View Full Version : Why no solar power in florida?
driver_problems
16-02-2006, 14:09
I was in florida, USA a while back and as you are probably aware it is nearly always sunny there. What struck me as strange as why there weren't any solar panels anywhere - you would have thought that this would be the ideal place to have them but I can't recall seeing any anywhere. Maybe its just that they have cheap fuel so can't be ar$ed with any of that kind of stuff
ScaredWebWarrior
16-02-2006, 14:10
What struck me as strange as why there weren't any solar panels anywhere...Maybe they were well hidden?
driver_problems
16-02-2006, 14:11
Maybe they were well hidden?
a possibility I suppose
I know that NASA use evacuated tube collectors. The company I work for supplied them.
I was in florida, USA a while back and as you are probably aware it is nearly always sunny there. What struck me as strange as why there weren't any solar panels anywhere - you would have thought that this would be the ideal place to have them but I can't recall seeing any anywhere. Maybe its just that they have cheap fuel so can't be ar$ed with any of that kind of stuff
The US is 'addicted' to oil, according to Gee-Dubya (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4669260.stm).
And it seems the University of Central Florida agrees with you. This (http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/Executive_Summary.pdf) is pretty damning reading.
I know that NASA use evacuated tube collectors. The company I work for supplied them.
And we also supplied the Pentagon, but thats not in Florida...
I was in florida, USA a while back and as you are probably aware it is nearly always sunny there. What struck me as strange as why there weren't any solar panels anywhere - you would have thought that this would be the ideal place to have them but I can't recall seeing any anywhere. Maybe its just that they have cheap fuel so can't be ar$ed with any of that kind of stuff
might be the cost per panel. Whilst i was there I did see some solar panels on new builds in Davenport but these where used for pool heating only
might be the cost per panel. Whilst i was there I did see some solar panels on new builds in Davenport but these where used for pool heating only
Thats what a lot of them are used for. Most of our products are used for Hot Water supply - swimming pools, space heating or air conditioning.
UncleBooBoo
16-02-2006, 16:06
And we also supplied the Pentagon, but thats not in Florida...
Ahhh yes but they only use them to deflect the sunlight into the eye's of terrorists in order to blind them so they don't get a bull's eye when trying to crash their plans into it! :D
Solar power is used in Florida. Some of the signs that have a flashing amber (warning light) are solar powered, if they are in a good position. 'Solar power' also heats some pools (its just channels of water running over your roof in black pipes) does sod all good except in height of summer. Some peoples external lights run on solar power too.
The reason why solar power isn't widely used, is because its ridiculously expensive, produces an extremely inefficient, low electricity yield, and is very susceptible to damage. Not just in hurricanes by generally. Also, being on your roof, will make it very hard & expensive to clean (especially as its glass so you can't lie on it), so it won't be long before it gets dirty and produces an even lower yield.
I agree (well, everyone does, even Dubya) that we should move away from oil, but solar is a complete non-starter.
I agree (well, everyone does, even Dubya) that we should move away from oil, but solar is a complete non-starter.
Heh, what made you come to that conclusion?
There are whole power plants that produce electricity, soley using energy from the sun.
Also - we should take advantage of the heat the sun inputs into our land, extensive piping throughout a garden can allow a heating system to operate throughout the year.
I think solar energy has huge potential.
But in this case - I'd say mixture of cost due to low demand, and damage from the storms they have there.
They can make self cleaning glass now can't they?
There are whole power plants that produce electricity, soley using energy from the sun.
Well that's news to me. It just seems so impractical, that I don't even think its worth trying to refine & improve it. Yeah, using the sun for heat isn't bad... But using solar to convert to pure electricity on a mass scale seems a bad idea.
Well that's news to me. It just seems so impractical, that I don't even think its worth trying to refine & improve it. Yeah, using the sun for heat isn't bad... But using solar to convert to pure electricity on a mass scale seems a bad idea.
