View Full Version : What happens when you die?
So what do you think happens when you die?
Just like people to post about what they think happens in those few moments it takes between life and death, and your views on what may happen afterwards.
As an Athiest I really dont believe in an afterlife, a lot of athiests I know say things like "I dont think there is a heaven but there must be something" I dont really agree with this, I dont think there has to be something, I kinda hope there is but I really cant imagine it, seems to go against everything I dont believe / Believe in.
Now the last few moments in life intrigue me, I wonder if you do see your entire life flash before your eyes? I really dont know what I believe, guess thats one of the biggest problems with not having a faith of sorts, the end for me is truley unknown, it does intrigue me though to hear other peoples views, maybe even get some ideas of my own.
Now I dont want this to turn into a flamewar (thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard, etc)
I just want constructive conversation, if there is something you dont like or understand about someones view try asking them to elaborate rather than smacking them down with goofy Smilies and lol's.
Oh and no short answers like "We goto Heaven" if thats all your gonna say then dont bother posting ;) :p now it would be interesting if you are going to say that if you could tell us what your view on heaven would be as im sure everyones view would be different (One mans Heaven is another mans Hell, etc)
Generally you get buried or cremated and that's the end of it. I don't, and never have, believed in anything more than this.
handyman
15-11-2003, 15:11
I don't belive in life after death, as for the life flashing before you, one would assume this is the last throws of your brain as it runs out of oxygen. I would imagine that this would create al sorts of dilusional images and what not.
Having had a near death experience a couple of years ago (car crash) I'm sorry to say I had no life flashing before my eyes etc nor did I feel frightend. I was aware of what was happening but had I kicked the bucket I firmly believe I wouldn't have known anything about it.
this is a fantastic topic, and one that i have studied in a philosophical sense.....i spent a year doing a course called "matters of life and death" very interesting stuff...
ok.....as for the thing that happens a moment before death, i do not know, i think that as hm said the lack of oxygen can cause you to have images and thoughts which you could perceive to be real but aren't
as for life after death, i believe in heaven....i do not know what heaven is like, but i know that i will come face to face with Jesus....i don't think of heaven as a place in the clouds, with angels with harps and such forth, but i do think that it will be a place of peace and glory
hell: ok my physics teacher once described hell in a very interesting way....his idea was that hell is continually living your life over and over again, making all the same mistakes and never being able to change them
ian@huth
15-11-2003, 16:00
Can there really be a near death experience? You can either be dead or alive and if you're dead you cannot tell others about it, unless there is something after death.
How does the brain store information? Is it stored in electrical form or chemical form or a combination of the two? Does the stored information vanish when you die or does it remain? Could a brain be transplanted and if so whose memory would it have?
as for life after death, i believe in heaven....i do not know what heaven is like, but i know that i will come face to face with Jesus....i don't think of heaven as a place in the clouds, with angels with harps and such forth, but i do think that it will be a place of peace and gloryHow do you know this, what proof or evidence do you have ?
Can there really be a near death experience? You can either be dead or alive and if you're dead you cannot tell others about it, unless there is something after death.
How does the brain store information? Is it stored in electrical form or chemical form or a combination of the two? Does the stored information vanish when you die or does it remain? Could a brain be transplanted and if so whose memory would it have?
ok that depends on what your view is on the mind/body problem
materalism = the mind is something chemical......it is just impulses etc
dualism = mind and body are two disctinct entities, the mind is non-material, non-spatial, non-dividable, whereas the body is material, spatial and divisable
epi-phenominonalism = the mind and body are different entities but they are conencted normally this connection is ascribed to the amagadala )or something)
why am i saying this? no its not to show of, if one believes in either of the top two it will effect how one sees the afterlife
How do you know this, what proof or evidence do you have ?
i believe in God, i believe in jesus, i believe that the bible is the "breathed word of God"
Hell = a lifetime of listening to Celine Dion :eek:
Actually I'd just consider hell to be an eternity without Big G.
And as been stated many times before, us Jesus-freaks don't need evidence or proof :)
It would be typical if nothing happened when you die
and all the arguing about it was just wishful thinking
still, you never really know
dilli-theclaw
15-11-2003, 16:27
I haven't got a clue either way - but it would be nive to meet my mum and my 1st son again.
But I can't choose to believe in something just for my own gratification.
I don't think I've really thought about it a lot.
i believe in God, i believe in jesus, i believe that the bible is the "breathed word of God"That's certainly an awful lot to believe in without any actual evidence to back it up.
Just in case you are wondering, I'm not going to say you are right or wrong, but I certainly don't believe in any of them as no one has offered me proof, or even evidence.
Even evidence is not always proof - Children believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus because all the evidence seems to suggest to them that they exist - but of course, this evidence is not really proof.
<snip>Actually I'd just consider hell to be an eternity without Big G.
And as been stated many times before, us Jesus-freaks don't need evidence or proof :)
that indeed would be hell :(
Having watched the Core on DVD last night - I don't think Hell exists as on the way to the centre of the earth they didn't pass any folk with red pointy horns and pitchforks. Therefore based on this evidence and the fact that the space shuttle has been around abit and never spotted the pearly gates. I think it's just over and out - Ya dead.
In a previous life I was a believer in the afterlife though!
That's certainly an awful lot to believe in without any actual evidence to back it up.
Just in case you are wondering, I'm not going to say you are right or wrong, but I certainly don't believe in any of them as no one has offered me proof, or even evidence.
Even evidence is not always proof - Children believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus because all the evidence seems to suggest to them that they exist - but of course, this evidence is not really proof.
right ok i can totally see where you are coming from, not only did i used to think i needed pure and utter fact before i would believe in anything, i have also spoken to many people
you may think i am a bit :dunce: to believe in something which i can not see in front of me, but i have experienced God's presence, His peace and His power
i can not prove to you that God exists in the sense that you want it to be proven to you but i can lie out why i believe he exists, but since this is not a thread dedicated to that (and i dont want to be accused of tkaing over the thread) but as im sure most people know you are always welcome to discuss it with myself, and im sure russ and towny would not mind either
homealone
15-11-2003, 16:35
ok that depends on what your view is on the mind/body problem
materalism = the mind is something chemical......it is just impulses etc
dualism = mind and body are two disctinct entities, the mind is non-material, non-spatial, non-dividable, whereas the body is material, spatial and divisable
epi-phenominonalism = the mind and body are different entities but they are conencted normally this connection is ascribed to the amagadala )or something)
why am i saying this? no its not to show of, if one believes in either of the top two it will effect how one sees the afterlife
Hi Bexy
it's amygdala
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=amygdala&spell=1
- and that's not intended to correct you, I just found it interesting (as was your post):)
Personally I would like to believe in the dualism theory - the materialism one smacks too much of us being governed by instinct only, for me, and I prefer to think our consciousness is more than that.
- I also like to think that something of that conciousness survives beyond death, but as to what "happens" to it, is another story. The Buddist theory of karma & re-incarnation is interesting, for example - but that isn't to say it's the "correct" one - we simply don't know.
Rubber Duck
15-11-2003, 16:36
That's certainly an awful lot to believe in without any actual evidence to back it up.
Just in case you are wondering, I'm not going to say you are right or wrong, but I certainly don't believe in any of them as no one has offered me proof, or even evidence.
Even evidence is not always proof - Children believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus because all the evidence seems to suggest to them that they exist - but of course, this evidence is not really proof.
I think u just die & thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s it,. I donââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t believe it god or an afterlife. I agree it hard to believe in anything religious (especially those days with all the horrible things that happen in the world) but I do respect other peopleÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s beliefs
Having watched the Core on DVD last night - I don't think Hell exists as on the way to the centre of the earth they didn't pass any folk with red pointy horns and pitchforks. Therefore based on this evidence and the fact that the space shuttle has been around abit and never spotted the pearly gates. I think it's just over and out - Ya dead.
In a previous life I was a believer in the afterlife though!
the idea that heaven is up there and hell down there is afaik not biblical......it doesnt state where these places are, but people have come to illustrate it this way
Hi Bexy
it's amygdala
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=amygdala&spell=1
- and that's not intended to correct you, I just found it interesting (as was your post):)
Personally I would like to believe in the dualism theory - the materialism one smacks too much of us being governed by instinct only, for me, and I prefer to think our consciousness is more than that.
- I also like to think that something of that conciousness survives beyond death, but as to what "happens" to it, is another story. The Buddist theory of karma & re-incarnation is interesting, for example - but that isn't to say it's the "correct" one - we simply don't know.
gaz if you are interested in the theories i outlined and want to read up on them, pm me and i will point u in the direction of some good books
the idea that heaven is up there and hell down there is afaik not biblical......it doesnt state where these places are, but people have come to illustrate it this way
Agreed, except things associated with hell tend to indicate fire and warmth - I.e. closer to the core of the earth and on the same basis the higher you get the colder you become.
Well why not, we haven't had a thread on Christianity in ohhhh.....2 weeks? :D
So who wants to be this threads' first person to say religion causes wars??? :D :D
Interesting:
Performing a www.googlefight.com for heaven and hell
then HELL wins...
But the fight between god and satan is won by god...
