The big question.. NTL or ADSL?

[FusionXN1]

Right, I'm finally moving out of the village I'm currently in and have purchased a house in grimsby/cleethorpes. Now atm I'm on 2MB adsl with the normal and rubbish 256kb up. Now the house i bought is only 120 metres from the exchange (BT) so i can get 6.5mb to the full 8MB on BT's ADSLMAX.

The question is should i get NTL on the 10mb line? After reading all the bad on here it's off putting but surely someone on NTL must love it? I know cable has advantages over adsl - quicker routes to websites etc.. and lower pings but is it worth the extra money?

So what should I do? Get 8MB from BT or 10MB from NTL.. :)

Thanks for your time.

[Chrysalis]

Amazingly large proportion of people on forums that are 100 or so metres from telephone exchanges :) out of couriousity you picked that deliberate or just lucky?

I was going to say ask for feedback from ntl peeps in your area since ntl is a area dependent some areas are good others not so good, and your distance from exchange which you just confirmed is very good.

If you can get LLU I would go with adsl, if not probably cable.

[etccarmageddon]

NTL charge £35 a month for the upto 10meg service which in my experience is upto 7meg. So I'd go for ADSL as you can get a similar speed for less.

[bongman_uk]

I dont like ADSL.

Cable modems are ALWAYS connected, unlike ADSL modems.
ADSL still seems like dialup to me (apart from the speeds)
ADSL still uses the same old copper wires as 56k does!

but its a matter of opinion

[RealDiamond]

Yep Most Adsl uses the same crap network of BT so it doesnt matter who you buy from. BT controlls the speed due to it being thier WIRE.

[jtwn]

ntl in Grimsby is pretty good really. Whilst I'd recommend you to go for 10mb as I get 1200kb/s..........I don't want you taking my bandwidth :p:

Nah though, I'd go for it personally.

[Web-Junkie]

Well you either want BT which is:

40gig/month for £29.99
20gig/month for £24.99
and 'up to' 8mb which you may get close to!

Or you have unlimited NTL:
£24.99 for 'up to' 4mb
£34.99 for 'up to' 10mb!
which you may/may not get full speed on depending on how many pr0n leechers/warez kiddies are in your area now it's an 'unlimited' service :)

So it's really a question of what's more appealing to YOU!?

As for the always on bit, just get an ADSL router that redials dropped connections and let that maintain an 'always on' connection for you.

[bongman_uk]

I stopped dialling up to access the internet when I threw away my 56k modem :D

[James Henry]

I dont like ADSL.

Cable modems are ALWAYS connected, unlike ADSL modems.
ADSL still seems like dialup to me (apart from the speeds)
ADSL still uses the same old copper wires as 56k does!

but its a matter of opinion

Never heard of ADSL routers then :)

I don't know many people at all who have an ADSL modem that dials on demand now, ISPs tend to give out routers for free. Attach to phone line, enter the username and password, it connects and stays connected barring a fault.

Ah wires. So you've no problem with using the same coax that transmits analogue TV and is 20 years old in some areas, but it's bad to have phone service and internet sharing the same cable. I'm sure people on 100Mbit VDSL2+ over twisted copper pairs are most upset.

Cable has no better pings than I do on my DSL to be honest. I don't see anyone on cable here who pings the Beeb in 6 - 7ms. My DSL is however unbundled so is not representative of BT Wholesale DSL. BT Wholesale DSL will indeed ping slightly higher than some ntl areas.

I get the feeling you've never used DSL. I have used both DSL and cable, and worked for DSL and cable companies over the past 6 years and would like to think I can supply a balanced view of the two technologies.

OP go to http://www.samknows.com and enter your details there, see what's available to you in terms of DSL services. Some offer much better value for money than the standard price ntl, and if you are close to the exchange and Be or UKOnline / Easynet is available you could get over 20Mbit for less than £30 / month.

If you don't mind giving them your phoneline and Bulldog is available to you you could get a similar speed from them for a similar price.

Just to address another point I'm guessing as you referred to ADSLMax that you were talking about just general DSL using a BT line, however if you weren't and were referring to using BT Broadband it probably isn't the best plan there are far better DSL deals available so I wouldn't really bother with that one.

Research your options with Samknows, there are DSL options that give more bang for the buck than ntl's cable packages, it's just a case of if they are available to you, in addition to this if customer service and technical support quality are an 'issue' it's a reason to be hesitant about taking ntl and some DSL ISPs. Browsing forums such as http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk will give you an idea of CS quality.

