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MovedGoalPosts
29-07-2006, 15:43
Twickenham Council have decided in their wisdom that I've driven too far in a bus lane. :mad: They want to fine me £100.00 :cry:

Yes I entered the bus lane, but their own cameras show that within 30 seconds my car was parked in a designated bay which was only accessible by going through the bus lane.

From the photos the council have provided I have driven no more than 6 car lengths from the point that the car tyre first crossed into the bus lane, to the point of the bay that I used. There were no busses to be seen, whilst the traffic lane was at a vitual standstill.

I'm looking for specific information for a robust defence. The specific issues based on the councils' own reply is "vehcles ... are only permitted to enter the bus lane near to the intended location (parking bay) in whcih the motorist proposed to use. I've highlighted what appears to me to be the critical word.

There are two specific questions:
a) What legislation is used to define and thus enforce bus lanes
b) What is the definition of "near", in a legal sense as far as bus lanes go.

I've done an initial :google: but can't find anything other than how to appeal.

Thanks in advance.

SnoopZ
29-07-2006, 15:54
Sounds like a job for Mr Angry. :D

MovedGoalPosts
29-07-2006, 15:59
Mr Angry, meet Mr Livid :(

SnoopZ
29-07-2006, 16:04
I might be in completely the wrong area but does any of THIS (http://www.richmond.gov.uk/home/transport_and_streets/motor_vehicles_roads_and_parking/parking/parking_contact_details.htm#appealing_against_pcns ) help?

[edit]

Sorry i thought you were looking how to appeal.

On a more positive note more than half of people who do appeal for parking fines win them in Twickenham.

UncleBooBoo
29-07-2006, 16:04
I hate people who use bus lanes to park in or to try and beat the traffic jams!

Get loads of them here in swansea!

They should be given points as well as a fine if you ask me....

Kliro
29-07-2006, 16:11
I hate people who use bus lanes to park in or to try and beat the traffic jams!

Get loads of them here in swansea!

They should be given points as well as a fine if you ask me....


Annnnd the most useful comment award goes to........



The sucess rate of appeals is pretty high I've heard, so maybe just appealing stating that crossing the bus lane is the only way of accessing that space etc. I'd say you'd get off for.

Good luck anyways.

iain_herts
29-07-2006, 16:17
sorry i cant help u rob but i got a parking ticket the other day stopped unloaded my van and park further down the road. finished doing what i was doing drove back had to park on a yellow line went to get my triple section ladder came back and some parking warden takeing photos of my van and a parking ticket on the windscreen and i work for bloody SKY.

oh and WE have to pay it and also we get charge a £15 admin fee by SKY even if we go and pay it wen we get it

gooner4life
29-07-2006, 17:00
sorry i cant help u rob but i got a parking ticket the other day stopped unloaded my van and park further down the road. finished doing what i was doing drove back had to park on a yellow line went to get my triple section ladder came back and some parking warden takeing photos of my van and a parking ticket on the windscreen and i work for bloody SKY.

oh and WE have to pay it and also we get charge a £15 admin fee by SKY even if we go and pay it wen we get it

Why would working for "bloody sky" stop a traffic warden giving you a parking ticket for parking on a yellow line? as for the admin fee by Sky if you pay it immediately you should argue there is no admin for them to charge you for, and £15 is unreasonable anyway.

MovedGoalPosts
29-07-2006, 17:55
I hate people who use bus lanes to park in or to try and beat the traffic jams!

Get loads of them here in swansea!

They should be given points as well as a fine if you ask me....

but where does it say I parked in a bus lane? I had to drive through it to get to the parking space, which is on the inside of the bus lane. Note the council is not disputing that I was parking legally, just that I'm not allowed to get to the parking space :(

---------- Post added at 16:55 ---------- Previous post was at 16:53 ----------

oh and WE have to pay it and also we get charge a £15
admin fee by SKY even if we go and pay it wen we get it

That admin fee strikes me as a bit steep, rather like the bank charges type threads we've got running, is it the real cost to Sky?

