View Full Version : Would you have helped?
http://www.neenaw.co.uk/index.php/ambulances/85/its-not-my-job/
This blog belongs to an LAS (London Ambulance Service) dispatcher. This particular story leaves me with great concern about how apathetic or fearful of litigation we have become as a society.
Read it and then comment on what you would have done. Perhaps you can restore my faith??
Maybe you could mention if you have had Frist Aid training or whether you feel you ought to...
Graham M
10-03-2006, 16:27
Id have shut up the shop for half an hour to go and see how the person was and started CPR if needed. I have very minimal first aid training so would have a good idea of what to do and what not to do I guess. Seems dispicable to me
I have first aid training (re-qualified in september). We were told (and I hope I misunderstood this) that as first aiders, we are counted as having a medical qualification (although minimal), and, as such, should not treat people unless we have insurance to do so, or are happy to risk legal action if our actions (however good) leave the casualty injured in some way. I am allowed to treat casualties at work, as I am covered by the Uni's insurance.
Shocking.
Personally I'd have gone to help. Lets see someone try to fire me for helping someone who could well have been seriously injured.
That said a few years back I was in America and someone dropped dead on the other side of the road. Someone checked for a pulse and called an ambulance but people were stopping others from helping in case they were sued by him or his family :Yikes:
homealone
10-03-2006, 16:32
wow, that is a sad indictment of our society, I am not sure if it is a fear of becoming involved, or just people have become a lot more insular, over the years & no longer feel part of the wider community.
I don't have first aid training, but Mrs Gaz does & had to put it into practice last year, when a neighbour has a heart attack. She said it was a lot different trying to do CPR on a real person, rather than a dummy. Unfortunately he did eventually die, despite our efforts & those of the paramedics, but she didn't hesitate for one second to try & help & I was really proud of her.
I'd like to think I would try to help to the best of my ability if placed in a similar situation :)
well if I would have helped if I could have.
My first aid is not up to date, but I remember it was 1 to 5 if it was cpr and so on, the old recovery position and so on.
but I can understand why people these days dont help, as this nation is becoming like america, in that you can get sued for helping, because a lot of people see there is a quick buck in this, like in america.
but when it comes to my work, I am not allowed to help, although I help in other ways, like getting info from the database to help the ambulance crew when they arrive after I have called for assistance from the duty first aiders. and get the rest of the customers out of the gym, so they don't see what is going on, and can't get in the way.
ik
That is appaling.
I value life over any posessions and goods so I would have gone to help.
I'm not trained in first aid but know a few of the basics. I'd have probably gone to see what I could do and then kept the ambulance people updated.
MovedGoalPosts
10-03-2006, 16:51
I've done a number of first aid courses although I'm slightly out of date at the moment (to be rectified very soon). I always carry gloves and a face mask in my wallet, ever since finding some bloke collapsed in the street (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/showthread.php?t=16347)and at the time not having any protective barriers yet needing to get hands on as he was having severe breathing difficulties.
Put it this way, provided that it is safe for me to get involved i.e. I am not being put at stupid risk of becoming another casualty, I would always get stuck in.
For those concerned about the liabilites of providing first aid, I have frequently been told there are simple good samaritan laws in this country that would protect anyone making an honest mistake during first aid, provided they were acting reasonably and not trying something heroic beyond their training.
I found these first aid podcasts that someone posted a while ago quite useful for learning the basics.
http://www.sja.org.uk/firstaid/info/
For those concerned about the liabilites of providing first aid, I have frequently been told there are simple good samaritan laws in this country that would protect anyone making an honest mistake during first aid, provided they were acting reasonably and not trying something heroic beyond their training.
Well, I have to admit, I don't think the liability problem would stop me anyway. I can't seriously see any judge allowing any action taken by someone (who would have died otherwise) to be taken against the person who saved them, no matter how bad their injuries afterward.
Obviously, what I can do is limited by a lack of both medical training and equipment, but I am at least able to do limited patching up and CPR.
Sorry but I cannot restore all your faith, I would not have tried CPR or indeed have touched the person in any way. I would, however, answer the questions about location etc.