Agreed, except things associated with hell tend to indicate fire and warmth - I.e. closer to the core of the earth and on the same basis the higher you get the colder you become.
but that is merely the imagery that is created to explain hell.......
it comes originally from the greek mythology of the underworld......hades etc
but that is merely the imagery that is created to explain hell.......
it comes originally from the greek mythology of the underworld......hades etc
Wasn't that a room in Jet Set Willy (now that was a game) :notopic: Sorry!
dilli-theclaw
15-11-2003, 16:57
Pretentious and inaccurate quote by Bexy
"epi-phenominonalism = the mind and body are different entities but they are conencted normally this connection is ascribed to the amagadala )or something)"
The accurate definition is:-
"The doctrine that mental activities are simply secondary occurances or facts that are directly perceptable by the senses, whether their underlying existance is proven or their natures understood, and are a result of the neural processes of the brain and have no causal influence"
Sorry Bexy but if you are out to impress then please get it right..
Never mind getting it right - can you please explain that to little thicky me - in ENGLISH :dunce:
Pretentious and inaccurate quote by Bexy
"epi-phenominonalism = the mind and body are different entities but they are conencted normally this connection is ascribed to the amagadala )or something)"
The accurate definition is:-
"The doctrine that mental activities are simply secondary occurances or facts that are directly perceptable by the senses, whether their underlying existance is proven or their natures understood, and are a result of the neural processes of the brain and have no causal influence"
Sorry Bexy but if you are out to impress then please get it right..
excuse me i wasnt out to impress.....wtf is wrong with people on this site at the moment?
that definition i gave was a very simplfied version of the theory......believe me mate ive been studying this stuff for about 5years
ian@huth
15-11-2003, 16:59
Is there life after death is something that you can neither prove or disprove. Because you cannot prove it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
It is a bit like "do you believe there are UFOs and aliens". There is no concrete evidence that these exist, but logical thinking says that they probably do exist. It is hard to believe that there is no other planet somewhere that has life similar to ours. If there is such another planet sustaining life then would that planet have our God?
That leads to another question. Who or what is God?
you may think i am a bit :dunce: to believe in something which i can not see in front of me, but i have experienced God's presence, His peace and His power
I don't think any such thing, everyone is entitled to believe in what they like as long as they don't expect me to believe the same.
Rubber Duck
15-11-2003, 17:10
you may think i am a bit :dunce: to believe in something which i can not see in front of me, but i have experienced God's presence, His peace and His power
When, how & where?????
I don't think any such thing, everyone is entitled to believe in what they like as long as they don't expect me to believe the same.
and i respect you not holding the same belief as me, as long as people are polite to each other and don't cuss each others beliefs then i have no problem
When, how & where?????
that is something i am not willing to go into on a public forum....sorry
Rubber Duck
15-11-2003, 17:28
that is something i am not willing to go into on a public forum....sorry
OK thatâ₠¬Ã‹Å“s fine. But if u don't want to go into it here why say u have felt gods strength in the first place if u are not willing to back your statement up by telling us none believers the positive ways god has affected your life??
OK that‘s fine. But if u don't want to go into it here why say u have felt gods strength in the first place if u are not willing to back your statement up by telling us none believers the positive ways god has affected your life??
i was sim0ply illustrating that i can not prove to you that God exists or that i have actual facts but i have felt Gods presence.........the reason i will not post it here is because some people on this forum have made it clear that they like nothing more than to pick apart other peoples lives and beliefs and i am not willing to let people do that in this occasion
thanks for that drudge, but how dare you......
i was asked my opinon and i stated it, i have never said that someone who does not believe as i do is irrational.....
if you dont like what i believe then ignore it, there is no reason for you to do such things
i am entitled to believe what i believe without being ridiculed for it..
i was sim0ply illustrating that i can not prove to you that God exists or that i have actual facts but i have felt Gods presence
Can you prove to yourself or anyone else that "Gods presence" wasn't a trick of the mind? I think the answer is no.
Rubber Duck
15-11-2003, 19:03
thanks for that drudge, but how dare you......
What do u mean †œHow dare youââ‚ ¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ to Drudge. Does this mean that in your opinion that people are not entitled to write what they think on the forum if it differs from YOUR thoughts? You do not have the authority to say such things.
Can you prove to yourself or anyone else that "Gods presence" wasn't a trick of the mind? I think the answer is no.
Personally I don't think a 'trick of the mind' exsists. My view is the experiences I have had with God were very real. He's communicated with me and I know it has only come from Him. Remember there is no requirement for us to prove anything to anyone. This defines 'faith'.
What do u mean †œHow dare youââ‚ ¬Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ to Drudge. Does this mean that in your opinion that people are not entitled to write what they think on the forum if it differs from YOUR thoughts? You do not have the authority to say such things.
I think Bexy was just a little tired at the reasoning that Drudge came out with which to me shows someone (probably not Drudge) has gone to some lengths to show a theory which displays horrendous lack of knowledge and research.
I strongly object to the "Probably not Drudge".
I apologise for any offense caused, it certainly wasn't intended. It's just I did not want to make it look as if I was singling you out.
I am now 64 years of age and have spent many years in degree and ABOVE education.
A mature and educated debate is always welcome :)
I am quite capable of decrying "fairy stories" without resort to extraneous sources.
And I strongly object to you referring to my faith as a 'fairy story'. You are entitled to believe whatever you see fit but common decency dictates you respect the beliefs of others.
It is not acceptable in educated circles to merely state "A horrendous lack of knowledge" without the evidence and arguements needed to back up such a statement.
Agreed, allow me to elaborate slightly. I made that comment as I could not understand how someone as intelligent as yourself would come out with points 6, 7, 10 and 11 in your post. After all, I'm assuming you've researched the Bible on why there is evil in the world.
And I'm honoured that you see Nthellworld as an 'educated circle' - we've never been referred to in that way before :)
Personally I don't think a 'trick of the mind' exsists. My view is the experiences I have had with God were very real. He's communicated with me and I know it has only come from Him. Remember there is no requirement for us to prove anything to anyone. This defines 'faith'.
Likewise.
If you die knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you will resurrect with his return and enter Heaven. If you're alive at that time, you will disappear too. Then starts the 7 years of Tribulation.
If you die not knowing Jesus Christ, you will be resurrected at Judgment Day, when the rest of the people, even those that came to know Jesus during the Tribulation, will appear before God. If your name is not in the Book of Life, you will be cast into Hell forever.
You want proof? I think we will see proof in our lifetime. Laugh at me now, but when the Tribulation comes (thousands of people disappearing would be a sign), remember what I wrote here.
An excellent series of books to read is Left Behind.
Yes, the Left Behind books are incredible. Numerous best sellers and more than 50 million sold in series :)
I reckon that humans can believe
just about anything
Yes, the Left Behind books are incredible. Numerous best sellers and more than 50 million sold in series :)
:D awesome books....
Personally I don't think a 'trick of the mind' exsists. My view is the experiences I have had with God were very real.
As I'm fairly confident that like even the greatest mind's in this world you do not have full working knowledge of how the brain function's in it's entirety then that's what it will remain "you don't think" it exists. You can also only realistically say that you "believe" God exists, you cannot 100% categorically say that he(she) does, however, I'm sure the bible stresses that you not deny God's existance. I believe in God (in some form or another, I'm not quite sure what) but that's all it is, belief, I cannot state outright that there is some all powerful being watching over us.
some of the ancient scholars
thought that god was 'unknowable'
ie - was not possible to get your head round it all
As I'm fairly confident that like even the greatest mind's in this world you do not have full working knowledge of how the brain function's in it's entirety then that's what it will remain "you don't think" it exists. You can also only realistically say that you "believe" God exists, you cannot 100% categorically say that he(she) does, however, I'm sure the bible stresses that you not deny God's existance. I believe in God (in some form or another, I'm not quite sure what) but that's all it is, belief, I cannot state outright that there is some all powerful being watching over us.
You are absolutely right. I cannot say He DOES exist and have never done so. What I HAVE said is that I believe He's there, I have faith. Again you correctly say we don't know how the mind works but in my mind (pardon the pun) God uses all kinds of ways to communicate. It would be human to expect Him to do it only vocally but then again, He is more than just a human.
Logical, intelligent discussion now dies, (UN)common sense flies out of the window. It is time to leave as no further discussion is possible against such strange, primitive beliefs
So because what Jerrek (and others) believe is not concurrant with how you see the world, it is any less valid? If you chose to leave this discussion it would indeed be a shame as you appeared to have the potential to bring some interesting angles to the table however if you are only willing to listen to and acknowledge one version then perhaps you have made the right decision.
So because what Jerrek (and others) believe is not concurrant with how you see the world, it is any less valid? If you chose to leave this discussion it would indeed be a shame as you appeared to have the potential to bring some interesting angles to the table however if you are only willing to listen to and acknowledge one version then perhaps you have made the right decision.
I think the problem with Jerreks post is that he says it so 'Matter of Factly' theres no IMO or I believe in his post (Appologies if there are Jerrek ;) )
I do like some of the comments so far, Glad to see im not the only Athiest who doesnt see some light at the end of the tunnel. A Pitty some peoples minds are allready so set in stone though, you dont neccessarily need a yes/no answer, there is a whole Grey area in the middle.
Personally I don't think a 'trick of the mind' exsists. My view is the experiences I have had with God were very real. He's communicated with me and I know it has only come from Him. Remember there is no requirement for us to prove anything to anyone. This defines 'faith'.
