View Full Version : UDP not working, NTL tech support lies.
ok, so on Wedsday evening, at about 21:00 I noticed that the listen game server I was running for a few of my mates wasn't working, they couldn't connect to it. On further investigation it appeared that DNS also went down.
I rang the tech support number (around 22:00) and they said they've been having DNS issues and there was a local problem that could be attributed to the loss of service I was experiancing with the game server, and that there were people addressing the problem at that time and that it should be fixed by the following morning.
I checked the DNS resolution again that next morning, and it hadn't been solved - fine, it's taking them longer to fix it, so I went to college. When I got home I noticed that DNS lookups were still not working (timing out) using nslookup & any other apps, so I rang the technical support number again. This time I got patched through to their indian call centre, where they know nothing about networking, despite working for an ISP. They ran through the usual malarky of making sure that the nameservers were set up correctly, that I could ping an IP, restarting in safe mode (despite me saying all 4 of my computers on the network were having the same problem, and it all started happening at the same time - and me being on a router.) They didn't help and suggested that I do a system restore on all 4 computers and that it'd work. Needlesss to say I just hung up.
Friday after college I checked DNS lookups again, still no luck, so once again I rang up and showed that I'm not a dumbarse and they promtly put me through to "Tire 2" tech support (Do they meain 'tier' perhaps?), and this technical supporter couldn't solve the issues I was having, so he took my mobile # and said that he'd investigate and I would possibly get a call back about it.
Not being satisfied I decided to do some independant testing on my end - I knew I was connected to the i'net. I ran some tests, talked with some people on IRC and found out that although TCP/IP was working, UDP/IP packets were not coming in or out.
This prompted me to ring tech support once again, and this time I was direct. I told them that UDP wasn't working and the tech support guy responded with "What's UDP?" - I explained it a little and he put me on hold. 30 seconds later he came back to me and told me "I'm sorry sir, but NTL does not support UDP/IP, we only support TCP/IP". I was absolutely flabberghasted and asked if he was serious, "yes" was the reply. I was not convinced and asked to speak to his supervisor, who reiterated the fact they were now blocking all UDP traffic, since Weds evening (Wow, what a coincidence!!!!!111). When I asked for the reason this is what he replied with:
"As I'm sure you're aware, UDP packets try to find the fastest route through the network, and that takes up a lot of bandwidth. We analysed the network usage and found that UDP was taking a significant about of bandwidth and at peak times there were loads of UDP packets floating around. With the new upgrades to users' packages, we're now slightly shorter on bandwidth, and since we've made the change it's actually working in customer's favour."
I called him a liar and hung up, saying that I would report him to customer service and cancel my account... later that evening my dad, who is the bill payer, did report the issue to Customer Service (they've screwed us around with billing at the begining of the month too) and got given a reference number, and they said that they would look into the DNS issues.
At the moment, UDP packets are still not coming in or out for me, I cannot see any configuration errors anywhere, does anyone have any suggestions for how I might fix this other than harrassing NTL? (and if it's not fixed my the end of Monday boy are they going to know about it)
etccarmageddon
11-06-2006, 21:34
25% of all internet traffic is UDP - turn that off and VOIP cant work.
25% of all internet traffic is UDP - turn that off and VOIP cant work.
Or DNS.
etccarmageddon
11-06-2006, 21:36
and I've just checked my voip and it still works so UDP is on here - obviously the call centre is talking crap - AGAIN.
The CS rep sounded shocked when we said that's what the tech support guys said
etccarmageddon
11-06-2006, 21:38
I think NTL should be kicking IBM's backside - they run the call centres dont they?
No idea, but whoever runs them employs idiots...
etccarmageddon
11-06-2006, 21:48
I think that's a little unfair on idiots! Most idiots I know are smarter than the NTL tech support line.
heh, true.
Does anyone have any suggestions or should I bitch to customer service some more?
At the moment, UDP packets are still not coming in or out for me
OK, can you be specific? I can understand blocked incoming UDP packets, but outbound would suggest that perhaps your own firewall could be the problem?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What a complete set of plonkers. ntl would never block udp as obviously many services would just stop working (dns can use tcp, but mainly uses udp).