I'll try and find a link, saw it in a biology video a while back, I think they used reflectors onto pipes containing a thick liquid that heated water to produce steam, hence power.
http://www.eng.fsu.edu/~shih/succeed-2000/roadmap/solar%20power%20plant.htm
does sod all good except in height of summer.
Complete rubbish. We have our products in countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway. We also have installations in Alaska. They all work year round.
Our collectors absorb solar radiation, even the diffused radiation in cloudy conditions. They don't need direct sunlight and because they are evacuated they are almost unaffected by outside temperature or weather conditions.
Complete rubbish. We have our products in countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway. We also have installations in Alaska. They all work year round.
No, trust me.... My father runs a property management company out there :)
The maximum it will raise is only a bout 6-10 degrees, which is in summer, and in winter its much less. He always gets calls complaining about the pools being unheated when they told its solar. He gets enough complaints about electric too, because they work as heat exchangers (like reverse air conditioning units), as opposed to the electric imersion heaters that everyone assumes. They are next to useless in winter as well.
I'd be interested to know how well your products work in Norway, considering the country is under snow most of the winter, and being as its so far north much less sun during the day.
No, trust me.... My father runs a property management company out there :)
The maximum it will raise is only a bout 6-10 degrees, which is in summer, and in winter its much less.
No Trust me.
Are those systems he has evacuated?
Questions and Answers:
How efficient is the Thermomax Solar Collector?
Thermomax Collectors have been tested at 86.9% maximum efficiency. On average, 65% of available solar energy is delivered as useable heat. Even on a winters day Thermomax can heat water to 80C or 176F. A hot shower, by comparison, is only 105F
How much hot water will Thermomax supply?
Thermomax systems are capable of producing 100% of your hot water requirements on an annual basis. A low-cost Thermomax system would supply 100% of your hot water during the summer months and a significant proportion during the winter.
http://www.solarcrest.ca/userimages/secondarynav_42f3ccc30234b_tmaxqa.pdf
I wouldn't know if the system is evacuated, but you are talking about a different system. I'm talking about solar pool heat, where the water is emptied from the heating tubes straight into the pool where heat is lost. Its nothing to do with that system, although I think the estimates are dubious to say the least, but i'll reserve judgement.
I know what the company brochures say, and I think i'll take practical, real world experience over company PR rubbish. Every brochure will make their products look, but I know how they compare to their brochures.
They are free to run, but as an effective heating solution, in the real world they don't really work. If they did... why do so many homes in Florida rely on the much, much more expensive solution that is electric pool heat, when solar would supposedly heat higher than electric? (Electric P/H works on ambient air temperature so its easy to get that summer, but in winter struggles to get over 72f degrees. Thats fahrenheit and not celcius. Quite a few homes even electric & solar pool heat - why the need if the results of solar are so terrific?
As for your stats, look at these, which I think are more reasonable:
http://www.powermat.com/cdgraf4.jpghttp://www.powermat.com/ (notice that is peak temperature and not an average over a day. As soon as the cover comes off and kids splash in the pool, the heat drops very quickly).
You can stick by your corporate pamphlets but I have real world experience of them. In winter, with a solar blanket (which I can assure you is very heavy and unwieldy to keep replacing), the average temperature will barely exceed 70f, which isn't that comfortable. They are normally set to 85f if the pool heater will cope with it.
Downloads
17-02-2006, 11:20
I'd be interested to know how well your products work in Norway, considering the country is under snow most of the winter, and being as its so far north much less sun during the day.
Sorry but he's right, you don't need direct sunlight to produce a decent amount of electricity, the only thing stopping it in this county is the cost involved in sticking a panel on your house, it takes something stupid like 10years+ to recover your costs. That's fine if you arn't planning on moving house ever.
I can't remember that village in this County (sure a quick google will reveal it) where the Green Party funded/part funded panels for many people, but from what i could tell the residents where impressed with the amount of electricity produced even though they barely ever had sun!
