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-   -   Pensions - no wonder there are strikes (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33686121)

Tim Deegan 06-03-2012 22:05
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_love_monkey (Post 35394305)
Personally, I'd quite happily pay an extra 2% if it meant my employer paid 21%..

Incidentally - is your pension payout guaranteed? -i.e. does not fluctuate with the stock exchange?
Nothing is guaranteed. They are changing the way it is calculated, so that you get far less. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

If you had spent 15 years in a career, with relatively low pay for the job, but with the promise that at the end of your career you will get a decent pension. Then I'm sure that you would be slightly miffed.

Remember 14% is a huge chunk to pay from your wages. There are many people considering pulling out of the pension scheme (which was compulsorary when I started). And if only 2% pull out, then it will actually cost the government more.

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35394306)
So my pension fund is lying to me and all the other members re Employers Contributions of 13%?
Like I said, I'm not here to argue. If you want all the figures, then go to the link for the FBU website.

Hugh 06-03-2012 22:18
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
I have just provided figures that disprove your Union's assertion...

Again, the Local Government Pension Scheme has average employer contributions of 13.6% (according to Unite)

And the NHS Pension Fund employers contributions are 14%
http://www.nhsemployers.org/SiteColl..._210709_aw.pdf

Teachers Pension Fund has contributions of 14.1% http://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/em...mployers13.htm

They appear to be lower than 21%.......

Hom3r 06-03-2012 22:21
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
I have a private pension which I set up when I was 18 to enable me to retire at 60.

nomadking 06-03-2012 22:31
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Depends on the scheme. NFPS is for people who stated from April 2006.
Quote:
How many sections are there?
Two. There is the 1992 Firefighters' Pension Scheme (FPS), which has been closed to new entrants since 5 April 2006, and the New Firefighters' Pension scheme (NFPS).
...
What percentage of salary do employees and employers pay?
In the FPS employees pay 11% of salaries and employers pay about 24.4%.

The retirement age has been raised to 60 for new recruits since 2006
In the NFPS employees pay 8.5% of salaries and employers pay about 11.8%.
Quote:
Overview of the offer
Following extended constructive discussions with the firefighter unions, the Department for Communities and Local Government has published a Heads of Agreement on the core parameters for reforms to the firefighters’ pension scheme.
...
The contents of this document relate to the Heads of Agreement that was published on 9 February.
...
flexible retirement from the scheme’s minimum pension age of 55, built around the scheme’s Normal Pension Age of 60
...
the Normal Pension Age will be subject to a regular review, which will consider if the Normal Pension Age of 60 remains relevant and will take full account of the economical, efficient and effective management of the fire service including the challenging occupational demands of operational firefighting and the changing profile of the workforce
...
members who retire later than the scheme’s Normal Pension Age will have their pension enhanced to recognise that the pension is taken later
The retirement age is to be based around 60, but could be from 55(reduced pension).
Quote:
Q7. What is the Normal Pension Age in the 2015 scheme, does this mean I now have to retire at 60?
The Normal Pension Age in the 2015 scheme is age 60, in line with the current Normal Pension Age in the New Firefighters’ Pension Scheme 2006. However, firefighters will be able to start to draw their pension upon retirement after reaching minimum pension age (55) with a reduction.
So the retirement age of 60 was set in 2006. Who was in government then?

Tim Deegan 07-03-2012 00:12
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35394330)
I have just provided figures that disprove your Union's assertion...

Again, the Local Government Pension Scheme has average employer contributions of 13.6% (according to Unite)

And the NHS Pension Fund employers contributions are 14%
http://www.nhsemployers.org/SiteColl..._210709_aw.pdf

Teachers Pension Fund has contributions of 14.1% http://www.teacherspensions.co.uk/em...mployers13.htm

They appear to be lower than 21%.......
Look Hugh. As I said I'm not going to arue about it. There are people who know far more about it than me or you, who have come up with all the facts and figures on the FBU website. So just have a look on there.

Cobbydaler 07-03-2012 00:17
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35394375)
Look Hugh. As I said I'm not going to arue about it. There are people who know far more about it than me or you, who have come up with all the facts and figures on the FBU website. So just have a look on there.
The FBU are totally impartial, aren't they...

Tim Deegan 07-03-2012 00:20
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35394343)
Depends on the scheme. NFPS is for people who stated from April 2006.
The retirement age is to be based around 60, but could be from 55(reduced pension).
So the retirement age of 60 was set in 2006. Who was in government then?
What does it matter who was in government? They have been talking about this for many years.

The NFPS was never agreed to.

