View Full Version : Urgent Scam Alert [Admin: UNTRUE]
Post deleted because I just cant be arsed anymore....
I have more important things to do with my time than to be critisised for giving free advice...
Goodbye...
Stuart W
04-12-2003, 12:34
I don't have a dial-up modem connected ;)
Besides, the logging you have recomended will only log your PC dialing.... I can't see any provider accepting that as evidence of anything.
Surely if you were trying to 'scam' them, you would just delete the offending numbers from the log and sand it anyway?
zoombini
04-12-2003, 12:36
Or is this yet another scam about a scam?
Sociable
04-12-2003, 12:37
One solution that is sure to work is applying a call bar on all premium numbers as that would cover all the various possibilities.
I don't have a dial-up modem connected ;)
Besides, the logging you have recomended will only log your PC dialing.... I can't see any provider accepting that as evidence of anything.
Surely if you were trying to 'scam' them, you would just delete the offending numbers from the log and sand it anyway?
Dont be so biggoted... Other people on this forum have dial up or is there just you here ..............
And Actually it will help because you can PROVE you did or DIDNT make the call by logging the Dial ups... in a court of law that would stand because the electronic loggin is done by the computer not you..
Think about it... or was that so hard?
Scam about another scam...?
have you actually read it and looked at the links?
Am I selling you anything ?
Free advice D*ckwad...
It really ****es me of when you try to give advice an all people can do is critisise...
****ing **obheads....
I don't have a dial-up modem connected ;)
Besides, the logging you have recomended will only log your PC dialing.... I can't see any provider accepting that as evidence of anything.
Surely if you were trying to 'scam' them, you would just delete the offending numbers from the log and sand it anyway?
Surely if one had a brain they would actually think about how call logging works.
Surely if you were trying to 'scam' them, you would just delete the offending numbers from the log and sand it anyway?
Surley if someone was making Phantom calls from your OUTSIDE telephone line then any claim by the telephone company that your DIALLER (MODEM) made the call could be thrown out in court if you prove you have a CALL LOG from you modem..
Are you say there person OUTSIDE your house tampering with the green boxes is going to come inside your house and try and delete your MODEM.txt file?
Okay so if a program like an adult dialler program is downloaded onto your machine YES it can be sanded BUT at least you KNOW then that you have untintentionally made the calls through the scamming adult dialler rather than someone outside the house phreaking the telephone line....
Why dismiss such a simple idea that can advance any investigation into why you phone bills might be so high with 0907 dialed numbers?
Post deleted because I just cant be arsed anymore....
I have more important things to do with my time than to be critisised for giving free advice...
Goodbye...
What the merry wotsit is this supposed to mean? Is there 'history' between you and Stuart W? I just can't see how, on the strength of his post in this thread, you have taken such tremendous exception.
All he appears to have done is to disagree with whatever it was you said, and as far as I'm aware, free exchange of views is what we're all here for. :confused:
agarrick
04-12-2003, 13:13
Scam about another scam...?
have you actually read it and looked at the links?
Am I selling you anything ?
Free advice D*ckwad...
It really ****es me of when you try to give advice an all people can do is critisise...
****ing **obheads....
wow! thats alot of negative waves dude!
:shocking:
Sorry,
Ive calmed down now.....
Ive just had an accident banged my foot before posting and these chaps are getting the brunt of my anger please forgive me.....
Sorry again...........
Stuart W
04-12-2003, 13:19
OK, my first post was taken the wrong way... I'll try to be a bit more clear.
Your modem log is worth less than the paper you print it on in court.
It is a frikkin TEXT file which can be edited.
SCENARIO 1:
I am a legitemate user, not persuing ANY premium rate stuff.
I keep my modem log of ALL numbers dialed.
I get a bill for loads more than expected and it shows a premium rate numebr which ISN'T on my modem log.
I send my modem log in.
SCENARIO 2
I am a crooked devious customer who wants to use premium rate numebrs without paying for them.
I keep my modem log and look through it for the premium numbers and just delete them.
I send my "edited" modem log in.
Get it?
The modem log is a TEXT FILE which can be EDITED.
What provider in their right mind would take this text document as evidence of *ANYTHING*?
