View Full Version : Anti Spam Petition
We the undersigned oppose ntl's plan to include spam in all outgoing webmail.
ntl's spam plan What is the Activity/Change?
From Thursday 3 July 2003, all customers who send emails from the online Webmail application will have an auto signature appended to their emails. This is in addition to the user-configurable auto-signature already available via Webmail.
Why is it important?
The auto-signature will initially promote our Broadband product to all recipients of emails sent by our customers. Initial text will read:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go Fastâ₠¬Ã‚¦faster!
Find out more about Broadband Internet from the UKâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s No.1 provider
Visit http://www.ntlhome.com or call 0800 183 0123
Each email sent from the Webmail application will effectively become an advertisement for our services.
Who is affected?
Customers sending email from the online Webmail application (note: customers who send emails from a desktop resident application, eg. Outlook Express, are not affected)
You may select either or both options
This petition will be forwarded to ntl
They deleted all our saved emails >90 days old to make room for spam.
Ntl, I occasionally use webmail, which is part of the service I pay you for each month.
I am paying you for this service, and object strongly to your plan to piggy-back adverisements for your services on my private emails.
So perhaps you would like to contact me to let me know how much you plan to pay me for hire of the space at the bottom of my private email messages?
Originally posted by Andre
You took the words right out of my mouth Towny.
Ditto
Sir Entiellot
07-07-2003, 10:42
Lapost.net in France did exactly the same thing, and those two lines guarranteed that lapost.net was in EVERY DNS blacklist that you can think of.
timewarrior2001
07-07-2003, 10:45
I am beginning to wonder if monopolies and mergers should investigate NTL.
In Teesside we have 56K dial up from both BT and NTL or BB only from NTL. I am pretty certain that because of NTL's market hold, that companies such as Telewest etc wont cable up the area and offer a choice.
If I find out NTL are tampering with PRIVATE email, I shall sue them. They have no right to make any amendments to email that is both Private AND Confidential. It simply is invasion of privacy and I think that European laws will soon put a stop to their meddling.
orangebird
07-07-2003, 10:49
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
I am beginning to wonder if monopolies and mergers should investigate NTL.
In Teesside we have 56K dial up from both BT and NTL or BB only from NTL. I am pretty certain that because of NTL's market hold, that companies such as Telewest etc wont cable up the area and offer a choice.
<snip>
What about BT bb? If it's not available, surely ntl can't be held responsible for BT not being arsed to upgrade their exchange?
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
I am beginning to wonder if monopolies and mergers should investigate NTL.
In Teesside we have 56K dial up from both BT and NTL or BB only from NTL. I am pretty certain that because of NTL's market hold, that companies such as Telewest etc wont cable up the area and offer a choice.
If I find out NTL are tampering with PRIVATE email, I shall sue them. They have no right to make any amendments to email that is both Private AND Confidential. It simply is invasion of privacy and I think that European laws will soon put a stop to their meddling.
Telewest and NTL have franchise agreements. Basically they cannot cable up the other's franchise areas. This was done to ensure competition for BT, and to ensure that competition does not rip itself to pieces by competing directly with fellow cable companies.
Regarding BT Broadband, BT do have a policy of only upgrading an exchange once interest reaches a certain "trigger level". Maybe your local exchange hasn't reached that level?
I don't agree with NTL adding to the sig on webmail though, us NTL users have paid to use the email service (well, I don't use it) so therefore NTL should not add advertisements to the mails sent through webmail. It effectively means they are charging us for them to advertise!
Dave Stones
07-07-2003, 12:17
i'm not too bothered to be honest. i hardly ever use my ntl mail, dont think people who i send the mail to will care about a little ad at the bottom. ive used hotmail for years thats had spam appended to it forever, and no one complains about that do they... suppose im not paying to use hotmail though...
Enterian
07-07-2003, 12:48
Its the sort of thing I'd expect from a free email service, only I'm paying for this!
rippedoff
07-07-2003, 12:55
I will NOT send out emails advertising the wonders of ntl broadband WHEN NTL CANNOT GIVE ME BROADBAND!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
To be honest I hardly ever use Ntl Webmail. When I do use webmail I go for Hotmail or Yahoo. But I see everyones point if you pay for something you shouldn't have to carry ads for them.:(
This might be going overboard but..
Human Rights Act (1998), Article 8:
"RIGHT TO RESPECT FOR PRIVATE AND FAMILY LIFE
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
Captain_caveman
07-07-2003, 15:25
It's wrong just plain wrong.
Unless they plan to pay us for the privelage of using our e-mails as advertisments. But I don't see that happening.
philip.j.fry
07-07-2003, 17:57
Dear NTL,
I object to the recent changes in the NTLworld webmail application, this being the introduction of a message appended to the bottom of each outgoing e-mail advertising NTL products.
The e-mail service is part of the (broadband) internet package that I pay you for. With free e-mail service providers some method of recovering the cost is expected, however this does not apply to the NTL e-mail service. To have messages tagged onto the end is an invasion of the privacy of private communication and simply unproffessional.
Webmail is an essential utility for the checking of and sending of e-mail whilst away from an individuals home computer. Therefore, unless the offending content is removed immediately, I will be forced to run a private web-server/smtp server on a machine connected to the internet via my NTL connection.
matty4donna
07-07-2003, 18:17
i dont really oppose it, i cant see the problem with it. Some people need to get a life instead of petitioning againt petite little issues. The real spam problem is the amount of crap that is finding its way through to all our email addy's. :)
Stephen Robb
07-07-2003, 18:19
Well I must admit I haven't seen this! I have several friends on ntl and we email quite a lot to each other but never seen this.
Regarding web mail I was under the impression that you used that to access your email using any computer except your own and they stayed on the sever until you got home to download as normal!
Originally posted by matty4donna
i dont really oppose it, i cant see the problem with it. Some people need to get a life instead of petitioning againt petite little issues. The real spam problem is the amount of crap that is finding its way through to all our email addy's. :)
It's not the spam issue I oppose to. NTL simply do not have any right to interfere with the content of my email.
I think it looks silly and cheap to have such an add on. It is not up to NTL to decide how I should come across to people I send email to.
matty4donna
07-07-2003, 18:25
Originally posted by danielf
It's not the spam issue I oppose to. NTL simply do not have any right to interfere with the content of my email.
I think it looks silly and cheap to have such an add on. It is not up to NTL to decide how I should come across to people I send email to. thats fair enough but its not really going to pose a major problem, its not going to tamper with your reputation, its not like they are putting actual adverts in your email.
I have no problem with it myself as long as the email service keeps working and does not go back to the state it was 3 months ago. :)
Originally posted by matty4donna
thats fair enough but its not really going to pose a major problem, its not going to tamper with your reputation, its not like they are putting actual adverts in your email.
But they are. Well at the bottom. I don't want it. It looks silly...
And I actually use webmail only for my ntl address, so all my ntl emails will be affected...
i can't see what all this fuss is about no way can ntl's advert on e-mail be regarded as spam that's extreme nonsense.
:wavey:
matty4donna
07-07-2003, 18:43
Originally posted by danielf
But they are. Well at the bottom. I don't want it. It looks silly...
And I actually use webmail only for my ntl address, so all my ntl emails will be affected... i know this isnt the full issue, but is it not worth a little bit of "advertisment" of ntl: services in tghe knowledge you will be able to use your email service 24/7 and not like it was 3 months ago. I know that is not why ntl: are doing it but i suppose they are just hoping to gain more customers by doing it. More customers = more investment (more investment in the email service and it would not have all the problems it did have).
matty4donna
07-07-2003, 18:43
Originally posted by Gogogo
i can't see what all this fuss is about no way can ntl's advert on e-mail be regarded as spam that's extreme nonsense.
:wavey: exactly :)
Originally posted by matty4donna
i know this isnt the full issue, but is it not worth a little bit of "advertisment" of ntl: services in tghe knowledge you will be able to use your email service 24/7 and not like it was 3 months ago. I know that is not why ntl: are doing it but i suppose they are just hoping to gain more customers by doing it. More customers = more investment (more investment in the email service and it would not have all the problems it did have).
The two are unrelated, if NTL want more customers, than improve the service/ advertise, but don't force your customers into advertising for them. Your customers might get pi**ed off (like this one), which wouldn't do well for word of mouth advertising.
Sir Entiellot
07-07-2003, 19:01
Originally posted by Gogogo
i can't see what all this fuss is about no way can ntl's advert on e-mail be regarded as spam that's extreme nonsense.
:wavey:
Not quite!
Laposte.net did exactly that, then MAPS blacklisted it... all laposte users suffered after that. If NTL does that, it is very likely that ntlworld.com and its smtp servers will go onto the blacklists and consequently most us will find NTL useless as ISP.
It will be damaging for ALL of us. IT is STUPID and it is real SPAM.
matty4donna
07-07-2003, 19:05
ntlworld.com is blacklisted anyway try it on eBay.
Who care's. Why use NTL e-mail anyway. Anyone that hasn't worked it out yet well their muppets. They couldn't manage a ****up in a brewery,
Look around theirs better around ;)
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2003/07/4.gif (http://mail.lycos.co.uk/)
Sir Entiellot
07-07-2003, 19:21
Matt feed "smtp.ntlword.com" to
http://www.moensted.dk/spam/
NTL's servers are squeaky clean.
Ntl is doing fine regarding spam relaying (amost zero), the problem is NTL's custromers that leave their relays open but you cannot blame NTL for that.
But putting an ad on the web mail will blow all this good reputation away.
And yes NTl has a good reputation for its servers (when they work that is) look at the spamcop report:
62.253.162.40 not listed in bl.spamcop.net.
Rationale: Spam score 0.00: spam report ratio (0.000) falls under threshold (0.020)
62.253.162.40 Qty Most Recent Oldest
Sample traffic: None recorded
Trap recipients: None recorded
Spam reports: None recorded
Relaying reports: None recorded
Relay closed: None recorded
PS. I have no affiliation with NTL.
Originally posted by Gogogo
i can't see what all this fuss is about no way can ntl's advert on e-mail be regarded as spam that's extreme nonsense.
:wavey:
these adverts are
a. Unsolicited
b. Commercial
c. Email
Guess what the definition of SPAM is.
.
.
.
Unsolicited Commercial Email
I'm sure you can work the rest out for yourself. :rolleyes:
EDIT: @Defiant - That's exactly what they want though. They'd like to see everyone get so ****ed off at their crappy email and news services that alternatives are sought leaving ntl happily spending 50p/month on providing the services we're paying millions of pounds for.
