View Full Version : general rant
as the title says.............
i look back and reflect on life, i see people others,not just myself and things disturb me i dont know if this has always been the case (some of the elder generation can enlighten me)but has anyone noticed a downward trend in society as a whole ?
i mean there seems to be a much more violent acceptance these days, in the way people do things im actually pointing out that there seems to be a recklessness these days in the actions of what people do, whether they have an accident or cause it............
bloodshed, violence, rape, guns, knifes, you name it,it happens but things like this seem to becoming more prevalent as time goes by.
you could argue the media influence, is something that draws issues towards us.
but you have to wonder what is causing the downward trend, what influences people to do things like this, is it physcological........
my own perspective on it is that,there can be many influences on your social well being, the way you interact with people your basic demeanor outside, are you likely to turn to a life of crime commit murders because of a social influence ie, your freinds the music you listen to, the tv programmes you watch,your parents ?
It's a combination of general apathy and a persons tendancy to look back and remember the good times for longer than the bad times.
It's a combination of general apathy and a persons tendancy to look back and remember the good times for longer than the bad times.
true,but it was something i was talking about in general,some of the things that happen these days are quite.........well how should i put it evil to say the least, i dont see society as a 'happy clappy' sort of place but it seems to get worse, day by day, im sure of it............
Loss of respect for each other?
Loss of respect for each other?
you could say that, intolerance (i know it was there already) but it seems there is also arrogance, in certain countries, who fail to stablise the more troubled aspects of life.........
you could say that, intolerance (i know it was there already) but it seems there is also arrogance, in certain countries, who fail to stablise the more troubled aspects of life.........
I think it's all down to children not gettig a good clip around the earhole :eek:
I often wonder what makes person A become a robber and troublemaker, and what's different about person B that makes him go out, get a job, buy a house, look after himself and be a nice person.
I dont think social background is always the answer, I think it was more of an issue in the past but education and the ability for even the poor families are much better than they were over 30 years ago.
I think the person is born with those tendencies, but the upbringing can assist in leaning them one way or the other. I admit though that I hate the general "feel sorry for poor Johnny" because he comes from a broken family.
I think people have a choice ie: follow a life of crime or get of their ar*e and get a job. I guess in many cases it appears easier at first not to bother getting a job and turning to a life of crime, when the person finds out they have taken the wrong route it's usually too late.
There is nothing new about your feelings Kronas. I remember reading about this a few years back. Every generation for the last couple of thousand years has expressed the same sentiments......society/world going to pot.......lack of respect for other people.......life getting more dangerous.....increased crime.......end of the world just round the corner. It may be true this time but given the fact that humans have been saying these things for a very long time it's probably just the way we are 'programmed' to see things.
I feel the same way that you do about things btw, but we are probably just being pessimists. :)
ian@huth
10-01-2004, 11:33
I would say that being able to travel freely about has led to an increase in crime and violance. For the first part of last century most people didn'e travel far from home. It is only during the second half of the century that owning a car has been commonplace. When people didn't travel much it was far easier to spot someone that suddenly altered their lifestyle. People tended to know everyone else within their community and knew who to trust and who not to. The local village bobby knew who the villans were and where trouble was likely to break out and acted accordingly. He was also very adept in giving the local kids a clip around the earhole if they stepped out of line and you learnt very quickly what was acceptable behaviour.
timewarrior2001
10-01-2004, 11:34
as the title says.............
i look back and reflect on life, i see people others,not just myself and things disturb me i dont know if this has always been the case (some of the elder generation can enlighten me)but has anyone noticed a downward trend in society as a whole ?
i mean there seems to be a much more violent acceptance these days, in the way people do things im actually pointing out that there seems to be a recklessness these days in the actions of what people do, whether they have an accident or cause it............
bloodshed, violence, rape, guns, knifes, you name it,it happens but things like this seem to becoming more prevalent as time goes by.
you could argue the media influence, is something that draws issues towards us.
but you have to wonder what is causing the downward trend, what influences people to do things like this, is it physcological........
my own perspective on it is that,there can be many influences on your social well being, the way you interact with people your basic demeanor outside, are you likely to turn to a life of crime commit murders because of a social influence ie, your freinds the music you listen to, the tv programmes you watch,your parents ?
I dont think the social situation now is worse than the early 80's. The early 80's was bleak. People complain about crime levels, I am not going to dispute that there is a lot of crime, I just dont think that crime now is any worse than crime say 20 years ago, the difference is that the newspapers report more muggings of elderly people, the TV news now they are not concentrating on the IRA are showing more crime at a local level rather than national.
Peer pressure does induce some crimes, hey now we know the situation, there isnt anywhere near as much gun crime as there used to be, we all heard about that psychopath gunning down 3 officers and killing one recently, That isnt a sign of the times, that could and would have happened 50 or 60 years ago also.
I used to be an avid supporter of the death penalty, but recently I have changed my views somewhat, It would simply not be a deterrent, the situation in the USA proves that. Yes I still think rapists and paedophiles should be castrated but that would also mean any re-offending by them would not be excused as an urge.
I have been the victim of violent crime, as a result I am now going blind in one eye. I was 13 when the incident happened, I received a shattered cheekbone and broken nose. Did not know anything about my eye until much later. I have also been the victim of racial abuse, yet being white the police wouldnt even take a statement from me, I have received death threats from the likes of Combat 18. Yet I am still here, yes there is still a lot of little kappa tracksuit wearing scrotes that need the living hell beaten out of them and forced back into work, I'd gladly do it. That also doesnt make society bad. It isnt all doom and gloom. Kids will be kids, I got into trouble when I was younger, I used to drink on street corners, I knew people that stole cars and motorbikes, I also knew and still know drug dealers. I dont think society is going to the dogs, I think too many people are scaremongering us into beleiving we need tougher laws. Yes thats possibly true, but do they expect our lazy police forces to uphold these laws? the judges that are so out of touch with the real world to act upon these criminals and hand out a proper sentence? to quote a local character teesside tommy......yerjokinarentyer?
My view is that it's all down to political correctness.
Mr Bloke, "That little scrote just nicked my car radio!!"
Social worker, "Yes but you have to accept that he's 'differently-challenged' (complete with the two-fingered 'quotation' action)"
:rolleyes:
I dont think the social situation now is worse than the early 80's. The early 80's was bleak. People complain about crime levels, I am not going to dispute that there is a lot of crime, I just dont think that crime now is any worse than crime say 20 years ago, the difference is that the newspapers report more muggings of elderly people, the TV news now they are not concentrating on the IRA are showing more crime at a local level rather than national.
Peer pressure does induce some crimes, hey now we know the situation, there isnt anywhere near as much gun crime as there used to be, we all heard about that psychopath gunning down 3 officers and killing one recently, That isnt a sign of the times, that could and would have happened 50 or 60 years ago also.
I used to be an avid supporter of the death penalty, but recently I have changed my views somewhat, It would simply not be a deterrent, the situation in the USA proves that. Yes I still think rapists and paedophiles should be castrated but that would also mean any re-offending by them would not be excused as an urge.
I have been the victim of violent crime, as a result I am now going blind in one eye. I was 13 when the incident happened, I received a shattered cheekbone and broken nose. Did not know anything about my eye until much later. I have also been the victim of racial abuse, yet being white the police wouldnt even take a statement from me, I have received death threats from the likes of Combat 18. Yet I am still here, yes there is still a lot of little kappa tracksuit wearing scrotes that need the living hell beaten out of them and forced back into work, I'd gladly do it. That also doesnt make society bad. It isnt all doom and gloom. Kids will be kids, I got into trouble when I was younger, I used to drink on street corners, I knew people that stole cars and motorbikes, I also knew and still know drug dealers. I dont think society is going to the dogs, I think too many people are scaremongering us into beleiving we need tougher laws. Yes thats possibly true, but do they expect our lazy police forces to uphold these laws? the judges that are so out of touch with the real world to act upon these criminals and hand out a proper sentence? to quote a local character teesside tommy......yerjokinarentyer?
I have to agree with much of what you say, I know a couple of small time drug dealers and have associated with villains in the past.
(used to drink alongside some very dubious characters in my younger days)
I can also look back to the 80's, I left school in 1982 and used to know quite a lot of small time villains back then. The one thing I remember about all those young villains though is that they did not go around mugging pensioners or carrying guns, I disagree that crime is not any worse than back in the 80's I think things are much worse in this area anyway.