This statement by the blogger is incredible ;
I hope that tomorrow those three people all get hit by a big red bus and that everyone steps around their bleeding bodies as they lay dying in the street.What a fantastic attitude from someone whose job it is. :rolleyes:
Chimaera
10-03-2006, 17:52
This statement by the blogger is incredible ;
I hope that tomorrow those three people all get hit by a big red bus and that everyone steps around their bleeding bodies as they lay dying in the street.What a fantastic attitude from someone whose job it is. :rolleyes:
I'm sure that was just an 'after the event' reaction - and who hasn't felt like that at some point in their job?
I'd have shut the shop and gone and done whatever I could. I used to be first aid trained (the full 4 day course) but then the possibility of being sued by parents if something went wrong was raised. So now I have done the basic 1 day 'emergency' first aiders course, which is all my employer requires me to have.
ScaredWebWarrior
10-03-2006, 17:58
Read it and then comment on what you would have done. Perhaps you can restore my faith??Personally, I would already be at the scene trying to do what I can, but I can understand that for a shopkeeper that is not necessarily that easy.
However, the mouthy young man ought to have his **** kicked.
Maybe you could mention if you have had Frist Aid training or whether you feel you ought to...Yes, I am First Aid qualified.
The last time I was required to act was when a cyclist in Nottingham had been tripped up by the tram rails. She'd gone over the handle bars and smashed her head and was bleeding profusely from head & nose.
I stayed until the ambulance arrived and did the best I could (which wasn't much, under the circumstances.) I did however stop someone from trying to stop her nose bleed - I'm sure she'd have choked on her own blood had they tried. The only other thing I could do was to make her as comfortable as possible and keep her still until the ambulance crew could assess her.
A driver helped by parking across the traffic to protect me & patient and someone left me a blanket. I believe the patient survived, and I hope from then on she chose to wear a cycle helmet (which she hadn't been wearing.)
---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------
I don't have first aid training, but Mrs Gaz does & had to put it into practice last year, when a neighbour has a heart attack. She said it was a lot different trying to do CPR on a real person, rather than a dummy.Well done Mrs Gaz!! I know from personal experience how hard it is to do even the First Aid you know.
Why didn't some of the people outside ring from a mobile?
To hell with the shop!
I'd have given the dispatcher my mobile number so he could call me back while I was seing to the person outside
ScaredWebWarrior
10-03-2006, 18:01
What a fantastic attitude from someone whose job it is. :rolleyes:I understand what he meant...
greencreeper
10-03-2006, 18:38
I can believe it. We get it at work, though not as serious. System has gone down - Doctors cannot access medical records, etc. No remote access to the server - TTL expired in transit. Only person who can help is scared to go into the room where the server is, and wants you to fix it from where you are. And they think you're been unreasonable when you say, "No" :rolleyes:
I've done first aid so I'll usually wade in, unless it's not safe. My mum's brilliant at this sort of stuff - barking orders at people so shocked they just comply :D Has helped colleagues and strangers alike. Only the other day she found a drunk laid out on the pavement. Assessed his level of consciousness and ABC, flagged down two police officers, phoned an ambulance... Wish I had her genes :erm:
I am a first aider I did my last full course in St Johns funnily enough and did a brush up the last time I did my offshore survival refresher in january.
One of the first things you do when finding a patient is ask is "can I help"
This apparently goes along way if a legal action happens.
Obviously if the patient is unconcious you have to go ahead anyway
It also helps if anybody is showing any sign of assisting is to get their name (witness)
something else I could mention is, If everyone put an ICE (In Case of Emergency) number on their mobile it helps emergency services to get straight in touch with someone you yourself would ring (partner, parents children etc)
I would have tried to help (obviously) even though my cpr has 'expired'.
Reminds me of years ago when I was about 15yo on the tube in London. Man collapses in the carriage.....everyone just ignores him (wtf?) I try to help him and ask nearby passengers to help as well....they just ignore me :disturbd:
Big Gamer
10-03-2006, 18:59
It's a difficult question. Where to help or not. You make a mistake you get sued. Even if you save a life. You can still get sued. But as for someone not bothering to go outside a shop to see whats going on or getting a customer to find out.? That is just petty
Thinking about it, I had something a bit similar at work one night.
My previous shift partner suddenly complained of chest pains and went white as a sheet (quite impresive for a Seikh!)
I phoned for an ambulance, and because of our stupid address where the building is called One, although it's number apparently isn't 1 :rolleyes: the dispatcher had difficulty finding it on the map, so requested that someone stand outside to flag down the ambulance.
I asked the front desk security guard to do this as I needed to stay with my colleague, and this guy was totally uninsterested.