The quality of service available on both sets of services can vary from region to region and exchange to exchange. On cable someone down the road could have an impeccable service while yours is dire, likewise on DSL from area to area the quality of service offered varies. LLU services tend to have a better quality of service than BT ones.

---------- Post added at 12:09 ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 ----------

Yep Most Adsl uses the same crap network of BT so it doesnt matter who you buy from. BT controlls the speed due to it being thier WIRE.

That's incorrect BT only have control over speeds on their wholesale DSL, unbundled lines are only limited by line quality and line length. As OP is pretty close to the exchange those shouldn't be a problem.

[etccarmageddon]

Well you either want BT which is...what about LLU and other ADSL suppliers. Only a mug would look only at BT and not also check out the others!

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 ----------

also remember with NTL you dont need a phone line. so if you only need your mobile and dont want a landline, go with NTL.

[FusionXN1]

ntl in Grimsby is pretty good really. Whilst I'd recommend you to go for 10mb as I get 1200kb/s..........I don't want you taking my bandwidth :p:

Nah though, I'd go for it personally.
Well every street has there own bandwidth (According to NTL 20 people at max will ever use the same fiber) thats how Cable works and I;m not a big downloader.. the most i have every downloaded in 1 month is 128gb and that was because i formatted and lost all programs, game mods and addons etc.. So don't worry.

I'm ADSL now always on with a router.. i hear the D-Link gamelounge DGL-4300 is a good one for NTL and telewest cable.. Anyone have this on NTL?

Thanks for all of this BT does have a 882kb up on its Max but its £40.00 a month and still 8mb and with NTL getting 24 - 30mb end of the year (accoring to an "insider" they will to compete with LLUs) i think the right choice would be NTL... Seen as it's all fiber and not just fiber over BT's big fat pipes.

And no - the exchange was very lucky! I'm right near the beach (3 minute walk at tops) very nice house :)

Just out of question - as I will be getting 10MB, TV Family pack and Telephone from NTL can i get a deal via the phone? Also will i get a NTL 250 modem for 10mb?

[handyman]

not a big downloader.. the most i have every downloaded in 1 month is 128gb

128GB/ will be considered canning your bb be any bb provider regradless of cap or not.


I think the right choice would be NTL... Seen as it's all fiber and not just fiber over BT's big fat pipes.


Ntl:

Fibre to the hub
Fibre to the type 3 cab
Coax to the Dist Cab
Coax to the home.

[FusionXN1]

Yep no crap copper..

128GB/ will be considered canning your bb be any bb provider regradless of cap or not.

What do you mean?

[Web-Junkie]

what about LLU and other ADSL suppliers. Only a mug would look only at BT and not also check out the others!


Well, the original poster did state 'BT' twice in his post so that's why I gave him those BT options for comparison to NTL, not because it's the only one to consider.

[FusionXN1]

LLU from bulldog and be is not on my exchange so LLU is out of the question.

[Rik]

The question is should i get NTL on the 10mb line?

Yes you should my line has been rock solid since I got a NTL 250 Modem, ive had the odd blip over the weekend with certain sites, but overall im EXTREMELY HAPPY with my 10Meg Connection, 1205kB/s Down on Newsgroups everyday! never goes lower.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!

Well in Hertfordshire anyway.

[FusionXN1]

same thing in grimsby though thats 2 people say they get 1200 to 1300 all day long... hmm Anyone in the DN35 area wanna confirm?

[Chris]

Yep no crap copper..



What do you mean?
I think Handyman meant caning, as in to metaphorically beat the **** out of your connection with an instrument of corporal punishment ... in plainer terms, abusing the service. Even a provider of uncapped broadband would consider 124GB in one month to be unfair use. But then, if it was a one-off, you're unlikely to come to the attention of the ISP's AUP team, so I wouldn't worry.

[IanGuy]

My friend gets up to 9 meg on 10mb from NTL. I suppose it really does depend on where you live.

He mostly only obtains around an 8meg speed.

[Chrysalis]

Yep Most Adsl uses the same crap network of BT so it doesnt matter who you buy from. BT controlls the speed due to it being thier WIRE.

not for LLU

---------- Post added at 19:12 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------

Well every street has there own bandwidth (According to NTL 20 people at max will ever use the same fiber) thats how Cable works and I;m not a big downloader.. the most i have every downloaded in 1 month is 128gb and that was because i formatted and lost all programs, game mods and addons etc.. So don't worry.

I'm ADSL now always on with a router.. i hear the D-Link gamelounge DGL-4300 is a good one for NTL and telewest cable.. Anyone have this on NTL?