Sipowicz
08-07-2003, 01:24
Q. If we, the users, were "using" ntl services without paying for them, would we be in the wrong?
If so, why is it ok for ntl to use our "facilities" free of charge?
I know its not considered by some to be that important, but it is to others and the principle around it, is what is being questioned by them.
If you buy a new car and the dealer charges you for number plates and they have his company name on them, or he places one of his stickers inside the rear screen. You are paying him for the privelidge of advertising his company, on your vehicle.........
rippedoff
08-07-2003, 11:17
Can we get rid of it before sending?
:shrug:
Originally posted by rippedoff
Can we get rid of it before sending?
:shrug:
I don't think we can; it appears to be set up to append the text after you click the send button, in much the same way as they do on hotmail etc.
timewarrior2001
08-07-2003, 11:26
Originally posted by scastle
Telewest and NTL have franchise agreements. Basically they cannot cable up the other's franchise areas. This was done to ensure competition for BT, and to ensure that competition does not rip itself to pieces by competing directly with fellow cable companies.
Exactly why this needs to be investigated, Healthy competition is needed, even between cable companies.
Originally posted by scastle
Regarding BT Broadband, BT do have a policy of only upgrading an exchange once interest reaches a certain "trigger level". Maybe your local exchange hasn't reached that level?
When I enquired about ADSL, I was told that there were no plans to upgrade the Middlesbrough exchange and if and when this was done I lived on the fringe area anyway. So basically I cannot go to BT for BB, I cannot go to Telewest for BB I have to stick with NTL. I always thought things like that were illegal under monopolies and mergers.
timewarrior2001
08-07-2003, 11:29
Originally posted by Gogogo
i can't see what all this fuss is about no way can ntl's advert on e-mail be regarded as spam that's extreme nonsense.
:wavey:
If the advertisement within the email was expressly asked for then it is not spam, If it wasnt asked for it is unsolicited advertisments and is therefor spam. Also soon to be made illegal in the UK, so there is hope.
matty4donna
08-07-2003, 11:55
Me can see ntl: ditching their email service soon, no matter what they do the customers are just never happy, always looking for something, for absolutely anything, no matter how small or petit to have a moan about some people. If you dont like adverts in your email its quite simple, you have two choices:
1. Use Outlook Express or similar.
2. Find another email service!
Originally posted by matty4donna
Me can see ntl: ditching their email service soon, no matter what they do the customers are just never happy, always looking for aomething, for anything to have a moan about some people. If you dont like adverts in your email its quite simple, you have two choices:
1. Use Outlook Express or similar.
2. Find another email service!
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it: 'If you don't like it, clear off' is not good business practice. Businesses that don't listen to their customers eventually find they don't have any customers left.
And as for 'use outlook' ... great, next time I'm reading/sending mail in an internet caff 500 miles from my computer, I'll remember that advice, very useful. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by matty4donna
i know this isnt the full issue, but is it not worth a little bit of "advertisment" of ntl: services in tghe knowledge you will be able to use your email service 24/7 and not like it was 3 months ago. I know that is not why ntl: are doing it but i suppose they are just hoping to gain more customers by doing it. More customers = more investment (more investment in the email service and it would not have all the problems it did have).
Fine. If ntl: want to use my email to advertise for new customers they can pay me for doing so. If I wanted to advertise on ntl's website I'm sure they'd expect some sort of remuneration from me, wouldn't they?
Originally posted by matty4donna
Me can see ntl: ditching their email service soon, no matter what they do the customers are just never happy, always looking for something, for absolutely anything, no matter how small or petit to have a moan about some people. If you dont like adverts in your email its quite simple, you have two choices:
1. Use Outlook Express or similar.
2. Find another email service!
:mad:
wtf are you on about. This isn't www.illogicalsuckinguptontlcosimasycophant.com
Name one(1) thing that ntl have done to improve the email service ever.
They are running email for 1.1million people not including tesco and virgin on 7 non redundant mailservers. They delete our saved emails. They add spam to our mail. They dont operate a reliable service. FFS they should take 5p off of everyones subscription for 1 month and upgrade the damn servers. I've got half a terabyte of storage knocking about they can borrow. The cheap *******s.
Dave Stones
08-07-2003, 14:24
when i use outlook i get an AVG signature appended :rolleyes: i wonder just what is at the bottom of my emails when i send them now... and every email i get has a signature/advert on the bottom. i thought they were just a matter-of-fact part of life with email now?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2891845.stm
From October, a European Union directive will make unsolicited e-mails illegal across member states and the UK Government is planning to have its legal framework in place at the same time.
Does anyone have a contact for ntl's legal department? I'm sure they'll be proactive in complying with this directive in good time :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Andre
Hi Obvious
I'm not quite sure (and I'm not disagreeing with you here) that an advert on the bottom of a 'solicited' email (which it would be if you were sending it) can be classed as spam.
Like I said, not disagreeing with you, just making a point. :)
From experience, that will probably be ntl's line.
The advert at the bottom isn't solicited though. Neither the sender or the recipient have any say in its delivery.
duncant403
08-07-2003, 15:52
Originally posted by Dave Stones
when i use outlook i get an AVG signature appended. i thought they were just a matter-of-fact part of life with email now?
You have agreed to have the AVG signature appended as part of your use of the AVG software. If you use Hotmail / Yahoo, then you've agreed to have their advert appended to your email as part of their terms.
Nowhere in NTL's Terms and Conditions or User Policy - when you signed up (although I can't see anything currently either) - it there a clause whereby you agreed to have adverts appended to your personal emails.
Email adverts are not a matter-of-fact part of life. Yes they get appended where you have agreed to it (whether or not you actually read the terms) - but this is not the case with NTL.
Not that it affects me (currently) as I don't use the webmail service. But who's to say that NTL won't decide at some point in the future to append adverts to emails send via the SMTP servers. At which point I shall switch to a different SMTP server (I have an account with an authenticated SMTP server)
The Information Commissioner (http://www.dataprotection.gov.uk/contactus.htm#email) is the person to contact. He should have a view on such matters and is directly responsible for:- In the UK the Commissioner has a range of duties including the promotion of good information handling and the encouragement of codes of practice for data controllers
data@dataprotection.gov.uk
Go on, stick it to ntl, cut and paste some of the arguments from this thread into an email.
----------------
The cap was the last straw. Now I'm out for blood.
matty4donna
08-07-2003, 17:30
Originally posted by obvious
:mad:
wtf are you on about. This isn't www.illogicalsuckinguptontlcosimasycophant.com
Name one(1) thing that ntl have done to improve the email service ever.
They are running email for 1.1million people not including tesco and virgin on 7 non redundant mailservers. They delete our saved emails. They add spam to our mail. They dont operate a reliable service. FFS they should take 5p off of everyones subscription for 1 month and upgrade the damn servers. I've got half a terabyte of storage knocking about they can borrow. The cheap *******s. If its that bad why the hell do you use it? :rolleyes:
Dave Stones
08-07-2003, 17:37
Originally posted by duncant403
You have agreed to have the AVG signature appended as part of your use of the AVG software. If you use Hotmail / Yahoo, then you've agreed to have their advert appended to your email as part of their terms.
Nowhere in NTL's Terms and Conditions or User Policy - when you signed up (although I can't see anything currently either) - it there a clause whereby you agreed to have adverts appended to your personal emails.
Email adverts are not a matter-of-fact part of life. Yes they get appended where you have agreed to it (whether or not you actually read the terms) - but this is not the case with NTL.
Not that it affects me (currently) as I don't use the webmail service. But who's to say that NTL won't decide at some point in the future to append adverts to emails send via the SMTP servers. At which point I shall switch to a different SMTP server (I have an account with an authenticated SMTP server)
ahhhhh i see... too bad im too lazy to read the T&C to check whether this is wrong... il go along with majority vote and tell them to get the signature off my rarely-used mail! :mad:
Stephen Robb
08-07-2003, 19:18
Originally posted by Gogogo
i can't see what all this fuss is about no way can ntl's advert on e-mail be regarded as spam that's extreme nonsense.
:wavey:
I agree! If you are saying that this is all about ntl putting a logo at the bottom of the email, I cannot see the point you lot are trying to make.
For instance, how many time times do you go shopping? Any carrier bag you get from the shop (whether you have paid for it or not) carries the name of the shop and what kind of shop it is.
Do you complain cause that's advertising! How many cars (including the number plates) carry adverts as to where the car was bought. Do you complain? No!
Adverts on the television, cinema. No! What about letters you receive, do you complain back to the company, that amongst the content they are advertising their services. No I don't think so. Even the post office delivery services have advertising even in the franking. Thought so no complaint there either!
Personally, I think you all have blown this totally out of proportion and trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill!!!!
Originally posted by matty4donna
If its that bad why the hell do you use it? :rolleyes:
The simple thing would be to walk away and find another service. That's not on my agenda. It's all about making a stand so that service levels in general do not deteriorate. ntl would love it if people who didnt like their (paid for) mail and news services sought alternatives rather than asking for some value for money.
@Stephen Robb - Mountain out of a mole hill? The government and the EU dont think so. SPAM will be illegal throughout the EU in October :)
matty4donna
08-07-2003, 20:21
Stephen Robb makes a very good point, there is advertising everywhere, yet nobody ever complains about it. Or is this just a "because its ntl:" thing?
carlingman
09-07-2003, 00:33
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
I agree! If you are saying that this is all about ntl putting a logo at the bottom of the email, I cannot see the point you lot are trying to make.
Its about freedom of choice of choosing to have it there or not.
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
For instance, how many time times do you go shopping? Any carrier bag you get from the shop (whether you have paid for it or not) carries the name of the shop and what kind of shop it is.
If you are that bothered about that you turn the carrier bag inside out or failing that you get into your car and throw the bag away or use it for waste bin bag.
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
Do you complain cause that's advertising! How many cars (including the number plates) carry adverts as to where the car was bought. Do you complain? No!
Yes if i feel that strongly i have the option to change the number plate.
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
Adverts on the television, cinema. No! What about letters you receive, do you complain back to the company, that amongst the content they are advertising their services. No I don't think so. Even the post office delivery services have advertising even in the franking. Thought so no complaint there either!
Well again disagree yes i do, if i dont like a TV advert i chose not to watch it ie flip channels etc, if i get mail i dont want i usually cut the paper work into shreds and post it back to them in the prepaid envelope seems to work.
