Arithmetic

[Theodoric]

I went into Dixons last week to buy a couple of small items. Anyway, the tills were down so the young lad behind the counter had to use a pencil and paper and it soon became clear that he simply couldn't add two numbers together in his head. Now, 2 questions:

1) Is this typical of what schools are turning out nowadays? When I was a young lad (stop groaning at the back, please!) we could do arithmetic. We could do long division using pencil and paper. We could extract square roots using pencil and paper (OK, don't ask me to do it now). We could calculate the cost of 2yds 1ft 6in of cloth that cost £2/7/6 per yard. And this was at a bog-standard primary school.

2) Is the ability to do simple mental arithmetic important? I'd say it is. You can survive with poor spelling, but poor arithmetic can lead to serious errors. But we don't need mental arithmetic today, we've all got calculators, I hear you say. Really? Someone multiplies two 3 digit numbers together and gives you the answer. Does this answer sound right. I feel that I could tell if it sounds right or if it sounds completely wrong, but how many people under, say 40, could claim this nowadays?

[homealone]

I went into Dixons last week to buy a couple of small items. Anyway, the tills were down so the young lad behind the counter had to use a pencil and paper and it soon became clear that he simply couldn't add two numbers together in his head. Now, 2 questions:

1) Is this typical of what schools are turning out nowadays? When I was a young lad (stop groaning at the back, please!) we could do arithmetic. We could do long division using pencil and paper. We could extract square roots using pencil and paper (OK, don't ask me to do it now). We could calculate the cost of 2yds 1ft 6in of cloth that cost £2/7/6 per yard. And this was at a bog-standard primary school.

2) Is the ability to do simple mental arithmetic important? I'd say it is. You can survive with poor spelling, but poor arithmetic can lead to serious errors. But we don't need mental arithmetic today, we've all got calculators, I hear you say. Really? Someone multiplies two 3 digit numbers together and gives you the answer. Does this answer sound right. I feel that I could tell if it sounds right or if it sounds completely wrong, but how many people under, say 40, could claim this nowadays?

What amazes me was that we seemed to do so much better when we were used to using the Imperial system

e.g.
16oz to 1lb, 14 lb to 1 Stone
20fl oz to the pint, 2 pints to a quart, 8 pints to a gallon
12 pennies to a shilling, 20 shillings to a pound
12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 5280 feet to a mile etc

you'd have though adopting the decimal system would have made it easier, but the evidence doesn't seem to be there. Ok calculators have got people out of the habit, but the old 'learn by rote' methods of teaching seem to have been better?

[Julian]

It is the most basic things that have been left behind when it comes to education, exactly as described. :(

There is FAR too much time devoted to " P C " issues IMO. :rolleyes:

[Paul]

Well I can't comment on all schools but "maths" is certainly well taught at my kids school(s). My youngest daughter got a mention in her assembly the other week for correctly doubling a two digit numbers in her head (see was asked 27 + 27). Not bad for a six year old I thought. :)

[Graham]

Unfortunately too many "basic" skills, such as mental arithmetic (including the "times tables"), spelling, grammar and so on are being neglected in many schools these days :(

[Dave Stones]

i thought it was funny at a level when i and about 3 others in my maths class could do random addings up in our head faster than some people could on their adding machines.

at gcse i was consistently top of the class for my mental arithmetic, we had tests every week i got 80%more often than not where everyone else got something like 45%

guess i must be good at it...

[edit] oh and we learnt up to our 16x tables at primary school (year 4 :D:D)

</off ego trip>

as for long division, i cannot do that. i fail to see the point in it...

but surely if it was at dixons then there must have been a calculator or 2 lying around they could use? just knock it off the stock totals or sell it as a reconditioned one later :erm:

[Sociable]

What amazes me was that we seemed to do so much better when we were used to using the Imperial system

e.g.
16oz to 1lb, 14 lb to 1 Stone
20fl oz to the pint, 2 pints to a quart, 8 pints to a gallon
12 pennies to a shilling, 20 shillings to a pound
12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 5280 feet to a mile etc

you'd have though adopting the decimal system would have made it easier, but the evidence doesn't seem to be there. Ok calculators have got people out of the habit, but the old 'learn by rote' methods of teaching seem to have been better?

If something has been missing over recent years I think it is perhaps teachers who know how to teach kids to think rather than just be able to pass tests.

I also think the big difference working with the imperial system made was it required a degree of thought before and during any calculation. We learned how to think things through rather than just relying on calculators or computers.