Back in those days my property and belongings were fairly safe because I knew a lot of the villains of the time, and they knew I was not an easy touch anyway!
These days the drug related crime in this area has gone through the roof, these people only have the next fix on their mind and will do anything to get it. I guess the robbery I remember from back in the 80's was not such a necessity as it is today, back then they would steal and sell so they could have a weekend down the pub and get drunk. These days as I said it's a necessity because they are addicted.
I do not agree with people saying we should help them with their addiction, they had a choice the same as I did. I chose not to take drugs and they chose the other route they were in control of their decisions. :eek:
<snip>(complete with the two-fingered 'quotation' action)"
:rolleyes:
LOL @ that. :D
<snip>I would say that being able to travel freely about has led to an increase in crime and violance I have read that too, I live in a small village where the only trouble we get is caused by people from the City 15 miles away. :(
timewarrior2001
10-01-2004, 11:56
I have to agree with much of what you say, I know a couple of small time drug dealers and have associated with villains in the past.
(used to drink alongside some very dubious characters in my younger days)
I can also look back to the 80's, I left school in 1982 and used to know quite a lot of small time villains back then. The one thing I remember about all those young villains though is that they did not go around mugging pensioners or carrying guns, I disagree that crime is not any worse than back in the 80's I think things are much worse in this area anyway.
Back in those days my property and belongings were fairly safe because I knew a lot of the villains of the time, and they knew I was not an easy touch anyway!
These days the drug related crime in this area has gone through the roof, these people only have the next fix on their mind and will do anything to get it. I guess the robbery I remember from back in the 80's was not such a necessity as it is today, back then they would steal and sell so they could have a weekend down the pub and get drunk. These days as I said it's a necessity because they are addicted.
I accept your comments on the 80's, I was born in 1976 so I wasnt too old at that time, but I do remember my uncles best mate being stabbed to death in the local park because of an argument over a woman in a pub called the Billingham arms. That would been around 1980-1982 so to me being so young then the early 80's seemed a very violent time. My great gran was murdered by her son in 1978, yet another thing for me in a young life that may have made me realise at a young age that life was violent. Drugs although plentifull were more discreet, and remained that way until 1988 ish, with the invention of this acid house thing then they spiralled out of control. I guess you could say the social change for the worse came with the invention of Punk in the mid 70's, all that spitting on people and stuff, seems funny now, I'm into all the modern punk stuff but I dont go around spitting on people lol.
paulyoung666
10-01-2004, 12:02
I accept your comments on the 80's, I was born in 1976 so I wasnt too old at that time, but I do remember my uncles best mate being stabbed to death in the local park because of an argument over a woman in a pub called the Billingham arms. That would been around 1980-1982 so to me being so young then the early 80's seemed a very violent time. My great gran was murdered by her son in 1978, yet another thing for me in a young life that may have made me realise at a young age that life was violent. Drugs although plentifull were more discreet, and remained that way until 1988 ish, with the invention of this acid house thing then they spiralled out of control. I guess you could say the social change for the worse came with the invention of Punk in the mid 70's, all that spitting on people and stuff, seems funny now, I'm into all the modern punk stuff but I dont go around spitting on people lol.
ahhhhhhhhhhhh the billingham arms , especially the festival bar used to be very dodgy , i believe it has been renamed now , proper scary place :(
I wonder if bringing back national service would help?
It would definitely get the kids off the street, and hopefully show them that they can be valued members of society, and give them a trade.
I also don't have a problem with the idea of grammer schools and the 11+
Of course most parents would like their kids to be able to go to university, but you just have to look at the dropout rate to see how many people aren't suited for uni.
Also, why should someone need 3 A's at one uni, but an E at another to get on a course which gives them the same degree?
Does this mean that the degree at the lower uni isn't as good as the other one?
I think it needs a total shake up to inject some realism into the education system.
Make all degrees of the same standard, and therefore require the same grades to get on the course so new uni's are treated no differently from old ones.
Kids should have the same oppertunities at school to do well and pass the 11+
If you pass, you go off to grammer schools. As a bright kid in a state school, my education suffered because the teachers always had to teach at the lowest kid's level. I excelled in classes where we were seperated into ability groups, and then there's the bullying from those kids because they're jealous of your ablility even though if they'd actually bothered to pay attention they'd be up there with you.
The other kids who aren't suited for uni or don't want to go, carry on with their GCSEs.
The value of degrees will start to go back up then.
Fewer people will go to uni because those who would have dropped out, or aren't actually good enough to pass, haven't been able to get there to waste money.
paulyoung666
10-01-2004, 12:15
i have often wondered about the national service bit , mind you there are that many do-gooders about that they would probably say it was damaging to be forced into doing summat they didnt want to do :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Sociable
10-01-2004, 12:29
Interesting thread. :)
Wondering if I as a social worker should wait to post until we get the fluffy "cloud" like quotes back as I would hate to disappoint Russ by using normal ones. LOL
Seriously though this is a complex subject and I will get my act together later and make a proper contribution as I know Kronas would appreciate this topic being treated with all due respect as he raises many interesting points worthy of a considered reply.
i have often wondered about the national service bit , mind you there are that many do-gooders about that they would probably say it was damaging to be forced into doing summat they didnt want to do :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
It's not so much being a do-gooder, some people just have an aversion to killing, would you be able to sleep knowing you'd taken someone's son/father/brother/uncle away from them?
Seriously though this is a complex subject and I will get my act together later and make a proper contribution as I know Kronas would appreciate this topic being treated with all due respect as he raises many interesting points worthy of a considered reply.
That would be great Soc, as you're on the front line as it were :)
In the meantime, Russ, can you find Soc some " " smilies :D
It's not so much being a do-gooder, some people just have an aversion to killing, would you be able to sleep knowing you'd taken someone's son/father/brother/uncle away from them?
i agree.....there are people out there who do not like violence, who think it is wrong to take someone elses life....
if we were to bring back national service, would women be included?
i also have to say that i agree with timewarrior..... i think that it may seem as though there is more crime but maybe it is a case that due to the increase of the media, and the fact that we have more technology, so it is easier to find out things which occur over the seas, that there does seem to be more crime.... or maybe people are becoming better at reporting crime??? :shrug:
maybe this is because a lot of crime is against people's belongings, and since we seem to live in a more materalistic world (no comment on whether this is a good or bad thing) and people seem to value their possessions more, in most cases having things insured, if they do not report some kind of break in, damage to their property then they will not have the insurance pay out
with things such as rape and abuse, maybe the stigma attached to being raped and the help that is now available means that people are more willing to come forward and report the incident, than they were before
as for society going down hill..a friend from work and i were discussing this issue the other day, she comes from south africa and have lived over here for a few years, she commented that this country seems to be going the same way as places over there went..... i do not know how true this is, but personally i have noticed that in my village the crime rate has gone up dramamtically in the last 10years... but then maybe it is because i have become older and notice things more
i know some people say that the lack of morals that this country is now exhibiting is due to the lack of church and religion being taught in schools (sorry to introduce religion kronie but i feel that this could be relevant to the discussion)...... i am not going to argue for or against this point but i thought it worthy of even a small mention
another thing which could be occuring is that parents are not teaching their kids manners....in a lot of families both parents work, and do not always have time to spend with their kids...... i ahve noticed the lack of respect for ones elders, the lack of manners etc which are shown in the younger generation.......but by the same token, my nephew has been taught to say please and thank you, and move out of the way if someone is walking along the path towards him, and nine times out of ten the elderly people he moves out of the way for do not thank him..... perhaps we are just thinking more about things, noticing them more....i am not sure
(sorry for the essay guys, there are loads of things i could say on this issue)
paulyoung666
10-01-2004, 13:27
It's not so much being a do-gooder, some people just have an aversion to killing, would you be able to sleep knowing you'd taken someone's son/father/brother/uncle away from them?
good counter attack , must admit i had never looked at it from that perspective :)
timewarrior2001
10-01-2004, 17:54
i
another thing which could be occuring is that parents are not teaching their kids manners....in a lot of families both parents work, and do not always have time to spend with their kids...... i ahve noticed the lack of respect for ones elders, the lack of manners etc which are shown in the younger generation.......but by the same token, my nephew has been taught to say please and thank you, and move out of the way if someone is walking along the path towards him, and nine times out of ten the elderly people he moves out of the way for do not thank him..... perhaps we are just thinking more about things, noticing them more....i am not sure
(sorry for the essay guys, there are loads of things i could say on this issue)Thats a good point Bexy, I was often given a "good hiding" when I was naughty. It has not actually done me any harm, it made me fear doing wrong because I knew A) I would get caught and B) i'd get the slipper for my actions.