Have you restarted your cable modem and router (just to be sure) ?
heh, true.
Does anyone have any suggestions or should I bitch to customer service some more?
just to be sure on your end, download a small linux livecd and boot that to check your udp.
funny that lie, it would be fun to see how the NTL cable modems, and STB's would download the new config files for updated speeds without UDP and tftp.
http://www.networksorcery.com/enp/ien/ien133.txt
"1: Purpose
TFTP is a simple protocol to transfer files, and therefore was
named the Trivial File Transfer Protocol or TFTP. It is built on top of
the Internet User Datagram protocol (UDP or Datagram) [2] so it may be
used to move files between machines on different networks."
http://www.networksorcery.com/enp/protocol/tftp.htm
there are masses of official UDP ports that most client/server apps use every day, search for 'udp text' to get an idea.
etccarmageddon
12-06-2006, 00:19
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What a complete set of plonkers. ntl would never block udp as obviously many services would just stop working (dns can use tcp, but mainly uses udp).
Have you restarted your cable modem and router (just to be sure) ?this is from the official NTL help desk - it must be true! ;)
homealone
12-06-2006, 00:32
please can we stop calling the responses from the ntl associates, 'lies' 'crap' & imply they are 'idiots' - they are clearly being misinformed & badly trained ;)
etccarmageddon
12-06-2006, 07:36
they aren't NTL associates though - are they? they're staff from a dodgy Indian company sub contracted from NTL. and their responses clearly are crap.
I don't run a firewall (I just hide behind the NAT my router provides), I've tried going directly from the modem to all of my networked PCs directly, using ethernet and USB, and I've restarted my modem more times than I care to remember... I'm 100% certain it's not my computers or router that's the issue here, it's either the modem or NTL's connection.
Also, most DNS implementations only fall back to TCP when the data payload is >512KiB.
I have no idea why UDP is blocked... it just is. I've tried sending UDP packets to several people who've tried to help me on IRC, and I've run ethereal and tried to capture UDP packets that they've sent me, and none of us recieved any packets. It's just strange.
homealone
12-06-2006, 09:24
they aren't NTL associates though - are they? they're staff from a dodgy Indian company sub contracted from NTL. and their responses clearly are crap.
While they are on the end of an NTL line, as far as I'm concerned they are employed by NTL, however indirectly. My point is, that whoever employs them, is clearly failing to provide proper training & communication - calling the front line staff 'idiots' does not address that problem. I'm not defending the 'service' being provided, just suggesting that the person you first contact on the phone is not the root cause of the problems with that service. :)
I've been there in the call centre locally. The level of training and help from people above when a customer has a problem you don't know how to fix is nothing short of astonishing. And obviously I don't mean in a good way.
Chrysalis
12-06-2006, 09:41
not sure what ntl expect of their TS staff but not knowing what UDP is pretty hillarious.
I thought the first part of the reason was quite 'funny' ;
As I'm sure you're aware, UDP packets try to find the fastest route through the network ..
So what do TCP packets do then ? find the slowest ? The're both IP packets .......
handyman
12-06-2006, 11:04
I think NTL should be kicking IBM's backside - they run the call centres dont they?
Makes me sick it really does. One of my goals if I ever get any money is to set up a outsourced technical support call centre. Advertise proper money to draw in intelligent people and train them well. (Anyone working at ntl will know there are some proper numptys that work there)
---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------
I thought the first part of the reason was quite 'funny' ;
This tickled me ... :)
and at peak times there were loads of UDP packets floating around
etccarmageddon
12-06-2006, 11:04
Makes me sick it really does. One of my goals if I ever get any money is to set up a outsourced technical support call centre. Advertise proper money to draw in intelligent people and train them well. (Anyone working at ntl will know there are some proper numptys that work there)within the UK I hope.
I thought the first part of the reason was quite 'funny' ;
As I'm sure you're aware, UDP packets try to find the fastest route through the network .. So what do TCP packets do then ? find the slowest ? The're both IP packets .......
Actually, if I remember my Cisco training, exactly what route IP packets take through the network can be governed by many things (speed and cost being two). However, you are right, It doesn't matter whether a packet is TCP or UDP, it still follows the same routing rules.