I could have thumped him!
Thankfully it turned out just to be a muscle spasm, which led him to think he was having a heart attack, which gave him a panic attack causing him to hyperventilate, making his arm go numb, making the thought of him having a heart attack seem more real.
budwieser
13-03-2006, 21:20
I`m so appalled by this total lack of interest and Humanity for our fellow people.!!!!!!!!!!!!! :confused: :confused: :confused:
Wtf happened to the milk of Human kindness??????????
How can people just walk past something like this?
I happened upon a guy beating up his Girlfriend a few years ago and i intervened, i walked past 3 guys giving a bloke a kicking a few years ago and i stopped it.
Have we all become so selfish that we can`t stick up for each other and protect each other.!?????????????
If somebody was kicking the **** out of a member of your family, wouldn`t you want them to intervene.
Come on people, Get the pride back in this once Great Country of ours.!
Don`t let the **** Rule it.!!!!!!!!!!:)
I would like to know what the Pharmacist was doing during all this. I'm sure the Royal Pharmacists would like to remind their registered Pharmacist about their code of conduct and ethics (http://www.rpsgb.org.uk/pdfs/coe050803.pdf) -
Increasingly the public looks to pharmacists in
community practice for help and assistance,
sometimes in emergencies.
(a) Pharmacists must consider using their rights
to make emergency supplies of medicines
whenever a patient has an urgent need for a
medicine. They must consider the medical
consequences, if any, of not supplying.
(b) Where pharmacists are not able to make an
emergency supply of a medicine they should do
everything possible to advise the patient how to
obtain essential medical care.
(c) Pharmacists must assist persons in need of
emergency first aid or medical treatment whether
by administering first aid within their competence
or by summoning assistance and/or the
emergency services. The Society's booklet,
"Emergency first aid: guidance for pharmacists",
provides guidance on action in life-threatening
situations.
etccarmageddon
14-03-2006, 08:21
I would have turfed everyone out of the shop and ordered my staff to assist where possible - even if it's just to hold someone's hand. It also should be against the law to obstruct a paramedic/999 operator etc in carrying out their duties including providing assistance when asked and when that assistance is within your abilities.
I would have turfed everyone out of the shop and ordered my staff to assist where possible - even if it's just to hold someone's hand. It also should be against the law to obstruct a paramedic/999 operator etc in carrying out their duties including providing assistance when asked and when that assistance is within your abilities.
:tu::clap: I totally agree with that:)
To hell with the shop!
I'd have given the dispatcher my mobile number so he could call me back while I was seing to the person outside
If you'd phoned him from it, he'd have your number (and probably location) already.
I would have helped. And if I had been a customer in the pharmacy I'd have gone back in (after helping) and told the staff what I thought of their attitude.
Unbelievable.
ScaredWebWarrior
14-03-2006, 10:24
I would have turfed everyone out of the shop and ordered my staff to assist where possible - even if it's just to hold someone's hand. Fair enough - if it is your shop to turf people out of. I haven't seen anything that allows me to decide whether the staff at the pharmacy had that option open to them.
It also should be against the law to obstruct a paramedic/999 operator etc in carrying out their duties including providing assistance when asked and when that assistance is within your abilities.Certainly it should be unlawful to obstruct, but it would be unreasonable to make it a requirement to assist. Clearly, when assistance means providing information on the circumstances, then not doing so would be obstruction, but as to physical assistance - I think it would be wrong to force an unqualified person to follow phone instructions to carry out first aid, for example.
I personally think anyone with medical training, or anyone who is a first aider should be required to help.
Too many people these days have a "I don't want to get involved" mentality. Shame on them.
ScaredWebWarrior
14-03-2006, 11:02
I personally think anyone with medical training, or anyone who is a first aider should be required to help.Of course. But it should be people with current qualifications. Not 'medical students' (chocolate teapots in an emergency) or anyone whose first aid has lapsed.
The problem for first aiders is that there are many who have never had to deal with a major incident. The first time they do, what if they lack the self-confidence to do everything their training has covered? Should they be punished for that?
I've dealt with some serious injuries, but I've only ever done CPR on Resus Annie. I'm sure if required to do so for real, I will, but be sure I'll be scared as hell!
All the more reason for CPR and basic first aid training to be compulsary at school and at least basic life support at work, I feel.
etccarmageddon
14-03-2006, 11:50
yeah but unless you practise/refresh regularly, it'll be forgotten?