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
Personally, I think you all have blown this totally out of proportion and trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill!!!!
Maybe so thats your opinion and the above replies were mine.
Although i had the option to give my opinion it appears with this tag on the bottom of the email you wont have.
:)
Originally posted by orangebird
What about BT bb? If it's not available, surely ntl can't be held responsible for BT not being arsed to upgrade their exchange?
Or sign up for AOLs cablemodem service :p
Originally posted by obvious
From experience, that will probably be ntl's line.
The advert at the bottom isn't solicited though. Neither the sender or the recipient have any say in its delivery.
You have a choice
use smtp (which is all that was originally offered)and no advert (unless of course you're using one of those shonky 3rd party email apps that sit on top of Outhouse)
use webmail (which is a relatively new thing for ntl) and have an ad inserted
(havent used hotmail/yahoo etc for ages but dont they have advertising added ??)
EDIT: just checked a mail sent from a hotmail account & it has a hotmail advert tagged to it to receive your hotmail on your mobile. And before anyone says hotmail is free , yes the basic webmail service is, bigger mailboxes,pop access etc is a chargeable extra on top of your ISP charges.
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 01:12
Originally posted by obvious
@Stephen Robb - Mountain out of a mole hill? The government and the EU dont think so. SPAM will be illegal throughout the EU in October :)
This Government at the moment couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery and the EU are so busy with their snouts in the trough to notice. So no hope there!
Now what are you calling spam? 10 mailshots a day through your letter box? Yes, that's spam. 30 emails a day (99% of them generated in the USA and sent over here) yes that's spam I quite agree.
I did something on this subject on .com (It's still if you want to go and read it) and to summerise it here, I asked if anyone had seen the program on BBC2 about 4 weeks ago (from now) It was about snail mail spam and email spam. I was more interested the email bit.
There is a bloke who is reputed to be the biggest spam emailer in the world (and making thousands of dollars, thank you very much) reputedley paying hackers to become system managers through Trojan Horses, and downloading millions of email addresses to use for spam email. If you care to take a closer look at these emails they are all American orientated by their content.
They use all the main ISp's; yahoo, aol, msn and countless others.
I've tried my self to block them using IE, MSN and Netscape,but because they use about ten random letters and numbers (think how many combinations you can make of that) in the senders address are changed randomly for every one of the messages sent, so they are unblockable. You have a careful look and you will see what I mean. You get a duplicate email take a careful look at the senders address!
The last comment that the program made was; if email increases at the same rate as it is now, in 2 years the whole email service for the world will collapse and go into a complete meltdown.
One last point, how many things that you have downloaded, bought, played, looked at, AND did not tick the little boxes down amongst the small print that says "tick this box if you don't want to receive emails from other oganisations that may have other interests for you" We have all done it including me!!!
With all seriousness of this going on all around you, and your complaing about a small logo about the size of bigcry probably being somewhere in the title bar!! Ye Gods!!
To matty4donna, thanks for post 51
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
With all seriousness of this going on all around you, and your complaing about a small logo about the size of bigcry probably being somewhere in the title bar!! Ye Gods!!
As a responsible ISP, ntl's T&Cs warn users not to send spam. Now they're hardly setting a good example are they?
I use spamcop to fight spam at it's source wherever I find it. Are you really suggesting that ntl have a special 'get out of jail free' card that means they should be immune to criticism on this issue?
Sending out millions (at a guess) of these unsolicited commercial emails per month doesn't make ntl a small player in the spam game. In any case, at what point does it become wrong? 1,000,000 spams, 1000, 100, 1?
You decide :)
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 09:33
Originally posted by obvious
They deleted all our saved emails >90 days old to make room for spam.
Well you got that wrong for a start!!! When you access your mail and you activate send and receive, all your mail that is on the server is downloaded onto your computer. It doesn't stay on the sever like it does on, for example msn, who delete email over 90 days old! They tell you that when you register.
If you had read the email that was sent to you from ntl: it was explained to you the reason why they were deleting mail after 90 days was because people were NOT accessing their for various (when you register to ntl: for the internet you are set up automatically for an email address on ntl:'s server) reasons.
You say that it is your right to use what email service you want. Yes it is your right, but if you are not taking your emails off of ntl:'s server which is filling up with spam from the USA, the system gets over loaded because you are not taking them off. And you are just one person, so what about if there was 100,000 people doing the same thing? Thought so, I rest my case.
Oh! By the way, I have six email addresses on six servers, and they are checked every day!
MovedGoalPosts
09-07-2003, 09:46
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
Well you got that wrong for a start!!! When you access your mail and you activate send and receive, all your mail that is on the server is downloaded onto your computer. It doesn't stay on the sever like it does on, for example msn, who delete email over 90 days old! They tell you that when you register.
No. You can set Outlook Express and similar programs to leae copies of the email on the server, as well as download them. I do this frequently, so that I can check my email at work using Outlook Express (far friendler than web mail IMO), but also at home, and ensure I have copies of all my mail on my primary home system.
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
Well you got that wrong for a start!!! When you access your mail and you activate send and receive, all your mail that is on the server is downloaded onto your computer. It doesn't stay on the sever like it does on, for example msn, who delete email over 90 days old! They tell you that when you register.
Old ground. Afraid you've got this wrong not me :) "Leave a copy of messages on server" is an option for POP and IMAP mail.
If you had read the email that was sent to you from ntl: it was explained to you the reason why they were deleting mail after 90 days was because people were NOT accessing their for various (when you register to ntl: for the internet you are set up automatically for an email address on ntl:'s server) reasons. My original suggestion was that ntl dont delete specifically saved emails that you've created a folder for and saved explicitly. SPAM would not fall under this category. NTL delete ALL email > 90days old, not just unread email. So bang, there go all my bank statements,invoices,receipts, ebay records etc etc. And it's no use saving a copy in Outlook as the damn thing will synchronise with the server.
You say that it is your right to use what email service you want. Yes it is your right, but if you are not taking your emails off of ntl:'s server which is filling up with spam from the USA, the system gets over loaded because you are not taking them off. And you are just one person, so what about if there was 100,000 people doing the same thing? Thought so, I rest my case.
I never said that :). See points above anyway. I suggest your case has had enough rest and needs a long walk.
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
(when you register to ntl: for the internet you are set up automatically for an email address on ntl:'s server)
While this may be true for a lot of users, It certainly wasn't true in my case. I had to apply to ntlworld before I got and ntl email address. Didn't get automatically registered when I had broadband installed.
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 12:35
Originally posted by obvious
As a responsible ISP, ntl's T&Cs warn users not to send spam. Now they're hardly setting a good example are they?
I use spamcop to fight spam at it's source wherever I find it. Are you really suggesting that ntl have a special 'get out of jail free' card that means they should be immune to criticism on this issue?
Sending out millions (at a guess) of these unsolicited commercial emails per month doesn't make ntl a small player in the spam game. In any case, at what point does it become wrong? 1,000,000 spams, 1000, 100, 1?
You decide :)
You don't get the point! In fact you have answered you own statement! (Sorry can't split this down to one liners. Don't know how!)
1) As a resonsible.......................are they? warn users not to send spam. User's? That's you, isn't it? People who use the Internet.
ntl: supplies the facilities for you to use it. They supply the facilities for you to send and receive email. OK so far?
Is it an offence to intercept, divert or interfere with snail mail? Yes, it is and a very serious one, enough to send you to prison!
The same applies to email if you care to look for it. So in that context, ntl: and other ISP's would be in serious breach of the law if they intercepted, diverted or interfered with your email.
So it's your fellow man who is sending you your spam mail. All the ISP's do, is store it for you so that you can retrieve it. It works exactly like the Post Office, they receive, sort it, and put it in a liitle box for just you. One difference, they deliver, you collect yours.
Oh! By the way there is another easy way you can tell a spam, when it's addressed to you it hits every body with same name.
When we, the Stephen's on @ntlworld.com get one (and it doesn't matter which one) it blankets everybody whose first name is Stephen and in the CC address there is about twenty of us.
But that is nothing to do with ntl: all the addresses are put on at the source data base which sends them. As I said before if ntl: interferes with your mail and it's passage, they would be in serious breach of the law. If you don't believe me, you will find the regulations and law on this site probably under Help.
Another small point, did you read the conditions of acceptence when you applied to ntl: for the internet service? No, I don't think so! I rest my case.
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 12:53
Originally posted by MovedGoalPosts
No. You can set Outlook Express and similar programs to leae copies of the email on the server, as well as download them. I do this frequently, so that I can check my email at work using Outlook Express (far friendler than web mail IMO), but also at home, and ensure I have copies of all my mail on my primary home system.
Oh! I see your one of the people who leaves email on the server. Muiltiply that by 500,000 and you can see the problem ntl: has!
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 13:53
Originally posted by scastle
While this may be true for a lot of users, It certainly wasn't true in my case. I had to apply to ntlworld before I got and ntl email address. Didn't get automatically registered when I had broadband installed.
Yes, but you got the gist.
MovedGoalPosts
09-07-2003, 16:27
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
Oh! I see your one of the people who leaves email on the server. Muiltiply that by 500,000 and you can see the problem ntl: has!
Yep but mine is then set to hold it on the server for only 7 days after the first download, and to delete if I've deleted it from OE - not that unreasonable I think, especially since most of t is SPAM and gets deleted as soon as I see it.
Rojo Habe
09-07-2003, 17:58
Originally posted by obvious
it's no use saving a copy in Outlook as the damn thing will synchronise with the server.
Outlook only synchronises with Microsoft Exchange servers. POP doesn't hve a synchronise option. Emails are downloaded to your inbox and then deleted from the server by default, unless you've told your email client to leave them there.
Anyway, back on topic, I see it as nothing short of an infringement of civil liberties. I stopped using Hotmail when they started this practice, and if I'd not seen this thread I'd have been completely unaware that ntl have started doing it. That would have meant I'd be advertising without even knowing it.
I suggest we set up our own auto-sig on Webmail, something along the lines of:
"Any opinions expressed above are my own; anything that follows this statement is inserted by my ISP, and in no way endorsed by me. Please delete such material if you forward this message."
It's a sad day indeed when we have to start adding disclaimers to our private correspondence.
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 18:32
Originally posted by carlingman
Its about freedom of choice of choosing to have it there or not.
If you are that bothered about that you turn the carrier bag inside out or failing that you get into your car and throw the bag away or use it for waste bin bag.
Yes if i feel that strongly i have the option to change the number plate.