I do believe in things such as a trick of the mind (You get drunk right now and tell me your mind doesnt play tricks on you then ;) )
Not to disprove you in anyway, as you said this defines your faith, the possibility always exists though that this was simply a trick of your mind (One of many possibilities including the one you believe)
I would like if anyone is willing to post, some of your own Deffinitions of Heaven :angel: and some of your own deffinitions of hell :batty: (Or any alternatives you may have)
As said earlier I do not personally believe in an afterlife but I have been thinking about this all day. Your Brain uses Chemical electricity to work doesnt it? (I may be completeley wrong here) this energy has to go somewhere so what happens to the energy when you die? is it simply released? is it released containing your essence where you wonder the earth as a ghost or move onto an afterlife? does this energy exist on a higher plane? (Not like afterlife, more of a higher level of existance that does not require the presence of an omnipotent being)
So many questions and so few answers, as said previously we will not know until we die, though not to mock the Christians here I do find Judgement day one of the least likley possibilities, I just dont buy into this whole 'gods coming to get ya' motif it has (Wont the egg be on my Face if it happens :D )
How about What if?
What will you guys do if you suddenly find millions of people missing? (Pulled away by Jesus) Would you believe? Would you grab a Bible and start reading?
Those seven years are not going to be a whole lot of fun.
How about What if?
What will you guys do if you suddenly find millions of people missing? (Pulled away by Jesus) Would you believe? Would you grab a Bible and start reading?
Those seven years are not going to be a whole lot of fun.
In all honesty? I'd hope I had a chance to punch god up the bracket and be grateful that I'm not one of those to be picked for resurrection
In all honesty? I'd hope I had a chance to punch god up the bracket and be grateful that I'm not one of those to be picked for resurrection
I overheard a teenager arguing with her father about church
and stuff a while back
"I don't want eternal life", she said "I'm bored enough as it is"
In all honesty? I'd hope I had a chance to punch god up the bracket and be grateful that I'm not one of those to be picked for resurrection
why?
why?
Because if the bible is to be believed he is a genocidal tyrant.
Remember Bex, I'm not a christian, so I can't ignore the awful things that the bible says he has done (and I'm not getting confused with things done in his name, those were done by idiots who were just human).
"Live my way or die" that's basically what the bible says.
I guess a simplified view would be as Eddie Izzard put it, death or cake, and I can't agree with that.
Because if the bible is to be believed he is a genocidal tyrant.
Remember Bex, I'm not a christian, so I can't ignore the awful things that the bible says he has done (and I'm not getting confused with things done in his name, those were done by idiots who were just human).
"Live my way or die" that's basically what the bible says.
I guess a simplified view would be as Eddie Izzard put it, death or cake, and I can't agree with that.
thats fair enough i respect your view...i wasnt asking you to repsond in a christian way hun, i just wondered why...i am not going to say whether you are right or wrong, at the end of the day it is your belief.........
has anyone ever heard of pascal's wager? he basically says that if we believe in God and he doesnt exist then we don't lose anything, and if we believe in him and he does we gain
if we don't believe and he does exist then we lose out
therefore, he concludes we should believe in god
personally i think this is a terrible basis for belief, but i thought i would throw it into the discussion
thats fair enough i respect your view...i wasnt asking you to repsond in a christian way hun, i just wondered why...i am not going to say whether you are right or wrong, at the end of the day it is your belief.........
has anyone ever heard of pascal's wager? he basically says that if we believe in God and he doesnt exist then we don't lose anything, and if we believe in him and he does we gain
if we don't believe and he does exist then we lose out
therefore, he concludes we should believe in god
personally i think this is a terrible basis for belief, but i thought i would throw it into the discussion
there shrodingers cat aswell
that's a conundrum
thats fair enough i respect your view...i wasnt asking you to repsond in a christian way hun, i just wondered why...i am not going to say whether you are right or wrong, at the end of the day it is your belief.........
has anyone ever heard of pascal's wager? he basically says that if we believe in God and he doesnt exist then we don't lose anything, and if we believe in him and he does we gain
if we don't believe and he does exist then we lose out
therefore, he concludes we should believe in god
personally i think this is a terrible basis for belief, but i thought i would throw it into the discussion
I know bex, and I'm not belittling you for your own beliefs, as an athiest it's important to me that people come to their own beliefs through their own research and path, and deserve respect for that.
I've heard of pascal's wager, and you're right, it does seem a daft basis for belief.
You would be believing for the sake of the prize, not for the sake of faith
there shrodingers cat aswell
that's a conundrum
care to elaborate?
I know bex, and I'm not belittling you for your own beliefs, as an athiest it's important to me that people come to their own beliefs through their own research and path, and deserve respect for that.
I've heard of pascal's wager, and you're right, it does seem a daft basis for belief.
You would be believing for the sake of the prize, not for the sake of faith
indeed, if one is accepting God because of the fact that they might just go to heaven they don't really believe..but then i should not judge
care to elaborate?
http://www.phobe.com/s_cat/s_cat.html
he used it as an example about quantum mechanics in a lecture
and was quizzed about it for the rest of his life
I don't think he kept an actual cat in real life though
Well, this may already have been posted (I got an error posting it).
We are all entitled to our beliefs.
I personally think that logic would suggest we were created by some force or being (I refuse to believe that this universe and those living within it were created by a set of coincidences), that being or force doesn't necessarily exist in any form we can measure or detect now.
As to what happens when we die, I don't know (and I don't think we will ever find conclusive evidence of what happens), but I would like to think there is an after life. I find it sort of comforting thinking that the people & pets I have known that have died have some sort of afterlife.
Well, this may already have been posted (I got an error posting it).
We are all entitled to our beliefs.
I personally think that logic would suggest we were created by some force or being (I refuse to believe that this universe and those living within it were created by a set of coincidences), that being or force doesn't necessarily exist in any form we can measure or detect now.
As to what happens when we die, I don't know (and I don't think we will ever find conclusive evidence of what happens), but I would like to think there is an after life. I find it sort of comforting thinking that the people & pets I have known that have died have some sort of afterlife.
I remember reading something about some guy who was held in some regard somewhere - can't remember who or where
but he seemed to think that the 'design' of a kidney indicated the presence of a god
such was the meticulous nature of its function
not sure what frey bentos and peter's pies thought about that
I personally think that logic would suggest we were created by some force or being (I refuse to believe that this universe and those living within it were created by a set of coincidences),
I dissagree, logic suggests we were created by a series of physical laws, ie this atom joins with that one and forms a molecule which joins with that other molecule and hey presto you get amonio acids, and then proteins and dns etc.
A force or being (other than nuclear forces :D ) are not required.
The example the JW's use to backup the "can't be coincidence" stance is a garden rake in a washing machine.
Removed the head from a garden rake, bung both parts in a washing machine and no matter what, that head isn't going to fix to the end of the shaft.
I pointed out that if the head and end of shaft were oppositly charged (such as the charge on ions) they'd quite happily fix together.
I remember reading something about some guy who was held in some regard somewhere - can't remember who or where
but he seemed to think that the 'design' of a kidney indicated the presence of a god
such was the meticulous nature of its function
not sure what frey bentos and peter's pies thought about that
similar to paley's watch analogy
I dissagree, logic suggests we were created by a series of physical laws, ie this atom joins with that one and forms a molecule which joins with that other molecule and hey presto you get amonio acids, and then proteins and dns etc.
A force or being (other than nuclear forces :D ) are not required.
Something defined the physical laws which make that happen.
I dissagree, logic suggests we were created by a series of physical laws, ie this atom joins with that one and forms a molecule which joins with that other molecule and hey presto you get amonio acids, and then proteins and dns etc.
A force or being (other than nuclear forces :D ) are not required.
The example the JW's use to backup the "can't be coincidence" stance is a garden rake in a washing machine.
Removed the head from a garden rake, bung both parts in a washing machine and no matter what, that head isn't going to fix to the end of the shaft.
I pointed out that if the head and end of shaft were oppositly charged (such as the charge on ions) they'd quite happily fix together.
:dunce: i don;t get the jw thing
:dunce: i don;t get the jw thing
Bexy, I think Xaccers is assuming both head and handle are metal. Therefore magnetism would attract them.
so what is the point of mankind?
why take the risk inventing 'it'
from the bible it seems that several attempts were made at it
each malfinctioning one being 'wiped out'
by this and that sort of disaster - apparently due to it not being able to tow the line
where is god's gain?
why not stick with rabbits and trees and stuff?
Something defined the physical laws which make that happen.
Did it?
Why did something have to conciously define the laws, why can't it be that the way the laws work are the only way they can work?
Bexy, I think Xaccers is assuming both head and handle are metal. Therefore magnetism would attract them.
Yup, like ions attract each other, hence why we have chemical reactions :)
idi banashapan
15-11-2003, 22:11
all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we are the imagination of ourselves.
Ahem!
Original: Something defined the physical laws which make that happen.
Edited to be PC: Something May have defined the physical laws which make that happen.
Please stop stating things like they are correct or fact when they clearly are not ;)
Things seem to happen in a chain reaction, It makes me think that only one Key event needed to happen for the universe as we know it to cascade out, so what you see as a series of highly inprobable coincidences is actually just one slightly more probably incident. A damn sight more believable IMO (I dont know what this action was but I believe 100% that this is how it happened).
Did it?
Why did something have to conciously define the laws, why can't it be that the way the laws work are the only way they can work?
Logic would suggest that something caused those laws to be created, even if they can only work in one way.
Thinking like this makes my head hurt... :(
Ahem!
Original: Something defined the physical laws which make that happen.
Edited to be PC: Something May have defined the physical laws which make that happen.