MovedGoalPosts
14-03-2006, 12:36
I don't think you can force anyone to help, even those with training. that removes the judgement call anyone shoudl be free to make as to whether they are actually capable of helping, and more to the point if it is within their expertise and safe to do so. However one should question why bother doing a first aid course if you aren't rpepared to get involved.
When the wheel comes off training is the key. If you have been trained well, however serious the incident, the training gives you the confidence to act. That's why refesher skills are so vital, it reinforces what you already know. Having been there and done it (unconcious drunk bloke in the street, fatal cyclist, and lesser things) I find it's the stuff you didn't think you'd remember that just comes out.
The other aspect of training is that techniques change, maybe not significantly, but little differences can be important for example the last course I did removed a pulse check by trying to feel for it since in the heat of the moment it's often got wrong. the prefered technique was to look at the persons colour (blue lips - no circulation).
And in the new guidelines the intial rescue breaths have been removed for adults. You just open the airway and commence CPR (30 compressions), then two rescue breaths and another 30 compressions and so on...adn the usual checking for response and call for help etc...
MovedGoalPosts
14-03-2006, 13:51
30 compressions - that must have changed too - used to be 2 breaths to 15 compressions :erm:
......... the prefered technique was to look at the persons colour (blue lips - no circulation).
I thought capillary refill was the latest method of determining circulation :erm:
My better half has just completed a full First Aid course and she was told in no uncertain terms that whilst life saving techniques were allowed (CPR, bandage wounds, etc.) minor support such as applying plasters, administering drugs or inhalers was a definite no, no. :rolleyes:
ScaredWebWarrior
14-03-2006, 14:11
30 compressions - that must have changed too - used to be 2 breaths to 15 compressions :erm:Really makes you feel confident when the First Aid being taught is constantly different to what you learnt. lol.
It must be time for that refresher course.
---------- Post added at 14:11 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------
My better half has just completed a full First Aid course and she was told in no uncertain terms that whilst life saving techniques were allowed (CPR, bandage wounds, etc.) minor support such as applying plasters, administering drugs or inhalers was a definite no, no. :rolleyes:Is it any wonder that people would rather cross the street and walk on by. For now that is the only thing you can't get sued for!
But wo betide should you try to help - because if it wasn't good enough you'll get sued!
Who was the moron that opened this pandora's box anyway?
MovedGoalPosts
14-03-2006, 14:34
Many First Aid courses are divided into modules, for example Primary Care - the CPR type stuff, and Secondary care, bandaging etc. A true first aid course will not deal with administration of any drugs, even an aspirin. That has nothing to do with first aid and indeed painkiller type stuff shouldn't even be in a first aid kit.
For all those who say walk on by and don't get involved for fear of being sued just think - if a person has stopped breathing, they are dead. You cannot make things worse at that point, so what are the risks of being sued if you aren't succesful in helping?
Too many people these days have a "I don't want to get involved" mentality. Shame on them.
And too many people have the
"you picked my skin i shall file a lawsuit" mentality.
......... the prefered technique was to look at the persons colour (blue lips - no circulation).
I thought capillary refill was the latest method of determining circulation
My better half has just completed a full First Aid course and she was told in no uncertain terms that whilst life saving techniques were allowed (CPR, bandage wounds, etc.) minor support such as applying plasters, administering drugs or inhalers was a definite no, no.
__________________
Blue lips (cyanosis) is not a reliable way of determining circulation. It's main help is that it indicates a low level of oxygen circulating in the blood. You can have a normal circulation (usually with a tachycardia) and bilateral pneumothoraces, in other words the lungs may have collapsed and will not oxygenate the blood properly.... and the circulation will continue.....not for long though....You would use cap refil in conjunction with pulse checking and assessing colour to ascertain circulation....and looking for visual blood loss of course...
greencreeper
14-03-2006, 18:41
It was 15/2 when I did the training years ago. I don't think it matters so long as you're having an effect and the technique is correct. I contacted St. John's to refresh my skills and they sent out information on first aid at work. So I phoned them back and told them. Only place I could do the course was Barnsley starting at 09:00. Just not possible for me. So I left it. All the local colleges do their own version of first aid rather than a recognised course.
My mate is pulseless. Radial and carotid - neither are there. Occasionally you'll maybe get a couple of faint beats in his wrist, then nothing. Tis weird. He's alive. I think :erm:
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