I really do think that some of these kids these days do need a bloody good hiding, I dont mean go over board but their parents need to exercise a bit of parental control.
However......
I see a lot of old people that dont seem to have the manners they were born with. I have been shoved out of the way by little old ladies in the local ASDA, I get my legs bruised to hell as they repeatedly slam trolleys into my legs because I have only left 99% of the isle free for them to get past.
Theres even one old woman turned to me and told me to "**** off out of her way she was in a hurry". I was deemed wrong by everyone else because I told her to "**** off".
I cant and wont comment much on the church/ religion side of things as I dont believe in religion. However yes in days gone by the church stood as an ethical guide, however in these days I doubt very much the church could be considered fit to guide others. (Apologies for the general tar and feathering but I think people will understand what I am getting at).
I'd like to just add that I am waiting for the day I am arrested for belting these little ****s in the street. It will happen, as I often give them a slap, usually for throwing stones and bricks at cars/windows/old people. But sometimes for their cheek. If they are old enough to threaten violence and steal things they are old enough to have the living **** beaten out of them.
Finally apologies for the bad language :)
another thing which could be occuring is that parents are not teaching their kids manners....in a lot of families both parents work, and do not always have time to spend with their kids...... i ahve noticed the lack of respect for ones elders, the lack of manners etc which are shown in the younger generation.......but by the same token, my nephew has been taught to say please and thank you, and move out of the way if someone is walking along the path towards him, and nine times out of ten the elderly people he moves out of the way for do not thank him..... perhaps we are just thinking more about things, noticing them more....i am not sure
this is what i was trying to say, it seems to me that there are a growing number of people, who lack manners respect, values, even men treating women inappropriately seems to be on the increase, i still think the enviroment you are in, also plays a major part in what you do, how you maintain yourself,ie getting a job, turning to crime,it could also be genetic,
i notice similarities between the way i work in terms of social behavior against my parents.
(just to clarify on the similarities bit between my parents, i mean that the way i do things and portray myself personality wise, i have similarities with my parents)
I knew a woman who hadn't done a days work in her life.
She was 38
Her eldest son was a heroine addict and would steal things to feed his habbit.
Her daughter used speed all the time and was sleeping with her mother's bf
Her middle son hadn't been to school for 2 years, for some reason this was the LEA's fault not hers. She didn't put any value on education as she didn't have one. Often I'd see her "reading" the news paper even though it was upside down
Her 2 year old son couldn't speak, but thanks to his elder siblings having fun, he was able to swear like a trooper.
All she could say about this was "What can I do? I'm just their mother"
timewarrior2001
10-01-2004, 18:13
I knew a woman who hadn't done a days work in her life.
She was 38
Her eldest son was a heroine addict and would steal things to feed his habbit.
Her daughter used speed all the time and was sleeping with her mother's bf
Her middle son hadn't been to school for 2 years, for some reason this was the LEA's fault not hers. She didn't put any value on education as she didn't have one. Often I'd see her "reading" the news paper even though it was upside down
Her 2 year old son couldn't speak, but thanks to his elder siblings having fun, he was able to swear like a trooper.
All she could say about this was "What can I do? I'm just their mother"
Perhaps its time to bring in an aptitude test before being allowed to have kids.
I also think that if your on state benefit you should not be allowed ot have more than two children. Draconian I know but it certainly would help improve matters.
Seriously though this is a complex subject and I will get my act together later and make a proper contribution as I know Kronas would appreciate this topic being treated with all due respect as he raises many interesting points worthy of a considered reply.Look m8, it's Saturday, take it easy, take the day off and just have a drink :D
Perhaps its time to bring in an aptitude test before being allowed to have kids.
I also think that if your on state benefit you should not be allowed ot have more than two children. Draconian I know but it certainly would help improve matters.That reminds me of a film I saw....the character said: 'people need a licence to have a dog but not a kid' :(
Thats a good point Bexy,*snip* Finally apologies for the bad language :)Good rant timewarrior.....
That reminds me of a film I saw....the character said: 'people need a licence to have a dog but not a kid' :(
Keanu Reeves, Parenthood.
Very wise words spoken.
Just think of the benifits if they were able to medically prevent people having kids?
Shag fest! :naughty:
i thought i would bring this in to the thread..................
universial music group,is attempting to launch a 24 hour music channel uncensored called '1 am'.
it has already gained interest in a few compaines, willing to fund the project such as eminem's 'shady records' and a porn company and talent agency
the channel will be a pay channel, and available in the US for the timebeing.
'hype tv' is set to rival it, setup up by p.diddy :rolleyes:
http://www.eurweb.com/articles/headlines/01092004/headlines1274101092004.cfm
now, i have no problems with more music stations, but 2 more that will show uncensored lyrics, now to me this is going OTT this is the type of thing i am talking about when society is going downhill,i dont mind rap music, hip hop with lyrics that carry parental warning labels on cd's,but television is a medium that is influential to young people,would you like the next generation to be brought up on the useless wordings that are used by some artists,a twisting of words to fit a meaning, using stupid phrases made up by artists, encouraging gun crime.
im not against any of these artists,but there is a limit to everything, and as the saying goes 'you reap what you sow' think about it..............
timewarrior2001
10-01-2004, 18:43
i thought i would bring this in to the thread..................
universial music group,is attempting to launch a 24 hour music channel uncensored called '1 am'.
it has already gained interest in a few compaines, willing to fund the project such as eminem's 'shady records' and a porn company and talent agency
the channel will be a pay channel, and available in the US for the timebeing.
'hype tv' is set to rival it, setup up by p.diddy :rolleyes:
http://www.eurweb.com/articles/headlines/01092004/headlines1274101092004.cfm
now, i have no problems with more music stations, but 2 more that will show uncensored lyrics, now to me this is going OTT this is the type of thing i am talking about when society is going downhill,i dont mind rap music, hip hop with lyrics that carry parental warning labels on cd's,but television is a medium that is influential to young people,would you like the next generation to be brought up on the useless wordings that are used by some artists,a twisting of words to fit a meaning, using stupid phrases made up by artists, encouraging gun crime.
im not against any of these,but there is a limit to everything, and as the saying goes 'you reap what you sow' think about it..............
Kronas, I think this thread is without doubt the best thread on here to date but I do strongly dis-agree with your last post.....
In your last post you seem to be inferring that heavily censoring lyrics of a song would improve the world.
It was tried in the US in the 80's they tried to ban kids from listening to rock and heavy metal. You could actually commit your child to an institute where they were de-programmed fomr the heavy metal, not allowed ot listen to the music nor wear clothing associated with the musical style. This in effect probably did more damage to the children than the lyrics on the records.
To quote Ice-T in freedom of speach "you gotta be high to believe your gonna change the world by a sticker on a record sleeve".
Censorship of this kind will breed further dissent.
If anyone needed proof that morals in this day and age have gone out the window, then Kronas' link says it all.
Flubflow
10-01-2004, 18:48
Perhaps its time to bring in an aptitude test before being allowed to have kids.
I also think that if your on state benefit you should not be allowed ot have more than two children. Draconian I know but it certainly would help improve matters.
I think "cropspraying" all secondary schools and with a contraceptive drug from the air might be a good start. I'd happily volunteer to fly the aircraft for free.
Kronas, I think this thread is without doubt the best thread on here to date but I do strongly dis-agree with your last post.....
In your last post you seem to be inferring that heavily censoring lyrics of a song would improve the world.
It was tried in the US in the 80's they tried to ban kids from listening to rock and heavy metal. You could actually commit your child to an institute where they were de-programmed fomr the heavy metal, not allowed ot listen to the music nor wear clothing associated with the musical style. This in effect probably did more damage to the children than the lyrics on the records.
ill clarify my point, i dont believe in censorship, it has never hurt me to listen to lyrics of that nature or violent movies, but what i am saying is there seems to be an overexposure of this type of media,aimed at youngsters that is my problem with it.
Censorship of this kind will breed further dissent.
agreed i hope you understand my point :)
If anyone needed proof that morals in this day and age have gone out the window, then Kronas' link says it all.
yes,that is correct, shall we go in to the finer points of pornography etc, or is that going too far :D
I think "cropspraying" all secondary schools and with a contraceptive drug from the air might be a good start. I'd happily volunteer to fly the aircraft for free.
no dont,we already have declining sperm counts what about the future.........