But you have my sympathy. It's no fun carrying a load of kit, even portable ladders for a couple of streets.

bob_a_builder
29-07-2006, 18:01
oh and WE have to pay it and also we get charge a £15 admin fee by SKY even if we go and pay it wen we get it

Same for most, if not all company car drivers - otherwise youi've got immunity and carte blanch to park anywhere, just like those diplomatic cars in london - most of which don't won't pay any such fine/Ccharge

Like the idea that working for 'Sky' should give some kind of immunity - is this a closer to god kind of thing

---------- Post added at 17:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:00 ----------

I had to drive through it to get to the parking space, which is on the inside of the bus lane.
Write and tell 'em your 'teleporter' was broken

Chimaera
29-07-2006, 18:11
Write and ask them how they would expect a motorist to enter that car parking space without crossing into the bus lane? And a letter to the local rag would probably be helpful, if they are anything like our local paper, they hate the local council! :D
Good luck!

UncleBooBoo
29-07-2006, 18:33
My post was a general comment with regards to bus lanes and not aimed at you rob c!

Paul K
29-07-2006, 18:55
Why not ask the council involved to provide you with a printed copy of the legislation that you are accused of breaching and then ask them to fully expand on how you breached it? If they refuse to do so then the CAB would be my next port of call ;)

Dan_Sette
29-07-2006, 19:04
It will all hinge on "near".

The council, of course, will let you cross the bus lane to get to the space. There arguement will be that you should pull up to the area adjacent to the space, indicate and then pull into it. As you would if you were pulling into an off-road driveway protected by no bus lane.

If you use the logic "I only was in it for six car lengths" then applying the same logic you would have to drive across a substantial amount of pavement and / or your neighbours gardens to get to the same off road driveway.

And 30 seconds, at 30mph, is a quarter of a mile.....substantially more than six car lengths.

D

scrotnig
29-07-2006, 19:10
Tell them to screw it and to do their worst but that you will not pay them even one penny.

Legalised demanding money with menaces it is.

Insist on a court hearing.

Maggy
29-07-2006, 19:31
I would be interested if there is anything mentioned in the highway code on how to and when to cross bus lanes?Because if there are no clues or indications anywhere that one can learn how to do this.After all I cannot recall ever having to learn the correct maneuver for that situation. :erm:

MovedGoalPosts
29-07-2006, 20:37
I would be interested if there is anything mentioned in the highway code on how to and when to cross bus lanes?Because if there are no clues or indications anywhere that one can learn how to do this.After all I cannot recall ever having to learn the correct maneuver for that situation. :erm:

Interesting. I can find nothing in the Highway Code that covers this, only that you have to be careful when crossing a bus lane.

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

Tell them to screw it and to do their worst but that you will not pay them even one penny.

Legalised demanding money with menaces it is.

Insist on a court hearing.

That way you just get the bailiffs at your door one day, and that is demanding money with menances :mad:

There is no court for parking, some government quango you appeal to if the council don't rollover quietly. That's what they are wanting me to do here 'cos if I pay up now it costs £50.00, but if I go to appeal it will cots the full ticket price £100, plus all my time and effort fighting it :(

---------- Post added at 19:37 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

It will all hinge on "near".

The council, of course, will let you cross the bus lane to get to the space. There arguement will be that you should pull up to the area adjacent to the space, indicate and then pull into it. As you would if you were pulling into an off-road driveway protected by no bus lane.

If you use the logic "I only was in it for six car lengths" then applying the same logic you would have to drive across a substantial amount of pavement and / or your neighbours gardens to get to the same off road driveway.

And 30 seconds, at 30mph, is a quarter of a mile.....substantially more than six car lengths.

D

Ah so check the braking distances from the Highway Code at 30 mph stopping distance is 23m or 6 car lengths ;) So of course a driver is not allowed to be clear of the main carriageway but must obstruct that to do all speed adjustment before entering the parking space?