Quote:
Overview of the offer
Following extended constructive discussions with the firefighter unions, the Department for Communities and Local Government has published a Heads of Agreement on the core parameters for reforms to the firefighters’ pension scheme.
This wasn't actually a heads of agreement, because nothing was ever agreed. So even the title was wrong :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 00:20 ---------- Previous post was at 00:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobbydaler (Post 35394378)
The FBU are totally impartial, aren't they...
I didn't say for a second that they are. However they aren't going to come up with information that is simply wrong. They are mounting legal challenges against the government, and they would be laughed out of court if they did.

Unlike propoganda that the government puts out to discredit anyone who is in dispute with them, the FBU don't want to take industrial action, it is a last resort. The web site is there to give members the FACTS.

nomadking 07-03-2012 00:26
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35394379)
This wasn't actually a heads of agreement, because nothing was ever agreed. So even the title was wrong :rolleyes:
Whatever it is, it is still the Government's starting point, so claims of being forced to retire at 68 are bogus. That is unless the FBU are going to be the ones to insist on it being increased to 68.:rolleyes:

Tim Deegan 07-03-2012 00:34
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35394382)
Whatever it is, it is still the Government's starting point, so claims of being forced to retire at 68 are bogus. That is unless the FBU are going to be the ones to insist on it being increased to 68.:rolleyes:
Just read the site, and stop putting words into my mouth.

nomadking 07-03-2012 01:03
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35394387)
Just read the site, and stop putting words into my mouth.
Your claimed 13.3% is for those earning above £120,000 and that is according to the Statutory Instrument(ie the Law). No amendments with regards to age are being made at all, so it remains based around 60. That is for the more generous Final Salary scheme.
Quote:
Up to and including £15,000 11.0%
More than £15,000 and up to and including £21,000 11.6%
More than £21,000 and up to and including £30,000 12.3%
More than £30,000 and up to and including £40,000 12.4%
More than £40,000 and up to and including £50,000 12.6%
More than £50,000 and up to and including £60,000 12.8%
More than £60,000 and up to and including £100,000 13.0%
More than £100,000 and up to and including £120,000 13.1%
More than £120,000 13.3%

Tim Deegan 07-03-2012 02:39
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35394392)
Your claimed 13.3% is for those earning above £120,000 and that is according to the Statutory Instrument(ie the Law). No amendments with regards to age are being made at all, so it remains based around 60. That is for the more generous Final Salary scheme.
Sorry I made a mistake. It is 12.3% in april this year, but is going up to 14% by 2015. But that is on top of a 3 year pay freeze dispite a pay agreement to link firefighter pay to associate technical and professional, only a few years previously. Which means a pay cut in real terms already of 11%.

The 68 year old retirement is in future plans. But as I said, for those who aren't fit enough to be operational until they are 60, they can be sacked, and won't be able to claim their pension until they are 68, because that will be the retirement age by then.

nomadking 07-03-2012 03:17
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Where does it say in any OFFICIAL government plans or proposals that the age is definitely to be raised to 68? All that there seems to be is a plan to look at the age, taking into account things like the nature of the work.
Quote:
the Normal Pension Age will be subject to regular review. These reviews will consider the increasing State Pension Age and any changes to it, alongside evidence from interested parties, including unions and employers. It will consider if the Normal Pension Age of 60 remains relevant, taking account of the economical, efficient and effective management of the fire service, the changing profile of the workforce and the occupational demands of, and fitness standards for, firefighting roles
If you want to keep the final salary scheme, you have to contribute more into it.

Hugh 07-03-2012 07:01
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Deegan (Post 35394375)
Look Hugh. As I said I'm not going to arue about it. There are people who know far more about it than me or you, who have come up with all the facts and figures on the FBU website. So just have a look on there.
Sorry, that doesn't wash.

A) your link lead to a series of links, rather than something that specifically backed up your assertions
B) you appear to take the word of a FBU campaign document rather than a number of Pension Fund websites (as well as a Unite union website) - either the FBU are being misleading, or pension funds for around six million people are; which do you think is more likely?

Alan Fry 07-03-2012 10:07
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Why can't the govenrment make it compulsory for all employeers to offer final-salary pension schemes for current and new employees?

And do give the claim that "they cannot afford it" becuase if they can pay large dividends and wages to excutives then they can afford it

martyh 07-03-2012 10:16
Re: Pensions - no wonder there are strikes
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35394448)
Why can't the govenrment make it compulsory for all employeers to offer final-salary pension schemes for current and new employees?

And do give the claim that "they cannot afford it" becuase if they can pay large dividends and wages to excutives then they can afford it
because not every company pays "large dividends" or large wages to executives .Indeed not every company have executives or even pays dividends .Do you even know why a company issues shares ?and do you know why shareholders get a dividend .....sometimes
You really have to start learning about the subject you choose to waffle about .


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