It may take longer to get an answer but by going through the process you gain understanding as well as a result and that understanding is the part you can then apply to other situations.

[Florence]

I will not say where I work but itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s in a school. The education has been changed so much that the numeracy as its called now is on a time scale. If the child hasn't grasped the basic understanding then this child is left behind as there is no time to revisit the subject. They have recently started booster classes but the children then miss the subject that is in progress when they go for booster session.

The government puts funding in for help one year then come next September the funding is diverted somewhere else. This September we have gone from one classroom assistant per class and classes of less then 30 to one classroom assistant between two classes in classes above 30. The school had to reduce the teaching and classroom assistants due to the loss of funding. Bet Labour will not admit to this.

It's not always the school its the politics that are causing the problems and the children become pawns in the battle.

[Mal]

At my school, the maths teacher that I had actually "advised" us to use calculators, instead of using our heads.

[Ramrod]

I feel that I could tell if it sounds right or if it sounds completely wrong, but how many people under, say 40, could claim this nowadays?
OY! Make that under 36, pal! :D

[Ramrod]

At my school, the maths teacher that I had actually "advised" us to use calculators, instead of using our heads.Absolutely :disturbd:

[Ramrod]

Well I can't comment on all schools but "maths" is certainly well taught at my kids school(s). My youngest daughter got a mention in her assembly the other week for correctly doubling a two digit numbers in her head (see was asked 27 + 27). Not bad for a six year old I thought. :)
Thats great! You must be very proud :)
(as one parent of young children to another) :D

[Ramrod]

Unfortunately too many "basic" skills, such as mental arithmetic (including the "times tables"), spelling, grammar and so on are being neglected in many schools these days :(
....and now they're saying that they don't really need teachers either! :spin:

[Ramrod]

I will not say where I work but itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s in a school. The education has been changed so much that the numeracy as its called now is on a time scale. If the child hasn't grasped the basic understanding then this child is left behind as there is no time to revisit the subject. They have recently started booster classes but the children then miss the subject that is in progress when they go for booster session.

.Thats fu*king disgusting! I've got tears in my eyes atm
Those poor kids.
:mis:

[homealone]

If something has been missing over recent years I think it is perhaps teachers who know how to teach kids to think rather than just be able to pass tests.

I also think the big difference working with the imperial system made was it required a degree of thought before and during any calculation. We learned how to think things through rather than just relying on calculators or computers.

It may take longer to get an answer but by going through the process you gain understanding as well as a result and that understanding is the part you can then apply to other situations.

I think the teachers have been perhaps forced into it, somewhat. The obsession with SATS & performance monitoring has, in my opinion, detracted from the ethos of the teaching profession, teaching kids to think for themselves doesn't score high in the league tables.:( <-- not aimed at you btw:)

Good point about 'thinking it through', although I still feel my point about a decimal/SI based system being easier still applies? - but even then I have to admit that my understanding of that was helped by starting out using logarithms, rather than a calculator.

Your last point about gaining understanding is the key to it:tu:

Gaz

[Nor]

Adding 27+27 is arithmatic though not maths. Plus it makes sense to use a calculator in school rather than use your head as you are more likely to get it right.

The trouble is although arithmatic is no doubt taught with purpose in primary school its accepted as already taught in secondary and therefore there is no need to do it anyway, hence the calcs. It ends up with people becoming so rusty during secondary school that when they leave they may be able to do advanced trig but can't add 2 numbers. In the real world being able to do advanced trig will never be used, so you get rusty and forget it and you are already rusty at arithmatic and never pick it back up again.

[homealone]

I will not say where I work but itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s in a school. The education has been changed so much that the numeracy as its called now is on a time scale. If the child hasn't grasped the basic understanding then this child is left behind as there is no time to revisit the subject. They have recently started booster classes but the children then miss the subject that is in progress when they go for booster session.

The government puts funding in for help one year then come next September the funding is diverted somewhere else. This September we have gone from one classroom assistant per class and classes of less then 30 to one classroom assistant between two classes in classes above 30. The school had to reduce the teaching and classroom assistants due to the loss of funding. Bet Labour will not admit to this.

It's not always the school its the politics that are causing the problems and the children become pawns in the battle.

It does sound stupid that they have to miss out on a current lesson, to attend a booster? Trouble is, no doubt, money again - it would be great if stuff like booster classes could be done at Breakfast Clubs & After School Clubs, but not all Schools can afford to run these - let alone pay for the Teacher?