Note: If anyone has used any bad language can it be removed because my work's filter has blocked this thread due to number of questionable words. Thanks!
I can't remember that village in this County (sure a quick google will reveal it) where the Green Party funded/part funded panels for many people, but from what i could tell the residents where impressed with the amount of electricity produced even though they barely ever had sun!
But I am talking about solar pool heating in Florida?
Its a bit different converting & storing it, compared to a system where the heating is constantly fighting heat loss over a 15' x 30' pool.
But I am talking about solar pool heating in Florida?
Its a bit different converting & storing it, compared to a system where the heating is constantly fighting heat loss over a 15' x 30' pool.
I see what you mean with solar alone not being sufficient. What are the savings of using solar plus electric over just electric though?
Is solar still a 'non-starter' when used to cut the amount of electric heating required?
But I am talking about solar pool heating in Florida?
Exactly. You are trying to answer a very broad question (why no solar power in Florida) with a very narrow example. I do not know what kind of solar systems are used to heat pools but they are clearly not the sort that are used to heat homes in Scandinavia. No amount of 'PR rubbish' could account for the vast difference in statistics being quoted in this thread. It is blatantly obvious that you wouldn't put a fully-featured solar thermal heating system on a swimming pool. They are designed to heat domestic hot water and are way over-specified for the task, as well as too expensive.
The broad question being asked here is why solar thermal and solar electric is not more widely used in what is supposed to be the Sunshine State. The answer, according to the University of Central Florida (which I linked to in post #2) is short-term thinking and a lack of co-ordinated energy policy on the part of the State government. Not 'the technology is crap'. Because it isn't.
I know what the company brochures say, and I think i'll take practical, real world experience over company PR rubbish.
Backed up by independant tests.
Thermomax collectors are tested by European and North American authorities. The test results of Institute SPF at the Hochschul Rapperswil of Switzerland leads to following thermal performance equations (Test Report No. 264, August 1997):
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2006/02/5.gif
Tests conducted by Florida Solar Energy Center of USA (FSEC Solar Collector Test Report No. 97005, May 1998) is in very good agreement with the performance test reported by SPF Institute:
I see what you mean with solar alone not being sufficient. What are the savings of using solar plus electric over just electric though?
Is solar still a 'non-starter' when used to cut the amount of electric heating required?
Start up costs, Solar is a bit cheaper. A couple of thousand dollars (I think) for install, and free to run, as it runs off the pool filtration pump (with repairs being reasonably cheap, its just black plastic rubing). Electric pool heaters start in the $3000, and that's a small one. When they go wrong, which they do frequently, repairs are higher than solar. If they are running at full moo (like they do in winter - they only heat when needed, so in summer its cheap), but in winter electric costs $50-70+ per week to run. There is also gas which is like our central heating. It will heat the pool, regardless of ambient temperature or weather to whatever temperature you like. It is extremely expensive. Its $5000+ for the boiler, and $100+ per week to run. Also, not many homes are plumbed into the gas mains like here, so you have to factor in the cost of changing bottles.
Exactly. You are trying to answer a very broad question (why no solar power in Florida) with a very narrow example.
No i'm not. Driver_problems said "Why is there no solar power in Florida". I said... "There is, in state warning lights, pool heating and homes' external lighting." Solar pool heating is fairly common. I am not saying because solar pool heating is useless that all solar heating is useless, but that solar pool heating in Florida is useless.
Everyone else is taking my quote completely out of context.
'Solar power' also heats some pools (its just channels of water running over your roof in black pipes) does sod all good except in height of summer. That provides no provision for anything that anyone else has brought up. Suddenly my comment (from experience, which I can prove if you look at my IPs last december.) has been twisted to fit every kind solar heating ever created. Notice my inverted commas around 'solar power' as it doesn't involve any solar panels nor conversion, its just black plastic that warms in the sun.