Sociable
10-01-2004, 18:56
Fair point Timewarrior but Kronas is right to highlight this particular aspect of the influence of "pop" culture.
If you look back over the years music has always played a part of the natural rebelion that is being a teenager. In their day even some now well respected classical composers met with the same reaction as the bands of the 50's 60's 70's 80's etc etc and I suspect that same will still be true in the 25th century.
The big difference though is that a large part of the point kronas is making is that this new venture is all about profit and nothing to do with teenage rebellion. If anything it's more to do with middle aged money men finding yet another way to exploit those very teenagers. I know this has always been part of the process but these latest moves do take it to a new level.
Keanu Reeves, Parenthood.
Very wise words spoken. Thats the one, wow!
Just think of the benifits if they were able to medically prevent people having kids?
Shag fest! :naughty:
Hmmm....thats almost eugenics. It was popular in the states and other places before WW2 but fell out of favour after the war because Hitler tried it a little too enthusiastically(understatement of the century :rolleyes: ). Power corrupts etc.....(sh*t! I'm turning into Graham! :D )
I think "cropspraying" all secondary schools and with a contraceptive drug from the air might be a good start. I'd happily volunteer to fly the aircraft for free.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :D
Flubflow
10-01-2004, 19:29
no dont,we already have declining sperm counts what about the future.........
I said contraceptives, not spermicides. :)
Technicalities of ariel deployment of contraceptives aside ;), what we really do not want is an increasing population of 15 year old single mothers who's only future is a depressing life on benefits in a skanky housing estate whilst their kids grow up causing mayhem on the way only to eventually continue the exact same family tradition. Solution? I wish I knew. Perhaps taking away the idea that a 16 y/o mother with a kid can jump a que for housing might be a good thing. Forcing them to continue to live with their parent(s) for a few years might lessen the appeal for them to "gerra cooncil hoose". Hell, I remember when married working couples with no kids used to live with parents until they could afford to get a house of their own and all that before even considering kids. Then again, I used to live in a shoe box in t' middle o' road so what the hell do I know. :D
Actually, I think I read somewhere that unplanned teenage pregnancies were on the decline. Even so, it would take a very, very long time before we saw any real social improvements and reduction in crime as a consequence.
Hmmm....thats almost eugenics. It was popular in the states and other places before WW2 but fell out of favour after the war because Hitler tried it a little too enthusiastically(understatement of the century :rolleyes: ). Power corrupts etc.....(sh*t! I'm turning into Graham! :D )
I always thought eugenics was breeding with a specific genetic outcome in mind (Paul Atreides?)
Anyway the advantages I was talking about related to the shag fest bit anyway :D
I said contraceptives, not spermicides. :)
i thought you said spray.........i stand corrected :)
Technicalities of ariel deployment of contraceptives aside ;), what we really do not want is an increasing population of 15 year old single mothers who's only future is a depressing life on benefits in a skanky housing estate whilst their kids grow up causing mayhem on the way only to eventually continue the exact same family tradition. Solution? I wish I knew. Perhaps taking away the idea that a 16 y/o mother with a kid can jump a que for housing might be a good thing. Forcing them to continue to live with their parent(s) for a few years might lessen the appeal of them to "gerra cooncil hoose".
i think the consensus,mentality of young parents is, that its ok to get pregenant,some claim that they didnt know having intercourse would achieve a creation of a human being,going back to the 15/16 year olds thinking its ok to have a child,they know whatever the parents do to them they can seek sanctuary with the council,i agree with the idea that taking away the right to have a council house due to those circumstances is something to be looked in to.
Hell I remember when married working couples with no kids used to live with parents until they could afford to get a house of their own and all that before even considering kids. Then again, I used to live in a shoe box in t' middle o' road so what the hell do I know. :D
you can say, the benefits system has its part to play, in taking the easy way out of a situation.
Actually, I think I read somewhere that unplanned teenage pregnancies were on the decline. Even so, it would take a very, very long time before we saw any real social improvements and reduction in crime as a consequence.
there is still a high rate, when compared to other european countries.
I think "cropspraying" all secondary schools and with a contraceptive drug from the air might be a good start. I'd happily volunteer to fly the aircraft for free.
This is, without doubt, the funniest post I have seen for a while. :rofl:
Respect to you. :)
Cropspraying? Cattleprods more like it.
Cropspraying? Cattleprods more like it.
now now russ, be nice to some of us poor young misguided souls :angel:
I always thought eugenics was breeding with a specific genetic outcome in mind (Paul Atreides?)
Possibly. I was talking about state control of 'breeding' and genetic traits
This is, without doubt, the funniest post I have seen for a while. :rofl:
Respect to you. :)It's a good 'un! :D
Possibly. I was talking about state control of 'breeding' and genetic traits
Population control like in china.
Population control like in china.
although i agree that some people do not deserve to have children,i dont agree with it in principle,because im sure it would be in breach of some human rights convention, and china is not the best example for this really.
just looking at it realistically :)
Population control like in china.
and also like sterilizing 'retarded' girls. :(
although i agree that some people do not deserve to have children,i dont agree with it in principle,because im sure it would be in breach of some human rights convention, and china is not the best example for this really.
just looking at it realistically :)
China's in an awkward position where their population is too large for their economy to handle, so population control is for the benifit of the entire nation, and couples can still have children.
Denying couples the ablility to have a child because they aren't fit to have children is an interesting one.
Who decides somene won't be a fit parent?
You might be a total dick before you have a child, but holding that baby in your arms could totally change you.
Or you could be an upstanding member of the community, but end up being a crap parent.
Right!
Can I suggest that;
A.Everyone stops reading the Sun.
B.We stop watching 24 hour News channels.
C.We step away from the PC for at least 20 hours of every day.
I'm disagree with kronas entirely.I just don't believe that the world is as bad as all that or that 'society' is worse than it was.It's just different.However the majority are still as hardworking,responsible and as caring as in our parents day.We mustn't let the news media sell us on the idea that things are worse when it's just different.When I was younger we just had one newspaper a day(not counting the local evening rag) and we watched the evening news.We did not have breakfast news,24 hour news or online news.
We did have neutral reporting from the BBC however but that has not been the case or some time now.News has been become very political these days.
How about you look around at the people you know and the life you lead.Look at the area in which you live.Are the people really worse than when you were a child?I can do so and say a resounding NO!
Incog. :Peaceman:
Thats a good point Bexy, I was often given a "good hiding" when I was naughty. It has not actually done me any harm, it made me fear doing wrong because I knew A) I would get caught and B) i'd get the slipper for my actions.
I really do think that some of these kids these days do need a bloody good hiding, I dont mean go over board but their parents need to exercise a bit of parental control.
However......
I see a lot of old people that dont seem to have the manners they were born with. I have been shoved out of the way by little old ladies in the local ASDA, I get my legs bruised to hell as they repeatedly slam trolleys into my legs because I have only left 99% of the isle free for them to get past.
Theres even one old woman turned to me and told me to "**** off out of her way she was in a hurry". I was deemed wrong by everyone else because I told her to "**** off".
I cant and wont comment much on the church/ religion side of things as I dont believe in religion. However yes in days gone by the church stood as an ethical guide, however in these days I doubt very much the church could be considered fit to guide others. (Apologies for the general tar and feathering but I think people will understand what I am getting at).
I'd like to just add that I am waiting for the day I am arrested for belting these little ****s in the street. It will happen, as I often give them a slap, usually for throwing stones and bricks at cars/windows/old people. But sometimes for their cheek. If they are old enough to threaten violence and steal things they are old enough to have the living **** beaten out of them.
Finally apologies for the bad language :)
timewarrior although i was never given a "good hiding" i knew that i would get in serious trouble if i ever did anything wrong... i was bought up to have respect for my elders, something my grandad used to say to mum and my aunts and uncles was that f he ever caught them stealing, then he would "cut their hands off"...gandad died when i was six it has always had an impact on me....of course he wouldnt have literally done it but the threat was there.....
my sister on the otherhand does not seem to have any respect of her elders, although she was bought up in the same family as me.....
and timewarrior we thank the lord that we have profanity filters on here, boy did you swear some :p
and p.s. it winds me up when the older generation whinges about "kids these days" when they exhibit ten times less manners than we do
edit: 2000 posts boy i need to get a life :rofl:
this is what i was trying to say, it seems to me that there are a growing number of people, who lack manners respect, values, even men treating women inappropriately seems to be on the increase, i still think the enviroment you are in, also plays a major part in what you do, how you maintain yourself,ie getting a job, turning to crime,it could also be genetic,
i notice similarities between the way i work in terms of social behavior against my parents.