Please stop stating things like they are correct or fact when they clearly are not ;)
Things seem to happen in a chain reaction, It makes me think that only one Key event needed to happen for the universe as we know it to cascade out, so what you see as a series of highly inprobable coincidences is actually just one slightly more probably incident. A damn sight more believable IMO (I dont know what this action was but I believe 100% that this is how it happened).
some guy also reckoned space was 'curved'
and it was theoritically possible to see the other side of, say, a building if you approached it at the speed of light
which is all fair and good but no help telling it to an irate cmr on the line in a crappy call centre on low wages
Ahem!
Original: Something defined the physical laws which make that happen.
Edited to be PC: Something May have defined the physical laws which make that happen.
Please stop stating things like they are correct or fact when they clearly are not ;)
I am not stating it as fact, merely as logic. Everything has a start and an end (in theory anyway). Everything is also created (apart from energy which is merely converted from another form). Every effect has a cause.
I am not stating it as fact, merely as logic. Everything has a start and an end (in theory anyway). Everything is also created (apart from energy which is merely converted from another form). Every effect has a cause.
not strictly true
there is a symbol of a snake swallowing its own tail
as a sort of symbol of eternity
either that or ntl have a new staffing policy
not strictly true
there is a symbol of a snake swallowing its own tail
as a sort of symbol of eternity
either that or ntl have a new staffing policy
what?
not strictly true
there is a symbol of a snake swallowing its own tail
as a sort of symbol of eternity
either that or ntl have a new staffing policy
But the snake still has a start and an end.
But apart from that: Eh? What?
Is there a way to configure my profile to ignore posts from certain people? :rolleyes:
Is there a way to configure my profile to ignore posts from certain people? :rolleyes:
we can live in hope..that would be a grand idea actually :D:idea:
we can live in hope..that would be a grand idea actually :D:idea:
so you can hear only what you want to hear?
I was just illustrating where the infinity symbol came from
Click profile on the person you want to ignore then under contact details click add user to ignore list.....
But that really is just burrying your head in the sand.
My mum went to see a medium a few years after her dad died, she sat in this room not sure of what was to follow and not being a great believer in this life after death stuff. Mum never gave long answers it was either a yes or no response the medium was after. - Mum did not want to give anything away.
If there is no life after death, then I want to know how this lady managed to discuss really private information that only her and her dad were aware of, nothing written down, only in the heart. Mum felt the room go cold and this lady was just belting out loads of information that was so accurate that I believe my mother made contact with her dad.
dr p i am not saying anything about your belief in this
but mediums is something i am sceptical about
homealone
15-11-2003, 23:15
I am not stating it as fact, merely as logic. Everything has a start and an end (in theory anyway). Everything is also created (apart from energy which is merely converted from another form). Every effect has a cause.
have you been watching the 'Theory of Everything' series on Ch4?
The last episode in the series tomorrow 20.00 - clashes with Top Gear :mad:
- string theory is cool - one thought of mine is that theology could be "inside out", rather than "outside in" - i.e "God" is the concept of the ultimate organisation of the Universe, for example? - I mean how it's built, not who built it? - and I sincerely don't want to offend anyone by my speculative remark.
dr p i am not saying anything about your belief in this
but mediums is something i am sceptical about
I'm in the same boat bexy, I'm sceptical, but how did the medium know what she knew and able to pass this on to my mum ? The only way is if she connected to my grandad. Some say these mediums go about looking through peoples rubbish bins looking for clues or tricking people into telling them more for the medium to turn it around and say this this and this. But I repeat that nothing was ever written down, the information could of only been passed to my mum to validate that the medium was connected to my grandad.
My mum tried to get a second booking with this medium, but she is so busy, she was booked up for a whole year before she was taking any further bookings. :erm:
I'm in the same boat bexy, I'm sceptical, but how did the medium know what she knew and able to pass this on to my mum ? The only way is if she connected to my grandad. Some say these mediums go about looking through peoples rubbish bins looking for clues or tricking people into telling them more for the medium to turn it around and say this this and this. But I repeat that nothing was ever written down, the information could of only been passed to my mum to validate that the medium was connected to my grandad.
My mum tried to get a second booking with this medium, but she is so busy, she was booked up for a whole year before she was taking any further bookings. :erm:
well i think that we give of certain signs and movements which let them know they are on the right track...
but i think it is dabbling with the occult and i keep well away from it (let me just reiterated that i said I THINK)
I'm in the same boat bexy, I'm sceptical, but how did the medium know what she knew and able to pass this on to my mum ? The only way is if she connected to my grandad. Some say these mediums go about looking through peoples rubbish bins looking for clues or tricking people into telling them more for the medium to turn it around and say this this and this. But I repeat that nothing was ever written down, the information could of only been passed to my mum to validate that the medium was connected to my grandad.
My mum tried to get a second booking with this medium, but she is so busy, she was booked up for a whole year before she was taking any further bookings. :erm:
there are some smart cookies around
that draw information from all sorts of ways
It can be shown that religious beliefs are positively irrational, that several parts of the theological doctrine are inconsistent with one another.
Christians claim the following
It's late, I'm tired, I don't know why I'm bothering to answer this but here goes anyway ... guess I'm too stupid not to. Seeing as Drudge has made the explicit claim 'Christians claim the following', I am going to try to give a Christian answer. I make no apologies for the assumptions I am about to make about the nature of the universe. Just bear with me.
1) God is omnipotent (i.e., all-powerful).
correct.
2) God is omniscient (i.e., all-knowing).
yep.
3) God is perfectly good.
Still on track here.
4) Evil exists.
clearly, it does. So still full marks.
5) Any two or three of them might be true at the same time; but there was no way that all of them could be true.
And you were doing so well. Let's see how you back up this bold statement of opinion.
6) If God is omnipotent, he would be able to prevent all of the evil and suffering in the world.
He is capable of doing this and has made adequate arrangements. See below.
7) If God is omniscient, he would know about all of the evil and suffering in the world and would know how to eliminate or prevent it.
He is fully aware, and has already done everything necessary to put a stop to it.
8) If God is perfectly good, he would want to prevent all of the evil and suffering in the world.
He is, and he does. In fact, he has already taken steps to address this.
Statements (6) to (8) jointly imply that if the perfect God existed, there would not be any evil or suffering. However, as we all know, our world is filled with a staggering amount of evil and suffering. If we think about (6) to (8) in light of the fact of evil and suffering in our world, we should be led to the following conclusions:
Now, I just know your conclusions are going to be skewed, because the statement above makes absolutely no attempt to give God a chance to explain himself and his actions. You can't sum up the prosecution before the defence has had a chance to answer the charges. If you are as well-read as you say you are, you could very easily have dropped in the answers a number of religions give to the points you have raised, before telling us all why you disagree with them. The fact that you have not done this is very telling. In fact, all you have done is state some observations about the world, and then claimed (very boldly indeed) that God must address them in the way you see fit if you are to accept his claims to omniscience, omnipotence, etc.
9) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.
True, although as I said above you have not mentioned any of the possible 'answers' to this provided by religions. Let me give you the answer from my religion, Christianity, seeing as that is the religion you set out to address. God knows about evil, answered it by offering eternal life through his son Jesus, and gives it to anyone who asks. Evil persists in the world because people refuse to take the remedy, not because God is powerless to offer one.
10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
Having absolute power is one thing. Using it with absolute wisdom is something else. The USA is getting a hammering in another thread on this forum for 'imposing' its view of things on another sovreign nation, regardless of the fact that a great deal of evil is being done in that nation (Iraq). 'The ends don't justify the means' is a common theme. So would you be happy if God just forced his way of doing things on you? I thought not.
11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Âthat is, he must not be all-knowing.
You are dancing yourself round in philosophical circles, but as I've been illustrating above, your previous statements are based on some very false assumptions indeed. If your previous statements are untrue, then this conclusion is completely wide of the mark. As is what follows:
From (9) to (11) we can state:
12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.
Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:
13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.
Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked.
It is obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) to (3) above.
To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.
14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.
Statement (14) is simply the conjunction of (1) to (3) and expresses the central belief of christian.
There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are contradictory.
Philosophers have always believed it is never rational to believe something contradictory. So, the existence of evil and suffering makes christians' belief in the existence of a perfect God IRRATIONAL.
It's very clever, the way you spin a complex web of interdependent statements, which build into a set of contradictions which are then easy for you to 'prove' irrational. It's just a pity you didn't spend the time actually reading what the Bible says about these issues instead. Your statement (13) is false, and is based on a set of unsubstantiated assumptions on your part, due either to ignorance of or unwillingness to acknowledge what the Bible says on the subject. Like it or not, the Bible is the authoritative source here, as you claim to be discussing the Christian worldview.
So, as (13) is not true, there is no contradiction with (14), which is true, and I can sleep sound at night knowing that I have a Lord in heaven who I will meet one day. :)
there are some smart cookies around
that draw information from all sorts of ways
Sorry, I just fail to see that. How can anyone suggest right away, what really happened that was personal between two people, remember nothing was written down and my mum only gave yes or no answers, I fail to see how anyone, let alone a medium - can suggest, 1st time that this this and this happened and it really did. :shrug:
towny you are soooooo wise.....must remember to ask you if i have any questions in future :p
Sorry, I just fail to see that. How can anyone suggest right away, what really happened that was personal between two people, remember nothing was written down and my mum only gave yes or no answers, I fail to see how anyone, let alone a medium - can suggest, 1st time that this this and this happened and it really did. :shrug:
yeah I know
but a medium once related issues to me relating to problems with the birth of our second child that were not knowable to other parties
dilli-theclaw
15-11-2003, 23:34
It's late, I'm tired, I don't know why I'm bothering to answer this but here goes anyway ... guess I'm too stupid not to. Seeing as Drudge has made the explicit claim 'Christians claim the following', I am going to try to give a Christian answer. I make no apologies for the assumptions I am about to make about the nature of the universe. Just bear with me.