Obviously I am NOT saying that some guy will hack the green box, then gain access to my PC to tamper with my modem log, I am saying that unsavoury types may take advantage of ntl's naievety if ntl accept text files as gospel.
Touchy tiptoes...
Perhaps some will understand the nickname now...
Stuart W
04-12-2003, 13:24
Surley if someone was making Phantom calls from your OUTSIDE telephone line then any claim by the telephone company that your DIALLER (MODEM) made the call could be thrown out in court if you prove you have a CALL LOG from you modem..
Are you say there person OUTSIDE your house tampering with the green boxes is going to come inside your house and try and delete your MODEM.txt file?
Okay so if a program like an adult dialler program is downloaded onto your machine YES it can be sanded BUT at least you KNOW then that you have untintentionally made the calls through the scamming adult dialler rather than someone outside the house phreaking the telephone line....
Why dismiss such a simple idea that can advance any investigation into why you phone bills might be so high with 0907 dialed numbers?
Someone making calls from my line OUTSIDE my house would surely dial VOICE numbers?
The PC will only log numbers dialed by it's modem, which (presumably) would all be DATA calls?
What I am trying to say is you having a log of numbers legitimatley dialed by your PC is *NOT* evidence of *ANYTHING*.
I can see that it would be usefull if you are trying to find out if your computer has software installed to change ISP dial-up number,
but, in all honesty, you only have to listen to the number being dialed to know that it has changed.
I very rarely use my dial-up account, but when I do, I recognise the numbers dialed just by hearing them.
I have been at peoples houses and heard their dial up and can instantly say "NTL" or "NON-NTL" just by hearing it.
OK, my first post was taken the wrong way... I'll try to be a bit more clear.
Your modem log is worth less than the paper you print it on in court.
It is a frikkin TEXT file which can be edited.
SCENARIO 1:
I am a legitemate user, not persuing ANY premium rate stuff.
I keep my modem log of ALL numbers dialed.
I get a bill for loads more than expected and it shows a premium rate numebr which ISN'T on my modem log.
I send my modem log in.
SCENARIO 2
I am a crooked devious customer who wants to use premium rate numebrs without paying for them.
I keep my modem log and look through it for the premium numbers and just delete them.
I send my "edited" modem log in.
Get it?
The modem log is a TEXT FILE which can be EDITED.
What provider in their right mind would take this text document as evidence of *ANYTHING*?
Obviously I am NOT saying that some guy will hack the green box, then gain access to my PC to tamper with my modem log, I am saying that unsavoury types may take advantage of ntl's naievety if ntl accept text files as gospel.
Good point......
but presumably there would be other supporting evidence that the inncoent can use to prove they werent using the net at the particular time the modem allegedly dialled IE temp internet Files /History/ email logs etc etc
ISP logs as well could be used...
Someone making calls from my line OUTSIDE my house would surely dial VOICE numbers?
The PC will only log numbers dialed by it's modem, which (presumably) would all be DATA calls?
What I am trying to say is you having a log of numbers legitimatley dialed by your PC is *NOT* evidence of *ANYTHING*.
I can see that it would be usefull if you are trying to find out if your computer has software installed to change ISP dial-up number, but, in all honesty, you only have to listen to the number being dialed to know that it has changed.
I very rarely use my dial-up account, but when I do, I recognise the numbers dialed just by hearing them.
I have been at peoples houses and heard their dial up and can instantly say "NTL" or "NON-NTL" just by hearing it.
Not everyone is as savvy as you appear to be though.............
Im talking about peeps whos may have been conned or those whoes sons or daughters may had Porn diallers downloaded without the parents knowin...
You really are talking this from your point of view only... and not considering the abilities those who have been and will be conned a text file edited or not may help establish a misdemeaner
Those who want to scam the system will but those who are innocent and want to prove they didnt dial that particular number this may help towards that.
Hmmm, from what I remember of the first post ... :D
The issue was the 'tampering' of the green box. Surely this could be proven by the engineers themselves, especially if it affected a number of residents.
Sociable
04-12-2003, 13:58
Whole point is though that the original post in this thread was simply a friendly heads up to everyone that "Phantom" calls can and do take place.