Gaz

[Florence]

It does sound stupid that they have to miss out on a current lesson, to attend a booster? Trouble is, no doubt, money again - it would be great if stuff like booster classes could be done at Breakfast Clubs & After School Clubs, but not all Schools can afford to run these - let alone pay for the Teacher?

Gaz
It would also be helpful; with such large classes to have one classroom assistant to each class then the assistant could sit with the children who are struggling. Instead ours only do literacy as that has priority over numberacy. what good is it being able to read the sums if you can't answer the problem.

[Nor]

Just read back what I wrote and I don't half come across as some know it all ******. Ignore what I wrote :)

[Paul]

Adding 27+27 is arithmatic though not maths.
We called it all maths at school, hence why I put it in quotes.



It would also be helpful; with such large classes to have one classroom assistant to each class then the assistant could sit with the children who are struggling. Instead ours only do literacy as that has priority over numberacy. what good is it being able to read the sums if you can't answer the problem.
.... or equally, what use is being able to do the sums if you can't read the problem ? Both are equally important.

[homealone]

Adding 27+27 is arithmatic though not maths. Plus it makes sense to use a calculator in school rather than use your head as you are more likely to get it right.

The trouble is although arithmatic is no doubt taught with purpose in primary school its accepted as already taught in secondary and therefore there is no need to do it anyway, hence the calcs. It ends up with people becoming so rusty during secondary school that when they leave they may be able to do advanced trig but can't add 2 numbers. In the real world being able to do advanced trig will never be used, so you get rusty and forget it and you are already rusty at arithmatic and never pick it back up again.

title of the thread says it for me:)

- you're right, we are straying a bit, but I still agree with Sociable that understanding should come first, the calculator just makes it easier to do - I still have to show people how to do percentages on calculators, for example ;)

Sorry, I can't agree arithmetic should't be taught at Primary School :)

[Nor]

What I meant was it should still be given importance at secondary. They seem to assume its already learned, therefore accept everyone can do it and don't practice it. I'd also rather they placed importance on doing it in your head rather than using calcs aswell, but they'd have to have exams which excluded using a calc to make that able to happen.

Sorry about the maths thing, was being a pedantic ******.

[Xaccers]

Definitely agree with the understanding bit.
If you can understand how the maths works, then you can solve any problem no matter how large.
I had teachers who were good and taught that.
Then I experienced some of Hampshire's school and they were pants.
Instead of teaching the kids how to solve problems in general, we were taught how to solve specific problems.
So if number 9 in the list of work was slightly different, everyone's hands went up.
It's the same with reading too, I was taught to break the word down and work through it (I could spell encyclopaedia when I was 7 back in the days when it was spelt with an "ae"), my gf's daughter (9) seems to have been taught "word shapes" so when she comes to a new word she's stuck and really makes a balls up of it, and then when reading normal text she'll mis-recognise the word shape and say the wrong one, like "the" instead of "this"
I don't know, maybe my friends and I, and you lot too were advanced for our ages (maybe that's why we've gravitated to computers and forums like this so we're not a fair sample of the population), but I get the distinct feeling that kids aren't being driven in lessons.

[Theodoric]

Adding 27+27 is arithmatic though not maths. Plus it makes sense to use a calculator in school rather than use your head as you are more likely to get it right.

Arithmetic is definitely part of mathematics, admittedly an extremely basic part; unless it's number theory, that is, in which case it's an extremely difficult part. However, I take your point, which is, I assume, that the general public seem to think that arithmetic and mathematics are interchangeable terms, which is why I was careful to entitle my thread arithmetic.

And a suitable, well-known quote from the German mathematician Kronecker, "God invented the integers, all else is the work of man."

[homealone]

What I meant was it should still be given importance at secondary. They seem to assume its already learned, therefore accept everyone can do it and don't practice it. I'd also rather they placed importance on doing it in your head rather than using calcs aswell, but they'd have to have exams which excluded using a calc to make that able to happen.

<snip>.

right - I agree they should never assume stuff is already learned - a basic 'refresher' at the start of Secondary, wouldn't do any harm. We had that at my 'secondary' - but that was back in 1964:p

Gaz

[Dave Stones]

I don't know, maybe my friends and I, and you lot too were advanced for our ages

:D:D

i was taught to say things phonetically (is that the right word? i cant remember :blush: ) as well. much better being told how something sounds and how groups of things sound . eg if we had a word that we found hard we said things how they sounded in capital letters, so cat would be KE AH TE. looks completely bizzare but im sure someone will know what i mean... :erm:

education nowadays is in pieces... </sweeping statement>

[Tricky]

How much is it that people become to depend upon objects (Computers, Tills, etc) doing things for you. I know I do especially spelling - It's a standing joke when I do presentations etc at work and I have to write on a flip chart (I actually carry a red pen just to underline words I know I cannot spell). Maths is the same, I know I can do them but would rather let technology do the work.