---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------
It's also worth noting that most of the streams from NTL's Broadband Plus package may not work properly without UDP.
handyman
12-06-2006, 13:06
within the UK I hope.
Of course:
Outside of London and in an area with little call centres already if there is such a thing. Garland have plundred 1000 jobs etc in M'bro and the other callcentres meaning that there is very little else to chose from when hiring.
I very much doubt that anyone with a CV would get turned down by Garlands, When I went to the openday (everyday is an openday) there where people wandering in with their shopping and in t-shirts to apply :erm: :rolleyes:
they aren't NTL associates though - are they? they're staff from a dodgy Indian company sub contracted from NTL. and their responses clearly are crap.
While they are on the end of an NTL line, as far as I'm concerned they are employed by NTL, however indirectly. My point is, that whoever employs them, is clearly failing to provide proper training & communication - calling the front line staff 'idiots' does not address that problem. I'm not defending the 'service' being provided, just suggesting that the person you first contact on the phone is not the root cause of the problems with that service. :)
Actually, I agree. It's not fair to blame the person on the front line, without knowing how they have been trained. After all, most people online wouldn't know a TCP/IP or UDP packet if it came an slapped them in the face. They certainly wouldn't know the difference.
I realise that the service is outsourced, so NTL has no direct control. However, as joe soap probably won't know he is actually dealing with IBM, and not NTL, it is NTL who look bad when things like this happen, so I would have thought it to be in NTL's interest to ensure minimum levels of knowledge for all customer-facing staff, and also to test the centres regularly.
For instance, one company I worked for was rumoured to emply fake customers to come in to a shop I worked in to buy things, complain etc, to see how staff reacted. NTL could employ fake customers to phone up these call centres.
etccarmageddon
12-06-2006, 13:23
instead they employ fake technical staff judging by their knowledge levels!
Yay! Rang tech support again and got someone who knew what they were talking about (English too... any correlation there?)
Once again the modem was restarted umpteen times, and we swapped what was connected, router, more restarts, PC, more restarts, another PC, more restarts and it just started working again :s
Back on the router and all seems to be working fine again now... I just hope it stays like this.
Odd problem, eh? :s
Glad you got it sorted. :tu:
We analysed the network usage and found that UDP was taking a significant about of bandwidth and at peak times there were loads of UDP packets floating around. With the new upgrades to users' packages, we're now slightly shorter on bandwidth..
I thought UDP required LESS bandwidth as there's no ACK return...?
James Henry
12-06-2006, 21:41
Actually, if I remember my Cisco training, exactly what route IP packets take through the network can be governed by many things (speed and cost being two). However, you are right, It doesn't matter whether a packet is TCP or UDP, it still follows the same routing rules.
---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------
It's also worth noting that most of the streams from NTL's Broadband Plus package may not work properly without UDP.
It all depends really on what the score is with them. With the advent of traffic shaping you can set TOS bits on the traffic and use it with an MPLS / diffserv aware network to cause different routing behaviours depending on the type of traffic.
In ntl's core traffic uses IS-IS and MPLS LSPs for routing traffic. IS-IS on th e ntl core runs solely based on metrics assigned to interfaces and LSPs appear to be set statically. It is possible to set TOS bits / use diffserv to send traffic down different LSPs.
That said I very very much doubt that ntl are doing this ;) The tech support guy is, of course, making this up.
"I'm sorry sir, but NTL does not support UDP/IP, we only support TCP/IP"
This is the most legendary quote ;)
It all depends really on what the score is with them. With the advent of traffic shaping you can set TOS bits on the traffic and use it with an MPLS / diffserv aware network to cause different routing behaviours depending on the type of traffic.
In ntl's core traffic uses IS-IS and MPLS LSPs for routing traffic. IS-IS on th e ntl core runs solely based on metrics assigned to interfaces and LSPs appear to be set statically. It is possible to set TOS bits / use diffserv to send traffic down different LSPs.
That said I very very much doubt that ntl are doing this ;) The tech support guy is, of course, making this up.
The LSP's are I believe created using LDP and thus follow the path that IS-IS dictates.
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