(just to clarify on the similarities bit between my parents, i mean that the way i do things and portray myself personality wise, i have similarities with my parents)
that seems to me to be the whole nature vs nurture debate...are we who we are because of our genes or because of the envirnoment that we were bought up in
again i will call upon the example of my sister and i...we were obviously bought up in the same environment but yet we have turned out to be completely different people...she doesn't have a job, is a complete lazy arse, very aggressive, has been in trouble with the law etc....whereas although i am far from perfect, i have pushed myself academically, always tried to be polite and respectful towards others and just generally be the opposite of everything she is (she is the younger sibling)
Right!
Can I suggest that;
A.Everyone stops reading the Sun.
B.We stop watching 24 hour News channels.
C.We step away from the PC for at least 20 hours of every day.
But, but......ramrod contemplates the void opening up before him :D
Right!
Can I suggest that;
A.Everyone stops reading the Sun.
B.We stop watching 24 hour News channels.
C.We step away from the PC for at least 20 hours of every day.
I'm disagree with kronas entirely.I just don't believe that the world is as bad as all that or that 'society' is worse than it was.It's just different.However the majority are still as hardworking,responsible and as caring as in our parents day.We mustn't let the news media sell us on the idea that things are worse when it's just different.When I was younger we just had one newspaper a day(not counting the local evening rag) and we watched the evening news.We did not have breakfast news,24 hour news or online news.
We did have neutral reporting from the BBC however but that has not been the case or some time now.News has been become very political these days.
How about you look around at the people you know and the life you lead.Look at the area in which you live.Are the people really worse than when you were a child?I can do so and say a resounding NO!
Incog. :Peaceman:
another good post from you coggy..... i havea lot of respect for you and your views and feel that you always express yourself coherent and in a none defensive way......ok enough of a pat on the back...
i think that you have illustrated what i mentioned way back towards the beginning of this thread that due to the development in media we have access far more readily to details of what is going on it the world, but we also need to remember that the newspersons persepctive and interpretation is put onto the news stories as well
i got fed up of reading and hearing about all the bad things that go on in the world and thus stopped reading papers and watching the news.....funny thing is nine times out of ten the media ignore it when good things are done, when people do something heroic or just nice for someone else...even the local papers generally avoid reporting things like this..why? because in a way i think we get a morbid sense of enjoyment in watching the bad things that are going on around us while we sit in our cozy little homes....
my philosophy has always been, be nice to those around you and don't stress about things you have no control over.....
ntl customer
10-01-2004, 22:34
I also think it is due to the lack of respect for people in general, lack of discipline (sp?) from parents and manners. Althought I may sound 16 going on 70, it in my personal opinion is what is driving the downward trend in society.
I find it really appaling that parents can allow their 11/12 year old children to go out at night (I have seen them congregating around in gangs outside mcdonalds). There is an article in the local newspaper (complete with photographs) about some young teenage thugs running around chucking rolls of burning newspaper everywhere and generally being a pain in the arse to society (setting on fire the newspaper recycling bins). I never read about this kind of stupidly dangerous antisocial behaviour a few years back. It is only recently this sort of stupid behaviour seems to have happened, together with the rise in vandalism, no doubt comitted by people within the 12 - 25 agegroup. Have you ever seen a pensioner smash up a telephone box?
They seem to think it is OK to repeatedly smash up glass in bus stops, daub paint over the keypad in telephone boxes and smash the glass of the kiosk and scrawl their hideous graffiti over any surface they see fit (including the glass of bus stop timetables, I mean how bloody stupid and pointless is that ?!) - and all of this the companies/council have to cover the cost of. A few years back, I never saw bus stops being vandalised time and time again frequently - OK maybe very rarely but it would never happen again for ages and not on the scale it is today. Call the area I live in what you like - suburbia, commuterland etc but it certainly never was as "rough" as it was a few years back. There would never be a gang of drunk teenagers hanging around in the park at godknowswhathour in the morning and smashing their bottles and scattering the remnants on the path alongside it and certainly there would be no setting fire to newly erected dustbins on the side of the road. All of this I have now seen/heard on a regular basis as I live only a few minutes walk away.
From what I have read in the papers and seen on TV, the excuse for this kind of behavior is boredom apparently. I think this is one of the most stupid excuses for such behaviour. When I am bored I do not think "oh, I'm bored, I think I'll smash the window of this bus stop with a stone" or "I'll go and rob that old lady walking down the road" or "I'll set fire to the sh*te in this dustbin". Boredom maybe a factor, but there have to be more factors that influence such behaviour. Even if I was really bored, I would not see vandalism and graffiti as an appropriate activity.
I was always taught when I was young to say please and thank you, put my rubbish in the bin etc. Nowadays they think it is acceptable to say "f*ck off to a teacher and treat the road as their rubbish bin, tossing their sweet wrappers and lumps of chewing gum on the pavement. Seems that quite a lot of that has gone out the window and the amount of times I see people being rude or not bothering to put their rubbish in a bin or take it home with them and binning it then really makes me think where manners, respect and consideration for other people and the environment has gone to. Is it really that hard just to say please, thanks, hold open doors for people and bin your rubbish?
And although my rant maybe mainly about younger people, I do agree that older people, in particularly pensioners can be a bit youknowwhat too. Although they may not to the extent of smashing bus stops and daubing paint over telephone boxes they can at times be inconsiderate to people too and rude. But most pensioners I have met are on the whole nice people and the same goes for most young people. It's just the ********* of society which seem to cause the most problems, and we should stop it from spreading further.
I'd like to just add that I am waiting for the day I am arrested for belting these little ****s in the street. It will happen, as I often give them a slap, usually for throwing stones and bricks at cars/windows/old people. But sometimes for their cheek. If they are old enough to threaten violence and steal things they are old enough to have the living **** beaten out of them.
I would love just to get these cocky little sh*ts that are full of themselves and who are responsible for such behaviour as described above and give them a good kicking without punishment.
I am not a violent person, but these people who do said antisocial behaviour deserve to be punished to the fullest extent, and not put on some stupid "rehabilitation" course in some cushy young offenders place where they get to leave early for good behaviour and TV sets in their cells or being told to go to their rooms by their parents where they can watch TV, play on their playstation or text people on their must have toy called a mobile phone.
Also I believe their right to anonymity under the law when they are under 18 should be waived too. It just makes me want to scream when I see the phrase "the (insert age here) year old (insert sex here) who cannot be named for legal reasons" in reports in the local rag. Although I heard of all that stuff about the paedophiles being named and shamed in the sun and the vigilantes driving them underground, I doubt the same will happen with people doing things like this. But if the vigilantes help to stop such unlawful and pain-in-the-arse-to-society behaviour amongst the groups of young thugs that hang around, then I'm all for it.
And I know this sounds a bit stupid but they should also they should ban the wearing of hooded tops and baseball hats at the same type, as these, from the photographs in the newspaper, can help to cover the identifying features of the assailant such as their hair colour, whether they wear earrings, if they have any tattoos etc. And the top bit of the baseball hat also helps to conceal their part of their face from CCTV cameras.
In my day it was the wearing of mini skirts that was supposed to be the problem. :rolleyes:
I think we are all talking about a minority here.Unfortunately they get an unfair amount of attention from the media and so the impression is left that there are really more of them than there really are.
The majority of people(young or old) are not bullies or thugs.Elderly people are not as rude as all that,in fact most of them are more scared to be out because of the media's constant over reporting of crime.
Incog. :)
I think we are all talking about a minority here.Unfortunately they get an unfair amount of attention from the media and so the impression is left that there are really more of them than there really are.
The majority of people(young or old) are not bullies or thugs.Elderly people are not as rude as all that,in fact most of them are more scared to be out because of the media's constant over reporting of crime.
Incog. :)
but its a growing minority as you have seen incog, many have expressed there viewson there surroundings, and how it has changed, and you cannot deny that things are] getting worse because they are, and we are letting them be anti social, parents, social workers, as someone pointed out the rehab centers, which offer,tv's snooker tables etc i think there needs to be an overhaul of the systems that are put in place for the young offenders,but what can you do about the elders,after all you go near them and they suspect you will snatch there purse :rolleyes:
Right!