I had an example thread sometime ago about converting from Kilos to lbs and ounces, got the conversion right except forgot about doing the fraction of lbs back to ounces!!!

Give me IT anyday

[Xaccers]

:D:D

i was taught to say things phonetically (is that the right word? i cant remember :blush: ) as well. much better being told how something sounds and how groups of things sound . eg if we had a word that we found hard we said things how they sounded in capital letters, so cat would be KE AH TE. looks completely bizzare but im sure someone will know what i mean... :erm:

education nowadays is in pieces... </sweeping statement>

That's how I was taught, and it meant that I had no fear when I came to a new word.

I was reading dad's sci-fi hand me downs when I was 10 (and a little put out that my teacher said I had the reading age of a 16 year old!)

my gf's daughter still uses "baby letters", so instead of saying Ay she'll say Ah, Bee would be Buh etc

[homealone]

That's how I was taught, and it meant that I had no fear when I came to a new word.

I was reading dad's sci-fi hand me downs when I was 10 (and a little put out that my teacher said I had the reading age of a 16 year old!)

my gf's daughter still uses "baby letters", so instead of saying Ay she'll say Ah, Bee would be Buh etc

I remember being the only 'infant' allowed to use the 'junior' library cupboard - at the time it meant I got to read a lot of Thomas the Tank Engine - those originals (1959) must be worth something now, they were somewhere in Cyprus:)

Gaz

[danielf]

I occasionally confuse checkout staff with my desire to get rid of the loose coins in my pocket. Say the bill for a few items of shopping is 4.87, and I have a fiver plus 37p (in 10s 2s and 1s), I will give that and ask for a 50p coin back. Quite often, I have to explain that the difference between 5.37 and 4.87 is exactly 50p. Now, I will admit this is not the easiest sum, but I am surprised at the difficulty some people appear to have with it.

Mind you, I wouldn't have a clue how to extract square roots using pencil and paper (as the OP stated), and the last time I tried long division I didn't quite know where to start as I hadn't done one for 25 years or so.

[Bifta]

School's suck .. well, mine did. Back in 1984 when home computers were becoming more and more popular me and several other pupils chose 'Computer Studies" as one of our 'options', unfortunately despite us knowing a multitude of people who had chosen this subject they cancelled it due to "lack of interest" and I had to take up Religious Education instead ... man do I feel cheated.

[Paul]

I did Computer Studies (in 1977 - 79). :D

[Bifta]

It's not all bad, having looked recently at the course papers for old computer studies classes I never actually missed anything useful.

[Jerrek]

1) Is this typical of what schools are turning out nowadays? When I was a young lad (stop groaning at the back, please!) we could do arithmetic. We could do long division using pencil and paper. We could extract square roots using pencil and paper (OK, don't ask me to do it now). We could calculate the cost of 2yds 1ft 6in of cloth that cost £2/7/6 per yard. And this was at a bog-standard primary school.
I have no idea about Britian, but it wouldn't surprise me if that is typical in Canada of non-university stream students. It is a bloody awful shame, but the truth.

2) Is the ability to do simple mental arithmetic important? I'd say it is. You can survive with poor spelling, but poor arithmetic can lead to serious errors. But we don't need mental arithmetic today, we've all got calculators, I hear you say. Really? Someone multiplies two 3 digit numbers together and gives you the answer. Does this answer sound right. I feel that I could tell if it sounds right or if it sounds completely wrong, but how many people under, say 40, could claim this nowadays?
Absolutely. I can do all four arithmetic operations in my head. I can multiply two three-digit numbers in under 25 seconds. I can do long division in my heard. I can add a list of numbers on paper, if they are written in vertical fashion, adding two columns at a time per pass. I can subtract the same way. I can do square roots of numbers under 10,000 or so in my heard with reasonable accuracy, and I can do modular algebra with some thinking. I am mathematically inclined though (and I'm studying math in university), and don't expect everyone to do that kind of math in their head. However, all arithmetic should be done on paper in speedy time, by most people.

At my school, the maths teacher that I had actually "advised" us to use calculators, instead of using our heads.
The only classes we were allowed to use calculators were the science classes. Math class was for math, and we had to do algebra in our head. When it comes to trig and logs though, using calculators are permissible.