Everyone else is taking my quote completely out of context.
That provides no provision for anything that anyone else has brought up. Suddenly my comment (from experience, which I can prove if you look at my IPs last decemeber.) has been twisted to fit every kind solar heating ever created. Notice my inverted commas around 'solar power' as it doesn't involve any solar panels nor conversion, its just black plastic that warms in the sun.
I think you were taking yourself out of context though. You didn't just slate solar pool heating, you went on to question Gazzae's stats apparently by comparing his claims with your dad's experience of solar pool heating, and then stating that if it was no good in Florida it couldn't possibly be any use in a Scandinavian winter. But these are completely different technologies so the comparison isn't valid.
I think you were taking yourself out of context though. You didn't just slate solar pool heating, you went on to question Gazzae's stats apparently by comparing his claims with your dad's experience of solar pool heating, and then stating that if it was no good in Florida it couldn't possibly be any use in a Scandinavian winter. But these are completely different technologies so the comparison isn't valid.
Gazzae countered my claims that solar pool heating in Florida is useless by refering to an entirely different system. He only made this clear 2 posts on.
Solar heating your shower water is completely different from solar heating your pool water. The water is always warm when it comes out the roof tubes but in a shower it hits your skin straight away. In a pool, it sits there and dissipates into the cool air, as heat rises. In a home water heater senario, the water is stored in an insultating tank preventing heat loss, you can't do this with a pool. Therefore the results will be different.
Punky, If you want I can pass on our American distributors details to you for your dad, if he's serious about getting solar power for pool heating. A lot of resorts in Europe use our product for just that.
Punky, If you want I can pass on our American distributors details to you for your dad, if he's serious about getting solar power for pool heating. A lot of resorts in Europe use our product for just that.
I tell you what. If you can heat a pool to hotter than you take a shower like that company claims, then tell your company to market this solution in Florida and they'll make a bloody fortune. However I find it odd that all pool companies use the same solar pool heating solution, which produces about the same results, when someone somewhere else had a much more impressive solution.
Heating a 15'x30' outdoor pool is completely different heating your tap water.
I tell you what. If you can heat a pool to hotter than you take a shower like that company claims, then tell your company to market this solution in Florida and they'll make a bloody fortune. However I find it odd that all pool companies use the say solar pool heating solution, which produces about the same results, when someone somewhere else had a much more impressive solution.
Heating a 15'x30' outdoor pool is completely different heating your tap water.
The new five-star Bay Point Hotel has commissioned a Thermomax 1440-tube unit today. The system aimed at providing 80% of the hot water needed for the 520 room complex. In addition, the Mellieha Danish Village Holiday Center has ordered a 990-tube Thermomax system to heat water for the hotel's Olympic-size swimming pool and all public areas, with plans to extend the system to cover all of its 150 bungalows.
http://thermomax.com/news.htm
homealone
17-02-2006, 12:22
One thing that surprised me, was reading about how photo-voltaic solar panels are more efficient at lower temperatures. This apparently helps to offset the effect of variable day length in e.g. Scandinavian countries - although they obviously can't cope all year round. Many panels now also have coatings which make them 'self cleaning', so the efficiency can be maintained, even if the panels are in hard to access places.
Panels using Germanium instead of Silicon, are also more efficient.
- the biggest problem, as punky pointed out, is the initial cost, so people who have older, less efficient panels aren't likely to have an incentive to replace them
A five star hotel isn't the same as a a small house though. It neglects to say how much it cost, how much room it will take up, nor the system it will use. I'll be interested to see the results.
I think all solar pool heating in Florida is the same for a reason, its the best they can achieve given cost and size constraints.
That was just an example. If you check out some of our installation pictures at http://www.thermomax-group.com/references.htm you will notice houses with smaller systems used for Central heating, hot water production in the winter, and swimming pool heating in the summer. E.g...
