu: Understood. Thank you.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Many departments read claim forms looking for keywords or buzzwords. The new one with PIP was "reliable" and it's variations. They were taken to task for this and so had to provide an exact definition of the word. In the end they just dropped it and it all flipped into jargonese.

"Be verbose in all your responses" I was advised. A long-winded explanation often contains more information that can swing your case. Even our twins' Paeds Consultant knew this (after being called in to give extra evidence in many cases). His input on the claim forms often required extra sheets of paper!

And, whilst you live day-to-day with a disabled person, or you are the disabled person, having to tell them every aspect of the problems really does make you feel down. You start to feel comfortable in your own skin, accepting your lot, and then you have to openly admit that you have problems. Quite depressing.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Your taking the time to explain is appreciated thanks. The people who process the forms probably feel exhausted by the 'rules' too but this is the system. Accountability is probably another buzz word they hear day in day out.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I know someone who was told they had to switch from DLA from which they got I think it was higher care and lower mobility allowance (or however that works) to PIP, where they scored 0 points and got nothing.


So far it has taken them since around February going through the appeals process and they finally get the final face to face appeal at the end of this month.


The DWP or whoever the body is has tried to appeal against this final appeal before it has even happened. They said things like "x recognised her name and stood up when called, therefor her concentration, memory and cognitive abilities are ok". All those things are documented by specialists and universally recognised as being part of her condition but have been ignored for general statements based on irrelevant observations by a general health practitioner, who I assume is a Doctor with no specialist knowledge of most conditions.


I feel for anyone having to go through this system that was simply a cost reduction exercise for the Tory government.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I would advice anyone getting a face to face assessment for PIP to request a copy of their assessment report.
I would also advise them to get help from their local CAB or if they live in Scotland advice from Money Matters.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Excellent advice weenie.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Our CAB just told me to read and redread the booklet that comes with the claim form. Let it all stew in your head for a few days, then make rough notes before going anywhere near the form.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I would phone CAB again and ask if they can help you fill out the form and if they can't can they suggest somewhere who can.
I don't know if this link can help you but here it is http://www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/lo...ce.aspx?id=645
Benefit Advice Shop looks very similar to Money Matters in Scotland.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

This might help members claiming PIP or moving onto PIP

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/be.../fill-in-form/

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Yes thats a very useful link weenie for those needing help on filling in the PIP form.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Cheers for that :tu: I'll no doubt be up for swapping over soon and it terrifies me.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I can barely walk many days and used to have DLA, but even my DLA it required a tribunal to issue an award on both occasions, the second time the chair even wrote a letter to the DWP saying their stubborness was wasting resources as my case was an easy decision. My area has been running PIP for a couple of years and given that PIP has made it significantly harder to claim for mobility I simply didnt bother.

I know its only my opinion but as an example DLA used 50 metres as a guide to decide if someone is virtually unable to walk, this got reduced to 20 metres for PIP and the only sense that makes is for accountants. Can anyone say that someone who can walk 40 metres unhindered is less disabled than someone who can walk 20 metres? both are very tiny distances.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

This is the demon that is black-and-white. No wriggle room, no compassion, no true understanding of the situation. Typical Tory stuff.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Sorry to hear that the DWP put you through this.

Whilst it is believed that this new system is designed to put people off claiming, I would urge you to try for PIP as this is exactly the outcome that Cameron wanted when he introduced it.

Whilst it's true that a lot of claims are turned down and that the DWP rarely change their decision at the Mandatory Consideration stage, when it goes to the tribunal stage the success rate is very good when independent people become involved.

As a result, the scrapping of DLA is not producing the savings expected (people are less likely to get help with mobility, but more likely to receive care).

The Government intend to deal with this sucess rate by changing the system:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...unals-disabled

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

What else can you expect from the subordinate subservient DWP who carry out relentlessly the political dogma of those in power without compassion and humanity words which many in the organisation have never heard of sadly.

Hopefully the new work and pensions minister at the helm will be better then the last one as one can only hope.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

You do realise this sorts of things were going on long before 2010? A National Audit Office report highlighted problems, way back in 2003.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

l did say those in power which includes previous governments as well NK as one cannot just blame the current lot.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

But doesn't that demonstrate that the problem is with the staff?

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

You have to remember the main DWP staff are given orders from the top apparatus of the DWP who themselves generally carry out the policies of those in power and sadly staff lower down are too afraid to question anything as they are likely to lose their jobs if they start questioning the policies of those higher up in the DWP.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Erm, as someone who's wife works in the DWP, can I just remind people that Civil Servants carry out the policies implemented by the elected Government - they can't just decide not to do things or change the rules because someone disagrees with those rules and policies.

Doing so would be a dismissal offence, just like it would be in most jobs (say, for instance, a supermarket check out operator decided not to charge a shopper for a trolley full of food because the customer looked poor).

If you are unhappy with the policies, lobby your MP to get them change, don't blame the poor bloody civil servant carrying out the policies.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

And that is the crux of the problem Hugh as if no one in a organisation or anywhere else questions things if they are not right then how do governments or others learn from their mistakes as they will just keep on repeating the same mistakes of before.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

And what if the employees did it the other way - denied benefits to those who were entitled to them by statute and policy?

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

You do know that there is an official Decision Makers' Guide that they are required to follow? Technically if they repeatedly don't apply those rules they are guilty of the criminal offence of "misconduct in public office".

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Yes l know they have to follow a official Decision Makers' Guide.