1) God is omnipotent (i.e., all-powerful).
correct.
2) God is omniscient (i.e., all-knowing).
yep.
3) God is perfectly good.
Still on track here.
4) Evil exists.
clearly, it does. So still full marks.
5) Any two or three of them might be true at the same time; but there was no way that all of them could be true.
And you were doing so well. Let's see how you back up this bold statement of opinion.
6) If God is omnipotent, he would be able to prevent all of the evil and suffering in the world.
He is capable of doing this and has made adequate arrangements. See below.
7) If God is omniscient, he would know about all of the evil and suffering in the world and would know how to eliminate or prevent it.
He is fully aware, and has already done everything necessary to put a stop to it.
8) If God is perfectly good, he would want to prevent all of the evil and suffering in the world.
He is, and he does. In fact, he has already taken steps to address this.
Statements (6) to (8) jointly imply that if the perfect God existed, there would not be any evil or suffering. However, as we all know, our world is filled with a staggering amount of evil and suffering. If we think about (6) to (8) in light of the fact of evil and suffering in our world, we should be led to the following conclusions:
Now, I just know your conclusions are going to be skewed, because the statement above makes absolutely no attempt to give God a chance to explain himself and his actions. You can't sum up the prosecution before the defence has had a chance to answer the charges. If you are as well-read as you say you are, you could very easily have dropped in the answers a number of religions give to the points you have raised, before telling us all why you disagree with them. The fact that you have not done this is very telling. In fact, all you have done is state some observations about the world, and then claimed (very boldly indeed) that God must address them in the way you see fit if you are to accept his claims to omniscience, omnipotence, etc.
9) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering in the world, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, is powerful enough to prevent it, and yet does not prevent it, he must not be perfectly good.
True, although as I said above you have not mentioned any of the possible 'answers' to this provided by religions. Let me give you the answer from my religion, Christianity, seeing as that is the religion you set out to address. God knows about evil, answered it by offering eternal life through his son Jesus, and gives it to anyone who asks. Evil persists in the world because people refuse to take the remedy, not because God is powerless to offer one.
10) If God knows about all of the evil and suffering, knows how to eliminate or prevent it, wants to prevent it, and yet does not do so, he must not be all- powerful.
Having absolute power is one thing. Using it with absolute wisdom is something else. The USA is getting a hammering in another thread on this forum for 'imposing' its view of things on another sovreign nation, regardless of the fact that a great deal of evil is being done in that nation (Iraq). 'The ends don't justify the means' is a common theme. So would you be happy if God just forced his way of doing things on you? I thought not.
11) If God is powerful enough to prevent all of the evil and suffering, wants to do so, and yet does not, he must not know about all of the suffering or know how to eliminate or prevent itâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚Âthat is, he must not be all-knowing.
You are dancing yourself round in philosophical circles, but as I've been illustrating above, your previous statements are based on some very false assumptions indeed. If your previous statements are untrue, then this conclusion is completely wide of the mark. As is what follows:
From (9) to (11) we can state:
12) If evil and suffering exist, then God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.
Since evil and suffering obviously do exist, we get:
13) God is either not omnipotent, not omniscient, or not perfectly good.
Putting the point more bluntly, this line of argument suggests thatââ‚ ¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂin light of the evil and suffering we find in our worldÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã¢â‚¬ÂÂif God exists, he is either impotent, ignorant or wicked.
It is obvious that (13) conflicts with (1) to (3) above.
To make the conflict more clear, we can combine (1), (2) and (3) into the following single statement.
14) God is omnipotent, omniscient and perfectly good.
Statement (14) is simply the conjunction of (1) to (3) and expresses the central belief of christian.
There is no way that (13) and (14) could both be true at the same time. These statements are contradictory.
Philosophers have always believed it is never rational to believe something contradictory. So, the existence of evil and suffering makes christians' belief in the existence of a perfect God IRRATIONAL.
It's very clever, the way you spin a complex web of interdependent statements, which build into a set of contradictions which are then easy for you to 'prove' irrational. It's just a pity you didn't spend the time actually reading what the Bible says about these issues instead. Your statement (13) is false, and is based on a set of unsubstantiated assumptions on your part, due either to ignorance of or unwillingness to acknowledge what the Bible says on the subject. Like it or not, the Bible is the authoritative source here, as you claim to be discussing the Christian worldview.
So, as (13) is not true, there is no contradiction with (14), which is true, and I can sleep sound at night knowing that I have a Lord in heaven who I will meet one day. :)
And the reason 'god' let my mother die begging for my dad to kill her because of the amount of pain she was in - can you tell me that?
I'd love to know what kind of loving god would allow this.
And the reason 'god' let my mother die begging for my dad to kill her because of the amount of pain she was in - can you tell me that?
I'd love to know what kind of loving god would allow this.
Any answer short enough to post in a forum would sound deeply patronising to you dilligaf. These are painful, personal issues ... I have had some pretty rough times in my own life too. :( If you do want to talk it over, I'm happy to swap PMs with you.
dilli-theclaw
15-11-2003, 23:42
Any answer short enough to post in a forum would sound deeply patronising to you dilligaf. These are painful, personal issues ... I have had some pretty rough times in my own life too. :( If you do want to talk it over, I'm happy to swap PMs with you.
I don't know if there's any point in discussing it to be honest.
I'm not having a personal go at you - it's just the way I feel.
My sister lost her son at 4 - My missus has had 3 miscarriages and lost a child at birth.....
So I guess I'm just pretty f**ked up about it all.
As it happens - I used to be a believer untill all this happneded.
But right now - I can't see myself ever becoming one again. :(
I salute the thread starter of this topic. Well done. It is a topic often avoided but a good one nonetheless. It can bring back bad and painful memories to those who have lost a loved one. But it can also let people have a say on such matters or talk about personal issues that have effected their belief in life after death.
I salute the thread starter of this topic. Well done. It is a topic often avoided but a good one nonetheless. It can bring back bad and painful memories to those who have lost a loved one. But it can also let people have a say on such matters or talk about personal issues that have effected their belief in life after death.
yes ..well done that poster
I don't know if there's any point in discussing it to be honest.
I'm not having a personal go at you - it's just the way I feel.
My sister lost her son at 4 - My missus has had 3 miscarriages and lost a child at birth.....
So I guess I'm just pretty f**ked up about it all.
As it happens - I used to be a believer untill all this happneded.
But right now - I can't see myself ever becoming one again. :(
i'm really sorry that you have been through all this, terrible stuff....believe it or not ive been through a lot in my life, and yes it stopped me believing...life is tough *sigh*
tbh atm, i have a lot of fmaily members terminally ill, so i can relate:(
dilli-theclaw
15-11-2003, 23:52
i'm really sorry that you have been through all this, terrible stuff....believe it or not ive been through a lot in my life, and yes it stopped me believing...life is tough *sigh*
tbh atm, i have a lot of fmaily members terminally ill, so i can relate:(
Thanks for the thought it's nice :)
.....and now I've managed to get myself all upset again. I REALLY shouldn't read this type of stuff - it happens every time.
I think I'm going to back out of this thread now.
homealone
15-11-2003, 23:52
I don't know if there's any point in discussing it to be honest.
I'm not having a personal go at you - it's just the way I feel.
My sister lost her son at 4 - My missus has had 3 miscarriages and lost a child at birth.....
So I guess I'm just pretty f**ked up about it all.
As it happens - I used to be a believer untill all this happneded.
But right now - I can't see myself ever becoming one again. :(
believer or not, I hope it helps to discuss it.
There are people on here who can help - this is the strength of this site - respect to Towny for offering support.
i'm really sorry that you have been through all this, terrible stuff....believe it or not ive been through a lot in my life, and yes it stopped me believing...life is tough *sigh*
tbh atm, i have a lot of fmaily members terminally ill, so i can relate:(
At times like this we need to have a *Group hug*.
At times like this we need to have a *Group hug*.
i agree
*group hug*
homealone
16-11-2003, 00:07
i agree
*group hug*
we need a big hug smiley.
:luv:
we need a big hug smiley.
:luv:
:luv:
dr p can we get a hug smilie from somewhere?
hows this one gaz?
http://www.send4fun.com/pages/longdistancehug/wishteddy2.gif
ok now :notopic: so back on topic
:luv:
dr p can we get a hug smilie from somewhere?
I can sure give it my best to find one for us. :)
handyman
16-11-2003, 02:10
whilst not agreeing with the topic as i'm sure bexy knows my views are very atheist. My views start with the bible being a 'book' so i best stay out of the topic.
Anyway here is a hug Download Failed (1) and a group hug Download Failed (1)
feel free plunder the directory mr p Download Failed (1)
Handyman: being an athiest myself I can totaly agree with you, but dont forget this isnt just about the afterlife (If there is such a thing, not likeley IMO) Its about other peoples views of what comes next, if anything, sureley even mereley from an educational viewpoint this must be interesting?