Thanks for all of this BT does have a 882kb up on its Max but its £40.00 a month and still 8mb and with NTL getting 24 - 30mb end of the year (accoring to an "insider" they will to compete with LLUs) i think the right choice would be NTL... Seen as it's all fiber and not just fiber over BT's big fat pipes.

And no - the exchange was very lucky! I'm right near the beach (3 minute walk at tops) very nice house :)

Just out of question - as I will be getting 10MB, TV Family pack and Telephone from NTL can i get a deal via the phone? Also will i get a NTL 250 modem for 10mb?

thsi 30mbit romour strikes again :/ ntl are in the middle of cost cutting, they are suddenly going to change their spending policy to allow them to rollout a 30mbit service?

also sorry to burst your bubble but I think ntl are contending at higher then 20:1 now days, and its more then 1 street that uses a cabinet, I was using a street cab a few streets away.

[FusionXN1]

not for LLU

---------- Post added at 19:12 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------



thsi 30mbit romour strikes again :/ ntl are in the middle of cost cutting, they are suddenly going to change their spending policy to allow them to rollout a 30mbit service?

also sorry to burst your bubble but I think ntl are contending at higher then 20:1 now days, and its more then 1 street that uses a cabinet, I was using a street cab a few streets away.

Dont have LLU and don't shoot the messenger :P I read that today on NTL's website!

[Chrysalis]

please post url to link please and state where it is on the page thanks.

[etccarmageddon]

NTL state they contend at 20 to 1.

[jtwn]

thsi 30mbit romour strikes again :/ ntl are in the middle of cost cutting, they are suddenly going to change their spending policy to allow them to rollout a 30mbit service?


Don't carry on with that unless you want egg on your face in the future :)

[Paradox26]

Coming to think of it, I've found that cable is usually better than DSL [exluding LLU, before you LLU people start on me =]] when it works! [When it works - can't stress the point enough]

Compared to people I know on DSL, my pings are always less to the same server, my speeds will always hit 2Meg, day or night and the only prob Ive had so far is with TV for which a cable repull has been decided.

It really boils down to the area where you live and how many people will be sharing your bandwidth. Eg. For my street I reckon hardly anyone has ntl cable so I can max out my connection any time of the day on newsgroups plus my connection is rock solid 24/7.

The only thing that seems to be playing up atm are ntl's DNS servers. But that should hopefully be fixed soon. I would now only go DSL if I were offered an amazing deal that I could not turn down, otherwise for the near future I will be sticking with ntl [roll on 4 Meg]

Theres a fair few factors involved like cost, people in your area, so it's probably best to and use the net at a mates house in the same area with cable to find out how it works. If its not your cup of tea then DSL it is.

Oh yeh P.S. if you do get cable, make sure its all installed properly by the engineer [which it hopefully should]. The guy who did our BB via SACM did a great job and theres never been a problem in the 1.5 years we've had it. The TV install was dodgy, so we had to call out a tech to sort the levels after a poor install.

[FusionXN1]

K thanks will do.. and heres the link:


Q. I've heard that contention ratios differ between cable and ADSL broadband. Can you explain?
A. Yes. We have engineered our local access network to provide a 20:1 contention ratio in comparison to a number of ADSL providers who have contention ratios as high as 50:1. The "contention ratio" is the number of customers that share one unit of data capacity, meaning the lower the contention ratio the higher the quality of the local access network.


http://www.ntl.com/mediacentre/thecompany/faq/default.asp?section=3

[popper]

ofcourse its even better if your 'only 120 metres from the Co-Location/ISP and can string a nice RJ45 across to your 1GIG or even 10GIG network card and put a nice PC in the Co-Locations rackspace.

you might use the new wireless 11N but wouldn't get the speed that way :)

[Shaun]

Yep no crap copper..

...and coax is made from? :erm:

Personally I take the technology out of it when I make my decision on ISP it doesn't help - Ntl are crap in my area BT are fine and Bulldog are great (connection wise). Prejudices over technology are just silly.

You really need to just plump for on one and hope it's o.k. - if it's not then when your contract runs out then change :)

According to NTL 20 people at max will ever use the same fiber

:erm: They talk about contention not fibres.

[FusionXN1]

...and coax is made from? :erm:

Personally I take the technology out of it when I make my decision on ISP it doesn't help - Ntl are crap in my area BT are fine and Bulldog are great (connection wise). Prejudices over technology are just silly.

You really need to just plump for on one and hope it's o.k. - if it's not then when your contract runs out then change :)



:erm: They talk about contention not fibres.