Well again disagree yes i do, if i dont like a TV advert i chose not to watch it ie flip channels etc, if i get mail i dont want i usually cut the paper work into shreds and post it back to them in the prepaid envelope seems to work.
Maybe so thats your opinion and the above replies were mine.
Although i had the option to give my opinion it appears with this tag on the bottom of the email you wont have.
:)
With a responce like that it's obvious you can't see the forest for trees let alone past your nose.
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 19:06
Originally posted by obvious
The Information Commissioner (http://www.dataprotection.gov.uk/contactus.htm#email) is the person to contact. He should have a view on such matters and is directly responsible for:-
data@dataprotection.gov.uk
Go on, stick it to ntl, cut and paste some of the arguments from this thread into an email.
----------------
The cap was the last straw. Now I'm out for blood.
Ah! One of the baying masses. Do all the shouting, have a person load the gun, and another to shoot it! What prevents you from "Stiking it to ntl:" Thought so, profound silence!
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 19:14
Originally posted by MovedGoalPosts
Yep but mine is then set to hold it on the server for only 7 days after the first download, and to delete if I've deleted it from OE - not that unreasonable I think, especially since most of t is SPAM and gets deleted as soon as I see it.
Yes, I quite agree with what you do! But the original aurgument was about all ISP's including ntl: removing and deleting emails that have been sitting on main frames for 90 days. 3 months to collect your mail? And it is the spam from the other side of the pond that is causing the problem in the first place.
BubbleGum
09-07-2003, 19:18
I voted other reason and here it is - ntl are trying to use us for cheap advertising. They say their broadband service is successful and tell us they have over 600,000 people on it, so they aren't making any profit then, and can't afford to pay for proper advertising ?. I may add my own signature to their mail apologising to whoever I email for the advertising and telling them how lame ntl are.
3 posts by Stephen above me - haven't you ever heard of the EDIT BUTTON.
Stephen Robb
09-07-2003, 19:58
Originally posted by obvious
Old ground. Afraid you've got this wrong not me :) "Leave a copy of messages on server" is an option for POP and IMAP mail.
**[Leave a copy on the server is your decision under Outlook's Options, NOT ntl:'s]**
My original suggestion was that ntl dont delete specifically saved emails that you've created a folder for and saved explicitly. SPAM would not fall under this category. NTL delete ALL email > 90days old, not just unread email. So bang, there go all my bank statements,invoices,receipts, ebay records etc etc. And it's no use saving a copy in Outlook as the damn thing will synchronise with the server.
**[With all the hacking that goes on (remember hotmail's problem last year) and you have all that sensitive information sitting on a sever. I don't think so, and your bank details sit on your bank's encrypted main frame not ntl:'s. You only use ntl: to access your bank]**
I never said that :). See points above anyway. I suggest your case has had enough rest and needs a long walk.
**[Maybe so, but that's what you implied]**
philip.j.fry
09-07-2003, 22:21
Originally posted by duncant403
[B]You have agreed to have the AVG signature appended as part of your use of the AVG software.
Hi, I have posted this before but, with AVG free edition the initial setup appends messages to both incoming and outgoing mail certifiying it virus free. In the AVG setup though, you can change the message that is appended or shut it off completely. Try doing so and send yourself mail and you will see that it's now ad free ;)
grum1978
09-07-2003, 22:58
Originally posted by obvious
We the undersigned oppose ntl's plan to include spam in all outgoing webmail.
ntl's spam plan
You may select either or both options
This petition will be forwarded to ntl
:eek:
OMG!!
I think that ntl should of been doing this months ago cheap advertising :D
*waits to be flamed* :rolleyes:
Originally posted by philip.j.fry
Hi, I have posted this before but, with AVG free edition the initial setup appends messages to both incoming and outgoing mail certifiying it virus free. In the AVG setup though, you can change the message that is appended or shut it off completely. Try doing so and send yourself mail and you will see that it's now ad free ;)
That's strange. I have left mine as default, with the incoming & outgoing messages, but they do not appear on the e-mails.
I wonder if AVG e-mail scanner is working properly?
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
...With all seriousness of this going on all around you, and your complaing about a small logo about the size of bigcry probably being somewhere in the title bar!! Ye Gods!!...
What gives you the impression that the advert is going to be a small logo in the title bar?
Didn't you read the 1st post in this thread?
grum1978
09-07-2003, 23:16
Originally posted by XFS03
What gives you the impression that the advert is going to be a small logo in the title bar?
Didn't you read the 1st post in this thread?
i don't think it will be that big but hey i could be wrong and where on the first post does it give you the impression it will be?
Originally posted by grum1978
i don't think it will be that big but hey i could be wrong and where on the first post does it give you the impression it will be?
From the quote in the first post -
The auto-signature will initially promote our Broadband product to all recipients of emails sent by our customers. Initial text will read:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go Fastâ₠¬Ã‚¦faster!
Find out more about Broadband Internet from the UKâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s No.1 provider
Visit http://www.ntlhome.com or call 0800 183 0123
If you can fit that into the size of a smilie you'll need a microscope to read it. :D
grum1978
09-07-2003, 23:26
Originally posted by XFS03
Froim the quote in the first post -
The auto-signature will initially promote our Broadband product to all recipients of emails sent by our customers. Initial text will read:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go Fastâ₠¬Ã‚¦faster!
Find out more about Broadband Internet from the UKâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s No.1 provider
Visit http://www.ntlhome.com or call 0800 183 0123
If you can fit that into the size of a smilie you'll need a microscope to read it. :D
:spin: don't talk technical tome plz....:D
I don't see what all the fuss is abt for 3 lines of writing :shrug:
carlingman
10-07-2003, 00:43
Lets just remind people here,
I answered your post 49 with this
Originally posted by me Its about freedom of choice of choosing to have it there or not.
If you are that bothered about that you turn the carrier bag inside out or failing that you get into your car and throw the bag away or use it for waste bin bag.
Yes if i feel that strongly i have the option to change the number plate.
Well again disagree yes i do, if i dont like a TV advert i chose not to watch it ie flip channels etc, if i get mail i dont want i usually cut the paper work into shreds and post it back to them in the prepaid envelope seems to work.
Maybe so thats your opinion and the above replies were mine.
Although i had the option to give my opinion it appears with this tag on the bottom of the email you wont have.
Then you reply without addressing any of the point with
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
With a responce like that it's obvious you can't see the forest for trees let alone past your nose.
Let me remind you of the Terms and Conditions of this site that you agreed to when you signed up.
Your use of the nthw.com website shall be in accordance with these conditions. This we insist upon.
You agree that you will not :
Post, transmit, upload, email or otherwise make available any content that is illegal, abusive, harassing, defamatory, confidential, harmful, threatening, vulgar, libellous, tortious, invasive of another's privacy, or ethnically, racially or otherwise objectionable.
Found
here (http://www.nthellworld.co.uk/?page=terms)
This is a discussion forum and if you cannot reply to a psoting with a reasonable answer please do no reply with personal insults.
You gave your opinions i answered with mine (hey thats what a discussion forum is about) but instead of answering you resorted to insults in an attempt to make distract from the thread and enforce your point of view.
:(
Originally posted by carlingman
...Your use of the nthw.com website shall be in accordance with these conditions. This we insist upon...
...but we are not on nthw.com :D
Just goes to show that no-one bothers to read the T&C's.
carlingman
10-07-2003, 00:58
Originally posted by XFS03
...but we are not on nthw.com :D
Just goes to show that no-one bothers to read the T&C's.
Ah thats got to be a mishap on this sites part then as what i wrote is copied from this site T&Cs.
carlingman
10-07-2003, 01:00
Originally posted by XFS03
...but we are not on nthw.com :D
Just goes to show that no-one bothers to read the T&C's.
And if you click the link in the above posting sort of proves my point...
:D
Originally posted by carlingman
Ah thats got to be a mishap on this sites part then as what i wrote is copied from this site T&Cs.
That's right.
I'm just having a look at the T&C's now.
It mentions nthw.com at least twice. Oops. :D
carlingman
10-07-2003, 01:03
Hello Mod/Admin typo alert.
You have made a reference to the other site in this sites T&Cs quoting nthw.com at least twice found here (http://www.nthellworld.co.uk/?page=terms)
:D
Originally posted by carlingman
Hello Mod/Admin typo alert.
You have made a reference to the other site in this sites T&Cs quoting nthw.com at least twice found here (http://www.nthellworld.co.uk/?page=terms)
:D
I counted 8 times!
Originally posted by XFS03
I counted 8 times!
Wow, You actually read the T&C ? :eeek: ;) :p
Originally posted by Dr. Plummer
Wow, You actually read the T&C ? :eeek: ;) :p
Actually, I pasted them into Word & did a search. Much quicker than reading them. :D
Originally posted by XFS03
From the quote in the first post -
The auto-signature will initially promote our Broadband product to all recipients of emails sent by our customers. Initial text will read:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go Fastâ₠¬Ã‚¦faster!
Find out more about Broadband Internet from the UKâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s No.1 provider
Visit http://www.ntlhome.com or call 0800 183 0123
If you can fit that into the size of a smilie you'll need a microscope to read it. :D
Thinking about it, my only complaint about the autosig is that it doesn't use the standard signature delimiter of -- which allows email clients to autostrip it from replies to the mail it's in.
Originally posted by fraz
Thinking about it, my only complaint about the autosig is that it doesn't use the standard signature delimiter of -- which allows email clients to autostrip it from replies to the mail it's in.
wonder if that was an accident eh?
Originally posted by obvious
The Information Commissioner is the person to contact. He should have a view on such matters and is directly responsible for:-
data@dataprotection.gov.uk
Go on, stick it to ntl, cut and paste some of the arguments from this thread into an email.
----------------
The cap was the last straw. Now I'm out for blood.
Originally posted by Stephen Robb
Ah! One of the baying masses. Do all the shouting, have a person load the gun, and another to shoot it! What prevents you from "Stiking it to ntl:" Thought so, profound silence!
You really are a :******: aren't you? To use your phrase "Stiking it to ntl:" is something I've already done. The office of the Information Commissioner already have my email.
(Congratulations, you got me to insult you.)
timewarrior2001
10-07-2003, 13:39
As stated before:-
I object because NTL are altering/changing my email.
That is illegal. I do not give NTL my consent to do this and I never will.
It is ILLEGAL, and as far as I am concerned, If I find out NTL have altered ANY of my email I will sue them.