And if the Bible is not a 'book' what the hell is it ??? :p
handyman
16-11-2003, 02:32
It is a interesting thread and I have read all the posts. The after life for me is nothing, lights out move on nothing to see here. There are many 'belivers' in this thread and I know they enjoy their beliefs and it makes them happy. So I'm content to leave them too it, each to their own and all that. It's not for me to say if its right or wrong, I have my own beliefs and that satisfies me just fine.
My views on the bible? A uneducated view on the causes of everyday things. To understand the bible you have to get into the shoes of early man, they did not know why it rained or why it snowed. They assumed that something higher and mightier was behind it, had there been the scientific understanding that there is now then religion would not exist.
My view on religion.. I can see it dwindling off over the next century. Many more youngsters are praying at the church of xbox then christ. Without this intake of followers then religion will fade away. Case closed the facts show attendances of church's are falling. Some predictions give religion as it is now only 40 years left.
whilst not agreeing with the topic as i'm sure bexy knows my views are very atheist. My views start with the bible being a 'book' so i best stay out of the topic.
Anyway here is a hug http://marks-stuff.co.uk/forum/html/emoticons/hug.gif and a group hug http://marks-stuff.co.uk/forum/html/emoticons/group.gif
feel free plunder the directory mr p http://marks-stuff.co.uk/forum/html/emoticons/whistling.gif
Thanks for the offer handyman, but they are not really in the current theme of the rest of our smilies, they look like invision board smilies. Ta anyway. :tu:
For the Group hug..... :ghugs:
I went out last night and missed all the fun!
Yes the Bible is a 'book'. Although we consider it to be be the inspired word of God it was written by man who is prove to error. Although it gives us great direction, I for one do not worship or kneel before it. It merely gives guidance.
As for churchs only having a limited amount of time left, nothing could be further from the truth. When you hear that church attendances are dwindling, most of the time that statement is referring to Catholic of CoE faiths, who curiously think when they make astatement, it is representative of all Biblical-based faiths. Remember there are estimated to be more than 1 billion followers of Jesus worldwide. Subtract the amount of people who make such a claim to 'keep up appearances' and you've still got a healthy proportion of the population. This isn't what I'd call a faith which will die out anytime soon.
handyman
16-11-2003, 10:45
I went out last night and missed all the fun!
Yes the Bible is a 'book'. Although we consider it to be be the inspired word of God it was written by man who is prove to error. Although it gives us great direction, I for one do not worship or kneel before it. It merely gives guidance.
As for churchs only having a limited amount of time left, nothing could be further from the truth. When you hear that church attendances are dwindling, most of the time that statement is referring to Catholic of CoE faiths, who curiously think when they make astatement, it is representative of all Biblical-based faiths. Remember there are estimated to be more than 1 billion followers of Jesus worldwide. Subtract the amount of people who make such a claim to 'keep up appearances' and you've still got a healthy proportion of the population. This isn't what I'd call a faith which will die out anytime soon.
I was refering to a article on the news about CoE attendance in this country alone. I am aware that world-wide Following is increasing. My guess would be that it is mainly the third-world countrys providing the increase though.
I was refering to a article on the news about CoE attendance in this country alone. I am aware that world-wide Following is increasing. My guess would be that it is mainly the third-world countrys providing the increase though.
I'm sure there are fact and figures which will support that. There's no denying that some people are dissatisfied/disillusioned with the way the Church is 'performing' today. I do think that some aspects need 'modernising' (through lack of a better word). I think the view of churches being dusty buildings with rows of pews and a large (MUSICAL!) organ in the corner place by octogenarian Mrs Jones, where the service involves formal prayer and Songs-of-Praise-esque hymns followed be some feebled-voiced vicar/priest preaching a sermon whilst the people who got drunk last night are sitting at the back sleeping their hangover off, isn't going to appeal to many.
Speaking from experience, the more evangelical faiths (of which I am part) where it's all very happy-clappy have slightly more of an optomistic outlook. When we get visitors who see us all genuinely having a good time, they more often than not want a piece of it for themselves.
For the Group hug..... :ghugs:
thanks dr p....
mark yes c of e attendence is dwindling, but the attendence at churches like russ' and mine (which are two slightly different churches) are increasing....and i do not know about russ but we have a high proportion of youth in my church
but guys :notopic: afterlife?
handyman
16-11-2003, 13:29
Oks ontopic again, I think this extract from a site pretty sums up my opinion.
Here is a rhetorical question for the ages - if you knew, beyond any doubt, that there was absolutely nothing after death, no heaven nor hell nor rebirth nor whatever you might believe or have been taught, would you support war or the death penalty or any of the other myriad methods man has devised to kill himself or his fellow citizens of earth? If you knew that, once you are dead, everything that made you an individual simply ceased to exist, how would you change your life and the way you live it?
The reality, of course, is that there is absolutely no irrefutable proof of an afterlife for any of us. Religions try to convince their followers of its existence in order to insure a reward and punishment type of control over their sheep. Hell, for those who believe in a God who punishes eternally for mistakes made in a infinitesimally small span of just a few years of life, is a wonderful image to deter "sinners" or as a place to send the billions who do not share their particular taste in deities and rituals. Conversely, heaven is a marvelous device to reward those who follow the teachings of whatever God or prophet or leader or guru is believed to be the "One True God" of the moment.
As any drill instructor or child psychologist or prison warden will tell you, offering rewards to those who follow the rules and firm punishment to those who do not creates an atmosphere where the majority will try very hard to please those with the power to inflict monumental pain or exalted happiness on them. Even the mere threat of such discretion in the hands of the unaccountable can be utilized to control the daily actions of others.
I would like to put forth the contention that, perhaps, we should all accept the notion that the odds against an afterlife existing are immense and that the chances are far greater that once we leave this earthly realm, our existence is finished forever. I believe that the vast majority of the pain which we inflict on one another would be far harder to justify and to live with if we acknowledge our probable eternal disappearance from being.
I offer the opinion that the notion that killing in war or through starvation or preventable illnesses or car accidents by drunk drivers or even through state sponsored murder in the sad act of capital punishment would become far more onerous should we realize that these acts are the end of all being for all time for that person.
We try to simplify and soften the concept of death, be it caused by murder or nature or war, by believing that all will be well for the departed soul as it goes on its way to whatever reward we fancy to exist. We want to believe that the evil some cause upon this earth is repaid by eternal damnation. We also want to believe, of course, that we have the right, in any manner whatsoever, to send a soul on that imaginary journey, as a sacrifice to the political mood of the leaders of that time, through war or execution.
Mankind needs heaven and hell to exist in order to control the masses and to excuse the murderous actions of those same masses. Without those mysterious places, the idea of killing "For God and Country" would degenerate into the truth which is that all war is only killing for dirt or personal profit or over imaginary lines on a drawing which represents the surface of this insignificant planet circling an average star far out on an arm of a not so special spiral galaxy floating through a universe more massive than the human mind can comprehend.
I would like to offer the suggestion that, with the idea of this life being the only opportunity at existence, perhaps the human race could look at one another as the miracles we all are and to treat one another accordingly. Maybe, knowing that the silent and irreversible act of taking the life of anyone else is of such cosmic finality, we could begin the process of no longer listening to those morons who demand that life be cheap and that those with religious beliefs or skin color or features or languages different from our own are disposable if they cannot be included in our profit making schemes. Perhaps, most importantly, we could begin to quietly respect one another and cease our ridiculous judgments over such inane measures as wealth or appearance or color.
Knowing twentieth century America, though, it would only be taken as a license to accumulate even more wealth and to cause even more pain since the evil expressed in this life would never be accounted for.
sorry its soo long
Religions try to convince their followers of its existence in order to insure a reward and punishment type of control over their sheep. Hell, for those who believe in a God who punishes eternally for mistakes made in a infinitesimally small span of just a few years of life, is a wonderful image to deter "sinners" or as a place to send the billions who do not share their particular taste in deities and rituals. Conversely, heaven is a marvelous device to reward those who follow the teachings of whatever God or prophet or leader or guru is believed to be the "One True God" of the moment/
there is no reward/punishment device, simply in the christian faith, you believe in Jesus and accept him into your life and you go to heavan, you don;t believe in jesus as your saviour you go to hell..... getting to heaven has nothing to do with good deeds or not sinning, gosh any christian will tell you they still "sin"....
What, Live Fast,Die Young & repent on your deathbed?
I'll continue to do wrong for as long as i'm able to!
All i have to do is repent my sins on my death bed :)
Suckers ;)
shabba that is your choice obviously, however if you were commenting on the issue that i made......you need to remember that i believe in a omnscient God (darn my spelling is appalling again) and therefore if you repent on your death bed just to get into heaven God will know your heart....He will know whether you are doing it just to get into heaven and it is up to his discretion how he would react to this, i don't pretend to know the mind of God....
Rubber Duck
16-11-2003, 16:06
So if u are a Christian , believe in god & attend church each week no matter how bad u act during your life (say u go out & murder 3 people) When u die & reach the gates of heaven, if, u are truly sorry for killing 3 people & repent god will still let u in heaven will he?????????
So if u are a Christian , believe in god & attend church each week no matter how bad u act during your life (say u go out & murder 3 people) When u die & reach the gates of heaven, if, u are truly sorry for killing 3 people & repent god will still let u in heaven will he?????????
I am not God and as i said in my previous post i do not profess to know the mind of God.... the bible says that if we confess our sins and actually mean it then He forgives us....... i don't know whether it is right or wrong that he would forgive someone whom has murdered......that's one issue which i still battle with
similarly, it is not about church attendence, as long as you have accepted jesus as your Lord and saviour then you have access to heaven, if you accept him but don't go to church you still get into heaven imo
The last time i was in church was 1979 for the harvest festival!