Im using that and whats in the current issue of custom pc - they say how cable works.. yes coax is copper but not the same as a very old copper telephone line i have now... And yes my point proven 20:1 contention and in the custom pc mag it says about people down 1 street share a certain amount of bandwidth etc.. Anyway back on topic.. Should i jump on the NTL train or stay on BT?

[Stu038]

And yes my point proven 20:1 contention and in the custom pc mag it says about people down 1 street share a certain amount of bandwidth etc..

Sorry mate but I think you need to read up a bit on contention ratios ;)

Your quote states
The "contention ratio" is the number of customers that share one unit of data capacity

The operative words here are one unit of data capacity. Not one fibre
A single fibre can feed between 200 and 600 homes. Going on an estimated penetration of 25% thats between 50 and 150 other customers. The bandwidth laid down by the DOCCIS protocols are 27MB on the Langely platform or 36MB on the Bromley platform. In simple terms that's per fibre or as we said that 50 to 150 other customers. Contention ratios aren't anywhere as simple as that though but I don't want to take away the wonders of google for you ;)

Another thing to remember is not to confuse network bandwidth with upload or download speeds. Oh and never believe the media :)

In answer to your original question working for em I'm biased but personally I've had less problems over the last few years than most of my mates who are on BT or the various other providers

[etccarmageddon]

Don't carry on with that unless you want egg on your face in the future :)I expect it will happen but it wont be soon. (the 30meg option) anyone can start a rumour saying there will be 30meg cos speeds are bound to increase the difficult question is when.

[FusionXN1]

Sorry mate but I think you need to read up a bit on contention ratios ;)

Your quote states


The operative words here are one unit of data capacity. Not one fibre
A single fibre can feed between 200 and 600 homes. Going on an estimated penetration of 25% thats between 50 and 150 other customers. The bandwidth laid down by the DOCCIS protocols are 27MB on the Langely platform or 36MB on the Bromley platform. In simple terms that's per fibre or as we said that 50 to 150 other customers. Contention ratios aren't anywhere as simple as that though but I don't want to take away the wonders of google for you ;)

Another thing to remember is not to confuse network bandwidth with upload or download speeds. Oh and never believe the media :)

In answer to your original question working for em I'm biased but personally I've had less problems over the last few years than most of my mates who are on BT or the various other providers
I didn't mean that! Why would i mean that? If I know London now has the most fibre in the world as it carries data from europe to US etc... Why would I mean 1 fibre? (that was in a news article a few months back!) Sorry for mixed signals..

What I mean is according to custom pc.. One street shares an allocated bandwidth margin. And compared to ADSL you have your own dedicated line to the exchange THEN it's 50:1 were as ntl aim for 20:1.

EDIT: Thought i would add they say:

DOCCIS1.0 is 54mb per street
DOCCIS1.1 is higher but im moving so i dont have the mag out no more can't check. Anyway not to take this off track.. would like to know if anyone has moved from bt to ntl and glad they did it?

[Chrysalis]

Don't carry on with that unless you want egg on your face in the future :)

ummm, I am not scared of having egg on my face dude.

I am reading people saying ntl do this and that.

then surprise surprise there is no proof.

the 30mbit romour seems to have started on nthell.co.uk then suddenly people saying things like inside source etc.

my cost cutting of course is based on facts from news reports that they have 250million pound savings to make.

---------- Post added at 07:40 ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 ----------

right so there is a url stating 20:1 then but it seems old and out of date. Interesting since I find it hard to believe that 10meg and 4meg is 20:1 or under.

---------- Post added at 07:46 ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 ----------

Sorry mate but I think you need to read up a bit on contention ratios ;)

Your quote states


The operative words here are one unit of data capacity. Not one fibre
A single fibre can feed between 200 and 600 homes. Going on an estimated penetration of 25% thats between 50 and 150 other customers. The bandwidth laid down by the DOCCIS protocols are 27MB on the Langely platform or 36MB on the Bromley platform. In simple terms that's per fibre or as we said that 50 to 150 other customers. Contention ratios aren't anywhere as simple as that though but I don't want to take away the wonders of google for you ;)

Another thing to remember is not to confuse network bandwidth with upload or download speeds. Oh and never believe the media :)

In answer to your original question working for em I'm biased but personally I've had less problems over the last few years than most of my mates who are on BT or the various other providers

Thanks for the info stu, I have noticed since I moved tho, BT have problems with distance they will need to rectify sooner or later, I got 1.8km straight line distance which of course will be longer for actual distance so I am expecting something around 4meg max burst speed on adsl assuming 3-4km line distance and good quality line. So I know ADSL isnt always better and likewise cable isnt always better, this guys distance from the exchange is incredibly short which is why I reccomended LLU should he be able to get it.