Can I suggest that;
A.Everyone stops reading the Sun.
i dont read newspapers
B.We stop watching 24 hour News channels.
hardly do any of that
C.We step away from the PC for at least 20 hours of every day.
most of us do :shrugs:
I'm disagree with kronas entirely.I just don't believe that the world is as bad as all that or that 'society' is worse than it was.It's just different.
there are many, as well as me who disagree with you
However the majority are still as hardworking,responsible and as caring as in our parents day.We mustn't let the news media sell us on the idea that things are worse when it's just different.When I was younger we just had one newspaper a day(not counting the local evening rag) and we watched the evening news.We did not have breakfast news,24 hour news or online news.
We did have neutral reporting from the BBC however but that has not been the case or some time now.News has been become very political these days.
as some cases in this thread have highlighted personal experiances by people, would differ from what you say, but i agree that there are some hardworkers out there, but too many few and far between.
How about you look around at the people you know and the life you lead.Look at the area in which you live.Are the people really worse than when you were a child?I can do so and say a resounding NO!
yes, people are more likely backstab you now, maybe because when you growup things change, but if you put it that way yes.
Flubflow
11-01-2004, 05:03
Right!
Can I suggest that;
A.Everyone stops reading the Sun.
B.We stop watching 24 hour News channels.
C.We step away from the PC for at least 20 hours of every day.
I'm disagree with kronas entirely.I just don't believe that the world is as bad as all that or that 'society' is worse than it was.It's just different.However the majority are still as hardworking,responsible and as caring as in our parents day.We mustn't let the news media sell us on the idea that things are worse when it's just different.When I was younger we just had one newspaper a day(not counting the local evening rag) and we watched the evening news.We did not have breakfast news,24 hour news or online news.
We did have neutral reporting from the BBC however but that has not been the case or some time now.News has been become very political these days.
How about you look around at the people you know and the life you lead.Look at the area in which you live.Are the people really worse than when you were a child?I can do so and say a resounding NO!
Incog. :Peaceman:
That is just so monumentaly glib and brimming over with wrongability.
A. I don't read The Sun. I only look at the pictures in someone elses copy sometimes.
B. Does it still count if I only watch 24 hour News channels for just one hour a day.
C. If I step away from the PC then not only will I not get any work done but also I'll only end up reading The Sun or watching 24 hour news channels.
:D
Can I suggest that you also listen to real people telling real truths.
Where do YOU live? Noddyland? Alternatively, maybe you were really a damn naughty nasty little sprog when you were a kid and that is why you think today's society is no worse.
We have all heard the old cliche that you used to be able to leave your front door wide open all day and you never got burgled. It was actually true. In the 60's and for most of the 70's you really could leave your door wide open during the day and unlocked all night. I'm not saying that was a really clever and useful thing to do for everyone but it just gives you an idea of how unlikely it was that you would suffer from crime. You just FELT safe because it WAS safer back then.
Now, nearly everyone has been abused and burgled at some point and nearly everyone has a burglar alarm. Do people use them for ornaments? No, it is because they or their neighbours have been burgled and they are **** scared.
There are huge groups of youths milling around everywhere abusing people and property. Who in the hell remembers walking around the streets all night in gangs of 10-20 when they were kids. I can't remember such a thing (unless perhaps we were arranging a good game of football in the middle of a field).
I AM looking around this nice little place we live and things really ARE worse now.
There is practically nowhere you can go to escape this evil spawn which is infesting every every town in the UK. You think you can escape it by moving to a "nicer" place but eventually it seems to follow you around like a bad fart at a wedding.
This is not a figbox of my imagination. This is not some 24 hour media hype tripe that we are being continously fishslapped with. This really is life as we know it jim.
Solutions on a postcard to BBC News 24 please.
Street violence rises (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-959648,00.html)
Street violence rises (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-959648,00.html)
interesting, according to some there is no problem in this country,that serves as a wake up call for some of you doesent it ?
im glad i have never, and will never drink alcohol, it causes more problems then it solves, no wait it solves nothing does it ? drown you sorrows for a couple of hours, pass out, have a fight, its all good ? :rolleyes:
interesting, according to some there is no problem in this country,that serves as a wake up call for some of you doesent it ?
im glad i have never, and will never drink alcohol, it causes more problems then it solves, no wait it solves nothing does it ? drown you sorrows for a couple of hours, pass out, have a fight, its all good ? :rolleyes:
I have to disagree with you there kronas, I drink alcohol and it has never got me into a fight. I would go as far as to say I make more of an effort to stay away from trouble when I have had a drink. this is not something that has happened as I have got older it has always been the way for me, why start a fight when you are not thinking straight and your reactions are slowed.
It's far better to leave it alone and go back the following night when sober!
People handle alcohol differently, some go silly and laugh/joke, others fall asleep and some get violent, it's another example of the media again that you are only hearing about the ones that get violent. :eek:
I agree with what ntl customer says about anonymity for minors, it is totally wrong if they are big enough to commit the crime the community should know who they are. I can think of a few examples locally that have made my blood boil at these kids getting away without their names being printed.
In one recent case in a local town, a young gang went out looking for someone to kill, (seriously) they chose their victim at a local funfair. this was a young girl of around 11 or so, the one "who cannot be legally named"
Jumped on her victim that was just singled out from the crowd for no reason and stabbed her repeatably. Fortunately a man came along and stopped her with force, in the local newspaper he said that peolple at the scene were then having a go at him for interfering, as he should not grab hold/hit a juvenile like that. This guy should of got a pat on the back and a medal for taking on some deranged teenager who sole purpouse was out to kill someone with a knife, however hard he hit the teenager who was holding the knife it was not hard enough as far as I am concerned. :eek:
I have to disagree with you there kronas, I drink alcohol and it has never got me into a fight. I would go as far as to say I make more of an effort to stay away from trouble when I have had a drink. this is not something that has happened as I have got older it has always been the way for me, why start a fight when you are not thinking straight and your reactions are slowed.
It's far better to leave it alone and go back the following night when sober!
first of all, i did not mean for my statement to imply that everyone who drinks alcohol is automatially a trouble maker, as that is incorrect
People handle alcohol differently, some go silly and laugh/joke, others fall asleep and some get violent, it's another example of the media again that you are only hearing about the ones that get violent. :eek:
i know the media,how they work, and i do understand your point and i agree, it was my bad on the wording :)
I agree with what ntl customer says about anonymity for minors, it is totally wrong if they are big enough to commit the crime the community should know who they are. I can think of a few examples locally that have made my blood boil at these kids getting away without their names being printed.
In one recent case in a local town, a young gang went out looking for someone to kill, (seriously) they chose their victim at a local funfair. this was a young girl of around 11 or so, the one "who cannot be legally named"
Jumped on her victim that was just singled out from the crowd for no reason and stabbed her repeatably. Fortunately a man came along and stopped her with force, in the local newspaper he said that peolple at the scene were then having a go at him for interfering, as he should not grab hold/hit a juvenile like that. This guy should of got a pat on the back and a medal for taking on some deranged teenager who sole purpouse was out to kill someone with a knife, however hard he hit the teenager who was holding the knife it was not hard enough as far as I am concerned. :eek:
i agree as well on the anonymity issue and the guy, did the right thing
*note if you saw the end of my post it was a sarcastic smiley :)
Sociable
11-01-2004, 12:22
Right!
Can I suggest that;
A.Everyone stops reading the Sun.
B.We stop watching 24 hour News channels.
C.We step away from the PC for at least 20 hours of every day.
<SNIP>
How about you look around at the people you know and the life you lead.Look at the area in which you live.Are the people really worse than when you were a child?I can do so and say a resounding NO!
Incog. :Peaceman:
I have to agree with the others on this one Incog, things have changed since we were both kids. The world is definately not the same relatively safe place we grew up in.
The media and new technology certainly has altered our perceptions of the world and it is true that this somewhat distorts the degree of change perceived but it by no means accounts for the fundamental shift in the value base of the country.
I for one don't lay the blame for the changes just on youth because it is not just them that have adopted distorted values but society as a whole. In our youth the majority lived in "communities" where mutual support was the norm and thinking of others before ourselves was the standard we were judged by.
This changed through the 60's and 70's & 80's with the majority of society (of all ages not just the young) adopting a new, "think of yourself first" mentality, born out of the greed created by the new wealth those decades produced.