Did a tin of beans help the lord and his followers?
:rofl:
you may not have any religious beliefs yourself, but please do not mock those who do
I don't mock any religion!
Have any of your prayers been realised?
Please tell me how!
what's that got to do with the topic at hand? :shrug:
Rubber Duck
16-11-2003, 16:57
If god is so powerful & good WHY does he let such horrible things happen in the world .like\
People being murdered &/or raped every day
Children being beaten by their own parents
People being allow to starve to death every day
People dying very painful deaths (due to accidents or illnesses)
People living every single day in poverty & having to beg for money on the street
†¦âââ €šÂ¬Ã‚¦Ã ‚¢Ã¢â€šÂ¬Ã†Â¦..and so on
If god is so powerful & good WHY does he let such horrible things happen in the world .like\
People being murdered &/or raped every day
Children being beaten by their own parents
People being allow to starve to death every day
People dying very painful deaths (due to accidents or illnesses)
People living every single day in poverty & having to beg for money on the street
………..and so on
this is known as the problem of evil......an issue which i have studied in depth since i wrote my university dissertation on it......HOWEVER i fail to see how it is relevant to the topic of this thread....if you would like to have a look at some of the theological/philosophical answers to this issue then feel fre to pm me and i will point you in the direction of certain texts and web sites
Rubber Duck
16-11-2003, 17:06
this is known as the problem of evil......an issue which i have studied in depth since i wrote my university dissertation on it......HOWEVER i fail to see how it is relevant to the topic of this thread....if you would like to have a look at some of the theological/philosophical answers to this issue then feel fre to pm me and i will point you in the direction of certain texts and web sites
No thanks, there is no need to send me any information
No thanks, there is no need to send me any information
fair enuff
So if i end it with there is no God, will Russ the thread killer close it ;)
russ will only close a thread if someone is rude towards another forum member or there is a legit reason too
you are entitled to your own opinion, but neither russ nor i agree with you:D
but then this thread is not designed to prove/disprove god's existence
So if u are a Christian , believe in god & attend church each week no matter how bad u act during your life (say u go out & murder 3 people) When u die & reach the gates of heaven, if, u are truly sorry for killing 3 people & repent god will still let u in heaven will he?????????
No, one must repent on earth and actually mean it. You can't fool God, He sees your heart. As a Christian you cannot live your life according to vices and sin, there are still levels of expectancy. I truly believe when someone becomes a Christian, their disposition changes, Mine certainly did. As an example, previous to my rebirth my pc had warez, copies of certain software etc.
Just after I was saved I completely overhauled the lot and although have been offered copies of certain programs, I decline them all, it just doesn't feel right.
Just my personal viewpoint you understand.
No, one must repent on earth and actually mean it. You can't fool God, He sees your heart. As a Christian you cannot live your life according to vices and sin, there are still levels of expectancy. I truly believe when someone becomes a Christian, their disposition changes, Mine certainly did. As an example, previous to my rebirth my pc had warez, copies of certain software etc.
Just after I was saved I completely overhauled the lot and although have been offered copies of certain programs, I decline them all, it just doesn't feel right.
Just my personal viewpoint you understand.
of course you can't live your life according to vices and sin and yes your disposition does change, the point is we are trying (through help of the holy spirit) to become more christ-like, but as human beings we are also grounded in sin....we shouldn't live our life in sin, but we are not perfect.......we fall down sometimes.
Spot on. Christians are as prone to sin as anyone. There seems to be a popular misconception that Christians don't do anything naughty. This is not true. We should be more aware of our sins, but as Bexy says, we still get temptations and give in to them.
Rubber Duck
17-11-2003, 00:30
No, one must repent on earth and actually mean it. You can't fool God, He sees your heart. As a Christian you cannot live your life according to vices and sin, there are still levels of expectancy. I truly believe when someone becomes a Christian, their disposition changes, Mine certainly did. As an example, previous to my rebirth my pc had warez, copies of certain software etc.
Just after I was saved I completely overhauled the lot and although have been offered copies of certain programs, I decline them all, it just doesn't feel right.
Just my personal viewpoint you understand.
Yes I do understand your viewpoint & I do respect people who do believe in god & religion (like yourself & Bexy) but it's just that I donââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t share the same beliefs :)
Yes I do understand your viewpoint & I do respect people who do believe in god & religion (like yourself & Bexy) but it's just that I don’t share the same beliefs :)
that's cool, all we ask for is that you respect our views, russ and i will not try and "convert" (i hate that term) you...that's not the aim, we are simply expressing our views
my pc had warez, copies of certain software etc.
Just after I was saved I completely overhauled the lot and although have been offered copies of certain programs, I decline them all, it just doesn't feel right.
Just my personal viewpoint you understand.I must be a christian then!:D
I must be a christian then!:D
Me too ... oh, hang on, I am :)
Me too ... oh, hang on, I am :)
:rofl:
Spot on. Christians are as prone to sin as anyone. There seems to be a popular misconception that Christians don't do anything naughty. This is not true. We should be more aware of our sins, but as Bexy says, we still get temptations and give in to them.Ain't that the truth? :rofl: :rofl:
Edit: That sounded evil.. Was meant as a joke, honest.
Mine certainly did. As an example, previous to my rebirth my pc had warez, copies of certain software etc.
Just after I was saved I completely overhauled the lot and although have been offered copies of certain programs, I decline them all, it just doesn't feel right.
Just my personal viewpoint you understand.
Hang on. *looks on PC and finds no warez*..
Damn, does this mean I am slowly becoming more religious...
Hang on. *looks on PC and finds no warez*..
Damn, does this mean I am slowly becoming more religious...
let me just state not having warez (whatever that is :erm: ) or illegal programmes on your pc does NOT make you religious or a christian <must be read in a humourous tone>
:rofl: :LOL:
Hang on. *looks on PC and finds no warez*..
Damn, does this mean I am slowly becoming more religious...
You will be ours, oh yes, you will be ours ... mwuhahahahahahaha ;)
/hides robes and scary religious paraphernalia
Errm ... no, I think it just means you are a nice, law-abiding citizen. :)
You will be ours, oh yes, you will be ours ... mwuhahahahahahaha ;)
/hides robes and scary religious paraphernalia
Errm ... no, I think it just means you are a nice, law-abiding citizen. :)
ok towny the men in white coats are on there way, stay calm all will be alright
:rofl:
You will be ours, oh yes, you will be ours ... mwuhahahahahahaha ;)
/hides robes and scary religious paraphernalia
:erm:
:erm:
i'll protect you stu......or am i really being nice only to persuade you to come over to our side? whahahahaha :p
damn towny it is catching :p
i'll protect you stu......or am i really being nice only to persuade you to come over to our side? whahahahaha :p
damn towny it is catching :p
Well, I'm on a caffeine rush from too many mugs of fairly-traded coffee
a sugar rush from too many maple and pecan cookies
and a brain-ache from too much editing a friend's wedding video, 45 minutes done and another 15 to go! :spin:
What's your excuse? :p :p ;)
Well, I'm on a caffeine rush from too many mugs of fairly-traded coffee
a sugar rush from too many maple and pecan cookies
and a brain-ache from too much editing a friend's wedding video, 45 minutes done and another 15 to go! :spin:
What's your excuse? :p :p ;)
i've been up for too long, and had a long day wondering round london, and had to actually do work, after 3months of being unemployed :p
either that or it is just the effect you have on me towny :p
i'll protect you stu......or am i really being nice only to persuade you to come over to our side? whahahahaha :p
damn towny it is catching :p
I keep expecting Towny to get up out of his throne (Ala the Emporer in Return of the Jedi), hold out his hand and say "Stu, give in to the Light side"...
:D
I keep expecting Towny to get up out of his throne (Ala the Emporer in Return of the Jedi), hold out his hand and say "Stu, give in to the Light side"...
:D
Take your Bible, strike me down with all of your love, and your journey towards the light side will be complete!
Download Failed (1)
bexy is seriously worrying about this forum *shakes head*
Take your Bible, strike me down with all of your love, and your journey towards the light side will be complete!
http://homepage.mac.com/towny/darkluke.jpg
LOL. Love the piccie..
bexy is seriously worrying about this forum *shakes head*
This is what happens when anonymous web surfing forum types get too familiar with each other.
Anyone would think we were all friends .... :wavey:
where's that group hug smiley?
This is what happens when anonymous web surfing forum types get too familiar with each other.
Anyone would think we were all friends .... :wavey:
where's that group hug smiley?
too familiar :naughty:
:ghugs:
and especailly for towny :kiss: :kiss:
too familiar :naughty:
:ghugs:
and especailly for towny :kiss: :kiss:
:blush:
Good thing Mrs Towny was in the room when I read this, otherwise I'd feel all naughty! I is a married man!
But thanks anyway :)
Did we kill this thread?
:blush:
Did we kill this thread?
Not yet...
:blush:
Good thing Mrs Towny was in the room when I read this, otherwise I'd feel all naughty! I is a married man!
But thanks anyway :)
Did we kill this thread?
sorry mrs towny....im just being :erm: friendly :rofl:
ahh but where does the thread go when it dies ;):p
sorry mrs towny....im just being :erm: friendly :rofl:
ahh but where does the thread go when it dies ;):p
Who's having :ghugs: without me ... :(
and Bexy ....... BEHAVE !!!!