What I do not want is when applying for jobs/sending official email/emailing clients. Is to have a bloody NTL advertisement on my email.
If NTL think they are driving the company in the right direction then they need to fire the entire upper managment. A company with no respect for law cannot be allowed to trade in the UK.
Originally posted by obvious
You really are a :******: aren't you? To use your phrase "Stiking it to ntl:" is something I've already done. The office of the Information Commissioner already have my email.
:rofl: :rofl:
It doesn't matter whether you think it is illegal or not. What matters is whether it is illegal accourding to the law.
The Information Commissioner has better more important things to do their time than to concern themselves in what amounts to a dispute between you and a supplier.
ntl don't read your e-mail so they haven't violated your privacy (well the CSRs might do, but you'll never prove it).
Instead of wasting your energy and the ICs time why not do something more constructive such as writing directly to ntl's MD (someone please post the address) and demand that they cease and desist amending your private correspondence.
Mr Concerned
10-07-2003, 20:53
Originally posted by cjll3
It doesn't matter whether you think it is illegal or not. What matters is whether it is illegal accourding to the law.
The Information Commissioner has better more important things to do their time than to concern themselves in what amounts to a dispute between you and a supplier.
ntl don't read your e-mail so they haven't violated your privacy (well the CSRs might do, but you'll never prove it).
Instead of wasting your energy and the ICs time why not do something more constructive such as writing directly to ntl's MD (someone please post the address) and demand that they cease and desist amending your private correspondence.
The Information Commissioner's Office has an interest in anyone who may be contravening the Data Protection Act. It seems to me that the Information Commissioner may well have an interest here.
What appears to be happening here (apart from the obvious issues of interfering with correspondence that some people object to) is that ntl are making use of personal address lists (which contain third party information), without permission, and then using it to send direct marketing material without the third party's permission, and without giving them the opportunity to opt out.
The fact that they may be accessing and altering private correspondence is, in my mind, enough to start with. It would certainly not be permitted to happen with Royal Mail. I would certainly object if I found that my mail had been opened and slips of advertising put in before they are re-sealed. Unfortunately, emails are being considered more and more to be in the public domain.
There is already enough 'legal' monitoring done by the government of your browsing, email and telephone conversations without other communications companies starting to do similar things.
Originally posted by Mr Concerned
The Information Commissioner's Office has an interest in anyone who may be contravening the Data Protection Act. It seems to me that the Information Commissioner may well have an interest here.
-snip-
The fact that they may be accessing and altering private correspondence is, in my mind, enough to start with.
Anybody who carrys your e-mail message modifies the message whether you like it, know about, object to it.
ntl are not contravening the DPA, the IC will not have any powers to act.
Try complaining to somebody who can such as ntl's look Trading Standards Officer.
Hampshire County Council
Regulatory Services
Monttisfont Court
High Street
Winchester
Hampshire
SO23 8ZE
0845 6030081
rsadvice@hants.gov.uk
Better still complain to ntl, as they are the only people that can change the policy.
Mr Concerned
10-07-2003, 23:38
Originally posted by cjll3
Anybody who carrys your e-mail message modifies the message whether you like it, know about, object to it. I think that you should distinguish between the header which is modified, as is the envelope in the post, and the body which is the message that the email contains.
Originally posted by cjll3
ntl are not contravening the DPA, the IC will not have any powers to act. maybe you have some inside information. The Information Commissioner / Data Protection Act deal with access to data, third party data and direct marketing material (and the stopping of it). If there is a complaint concerning the use / mis-use of these then it is to the Information Commissioner that one should complain.
Originally posted by cjll3
Try complaining to somebody who can such as ntl's look Trading Standards Officer.There is no harm in exploring all avenues.
peterska2
11-07-2003, 00:10
If ntl want to add bits onto the emails then why not.
How much crap gets put on the bottom of the ones sent from inside ntl to outside ntl?
Loads.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
http://www.dpr.gov.uk/notify/4.html
EXEMPTIONS ARE POSSIBLE FOR:
Data controllers who only process personal data for any one or all of the following purposes for their own business.
staff administration
advertising, marketing and public relations
accounts and records
Don't think they are that concerned about marketing do you?
Of cause, the IC will deal with each complaint on it's own merit.
However since ntl are clearly DPA registered, have proper procedures in place regarding access to data there is nothing that falls in the remit of the DPA.
peterska2
11-07-2003, 00:15
placing advertising info on the footers does not contravene the DPA at all
Originally posted by peterska2
placing advertising info on the footers does not contravene the DPA at all
If it did, all of the free webmail services based in England would be prosecuted, as would several companies who all put disclaimers at the bottom of their emails..
Mr Concerned
11-07-2003, 06:41
cjll3,
In your post 97 above you are quoting from the exemptions from notification. This is a completely separate issue from what is being discussed and is dealt under Part 3 of the Act. For instance, if you own a small business and hold information on other (living) people, for example in simple personnel files, you may be excluded from notifying. However you may still be a data controller, and moreover, the data that you hold on would almost certainly still come under the protection of the DPA. See Section 1 (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80029--a.htm#1) of the Act for further clarification.
And, as you rightly say, ntl are anyway included in the register. However, I think that it is a little naive to assume that ntl are fully compliant with the Act simply because they may claim that they have proper procedures in place.
However, the issue in this thread is to do with the obtaining and processing of arguably third party information for direct marketing purposes. This therefore quite clearly would fall under the remit of the Act.
Originally posted by Mr Concerned
However, the issue in this thread is to do with the obtaining and processing of arguably third party information for direct marketing purposes. This therefore quite clearly would fall under the remit of the Act.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Direct marketing does not fall under the scope the of DPA see the exemptions as posted above.
In attaching an avertisement to your e-mail ntl is not collecting information.
There is no Lumber Cartel.
There is no Kennedy conspiracy.
There are no little green men from Mars kept in a special room at Area 51.
Ok, to tackle to problem:-
Complain to ntl saying that they have no right to amend your personal correspondence.
Complain to the Advertising Standards Authority, they regually make rulings against ntl.
Complain to Derek Wyatt MP. http://www.endspam.org.uk Ask him very politely to talk to ntl about changing their policy.
Add a signature to the bottom of the e-mail, saying
Do not buy from ntl, look what they did to my e-mail
Send a blank e-mail to 10 Spamcop users.
a4pacific
11-07-2003, 08:36
I don't understand what the fuss is about, if you do not like the webmail, use Outlook Express !!
Originally posted by a4pacific
I don't understand what the fuss is about, if you do not like the webmail, use Outlook Express !!
Problems
1) ntl's smtp and pop3 servers are shi^h^h^h not very good.
2) this is an abuse of customer's privacy
3) if they are not stopped from doing this then what on earth are they going to do next?
Originally posted by cjll3
Problems
2) this is an abuse of customer's privacy
How is it an invasion of privacy ??
It's no different to the Royal Mail putting an advert on the letters they deliver as part of the franking process.
The content of the mail you are sending has not been edited/altered a short advert is appended to the end of it.No one is physically reading your mail to work out where to append the advert/tailor it , it's an automated process
Originally posted by fraz
It's no different to the Royal Mail putting an advert on the letters they deliver as part of the franking process.
I hate to admit it, 'cos the idea of ntl sticking adverts on my webmail is getting me reeeely annoyed ... but you do have a point.
The question is, whether any of the august institutions other folks have named above would see a block of text added at the bottom of the body of an email as equivalent to two or three words on an envelope.
Originally posted by fraz
How is it an invasion of privacy ??
It's no different to the Royal Mail putting an advert on the letters they deliver as part of the franking process.
The content of the mail you are sending has not been edited/altered a short advert is appended to the end of it.No one is physically reading your mail to work out where to append the advert/tailor it , it's an automated process
If the royal mail opened your letter, placed an advert inside the letter for golds plated vibrators , resealed it and delivered it to your mother. You'd probably be very angry about it.
A frank on the outside of the letter does not indicate that you endorse a product. A leaflet inside the letter does.
Alan Waddington
11-07-2003, 11:53
I don't really want adverts on my emails in case the receipients think I'm endorsing the product.
Also, are NTL limited to advertising their own products, or will they sell space to third parties?
Alan;)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For all you adult entertainment needs visit .....
/EDIT I can't find anything about this in the T&Cs or on the webmail help. Is it real, or is someone having a laugh?
Alan Waddington
11-07-2003, 12:09
Just tried it. It's real - but where was i advised of this?
Test
------------------------------------------------------------------
Go fast...faster!
Find out more about Broadband Internet from the UK's No.1 provider
Visit http://www.ntlhome.com or call 0800 183 0123
Originally posted by Alan Waddington
Just tried it. It's real - but where was i advised of this?
You weren't. Ntl probably thinks you wouldn't understand. The arrogant %&***^*£(" :rolleyes:
Ok, part 1 of the fight.
Right start off with this letter of complaint.
Take it down to the post office and ask for it to go special delivery!
<insert your address here>
11th July 2003
Mr Aizad Hussain
NTL LIMITED
N T L HOUSE
BARTLEY WOOD BUSINESS PARK,
HOOK
HAMPSHIRE
RG27 9UP
Dear Mr Hussain,
Ref: Web Mail
You are ordered to immediately to cease and desist appending advertisements to my private correspondence via your Web Mail.
As the sole copyright holder to my name and likeness you have no rights to use them in promoting your company and products.
Any further violations of my likeness will result in a charge of £ 1 per violation with a collection fee of £ 30.
Yours sincerely,
<insert your name here>
Originally posted by cjll3
If the royal mail opened your letter, placed an advert inside the letter for golds plated vibrators , resealed it and delivered it to your mother. You'd probably be very angry about it.
A frank on the outside of the letter does not indicate that you endorse a product. A leaflet inside the letter does.
They also put the adverts on Postcards where no opening is involved . A small advert placed at the foot of an email is fast becoing the norm for mails sent from web based accounts. WOuld people complain as much if the outgoing mails were virus scanned and an appropriate footer added ?
Originally posted by fraz
They also put the adverts on Postcards where no opening is involved . A small advert placed at the foot of an email is fast becoing the norm for mails sent from web based accounts. WOuld people complain as much if the outgoing mails were virus scanned and an appropriate footer added ?
Come off it Fraz!
Web Mail is part and parcel of the service I am paying for.
If I chose to use something like AVG which does exactly what you've described then I have no objection to it appending my e-mail as I would be trading "advertising" for virus protection.