Things became more important than people and the old values of putting others first became the exception rather than the rule.
Whilst for the privileged majority it is true, living conditions and circumstances have improved, what is also true is that the gap between those who have much and those that have little has widened too. This applies both nationally and internationally and this brings us back to the impact of the media.
Here I find some agreement with your reference to the "Sun" as this along with the rest of the media has played a large part in the creation of myths such as all the ills being due to young single mothers or immigrants or asylum seekers or which ever scapegoat is the flavour of the month this week.
The handy bit about scapegoats is that it lets everyone else off the hook. The privileged can sit in their ivory towers feeling comfortable and complacent and most of all feeling guilt free.
Pointing the blame at others is not the answer, each of us as individuals owes it to mankind as a whole to play our part in making it a better world.
It is for that reason more than any other that I salute kronas for at least trying to investigate and come to grips with the concepts being discussed as I know part of this is his desire to do his best to make sure he himself makes a positive contribution to the world.
Way to go Kronas and kudos for having started this thread.
I for one don't lay the blame for the changes just on youth because it is not just them that have adopted distorted values but society as a whole. In our youth the majority lived in "communities" where mutual support was the norm and thinking of others before ourselves was the standard we were judged by.
i have definately seen this deteriorate in my young life,things are diffarent to say 8-9 years ago ok i was young then, but i was starting to understand things and when you start to communicate with other members of the community and close family that help each other,you know what is going around you,when it starts to disappear and becomes an 'each to there own' situation, it kind of saddens me because i still put myself out to help others in anyway i can at any time.
This changed through the 60's and 70's & 80's with the majority of society (of all ages not just the young) adopting a new, "think of yourself first" mentality, born out of the greed created by the new wealth those decades produced.
that is true money and greed has played its part, and anything is generally commercialised which is what is causing some of the anti social behavior and a downward spiral of attitudes towards others
It is for that reason more than any other that I salute kronas for at least trying to investigate and come to grips with the concepts being discussed as I know part of this is his desire to do his best to make sure he himself makes a positive contribution to the world.
Way to go Kronas and kudos for having started this thread.
stop making me :blush:
but you are indeed spot on again, its one of those things that i think about and think what if things would change,is this a trend, is it going to get worse
the lack of morals of which i would also like to establish is the general lack of keeping your dignity and reputation around the community, by introducing yourself to multiple relationships 'one off flings' etc
what i am trying to say is that too many people these days often dont think about the consequences of there actions,when engaging in relationships and marriage they tend to make a mockery out of them,this to me is unacceptable,i hope you all understand where i am coming you only need to ask me for clarification :)
I'm with incognitas on this one, back in the day there probably wasn't the technology to report every minor crime that was committed, nowaday's tabloids and news channels are more than willing to report any peice of chod that comes their way (and take delight in blowing most of it completely out of proportion).
An example is Kronas's comment on Belfast not too long ago, stating that no-one should go there, where do you think he got his opinion on the place? The whole while I've been in Northern Ireland I've not been mugged, bombed, kneecapped or beaten up, nor has anyone I know .. in fact, just about everybody's a lot more friendly than anyone in England I've ever met.
How many new's channels want to report that so and so did a good deed for whoever? Nowaday's none, it's not newsworthy, the only thing they want to report are the bad things that happen.
An example is Kronas's comment on Belfast not too long ago, stating that no-one should go there, where do you think he got his opinion on the place? The whole while I've been in Northern Ireland I've not been mugged, bombed, kneecapped or beaten up, nor has anyone I know .. in fact, just about everybody's a lot more friendly than anyone in England I've ever met.
was that the thread involving russ going away...........
if thats the one, then i was having a laugh with him im sure i used a smiley like this :eek:
Sociable
11-01-2004, 12:53
what i am trying to say is that too many people these days often dont think about the consequences of there actions,when engaging in relationships and marriage they tend to make a mockery out of them,this to me is unacceptable,i hope you all understand where i am coming you only need to ask me for clarification :)
Well said young man. :)
It's all about remembering that rights carry responsibilities and privilege carrying a duty to consider others.
What used to be called "Honour" back in the days when it was still fashionable to be honourable.
was that the thread involving russ going away...........
if thats the one, then i was having a laugh with him im sure i used a smiley like this :eek:
That's fair enough BUT would you use a line like that, amusing or not in relation to somewhere you considered nice and peaceful?
It's all about remembering that rights carry responsibilities and privilege carrying a duty to consider others.
these days responsibilities are not something that people are willing to pick up and improve others lives,such as an unwanted pregnancy,you will normally see one half of the parents shirk there responsability to care for the child, financially help it, give it a stable home and relationship with both sides, having a child is a special thing and people dont realise that,until its possibly too late and the adoption route is taken...............
What used to be called "Honour" back in the days when it was still fashionable to be honourable.
i dont think people have a caring ounce in there bodys these days(note i mean some) for others,they may show it by words but ultimately its your actions and what YOU do to help the person whatever a situation maybe
am i dragging on sorry, im just exploring diffarent avenues :)
I'm with incognitas on this one, back in the day there probably wasn't the technology to report every minor crime that was committed, nowaday's tabloids and news channels are more than willing to report any peice of chod that comes their way (and take delight in blowing most of it completely out of proportion).
An example is Kronas's comment on Belfast not too long ago, stating that no-one should go there, where do you think he got his opinion on the place? The whole while I've been in Northern Ireland I've not been mugged, bombed, kneecapped or beaten up, nor has anyone I know .. in fact, just about everybody's a lot more friendly than anyone in England I've ever met.
How many new's channels want to report that so and so did a good deed for whoever? Nowaday's none, it's not newsworthy, the only thing they want to report are the bad things that happen.
I knew someone who used to visit Londonderry on business quite often, he never had any trouble he said it was Ok as long as you placed your money in the hat when it was passed around the pub. :rolleyes: :D
I knew someone who used to visit Londonderry on business quite often, he never had any trouble he said it was Ok as long as you placed your money in the hat when it was passed around the pub. :rolleyes: :D
There's no London in Derry ;) That must have been the PDF ... the 'provo's drinking fund' sorry .. I mean the Prisoners Dependent Fund .. there's nothing like that over here any more, all the provo's from back in the day are now doing pretty well for themselves, have families, jobs etc and would rather forget about the last 30 odd years.
There's no London in Derry ;)
But if you take London out of Londonderry, then the airline Londonderry Air becomes......:rofl:
There's no London in Derry ;) That must have been the PDF ... the 'provo's drinking fund' sorry .. I mean the Prisoners Dependent Fund .. there's nothing like that over here any more, all the provo's from back in the day are now doing pretty well for themselves, have families, jobs etc and would rather forget about the last 30 odd years.
I confess my total ignorance for this subject, but would I be right if I assumed the place you refer to is named "Londonderry" for those who consider themselves British, and "Derry" to those who with to remain independant?
I confess my total ignorance for this subject, but would I be right if I assumed the place you refer to is named "Londonderry" for those who consider themselves British, and "Derry" to those who with to remain independant?
Nope .. it's the City of Derry, it was officially renamed.
Nope .. it's the City of Derry, it was officially renamed.
When was it officially renamed?
I must admit that I heard someone (Stupid ntl boss btw) mention Derry, I didnt have a clue where he was on about as it was Londonderry on the map I looked at. When I questioned he got a bit heated about it.
I assumed the same as Russ that it depended on political views what you called it, I admit to using it just to see how you reacted. :cool:
People only call it Londonderry to force a point home (normally protestants), when they do it, it's generally to provoke a reaction, however, most protestants refer to here as Derry, what with the local council being called "Derry City Council".
timewarrior2001
12-01-2004, 10:20
what i am trying to say is that too many people these days often dont think about the consequences of there actions,when engaging in relationships and marriage they tend to make a mockery out of them,this to me is unacceptable,i hope you all understand where i am coming you only need to ask me for clarification :)
Another good post Kronas, but I wonder about this mockery of marriage piece.
Again I'll use myself as an example, I do not believe in religion in any way shape or form, when I get married in two years time I will make the vows to my wife to be. As long as I uphold those vows I cannot be seen to be making a mockery of marriage. However the fact that I will be getting married in a church because I havent the heart to deny my future wife her dream wedding (she is also froma religious family) Makes a mockery from the religious point of view, How can I make vows before the eyes of someone I dont believe in?