The photos supplied by the council show it is 6 car lengths I've travelled , and conveniently for the council they show 3 photos of my car as I start to enter and over the next 4 seconds. The final photo 25 seconds later is of my parked car. Nothing in between so what was I doing, during that lost time??? Parking up I'd suggest.

Dan_Sette
29-07-2006, 21:29
Ah so check the braking distances from the Highway Code at 30 mph stopping distance is 23m or 6 car lengths ;) So of course a driver is not allowed to be clear of the main carriageway but must obstruct that to do all speed adjustment before entering the parking space?

The photos supplied by the council show it is 6 car lengths I've travelled , and conveniently for the council they show 3 photos of my car as I start to enter and over the next 4 seconds. The final photo 25 seconds later is of my parked car. Nothing in between so what was I doing, during that lost time??? Parking up I'd suggest.

I agree. I was not trying to be difficult. Just trying to move the debate forward to be helpful to you.

Your appeal, and the councils defence, will be as to the definition of "near".

Looking at it totally objectively, the adjudicator will decide on whether it is reasonable for you to use the bus lane for slowing down and making the manouever, or whether it should have been done on the carriageway that the cars, etc, use.

I used the pavement example to clarify (or not as it appears :)) the example.

The council, I expect, will say that the bus lane is reserved, and any braking should be done on the non bus lane carriageway. In the same way as you would not drive on the pavement to slow down to avoid disrupting other traffic.

As with all these things it will depend on the opinion of the adjudicator on the day.

The fact is, the council will rely on people going for the easier, cheaper option and paying up, just to make the problem go away.

I hope you do decide to fight it, and equally hope you win. As it is things like this that set precedents and increased clarity for future...er..."trangressors"

D

me283
29-07-2006, 22:33
I'm joining this one a little late, but would like to add my two penn'orth.

What you can do is write back, contesting the matter. Firstly, challenge them under the law itself, asking what right they have to impose the fine. You should quote the Bill of Rights 1689, which states (more or less) that "fines and forfeits before conviction are unlawful". Now, the council are not judge and jury, so they cannot just issue fines willy-nilly. They may quote the Road Traffic Act, but there is a get-out for that as well. I'll need to check my details, but let me know if you are interested in it.

I don't know if this has been posted already, but if you want more info, I have a stack of it. I've fought a few such cases, and had a few successes.

MovedGoalPosts
30-07-2006, 00:24
I'm joining this one a little late, but would like to add my two penn'orth.

What you can do is write back, contesting the matter. Firstly, challenge them under the law itself, asking what right they have to impose the fine. You should quote the Bill of Rights 1689, which states (more or less) that "fines and forfeits before conviction are unlawful". Now, the council are not judge and jury, so they cannot just issue fines willy-nilly. They may quote the Road Traffic Act, but there is a get-out for that as well. I'll need to check my details, but let me know if you are interested in it.

I don't know if this has been posted already, but if you want more info, I have a stack of it. I've fought a few such cases, and had a few successes.

Interesting. I'll have to look at that Bill of Rights thing. I'll certainly be contesting this further, just need to gain a few more facts to make it very clear to the council that they are wrong. The RTA stuff here is the key and I'll have to find out exactly what part of the legislation was used to create the Bus Lane, and parking spaces, and thus what precedents might exist.

Anything you could provide to point me in the right direction would be appreciated.

nffc
30-07-2006, 00:29
sorry i cant help u rob but i got a parking ticket the other day stopped unloaded my van and park further down the road. finished doing what i was doing drove back had to park on a yellow line went to get my triple section ladder came back and some parking warden takeing photos of my van and a parking ticket on the windscreen and i work for bloody SKY.

oh and WE have to pay it and also we get charge a £15 admin fee by SKY even if we go and pay it wen we get it
I saw a UPS van parked in the centre of Chavvingham the other day with a parking ticket on it... lol

me283
30-07-2006, 10:33
Interesting. I'll have to look at that Bill of Rights thing. I'll certainly be contesting this further, just need to gain a few more facts to make it very clear to the council that they are wrong. The RTA stuff here is the key and I'll have to find out exactly what part of the legislation was used to create the Bus Lane, and parking spaces, and thus what precedents might exist.