I have no objection to say hotmail and yahoo appending my e-mail. They are providing me with a service at no cost to myself. Why should I use it without providing something in return?
a4pacific
11-07-2003, 15:13
This is what MSN put on their webmail:
Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today!
http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
I didn't hear any moaning from MSN customers
Originally posted by cjll3
I have no objection to say hotmail and yahoo appending my e-mail. They are providing me with a service at no cost to myself. Why should I use it without providing something in return?
But they charge extra for POP/larger mailboxes and I dont think they do SMTP..... and thats on top of anything you pay your ISP.
You have a choice, use a traditional email client & no discrete advert or use webmail and have a small ad appended.
Originally posted by cjll3
Ok, part 1 of the fight.
Right start off with this letter of complaint.
Take it down to the post office and ask for it to go special delivery!
This is really silly. I can't believe how some of you are reacting to this it seems really childish.
:spin:
Originally posted by fraz
But they charge extra for POP/larger mailboxes and I dont think they do SMTP..... and thats on top of anything you pay your ISP.
You have a choice, use a traditional email client & no discrete advert or use webmail and have a small ad appended.
M$N don't charge me a thing for e-mail. Fact is I only use their e-mail service to keep in contact with 1 person.
I have a third choice, sticking up for my rights not to have ntl dictate to me that my name can be used to endorse their products.
Take a look at the large number of complaints about pop and smtp services, where the solution has been use web mail. Fortunately most of the time I don't need to use ntl's e-mail servers at all, however the majority of users don't have that choice.
This is really silly. I can't believe how some of you are reacting to this it seems really childish.
What's next? AOL style browsers where users are stuck with a choice of windos or nothing?
Originally posted by cjll3
I have a third choice, sticking up for my rights not to have ntl dictate to me that my name can be used to endorse their products.
You're already endorsing their products by having @ntlworld.com after your username (ie you *chose* ntlworld as your ISP) so what difference does a short advert make :rolleyes:
Originally posted by fraz
You're already endorsing their products by having @ntlworld.com after your username (ie you *chose* ntlworld as your ISP) so what difference does a short advert make :rolleyes:
:D
Urm, nope, never used the @ntlworld.com e-mail address. :erm:
Having an e-mail address for ntlworld.com is still not the same as ntl amending my private correspondence. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by cjll3
:D
Urm, nope, never used the @ntlworld.com e-mail address. :erm:
Having an e-mail address for ntlworld.com is still not the same as ntl amending my private correspondence. :rolleyes:
So if you're not using your @ntlworld.com email address then you can't be using the ntlworld webmail service so how are ntl 'amending your private correspondence' :p :p
EDIT: and before you say
"I have friends who mail me from ntlworlds webmail and I object to having an ntl advert added to their mail"
Do you complain as much to yahoo,msn,hotmail (who currently have an advert for BT broadband appended to their mails) etc about the advertising that they attach ??
Originally posted by fraz
So if you're not using your @ntlworld.com email address then you can't be using the ntlworld webmail service so how are ntl 'amending your private correspondence' :p :p
This is far too good an oppotunity to let it past with out making some money from it. ;)
My concern is that they'll next start amending people's correspondence that goes through their mail servers. Very easily done.
The next step after that is to force everyone through their e-mail servers, so you have no choice but to leave.
I don't want to have to do that. A part from the crappy web caches I'm reasonably content with the service.
Do you complain as much to yahoo,msn,hotmail (who currently have an advert for BT broadband appended to their mails) etc about the advertising that they attach ??
Do I allow yahoo and hotmail onto my MTA, no ***king way! :rofl:
Originally posted by cjll3
This is far too good an oppotunity to let it past with out making some money from it. ;)
My concern is that they'll next start amending people's correspondence that goes through their mail servers. Very easily done.
The next step after that is to force everyone through their e-mail servers, so you have no choice but to leave.
I don't want to have to do that. A part from the crappy web caches I'm reasonably content with the service.
Do I allow yahoo and hotmail onto my MTA, no ***king way! :rofl:
Valid observations/points but you haven't answered my questions :rolleyes:
1) How are ntl amending your private mail if you don't use their services ?
2) Do you complain as much to other email providers who attach advertising ?
Originally posted by fraz
Valid observations/points but you haven't answered my questions :rolleyes:
1) How are ntl amending your private mail if you don't use their services ?
2) Do you complain as much to other email providers who attach advertising ?
1) They are not, but if for what ever reason I need to use their web mail service then I expect to be able to use it without it amending my private correspondence.
2) If I was paying for an e-mail service that decided that it should attach adverts to my private correspondence then yes I would.
As for free mail providers such as yahoo and hotmail then they have a right to expect you to help pay for the system.
Miss NTL
13-07-2003, 08:20
We need to check with Spamcop and Spamhaus to find out whether they will blacklist NTL for the ads. And what IP address ranges. I will email Spamcop and Spamhaus, and when I hear from them, I will post the replies.
Originally posted by Miss NTL
We need to check with Spamcop and Spamhaus to find out whether they will blacklist NTL for the ads. And what IP address ranges. I will email Spamcop and Spamhaus, and when I hear from them, I will post the replies.
Spamcop needs I think six different reports before blocklisting. Somebody who wants to cause ntl trouble should certainly have no trouble arranging it.
ntl can appeal against it, and spamcop will ignore any future submissions about it.
Spamhaus, they review the spam samples manually. I doubt if they'll specifically will pick up on something in the sig. Anyway Steve is aware of what a **** hole of a company ntl is.
Originally posted by Miss NTL
We need to check with Spamcop and Spamhaus to find out whether they will blacklist NTL for the ads. And what IP address ranges. I will email Spamcop and Spamhaus, and when I hear from them, I will post the replies.
Very productive suggestion. This site has what 700 or so registered members out of a customer base of 700,000 and of those 700 registered members maybe 70 or so are active.
I would suggest that the vast majority of customers either aren't affected or aren't bothered about a harmless advert and yet you're proposing intentionally to potentially disrupt mail for them :rolleyes:
Miss NTL
13-07-2003, 15:11
Originally posted by fraz
yet you're proposing intentionally to potentially disrupt mail for them :rolleyes:
How did I do that?
I want to know what Julian and Steve think. I am sure they know about this. If they decide to block NTL, I need to have alternative arrangements. It was NOT me that mentioned the method of potentially causing trouble.
BubbleGum
13-07-2003, 15:44
Originally posted by fraz
Very productive suggestion. This site has what 700 or so registered members out of a customer base of 700,000 and of those 700 registered members maybe 70 or so are active.
I would suggest that the vast majority of customers either aren't affected or aren't bothered about a harmless advert and yet you're proposing intentionally to potentially disrupt mail for them :rolleyes:
I email people who use spamcop and I will be very angry if spamcop questions or stops my mail getting through altogether.
This is the stupidest idea I have ever heard :grind:
Originally posted by Bluetack
I email people who use spamcop and I will be very angry if spamcop questions or stops my mail getting through altogether.
This is the stupidest idea I have ever heard :grind:
I wouldn't worry too much about spamcop, you'd have to organise an attack in such a way that similar e-mails get sent to a number of spamcop users who then process it.
Originally posted by Miss NTL
How did I do that?
I want to know what Julian and Steve think. I am sure they know about this. If they decide to block NTL, I need to have alternative arrangements. It was NOT me that mentioned the method of potentially causing trouble.
ummmmm try this :rolleyes:
We need to check with Spamcop and Spamhaus to find out whether they will blacklist NTL for the ads.
operative word being 'blacklist' :p
Miss NTL
13-07-2003, 15:57
I am very concerned that spamcop and spamhaus will blacklist NTL but it was not me that explained the method "how to"--Fraz blamed me unfairly. Steve and Julian know about NTL's plans, it has been reported to the abuse newsgroups. I need to know J's and S's decision.
Miss NTL
13-07-2003, 16:00
Sorrry, Fraz,it has been all over the place, I was not spilling the beans....
Originally posted by Miss NTL
Sorrry, Fraz,it has been all over the place, I was not spilling the beans....
ah so your original wording was unfortunate , instead of
We need to check with Spamcop and Spamhaus to find out whether they will blacklist NTL for the ads.
which make sit sound as though you were asking them to blacklist ntl it should have read
We need to check with Spamcop and Spamhaus to find out whether they intend blacklisting NTL for the ads should they receive complaints.
In which case my apologies :)
Miss NTL
13-07-2003, 16:20
ok fraz,no problemo.
J
x
fraz, you're in the AUP team aren't you? Just wondered if you should declare an interest?
Why would the AUP team be involved in adding adverts to outgoing mail ?? That would be Product Managers/Marketing :)
Stephen Robb
14-07-2003, 00:33
Team Phoenix Message; Carry that on in private and away from the site please.
Originally posted by fraz
Why would the AUP team be involved in adding adverts to outgoing mail ?? That would be Product Managers/Marketing :)
hehe fair enough but dont the AUP team have guidelines on what constitutes spam? Shouldn't you be phoning the Product Managers/Marketing guys for a 'friendly chat'? (Tongue firmly in cheek)
timewarrior2001
14-07-2003, 12:48
I am guessing by now theres been nothing much done about this.
I have been reading through the thread and theres some very very good points on both sides. I have decided that NTl are not doing anything illegal.
To fraz and the others that are linked to NTL.
The argument now, from my point of view, is that what happens if I still dont want NTL to amend a signature on an email that I may send to official sources?
Can I request this signature be removed, or am I forced to advertise NTL say, if I email BT. Funny as it seems, hardly appropriate or professional looking is it?
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
The argument now, from my point of view, is that what happens if I still dont want NTL to amend a signature on an email that I may send to official sources?
Best answer I can give you as a customer is to use Outlook Express with smtp.ntlworld.com set as your outgoing mail sever, the ads are only being attached if you use webmail.ntlworld.com
Originally posted by obvious
hehe fair enough but dont the AUP team have guidelines on what constitutes spam? Shouldn't you be phoning the Product Managers/Marketing guys for a 'friendly chat'? (Tongue firmly in cheek)
I'm sure they do and I'm sure they will but as the mails being sent out aren't unsolicited then I wouldn't class it as spam and it certainly wouldn't appear to be spam as defined by Mail Abuse.org (http://mail-abuse.org/standard.html)
An electronic message is "spam" IF: (1) the recipient's personal identity and context are irrelevant because the message is equally applicable to many other potential recipients; AND (2) the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent; AND (3) the transmission and reception of the message appears to the recipient to give a disproportionate benefit to the sender.