[etccarmageddon]

right so there is a url stating 20:1 then but it seems old and out of date.

I disagree that the url appears to be out of date but I do think it's bull**** - I cant believe 20:1 is still the rule.

[James Henry]

I didn't mean that! Why would i mean that? If I know London now has the most fibre in the world as it carries data from europe to US etc... Why would I mean 1 fibre? (that was in a news article a few months back!) Sorry for mixed signals..

What I mean is according to custom pc.. One street shares an allocated bandwidth margin. And compared to ADSL you have your own dedicated line to the exchange THEN it's 50:1 were as ntl aim for 20:1.

EDIT: Thought i would add they say:

DOCCIS1.0 is 54mb per street
DOCCIS1.1 is higher but im moving so i dont have the mag out no more can't check. Anyway not to take this off track.. would like to know if anyone has moved from bt to ntl and glad they did it?

Custom don't have a clue what they're talking about so I'd ignore them. DOCSIS 1.1 is no faster for download than DOCSIS 1.0, the only difference in raw bandwidth between them is that it requires the devices either end of the connection to support a higher bandwidth on the upload (10.24Mbit line rate per upstream instead of the 5.12Mbit required under DOCSIS1.0), whereas this is optional in DOCSIS 1.0.

The numbers they quote 'per street' are also nonsense.

As previously stated however it's per fibre node not per street, multiple streets can be combined together at the fibre node so that 27 / 38 / 51Mbit can be shared between several cabinets across several streets.

Just to make things even more complicated fibre nodes can also be 'combined' (would be more accurate to say a single downstream signal is split between nodes) so that the single 27 / 38 / 51Mbit downstream bandwidth is spread between multiple nodes and from there multiple 'streets'.

Just to make things yet more complicated you can shove multiple 27 / 38 / 51Mbit downstreams down each service control group, however in most cases it's just a single downstream.

[FusionXN1]

Ok then will do! So NTL yay or nay?

[etccarmageddon]

you have to make the decision based on what people have said here.

[popper]

i wonder if we will ever see something like this in the near future.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1972495,00.asp
"
learned about FiOS, or Fiber to the Premises (FTTP), almost a year ago. It's not a new technology. Fiber-optic cable has been around for decades, but it's only in the last year or so that Verizon created the FiOS program and began running fiber to consumers' doorsteps. Fiber offers speeds that beat cable and make DSL look like dialup. It's the next big thing in broadband."

[FusionXN1]

FTTH? (Fiber to the home?) Thats great! I want! Any plans for the UK? NTL could easy do it...

[carlingman]

FTTH? (Fiber to the home?) Thats great! I want! Any plans for the UK? NTL could easy do it...

NTL have already dabbled in this many years ago where they supplied FTTH.

Done as a trial to the big wigs MPs mainly in a posh appartment block in Westminster.

See post 55 here http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=21633&page=4&highlight=dolphin

:D

[popper]

like i said
i wonder if we will ever see something like this in the near future.

[FusionXN1]

Hope we get it :(

[Stuart]

I would be surprised if we did. It would cost billions to lay fiber to every house and NTL dont have enough cash to enable digital tv to all areas, which is much cheaper.

[AbyssUnderground]

I would be surprised if we did. It would cost billions to lay fiber to every house and NTL dont have enough cash to enable digital tv to all areas, which is much cheaper.

What about Ethernet to home? Im sure a bit of ethernet cable capable of 1Gbps isnt going to cost as much as fibre. Only the replacement hardware would be the major cost.

[Chrysalis]

I disagree that the url appears to be out of date but I do think it's bull**** - I cant believe 20:1 is still the rule.

It was easy to judge it out of date since its judgements on ADSL are based on outdated info, BT no longer state a contention ratio.

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 14:58 ----------

If I am not mistaken ethernet to home requires some sort of fibre rollout, you cannot have copper on part of the route.

No doubt someone will correct me soon :)

[popper]

What about Ethernet to home? Im sure a bit of ethernet cable capable of 1Gbps isnt going to cost as much as fibre. Only the replacement hardware would be the major cost.

i dont know about everywere else, but when C&W did wythenshawe, they also put twisted pair (rj45 cable cat5) telephone cable in to all the external house boxs, so id think it could be as simple as taking the unused strands in that and putting a standard RJ45 connector on there at both ends, and there you are, change the kit at both ends and all's well with the world LOL.