Anything you could provide to point me in the right direction would be appreciated.

OK, from memory (bearing in mind I had a late night!), the RTA would normally supercede the Bill of Rights, however there was a legal precedent in the "Metric Martyrs" case, where Lord Justice Laws stated that certain acts held a higher status... the Bill of Rights was one of those mentioned.

I actually used this tactic against the nasty boys at Westminster City Council for a ludicrous parking ticket; strangely they seem to have dropped the matter! I haven't though, and I'm now pursuing them for wasting my time!

There is another angle you could use, depending on who issued the ticket. Many councils took over issuing their own tickets, and were only allowed to do so if they follow strict guidelines laid down about wording etc. This is certainly the case with parking tickets. It may be worth looking into? IIRC, several councils were found to be issuing tickets which were not legally enforcable.

As with many of these things, it's a question of how far you're willing to push it. Me? I'm a cantankerous s*d who loves an argument with officialdom!

Best of luck anyway.

MovedGoalPosts
30-07-2006, 11:58
The ticket itself is actually a letter because it's some CCTV operator has picked it up. These CCTV systems were there to improve safety on streets I thought, not for minor traffic offences, another avenue to check out. So I'd expect it's properly worded, but again I'll try and look at that.

It's taken them nearly 2 months to look at the original letter disputing the ticket, I wonder if that could be considered reasonable, causing me unecessary stress and worry?

And it's got me wound up enough, particulalry given the photo evidence copies that they've produced, that I'll be pursuing them for everythig I can. Only trouble seems to be, from what I've seen in the appeal proceedures, very little facility to legaly recover costs from them.

me283
30-07-2006, 12:03
The ticket itself is actually a letter because it's some CCTV operator has picked it up. These CCTV systems were there to improve safety on streets I thought, not for minor traffic offences, another avenue to check out. So I'd expect it's properly worded, but again I'll try and look at that.

It's taken them nearly 2 months to look at the original letter disputing the ticket, I wonder if that could be considered reasonable, causing me unecessary stress and worry?

And it's got me wound up enough, particulalry given the photo evidence copies that they've produced, that I'll be pursuing them for everythig I can. Only trouble seems to be, from what I've seen in the appeal proceedures, very little facility to legaly recover costs from them.

The way I approached this with Westminster was to write to them, challenging the ticket; I also offered them the chance to withdra it, saying that if I had to spend more time on it, and it was eventually dropped, I would charge them for my time. If need be, I would sue them, as they had caused me unnecessary effort, knowing it would cost them.

I always find it's best to challenge these things head on.

Also, it's not necessarily the case that the "ticket" is legally worded. I will endeavour to look up that particular loophole for you.

greencreeper
30-07-2006, 12:16
Near me there's a dual carriageway that leads into Leeds centre. On the left is a bus lane - solid white line. Trouble is, the turning for where I live means crossing the bus lane at a set of lights. There is a break in the white line where you can cross. Do you wait in queuing traffic until you reach the break in the line, or do you drive up the empty bus lane so you can turn left for my area? Logic would say that you drive up the bus lane. The law would say you don't. Therein is the problem - the law's written by people who don't have to drive themselves. Probably because they're banned. No one in their right mind would sit in traffic for 10-15 minutes until the break in the white line is reached, and you're not abusing the bus lane to get ahead of the traffic - you're going in a different direction. The law huh :rolleyes:

MovedGoalPosts
30-07-2006, 12:28
Yep the law is quite clear on that turning left bit and the break in the line. That's in the highway code and stuff. What it's not clear on is the crossing into the bus lane to park, and the distances allowed to travel to do that. Inevitably with a space alongside the road, you drive alongside the space to align the vehicle for easy entry whether driving forwards or back.

me283
30-07-2006, 12:53
Yep the law is quite clear on that turning left bit and the break in the line. That's in the highway code and stuff. What it's not clear on is the crossing into the bus lane to park, and the distances allowed to travel to do that. Inevitably with a space alongside the road, you drive alongside the space to align the vehicle for easy entry whether driving forwards or back.