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2006/02/9.jpg
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2006/02/10.jpg
But you are right, there was confusion earlier. The system Punky was discussing uses direct heat from the sun, whereas the product I was discussing uses solar radiation.
Thanx. I am no expert on solar heating, with the names and types of systems, but I do know what Florida pool, solar heated temperatures are compared to non-solar, and its really not impressive increase. If it were, then it would the most dominant over electric & gas, considering its cheaper to install and free to run.
Interesting though Florida, considering its called The Sunshine State, isn't the best place to site solar photoelectric panels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Us_pv_annual_may2004.jpg
stevedavid
25-06-2008, 09:50
Hi All,
You guys must be aware of generating electricity from the sun technology. The Solar Energy Department of the Florida know the ins and outs of the technology and has been researching for more over 30 years and most probably may find out the technology. What you all think??
================================================== =========
Steve
Florida Drug Rehab
Now, I've seen some spam in my time, but that takes the biscuit. :spin:
Now, I've seen some spam in my time, but that takes the biscuit. :spin:
Certainly does!!
Also, Punky, Norway has constant sunlight for the summer months, it never goes dark :p:
Incidentally, we've had our solar installation done now and on a sunny day between about April & September we can get hot water up to about 70 deg. c. in the cylinder. Even on a dull day it can ensure the cylinder temperature doesn't drop below about 40. We're very happy with it, especially as we live off-network for gas, so at this time of year, were it not for the solar panels, we'd be using an electric immersion heater for our water.
Incidentally, we've had our solar installation done now and on a sunny day between about April & September we can get hot water up to about 70 deg. c. in the cylinder. Even on a dull day it can ensure the cylinder temperature doesn't drop below about 40. We're very happy with it, especially as we live off-network for gas, so at this time of year, were it not for the solar panels, we'd be using an electric immersion heater for our water.
Out of interest: How long does it take to recover the initial investment?
Difficult to say - my very broad estimate is about 10 years. The system should last three times that though.
Vlad_Dracul
26-06-2008, 11:26
I was in florida, USA a while back and as you are probably aware it is nearly always sunny there. What struck me as strange as why there weren't any solar panels anywhere - you would have thought that this would be the ideal place to have them but I can't recall seeing any anywhere. Maybe its just that they have cheap fuel so can't be ar$ed with any of that kind of stuff
Easy..the US is so used to consuming that conservation just isnt in their dictionary. It soon will be though as they are continually screaming about the price of oil. Lord knowns what they will do when it finally runs out.
Wicked_and_Crazy
26-06-2008, 12:40
Certainly does!!
Also, Punky, Norway has constant sunlight for the summer months, it never goes dark :p:
Funilly enough its when Norway is dark that you need the energy ;)
I guess there must be a point when the lack of daylight hours makes it not worth using solar technology. I agree that in the summer you might not need much energy to supplement the solar
Funilly enough its when Norway is dark that you need the energy ;)
I guess there must be a point when the lack of daylight hours makes it not worth using solar technology. I agree that in the summer you might not need much energy to supplement the solar
Winter sucks, we just burn logs :p:
Winter sucks, we just burn logs :p:
We burn compressed wood pellets. Our carbon footprint is so small you can barely see it. :PP:
We burn compressed wood pellets. Our carbon footprint is so small you can barely see it. :PP:
We plant more trees than we use... Apparently. (No source to back it up other than a newspaper from months ago)
This morning, in overcast conditions, our solar panels were up to 31.1C and usefully contributing to the heat in the hot water cylinder (which can be 20C or cooler at the very bottom, where the solar heat exchanger is, even when it's +60C at the top).
Right now, the sun has come out, the panels are up to 70.2C and the bottom of the cylinder is at 57.8C. At this temperature, we can run a hot bath this evening and still have enough in the cylinder to provide usefully hot water throughout the day tomorrow, even if it's overcast again.
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