The appending of an advert by the originating mail server does not IMHO fall into either of the 3 categories above.
Wow. I'd say that the definition above fits what ntl are doing exactly. 1, 2 and 3 clearly apply. It's black and white. How can you not see that ? :S
Just got this from Trading StandardsThank you for your recent email regarding the forthcoming implementation of the European Directive on SPAM.
The best person to direct your enquiry to will be Nina Barakzai, Group Compliance Officer, NTL House, Bartley Wood Business Park, Hook, Hampshire RG27 9XA who should be able to tell you what plans NTL have in order to ensure compliance with the above Directive.
grum1978
14-07-2003, 13:42
Originally posted by obvious
Wow. I'd say that the definition above fits what ntl are doing exactly. 1, 2 and 3 clearly apply. It's black and white. How can you not see that ? :S
:rolleyes: hardly!!
Originally posted by obvious
Wow. I'd say that the definition above fits what ntl are doing exactly. 1, 2 and 3 clearly apply. It's black and white. How can you not see that ? :S
/me shakes his head
ntl are not originating transmission of the email, the customer does and if they choose to use webmail instead of smtp/pop a small discrete advert is appended.
ntl are originating email content. This content falls under 1,2 and 3 above because :-
1. (1) the recipient's personal identity and context are irrelevant because the message is equally applicable to many other potential recipients.
AND
2. (2) the recipient has not verifiably granted deliberate, explicit, and still-revocable permission for it to be sent;
AND
3. (3) the transmission and reception of the message appears to the recipient to give a disproportionate benefit to the sender.
Which of these do you not agree with?
timewarrior2001
14-07-2003, 13:50
1 and 2 are reasonably arguable.
3 is out the window, The sender isnt receiving any benefit, NTL is receiving the benefit, so to me the wording makes it NOT spam.
Still its NTL, its their network, their service, looks like they are doing what they want to do.
If there was another cable co to compete with NTL in Teesside I guess NTL teesside would start to suffer.
As it stands I cant even get BB from anyone else.
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
1 and 2 are reasonably arguable.
3 is out the window, The sender isnt receiving any benefit, NTL is receiving the benefit, so to me the wording makes it NOT spam.
Still its NTL, its their network, their service, looks like they are doing what they want to do.
If there was another cable co to compete with NTL in Teesside I guess NTL teesside would start to suffer.
As it stands I cant even get BB from anyone else.
AOL are offering a cablemodem service now :D :rolleyes:
timewarrior2001
14-07-2003, 14:19
Lmao Fraz, yeah but AOL are even worse than NTL, so combine the two and the sh*t is gonna fly. :D
Originally posted by timewarrior2001
1 and 2 are reasonably arguable.
3 is out the window, The sender isnt receiving any benefit, NTL is receiving the benefit, so to me the wording makes it NOT spam.
Still its NTL, its their network, their service, looks like they are doing what they want to do.
If there was another cable co to compete with NTL in Teesside I guess NTL teesside would start to suffer.
As it stands I cant even get BB from anyone else.
3 isnt out of the window as the sender is ntl.
Originally posted by obvious
3 isnt out of the window as the sender is ntl.
The sender is <username>@ntlworld.com *not* ntl (unless of course someone in ntl is writing your emails for you and deciding who to send them to)
I think the discussion is going off on a tangent. I wouldn't want to try to argue the legality of what they are doing - more the morality.
I wouldn't object to adverts piggy-backed on messages I send from a free email service. After all, this is how they pay for the service. I agree to this in the terms and conditions of use.
However I am paying for my Ntl service and I expect it to look and behave like a paid-for service, and to be consistent with the terms and condtions of use that I signed when I entered into a contract with ntl for provision of my service. At no point have I been notified by ntl that a service I am paying for is going to change, or been offered a chance to comment or object. If Hotmail consider advertising to be something I should explicitly agree to, I see no reason for ntl to behave otherwise.
On reflection I don't consider this to be equivalent to an advert on a stamp franking mark. That is a couple of centimetres square, on the envelope and discarded very quickly. Adverts appended to emails I send when I use webmail can *potentially* be forwarded ad infinitum to subsequent recipients.
Can I just point out that the poll is actually heavily biased. There is no "Im happy with having adverts attached option"
In fact this appears to be a common failing with many polls posted on various forums, quite often they appear to be weighted in one particular direction. If anyone is creating a poll can I suggest that they at least put in some sensible alternative options even if those options are not their own personal viewpoibt/opinion.
Originally posted by fraz
In fact this appears to be a common failing with many polls posted on various forums, quite often they appear to be weighted in one particular direction. If anyone is creating a poll can I suggest that they at least put in some sensible alternative options even if those options are not their own personal viewpoibt/opinion.
There is no dening that! However even if the poll was evened up a little, you'd still get a very biased result due to the intended audience of this site.
As for your assumption that most users are happy or don't care ... most users probably don't know about it, most users are probably unhappy about it, most ntl users are used to putting up with **it service from ntl that that don't bother to complain.
People are free to pose opposing views, very much as you have done. However don't hold your breath for a corus of support. :spin:
Originally posted by cjll3
. However don't hold your breath for a corus of support. :spin:
I wont wait for a chorus either :p
:wavey:
(& yes my spillings turrible as will)
Originally posted by fraz
The sender is <username>@ntlworld.com *not* ntl (unless of course someone in ntl is writing your emails for you and deciding who to send them to)
The sender is ntl because someone at ntl is writing my emails for me and then sending them out to whoever I send my emails to without regard to the recipient.
Yes you read it right. ntl are writing my emails to the extent that they are modifying my intended email content and editing in whatewver the hell they want to. They are the originator for the SPAM section.
Novae Sardines
16-07-2003, 17:12
If the emails (with or without a two line ad) are expected or the recipients subscribe to them, then they are not spam.
SpamCop will add those emails to the block lists, if users report the emails as spam.
Some who run black lists add entries after one complaint, usually if they get hits on a spamtrap but most of the time those who manage the lists can tell the difference between legitimate mail and spam. It's impossible to know for certain what will happen to NTL.
Novae Sardines
16-07-2003, 17:21
I forgot to say, that spam filters like Spamassasin, varius Bayesian filters line K9, and mailscanner almost certainly (99%) will class NTL's webmail emails as spam. If you want to make sure that your mail is read by its intended recipient do NOT use NTL's webmail.
Originally posted by fraz
Can I just point out that the poll is actually heavily biased. There is no "Im happy with having adverts attached option"
In fact this appears to be a common failing with many polls posted on various forums, quite often they appear to be weighted in one particular direction. If anyone is creating a poll can I suggest that they at least put in some sensible alternative options even if those options are not their own personal viewpoibt/opinion.
It's a petition you pilchard:p. For people to 'sign' if they disagree with the new advertising policy. If you like the spam so much, go start another petition. I tried to put just one option in the 'poll' as a vote counter but the vB Code wouldn't have it.
Just in case anyone is unclear, this thread is a petition against ntl's policy of spamming millions of email accounts without regard to the recipients wishes, not to mention failing to respect its customer's private correspondence.
Had a reply back this morning from my cease and desist letter.
If you've not sent a copy then you ought to do so now.
Originally posted by obvious
It's a petition you pilchard:p.
And its taken you 157 posts to highlight this fact ?
Whats the matter, run out of good counterpoints :rolleyes:
Originally posted by cjll3
Had a reply back this morning from my cease and desist letter.
So what did it say ??
Originally posted by fraz
And its taken you 157 posts to highlight this fact ?
I thought the fact was highlighted by means of the thread title being 'Anti Spam Petition' ... seemed clear enough to me.
Originally posted by fraz
So what did it say ??
They are looking into it.
Still now I have proof that they've got the cease and desist, I can start mailing away and earning money :D
grum1978
17-07-2003, 12:21
Originally posted by cjll3
They are looking into it.
Still now I have proof that they've got the cease and desist, I can start mailing away and earning money :D
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by cjll3
They are looking into it.
Still now I have proof that they've got the cease and desist, I can start mailing away and earning money :D
Care to post the response here ??
I got this response from Nina.Baraksai@ntl.com In terms of future compliance with the Directive, ntl has already taken advice from the Office of the Information Commissioner in respect of the auto-signature. The advice provided is that the Directive may not necessarily cover a message such as that provided by an auto-signature.
WTF is that all about? Sounds like the Information Commisioner hasn't made his mind up yet. A note to everyone above who said that the Information Commisioner would not be the person to speak to about this - you were wrong :).
So the bottom line seems to be - complain to the Information Commisioner if you dont like the auto-sig and maybe ntl can then stick their spam where the sun dont shine.
http://www.dataprotection.gov.uk/contactus.htm
Contacting us by Email:
General: data@dataprotection.gov.uk. (It may be possible to provide a daytime telephone response to your enquiry. If you would be happy with this please place your telephone number in the 'Subject' box of your e-mail and refer to this in your e-mail to us.)
andygrif
17-07-2003, 14:54
Originally posted by cjll3
[B]
Try complaining to somebody who can such as ntl's look Trading Standards Officer.
Hampshire County Council
Regulatory Services
snip
I think I am right in saying that to complain to trading standards you have to make the complaint to the council that you are under - so for example for me it would be Bedfordshire. They would then take up your complaint with the company and if if necessary the local trading standards where the company is based.
andygrif
17-07-2003, 14:56
Originally posted by Novae Sardines
I forgot to say, that spam filters like Spamassasin, varius Bayesian filters line K9, and mailscanner almost certainly (99%) will class NTL's webmail emails as spam. If you want to make sure that your mail is read by its intended recipient do NOT use NTL's webmail.
Personally I don't agree with ntl: being allowed to advertise their products on my email, that I pay for. However I am happy for them to pay me to carry their adverts!
Just a thought re: the above though, do Spamassasin, Spamcop and the like blacklist all Hotmail and Yahoo emails? Would be interesting to find out.
Also, I thought that it was not individual's email addresses that woud be blocked by these sites, but rather an entire domain name, so if effect ALL people using NTL's email (webmail or SMTP) would be blocked by these services, right?
Originally posted by andygrif
I think I am right in saying that to complain to trading standards you have to make the complaint to the council that you are under - so for example for me it would be Bedfordshire. They would then take up your complaint with the company and if if necessary the local trading standards where the company is based.
It seems to be fine to contact the trading standards office where the company is based. I did and got this reply.Dear Mr Hanlon
Thank you for your recent email regarding the forthcoming implementation of the European Directive on SPAM.