To my mind there are two issues here. Firstly the alleged offence - possibly you committed it, possibly not. However, the isecond ssue to deal with is the ticket. That in itself illustrates the presumption of guilt, and should IMO be challenged. Remember, you are technically innocent until proven guilt. Your guilt is not for the council to decide, but by issuing the ticket they have done exactly that.

rockin_plumber
31-07-2006, 21:05
From the photos the council have provided I have driven no more than 6 car lengths from the point that the car tyre first crossed into the bus lane, to the point of the bay that I used. There were no busses to be seen, whilst the traffic lane was at a vitual standstill.



Lets look at this another way..........

What If....

Somebody was waiting in that queue of traffic 1 or 2 cars in front of you, but decided to leave it till the last minute to park in that space..... but you stole it off them.

:erm: I didnt help much did I

MovedGoalPosts
31-07-2006, 21:15
:erm: I didnt help much did I

Who needs enemies :p:

Angua
31-07-2006, 21:21
Was the traffic on the main highway moving at a reasonable pace? If so surely it would be safer for you to pull into the bus lane to turn into the parking spot when you did. If the traffic was not moving then this argument goes out the window so to speak.

BTW Councils love vague and ambiguous wording, gives them the scope to suit the circumstances.

timewarrior2001
31-07-2006, 21:52
my uncles a farmer if you want a tractor a muck spreader and a few ton of ****.

I'd challenge it, and issue a notice of intention to sue the council for obstructing a legal parking space with a bus lane.

SnoopZ
31-07-2006, 21:53
my uncles a farmer if you want a tractor and a few ton of ****.

I'd challenge it, and issue a notice of intention to sue the council for obstructing a legal parking space with a bus lane.

I'll bring the camera. :D

MovedGoalPosts
05-08-2006, 12:56
Hooray, I today, got a letter from the Richmond that they have cancelled the ticket :tu:

I went to the council's offices and viewed the CCTV tape. It was clear that within 8 seconds of my entering the bus lane, I was completing the parking manoeuvre. The space I used was 6 car lengths from my point of entry into the bus lane, which by the time I carried out a forward / reverse manoeuvre I had travelled 7 car lengths. Oddly enough as evidence the council had tried to show three stills of my in the bus lane, and one from some 30 seconds after entering, where I was parked up. Hardly playing fair :(. However the enforcement officer, having watched the tape with me was quite happy that I was behaving reasonably, and used his common sense to cancel the ticket.

Unfortunately, there appears to be no clear guidance as to how far you can travel, point of entry, etc, in a bus lane if you want to park. Turning left into a side road is clear - there are the dashed lines showing where you can cross. Parking appears to be a free for all.

jellybaby
05-08-2006, 13:06
congratulations :)

Druchii
05-08-2006, 13:08
Good news :) And with there being no cleare guidelines people could obviously try and use bus lanes to park up from miles away... They need to re-think this obviously ;)

Glad you got it cancelled, and that they had the common sense to.

me283
05-08-2006, 13:54
Well done Rob.

I had a bit of a result too this week. I've been challenging a ridiculous ticket that Westminster Council gave me; I decided to go in heavy, and had a letter this week saying that not only have they cancelled the ticket, but we are settling on £30 compensation. Result!!

Like I always say, if you think these things are unfair, you should always challenge them. And be prepared to fight as dirty as the Council do.

Dan_Sette
05-08-2006, 14:39
Nice one, Rob. Glad you won. The adjudicators are reasonable and fair. This one certainly saw through a dirty trick.

Soooooo no fine then....beers on you? :)

D

MovedGoalPosts
05-08-2006, 18:24
Never got as far as adjudication. The council's own officers saw sense.

No beers though - don't drink and drive :D