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

That is not the point though as the point is do the DWP and others ever learn from their mistakes from before and sadly the answer to that is probably no.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

So how are they getting it wrong by only doing what they are told?

They are also publicly accessible official assessment guides for ESA and PIP. Along with the Upper Tribunal rulings database, you can find out how the rules and the law are meant to be applied.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

l think this tells you how much the DWP are getting it wrong and what is their answer to it and that is to make things even harder by severely tightening the criteria to make it even harder for people to get help with their everyday lives.

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ne...-keep-climbing

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...isabled-people

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

But are they getting it wrong because they are told to, or are people such as those "around here" misquoting the rules helping the perpetuation of the misunderstanding of the rules and the law?

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

The DWP are not stupid as their decision makers are extremely well versed in the rules and the laws but quite clearly unless some people are blind to it there is a obviously a pretty bad problem as how else would so many decisions get overturned on appeal?.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

The DWP decision makers/case managers are being simply being LAZY and passing the buck to somebody else. They simply say to themselves, "oh there's an appeal process, they can be the ones to do the work of looking at the documents instead".

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

What they doing to try and redefine disability for immobile people is disgusting, easy for me to say I guess with me been included, but I can vouch for all the additional living costs that my disability has caused.

However I seriously cannot be bothered with it now, I would be very surprised to be awarded PIP on mobility.

It is not just the distances they changed, but also they now are able to "pretend" people have aids that they dont have and assume those aids can be used e.g. assuming someone can use a wheelchair and as a result disqualify them from claiming.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

True, but in benefits law there is a lot of discretion used eg sanctioning people, expected work related activity etc.

Some individuals have been caught being deliberately harsh or unfair towards claimants.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

But do you really know the way the rules are meant to be applied or are you "listening" to the myths, which are usually at best, an incomplete explanation of the rules. Eg There's a lot more to mobilizing than being able to go a certain distance.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

The real problems began in 2010 with Cameron's new 'Stricter Benefits Regime'.

This is when we started to hear about war veterans starving to death, disabled people being pushed out of their homes by bailiffs in their wheelchairs, a man having a heart attack during a DWP assessment being sanctioned for failing to complete said assessment, a man with cancer being told he has to make a choice between looking for work and receiving benefits to live on OR treatment for his cancer etc. The amount of deaths has shot up (including suicides).

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

The original ESA rules were set up Labour, as well as the later amendments suggested in 2009.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

You are correct, but the rules regarding speed, manner, pain etc are often overlooked by the private companies whose sole aim is to make money out of these assessments.

This is why I think that this function should not be completely outsourced and why so many appeals are successful.

---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

As a former Decision Maker, I can say that you have hit the nail on the head (although staff cuts have played their part too).

This attitude also appears to be being taken by the banks ie just say no and let the Ombudsman decide.

---------- Post added at 18:17 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

ESA is now a totally different animal to the one introduced by Labour.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

How would they make more money from the assessments?

If the problems have existed BEFORE any staff cuts, then staff cuts can't be to blame.

The changes were suggested in 2009, "Work Capability Review, October 2009". Eg Changing from walking to mobilising, therefore including wheelchair use is there.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

They rush through them, enabling them to carry out more assessments in order to get more money.

There have been cases where assessments have inappropriately been done over the phone or not at all and been claimed for as face to face assessments.

One nurse was even drunk at work and another thought it appropriate to start slagging off claimants by saying they were lazy and taking their disabilities. After complaints and pressure, both were dismissed.

There are certainly staff problems and there has been ever since the days of Supplementary Benefit in the sixties.

There's an excellent book about this called 'DHSS In Crisis".

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Ever heard of the expression, "One swallow does not a summer make"?

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

These are not isolated cases.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

In January this year, there were 2,485,000 ESA/Disabilty Benefits claimants.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...y-mar-2016.pdf

Even if there were 1,000 of these cases (and no one has provided any evidence to support a figure that high), that would be 1 in nearly 2,500 claimants, so statistically, they are isolated cases...

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

You gave examples of the alleged behaviour of individuals. Whatever the behaviour of an individual, ultimately others are involved at one stage or another. You have the assessor, the original decision maker, reconsideration decision maker, and other decision makers involved in the appeal process.

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Some further reading here:

http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com...r-documentary/

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:09 ----------

Last January, The National Audit Office stated that 36% of Capita reports were below standard.

No matter what the figures involved are, this sort of behaviour is completely unacceptable:

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/0...ing-claimants/

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Totally agree that sort of behaviour is unacceptable, but it is not the norm.

And Capita (and others) need to improve the quality of their assessors reports, but one should not conflate that with the first issue.

btw, it was contractual standards, not quality standards - that was around 10% (still too high).

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/up...ssessments.pdf

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

I had a phonecall at 8:40 this morning ref the lad's PIP claim.

Their records showed that we do not live at the same address.

Uh, nope, we have lived together as a family for the past 25 years.

This does not bode well......

Re: Worrying news for ESA claimants converting from DLA to PIP.
 

Possibly some inexperienced member of staff not knowing how to read the screens properly.

A carer is not required to live with the person they care for anyway.

If the system had of held an incorrect address for 25 years, it would have been picked up by one of the computer record data matching excercises.

This is where benefit claims are compared to public and private information to detect and prevent fraud eg if you tell TV licensing that you've moved, but not the DWP, it will be picked up.

If you apply for a loan and say that you live with a partner, yet are claiming benefits as a single person, this will be picked up.

Records are checked with universities to find any benefits claimants who haven't declared this etc etc.