The best person to direct your enquiry to will be Nina Barakzai, Group Compliance Officer, NTL House, Bartley Wood Business Park, Hook, Hampshire RG27 9XA who should be able to tell you what plans NTL have in order to ensure compliance with the above Directive.
NTL do not appear to be breaking the criminal law at this time so Trading Standards have no direct powers to intervene at this time. When the legislation comes into force it will also set out who will enforce it which may or may not be Trading Standards. We are just one of a number of enforcement bodies.
BTW, if ntl were to miraculously start providing reliable email and newsgroups and an uncapped service I'd be happy to advertise for them.
Originally posted by andygrif
I think I am right in saying that to complain to trading standards you have to make the complaint to the council that you are under - so for example for me it would be Bedfordshire. They would then take up your complaint with the company and if if necessary the local trading standards where the company is based.
No, the complaint is passed to the Trading Standards Office nearest the company involved.
Makes it easier to investigate.
Originally posted by obvious
I got this response from Nina.Baraksai@ntl.com
WTF is that all about? Sounds like the Information Commisioner hasn't made his mind up yet. A note to everyone above who said that the Information Commisioner would not be the person to speak to about this - you were wrong :).
I suggest you take English lessons, more like the IC has said it's nothing to do with us.
As I said before. The most effective course of action is to write to ntl and tell them to fcuk off. :)
Originally posted by fraz
Care to post the response here ??
Originally posted by cjll3
I suggest you take English lessons, more like the IC has said it's nothing to do with us.
As I said before. The most effective course of action is to write to ntl and tell them to fcuk off. :)
Hang on a minute, ntl themselves asked the office of the Information Commissioner about this. What makes you think they're not a good place to take concerns to?
The ICs office have already given advice to ntl on the matter about the directive albeit rather poor advice imo. Here it is again the Directive may not necessarily cover a message such as that provided by an auto-signature.
I agree that writing to ntl is also a great idea so I've done that as well and also added David.Novell@ntl.com to my contacts :)
Thanks for the copy of the letter.
Originally posted by obvious
Hang on a minute, ntl themselves asked the office of the Information Commissioner about this. What makes you think they're not a good place to take concerns to?
The may look at issues presented to them, or complaints that are made. However their role is administer the register (and on very rare occasions prosecute offenders, 1 case in 9 years, heavy hitters NOT).
Enforcement of DPA issues is usually up to the data subject not the IC.
You read the disclaimers you'll notice the little bit where the IC says that they don't offer advice.
Originally posted by obvious
The ICs office have already given advice to ntl on the matter about the directive albeit rather poor advice imo.
No it's the correct advice, regardless of whether you like it or not. Automatically adding an advert to an e-mail is not covered by DPA law.
You can tell ntl to stop it with a cease and desist letter like the one I posted.
Originally posted by obvious
I agree that writing to ntl is also a great idea so I've done that as well and also added David.Novell@ntl.com to my contacts :)
Thanks for the copy of the letter.
Finally we agree on something.
The more copies of that letter and make it a letter not e-mail (costs ntl more money to deal with it), the more likely it is they'll back down.
So send it via the web interface to all your ntl using friends and ask them to send a copy too.
:)
ive now added this to my auto sig on outlook..
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go Slower and Slower for a couple of hours until you reach 1gig!
Find out more about NTL's Limited Broadband Internet from the UKâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s No.1 lyars.
Visit http://www.ntlhome.com or call +44 (0)800 183 0123, call us bastar ds, WE LOVE IT SO MUCH, we do all we can to infuriate our customers.
@cjll3
I think we're going to have to agree to differ. I'm not relying on ntl being prosecuted by the IC's office, I'm hoping that the advice they give ntl will change (they clearly have already given advice) as a result of people pointing out to them that these webmail attachments are spam. I'm also hoping that ntl's compliance team will, er comply with any future advice from the IC's office.
Tezcatlipoca
18-07-2003, 01:54
I've just done a test, emailing myself using webmail, & got this added:
Spam sig test.
-----------------------------------------
Email provided by http://www.ntlhome.com/
No advert for NTL broadband, just a small mention of the email provider. They changed their minds about it now?
Just to play devil's advocate for a minute...
*heads over to pinball machine* (lets see how many people get that reference!)
I have an NTL e-mail address for broadband. In fact, I have a couple. But I also have an ntlworld.com e-mail address from an account I had in my University halls of residence a few years ago, completely unconnected with my broadband account.
Now say I was with BT for internet access, and not NTL. I could still use this university account if I wanted to, even though I was paying NTL no money whatsoever. In that respect, I would be using NTL in the same way as people use Hotmail or Yahoo, and so could reasonably expect an ad stuck to the bottom of my e-mails.
Just a thought.
Originally posted by Tristan
Just to play devil's advocate for a minute... <snip>
You had me convinced for about half a second, but then I spotted two fatal flaws...
1. It's a loophole that ntl have themselves created that allows you to keep that old pre-BB email address, not any deliberate attempt on their part to give you a hotmail-style free email address.
I don't know why they arranged things the way they did but when I signed up for BB I got more email addys and more webspace, on top of those I was using previously with dial-up. Neither the missus nor I were wanting to change our addresses so we haven't taken advantage of any of our new entitlement. We still use the dial-up addresses even though we access ntl through BB.
Hence the second flaw:
2. Although the addys we use (and your old one also, presumably) were from the days of free dial-up, that service has since become paid-for. Ntl has chosen to collect your cash for this paid-for service (which comes complete with email addresses included in the advertised price) in one of two ways. Either you pay a one-off monthly fee or you pay per second through your ntl phone bill. Either way, the email address no longer represents a free service. If you are on the 'pay as you go' price plan, as we are, and yet never dial in, you never pay, but that doesn't make it a free service like hotmail. You're just getting in through another ntl-manufactured loophole.
andygrif
18-07-2003, 10:38
Originally posted by cjll3
No, the complaint is passed to the Trading Standards Office nearest the company involved.
Makes it easier to investigate.
I stand corrected:)
andygrif
18-07-2003, 10:44
Originally posted by cjll3
a letter from David Novell
I don't wish to make this personal, and to avoid anything to do with libel, I have to say that this is just my personal opinion...however the person who penned this letter I have had personal dealings with.
In my short conversation, which I terminated, I found him to be a rude and abusive individual, and to quote him directly, said that he was not bothered if I took my business to Sky & BT. So if I received a letter from him, I would personally take anything he said in it with large pinch of salt.
In the interests of balance, I am sure that others will be able to recount sucesses that David Novell has had for them - again this was just my experience.
Originally posted by andygrif
In the interests of balance, I am sure that others will be able to recount sucesses that David Novell has had for them - again this was just my experience.
Don't give a monkies who wrote the reply. I sent notice to the MD of ntl. Now it's time to start collecting some dosh ;)
btrundley
18-07-2003, 16:48
Obviously when you pay for a service that has private mail facility, then your privacy IS the issue. What say we collect NTL'S bosses Email details and send them our spam..Or indded. should we ask for a percentage in aiding there advertising campaign?
andygrif
18-07-2003, 16:56
I do like the idea of each user sending Barclay Knapp a notice saying that for every email sent with a commercial that you did not endorse, there will be a charge to him of...oooh I don't know, say £1
I like the idea even more of actually sending the invoice to him a month later, on an ntl:world Webamil email!
Originally posted by btrundley
Obviously when you pay for a service that has private mail facility, then your privacy IS the issue. What say we collect NTL'S bosses Email details and send them our spam..Or indded. should we ask for a percentage in aiding there advertising campaign?
Hmmm. I don't think the privacy argument carries much weight, provided that NTL are only advertising their own services, and not passing your details on to third parties.
After all, it's not like there is a person at NTL opening your e-mail, reading it, and then attaching the thing at the bottom. NTL are no more and no less able to read your outgoing mail than before they started doing this. All that has happened is that the webmail SMTP server is adding a couple of lines to the bottom of the message body.
Neither, in my opinion, does this constitute spam, which for me would have to be a complete e-mail, that I neither asked for nor wanted. A couple of lines tagged onto the bottom of an e-mail that I do want is not the same thing.
I think the only approach that will be successful in overturning this is that of implied recommendation of NTL's services. Unfortunately, if this were ever to get as far as court (I see one person has already threatened to sue :rolleyes:), NTL could just add a 'automatically added by NTLWorld Webmail' disclaimer to it...
grum1978
25-07-2003, 23:17
Originally posted by obvious
We the undersigned oppose ntl's plan to include spam in all outgoing webmail.
ntl's spam plan
You may select either or both options
This petition will be forwarded to ntl
Obvious:wavey:
Have you fowarded the petition to ntl yet if so any come back on it so far?
If not are you still planning to?
Originally posted by grum1978
Obvious:wavey:
Have you fowarded the petition to ntl yet if so any come back on it so far?
If not are you still planning to?
Hi grum
I guess now's as good a time as any to forward it to them. I'll get on it and report back with any response.
Originally posted by obvious
Hi grum
I guess now's as good a time as any to forward it to them. I'll get on it and report back with any response.
assuming it gets past the corporate spam filters without being tegged as junk :D
grum1978
02-08-2003, 12:57
Originally posted by obvious
Hi grum
I guess now's as good a time as any to forward it to them. I'll get on it and report back with any response.
Have you heard anything from ntl yet with regards to the petition?
Originally posted by grum1978
Have you heard anything from ntl yet with regards to the petition?
Bugger all m8 although I have heard from the ICs office saying they'll look into it and get back to me.
I'll try one more email shot on this petition (Nina Barakzai and Malcolm Padley this time) and if it gets ignored I'll consider snail mail.
timewarrior2001
03-08-2003, 12:04
Originally posted by Tristan
I think the only approach that will be successful in overturning this is that of implied recommendation of NTL's services. Unfortunately, if this were ever to get as far as court (I see one person has already threatened to sue :rolleyes:), NTL could just add a 'automatically added by NTLWorld Webmail' disclaimer to it...
Actually, I think you will find that given a certain outcome I said I would sue.
I do not endorse NTL, I do not want my friends and business colleages thinking that I am recommending NTL, I think its highly unprofessional looking and I do not want it.
Simple really isnt it?
grum1978
26-08-2003, 22:32
Originally posted by obvious
Bugger all m8 although I have heard from the ICs office saying they'll look into it and get back to me.
I'll try one more email shot on this petition (Nina Barakzai and Malcolm Padley this time) and if it gets ignored I'll consider snail mail.
Obvious anything so far?
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