I would have been a tad miffed myself had someone taken such a heads up as a time to imply this was designed to help people abuse a legitimate way of defending oneself should they find themselves at the wrong end of such a scam.
BTW As it happens txt files are acepted by the courts, even as evidence in criminal trials. Yes they can be edited but it is also possible, if challenged, to establish the history of the file on the PC should it ever get called into question.
I know this for a fact as I personally used a txt file when giving evidence in a trial last year resulting in someone being found guility of a serrious sexual assault.
I had to give additonal evidence on the date and time the file was created but the court was happy to accept it was possible to establish its credibility as evidence.
Stuart W
04-12-2003, 14:21
Not everyone is as savvy as you appear to be though.............
Im talking about peeps whos may have been conned or those whoes sons or daughters may had Porn diallers downloaded without the parents knowin...
You really are talking this from your point of view only... and not considering the abilities those who have been and will be conned a text file edited or not may help establish a misdemeaner
Those who want to scam the system will but those who are innocent and want to prove they didnt dial that particular number this may help towards that.
I have edited the post you quoted and highlighted the bleedin obvious :Angel:
[Edit] Removing double post and adding it here....
<snip!>
BTW As it happens txt files are acepted by the courts, even as evidence in criminal trials. Yes they can be edited but it is also possible, if challenged, to establish the history of the file on the PC should it ever get called into question.
I know this for a fact as I personally used a txt file when giving evidence in a trial last year resulting in someone being found guility of a serrious sexual assault.
I had to give additonal evidence on the date and time the file was created but the court was happy to accept it was possible to establish its credibility as evidence.
I am trully SHOCKED at this.
It is realy not hard at all to falsify the edit times of a text document and any self respecting IT department of any court realy should know this.
By default, a text document (like most other files on your PC) will have 3 dates on it.
1:Creation - When it was made.
2:Edit - When it was last changed.
3:Access - When it was last accessed.
All these dates can be changed easily (if you know how) but more importantly, the last 2 dates will change frequently enough to hide any naughty editing.
There is no list of edit dates and times, just the last edit, so provided mr naughty uses his modem after editing the file, no proof will exist.
I must admit I find it very hard to believe a court would act on evidence as flimsy as a text file!
Sociable
04-12-2003, 14:51
I must admit I find it very hard to believe a court would act on evidence as flimsy as a text file!
As always it is up to the jury to decide on the credibility of any evidence and in this particular case I actually pointed out to the court that yes it was possible to "Fake" any file but that forensic examination of the HD could in many cases expose such a fake.
I'm not suggesting this guy got sent down solely because of the txt file but simply that its existance provided evidence of the credibility of the victims statement that she had sent messages to me at a specific time and date confirming key details of the attack.
A log file from a PC could therefore also add weight to a claim that a call to a specific number had not been made from the PC.
Here is a scenario for you involving external tampering with the green box.
The number called is an on-line sexsite.
This has been iniated from the green box not the PC.
The call can be proven not to be a "Voice" line so on a balance of probability it would only have been made in two circumstances.
1. The call was made from the PC to access the sex site in which case the log would normally show this call.
2. The call was iniated by someone else wanting to benefit from the revenue generated by the call.
A jury would consider not just the log but the credibility of the person making the claim that the log was accurate. A question they might pose is, "would someone create a "fake" file simply to avoid paying a £30 call charge and then run the risk of getting found out in court and be guilty of perjury".
The above is a possible scenario following the "Scam" referred to in the reports on the Register, whereby some criminals have generated calls to numbers they own by tapping into the phone lines.
Hope that clarifies.
SMHarman
04-12-2003, 16:59
Good point......
<snip>
ISP logs as well could be used...
Except you've just dialed another ISP, not NTL
I'm sure this would make sense if I knew what the original post was :confused:
I'm sure this would make sense if I knew what the original post was :confused:
Why not just invent a first post in your head, your reply to it can't be any more surreal than the rest of this thread :spin:
Sociable
04-12-2003, 23:45
I'm sure this would make sense if I knew what the original post was :confused:
Was a heads up about a "Scam" involving "Phantom" calls appearing on peoples telephone bills.
The original post included a ref to making use of windows logs to establish that the calls had not been made.
Hope that helps.
Here is a link to info that led to that original post:
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/t/89878/ds.html
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