Perhaps I am a worse person for not believing, I simply cant help that. I have no criminal convictions, I have a clean driving licence and the only time I was ever arrested was for drunk and incapable (detained for my own safety).
Surely its more important to make vows to one another than vows before god? It certainly is from my point of view.
Being an absent father is also something that worries me, like it or not people pre-judge absent fathers. I did nothing wrong yet I lost my son. Society still, when I talk of my son, assumes I did somehting wrong and forced my ex partner to leave. I hold my head up and admit that I was careless when it came to sex, I paid for this in the most heart breaking way. My son now lives 250 miles away from me and I have seen him only a few times.
Sociable
12-01-2004, 11:08
Surely its more important to make vows to one another than vows before god? It certainly is from my point of view.
Being an absent father is also something that worries me, like it or not people pre-judge absent fathers.
I hear you on both these points warrior, in my case I was the "innocent" party (if such a thing is possible as there is always a part played by both) but also suffered greatly by the "presumptions" made not just by others but also by the courts.
Two things that may help the first is realising that in some ways "absent" parents can contribute more than some who are present physically but not emotionally. The second is that over time things change and you may well find that your son will become far closer to you if not in distance but emotionally. The wounds do heal.
I also agree 100% that the vows people give to each other are the ones that count the "civil and "religious" ones are important but pale in comparison to those you pledge to each other.
The Mockery kronas refers to I think, is the number of people who give lip service to the "civil" vows without thinking of, or honouring, the personal vows they give to their partners. Hopefully your past experience has taught you the truth of this and this will strengthen the meaning of the vows you give to your new partner next time.
May I be the first to wish you long life and happiness with your new partner and a growing positive relationship with your son.
If you haven't yet found them, I would also suggest you do a search for an organisation called "Families Need Fathers", They may be able to help and advise on the constructive steps you can take to maintain contact with your son and also provide support from others who have shared the experience.
I personally know the pain of that loss but also the joy of being re-united both as a son and as a father, so hang in there things can and will improve on that front. I promise if you continue to be a father in your heart and mind your son will remain your son whatever else may happen.
Another good post Kronas, but I wonder about this mockery of marriage piece.
Again I'll use myself as an example, I do not believe in religion in any way shape or form, when I get married in two years time I will make the vows to my wife to be. As long as I uphold those vows I cannot be seen to be making a mockery of marriage. However the fact that I will be getting married in a church because I havent the heart to deny my future wife her dream wedding (she is also froma religious family) Makes a mockery from the religious point of view, How can I make vows before the eyes of someone I dont believe in?
timewarrior as i understand it, most of the vows you take ones such as, "to have and to hold till death do us part etc i think you should hold on to those thoughts and do the right thing, ok so you dont believe, as your partner does, but i think if your really in love with her and respect her wishes, you can comply with her request, the mockery part of my post was mostly about the rise in 'quicke' marriages and the general lack in the values of marrage, mostly by young people who seem to think a marrage will 'tie' a person down to them simply by using marriage as en excuse, a bit of security. not a well thought out issue.
Perhaps I am a worse person for not believing, I simply cant help that.
we all have a choice, and no one can change that until you do, trust me on that, i have had many chats about it (offline) and i still hold the same belief as you on religion,
I have no criminal convictions, I have a clean driving licence and the only time I was ever arrested was for drunk and incapable (detained for my own safety).
good for you, and on the drunken part, we all over indulge sometimes but you must not make it a regular occurence.
Surely its more important to make vows to one another than vows before god? It certainly is from my point of view.
thats a tricky one, the decision is yours but if it makes your partner happy to do it properly in a church, i would go along with it, sure it makes you look out of place, but atleast you can bring happiness to each other, instead of hurting your loved one, and causing an argument.
Being an absent father is also something that worries me, like it or not people pre-judge absent fathers. I did nothing wrong yet I lost my son. Society still, when I talk of my son, assumes I did somehting wrong and forced my ex partner to leave. I hold my head up and admit that I was careless when it came to sex, I paid for this in the most heart breaking way. My son now lives 250 miles away from me and I have seen him only a few times.
im not going to pretend, and pre judge as i dont know you (personally) but there are various reasons as to why there are absent fathers, yes it could be down to work, it could be down to another relationship, but only the parents who are in these situations 'should' know what they are doing to there children, sometimes you have to put yourself out for your children, and stop thinking about what YOUR doing at the time, because staying away from your family especially kids, is not helpful to the relationship and you must make time out, make allowances so that regrets dont sink in in the future, i know some of you may say 'yeh yeh he can say this he is young etc' but i truely believe in what i say in my life its based on thinking about what you do before you act, sometimes you dont think straight but nobody is perfect.
timewarrior2001
13-01-2004, 09:43
timewarrior as i understand it, most of the vows you take ones such as, "to have and to hold till death do us part etc i think you should hold on to those thoughts and do the right thing, ok so you dont believe, as your partner does, but i think if your really in love with her and respect her wishes, you can comply with her request, the mockery part of my post was mostly about the rise in 'quicke' marriages and the general lack in the values of marrage, mostly by young people who seem to think a marrage will 'tie' a person down to them simply by using marriage as en excuse, a bit of security. not a well thought out issue.
Excellently put Kronas, please dont think I am trying to argue, Its just me discussing issues and trying to move the thread in a logical direction. :)
im not going to pretend, and pre judge as i dont know you (personally) but there are various reasons as to why there are absent fathers, yes it could be down to work, it could be down to another relationship, but only the parents who are in these situations 'should' know what they are doing to there children, sometimes you have to put yourself out for your children, and stop thinking about what YOUR doing at the time, because staying away from your family especially kids, is not helpful to the relationship and you must make time out, make allowances so that regrets dont sink in in the future, i know some of you may say 'yeh yeh he can say this he is young etc' but i truely believe in what i say in my life its based on thinking about what you do before you act, sometimes you dont think straight but nobody is perfect.
Yeah I see where you are coming from, I did nothing wrong, my ex was homesick, decided to upsticks and leave me when she was 2 months pregnant. I dont think she did anything wrong to be honest, but it hurt, I cried, I contemplated suicide I didnt think the pain would ever end. It did, I am now thankfull I have a gorgeous son who is now 18 months old. Yes I get bitter sometimes, to be brutally honest I dont even want anything to do with my ex partner, but she is the mother of my child and I need to communicate with her and respect her.
My son and my ex partner are coming to stay next weekend with myself and my fiance, its a weird situation. This will be the first time Alex (my son) has visited the Area, he hasnt met either of his great grandmothers or many of his extended family. I will gladly go out of my way for my son, but I can also understand why some fathers do just walk, its easier, less painfull and sometimes a better solution.
paulyoung666
13-01-2004, 09:48
hope everything goes ok for you :)
Excellently put Kronas, please dont think I am trying to argue, Its just me discussing issues and trying to move the thread in a logical direction. :)
not at all, your input has been appreciated :)
Yeah I see where you are coming from, I did nothing wrong, my ex was homesick, decided to upsticks and leave me when she was 2 months pregnant. I dont think she did anything wrong to be honest, but it hurt, I cried, I contemplated suicide I didnt think the pain would ever end. It did, I am now thankfull I have a gorgeous son who is now 18 months old. Yes I get bitter sometimes, to be brutally honest I dont even want anything to do with my ex partner, but she is the mother of my child and I need to communicate with her and respect her.
My son and my ex partner are coming to stay next weekend with myself and my fiance, its a weird situation. This will be the first time Alex (my son) has visited the Area, he hasnt met either of his great grandmothers or many of his extended family. I will gladly go out of my way for my son, but I can also understand why some fathers do just walk, its easier, less painfull and sometimes a better solution.
its a strange situation to be in, but for the sake of your son, you must get along with your ex, it might be difficult it maybe hard but you have the responseability as a father to care for your son, you have to realise that he is a part of you, you might not have left each other(your ex) on good terms but you have a child who will love you in the future, but you must be there for him and care and nurture him as best you can, please dont take my words the wrong away as you may think im 'telling' you what to do, but this is how i feel. :)
Seems Kronas was right:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-974042,00.html
Seems Kronas was right:http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-974042,00.html
yes the figures show a more intimate insight, in to what levels of crime are on the up.
but I can also understand why some fathers do just walk, its easier, less painfull and sometimes a better solution.
But it has to be hard to do that,me I got all the kids,and would not have it any other way
Timewarrior I hope you have a great weekend,you can overcome lots with love,and the love you have for your son will get you through
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