Who's having :ghugs: without me ... :(
and Bexy ....... BEHAVE !!!!
:shrug: i always behave
:ghugs: just for nemmy :kiss:
:shrug: i always behave
Ermm...
Ermm...
My thoughts exactly ... LOL :D
stop picking on me :bigcry:
i'm always good :naughty:
stop picking on me :bigcry:
i'm always good :naughty:
Stu, looks like we upset Bex .... and on the eve of her B'day too.
/Me Bad
Stu, looks like we upset Bex .... and on the eve of her B'day too.
/Me Bad
awww was only joking :luv:
Rubber Duck
19-11-2003, 00:14
stop picking on me :bigcry:
i'm always good :naughty:
LOL Good?? What does being GOOD mean??? LOL How old are u today Bexy??:)
LOL Good?? What does being GOOD mean??? LOL How old are u today Bexy??:)
22 today...getting old now :p
good? well thats my secret :naughty:
22 today...getting old now :p
good? well thats my secret :naughty:
Happy Birthday girlie...
Happy Birthday girlie...
Err, there is a thread for this LOL :p
I blame the lateness of the hour ;)
Err, there is a thread for this LOL :p
I blame the lateness of the hour ;)
Oopps. Didn't notice. Just posted.
Theodoric
19-11-2003, 18:46
To save me trawling through all twelve pages of doom-laden death discussion (my,what a morbid lot we are :) ), has anyone yet posted that well known saying, "Life is a bitch. And then you die."?
everything go's black and thats it, the end.
For these bodies yes :D
Havnt got a clue about what happens when you die, thats why Im being buried with an Oxygen Supply and a Mobile Phone of some sort :eek:
Make sure it has a decent battery life :)
Slightly off topic there though :)
Theodoric
19-11-2003, 23:01
Havnt got a clue about what happens when you die, thats why Im being buried with an Oxygen Supply and a Mobile Phone of some sort :eek:
Well, that gives you a better chance than the Victorians, some of whom, apparently, had a morbid fear of premature burial. There were special coffins with bells attached. And of course there are those stories of coffins which were dug up and the corpse found in a disarrayed position and scratch marks all over the inside of the coffin!
everything go's black and thats it, the end.
But it couldn't ... if everything was 'black' that would presuppose you were able to perceive the blackness. :p
If you're trying to say you would just cease to exist, well then - try to contemplate absolute non-existence for a second and time how long it is before you get a headache. :spin:
Well, that gives you a better chance than the Victorians, some of whom, apparently, had a morbid fear of premature burial. There were special coffins with bells attached. And of course there are those stories of coffins which were dug up and the corpse found in a disarrayed position and scratch marks all over the inside of the coffin!
I just had to read that before I'd decided to goto bed!
And like Towny said.. It cant be blackness, cos you'd have to be able to tell.. Must be just complete nothingness.. Hard to comprehend :sleep:
Well, that gives you a better chance than the Victorians, some of whom, apparently, had a morbid fear of premature burial. There were special coffins with bells attached. And of course there are those stories of coffins which were dug up and the corpse found in a disarrayed position and scratch marks all over the inside of the coffin!
Well, I hope that doesn't happen to me coz I would just die........:)
homealone
20-11-2003, 00:42
Well, I hope that doesn't happen to me coz I would just die........:)
:rofl:
- ur one funny man;)
- anyone watch the "theory of everything" progamme on Ch4, recently - everyone always seems to want to explain "us" from the "outside in" - this programme tried do it from the "inside out" - after all, the atoms in our bodies were made in stars? - and 11 dimensions??
To save me trawling through all twelve pages of doom-laden death discussion (my,what a morbid lot we are :) ), has anyone yet posted that well known saying, "Life is a bitch. And then you die."?Or how about: "Life is a terminal disease"?
I cannot believe all the "You can't just cease to exist". IMHO you die, you decompose, the residue is absorbed by the earth.
Could the believers please tell me "If the "good" ones of you go to heaven, does it never get full? Secondly, "what was there before they were born?" By this I mean were there spare "SOULS" floating around awaiting allocation?
I don't recall anyone saying it was impossible for you to cease to exist, we were merely enjoying ourselves contemplating the best way to describe the state of non-existence. Sorry if that offended your beliefs in any way.
As for your questions:
1. Your question about Heaven getting full is based on the false assumption that heaven is a physical realm in the same sense that Earth and our Universe is. Heaven by definition is 'other'; there is no compulsion for it to follow the same laws of physics.
2. The pre-existence of souls is another non-question for the Christian. The Bible is clear on the point that God creates a soul/spirit for each person. We are not disembodied spirits waiting for all eternity for a body to inhabit. This is why the concept of non-existence is not alien to Christians - there was a time when I did not exist. Furthermore I have no problem with believing that God could cause someone to cease to exist again, although my understanding of the Bible is that he has undertaken not to do this - both Heaven and Hell are described as eternal states of which the inhabitants are conscious.
I cannot believe all the "You can't just cease to exist". IMHO you die, you decompose, the residue is absorbed by the earth.
Could the believers please tell me "If the "good" ones of you go to heaven, does it never get full? Secondly, "what was there before they were born?" By this I mean were there spare "SOULS" floating around awaiting allocation?
Good to see you changed your mind and decided to return to this thread :)
Theodoric
20-11-2003, 14:22
I1. Your question about Heaven getting full is based on the false assumption that heaven is a physical realm in the same sense that Earth and our Universe is. Heaven by definition is 'other'; there is no compulsion for it to follow the same laws of physics.
And just as well, otherwise we'd get this. (Nostalgic aside: Ah, the Stefan-Boltzmann law! Sinks into reverie of A-level physics lessons.)
HEAVEN IS HOTTER THAN HELL
The temperature of heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26 reads, Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days. Thus, heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (forty nine) times as much as the earth does from the sun, or fifty times in all. The light we receive from the moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. With these data we can compute the temperature of heaven: The radiation falling on heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation. In other words, heaven loses fifty times as much heat as the earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation
(H/E)^4 = 50
where E is the absolute temperature of the earth, 300°K (273+27). This gives H the absolute temperature of heaven, as 798° absolute (525°C) .
The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C , the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. Revelations 21:8: But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone. A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C . (Above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake.)
We have then, temperature of heaven, 525°C (977°F) . Temperature of hell, less than 445°F. Therefore heaven is hotter than hell.
And just as well, otherwise we'd get this. (Nostalgic aside: Ah, the Stefan-Boltzmann law! Sinks into reverie of A-level physics lessons.) <snip> We have then, temperature of heaven, 525°C (977°F) . Temperature of hell, less than 445°F. Therefore heaven is hotter than hell.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
ok i'm confooosed by the heaven being hotter than hell.....bear in mind i'm feeling poorly and my head isn't working anyhew....but what?????
bob_a_builder
20-11-2003, 16:46
What happens when you die ......
...... Well you go off line
Mine certainly did. As an example, previous to my rebirth my pc had warez, copies of certain software etc.
Just after I was saved I completely overhauled the lot and although have been offered copies of certain programs, I decline them all, it just doesn't feel right.
It's funny but I did the same in reverse. Like most of my peers I went to Sunday School ( C of E ) and church. I realise now that it was a good way of getting the kids out of the way for a fews hours. If I was engaged in any wrongdoing, and I am only talking minor childish naughtiness, I used to worry that HE was watching me. Upon my rebirth as a secular humanist and a confirmed atheist at the age of 9, I would often think back to how I had been brainwashed into irrational fear. Although my father was killed in a motorcycle accident when I was 10 and my mother spent many years in and out of hospital , I somehow managed to achieve a sense of right and wrong without the assistance of the almighty. And I have never had unlicensed software on my PC. I am convinced that when I die I will rot or burn and completely cease to exist. This is not a thought that I am completely comfortable with and I have on occasion sat bolt upright in bed after my subconcious mind reminds me of this "fact". I truly respect all religions and would never decry another's beliefs, in fact my younger brother is a Captain in the Church Army ( there is always one black sheep in the family ):D and together with my other brother we have the occasional discussion on the subject, thankfully it always remains lighthearted.
When yer gone, yer gone.
Can I just say my example of removing the naughty stuff from my pc was exactly that - an example. It takes more than removing the corperate copy of XP from your machine to be saved.... :D
Can I just say my example of removing the naughty stuff from my pc was exactly that - an example. It takes more than removing the corperate copy of XP from your machine to be saved.... :DAnd can I just say, I was joking when I posted. I realise it takes a bit more than removing a bit of dodgy software to be (as you say) saved..
ok i'm confooosed by the heaven being hotter than hell.....bear in mind i'm feeling poorly and my head isn't working anyhew....but what?????
The bible says how much light heaven recieves, and assuming for light it means radiation, you can work out how much heat heaven recieves, however, it doesn't take into account the reflective qualities of all those clouds, nor any heat generated from the halos.
The bible also mentions the lake of firey sulphur and brimstone. In order for sulphur to be liquid it must be above a certain temperature (or it would be solid) and below a certain temperature (or it would be gas), and the boiling point of sulphur is lower than the heat recieved by heaven, hence the supposition that heaven is hotter than hell :D
where the hell :) does it say that in the bible? i never heard any of that when i was in school.
He's just making mischief - the Bible makes some comments about how light it is in heaven, so some wag has gone and calculated how much heat must be generated by all that sunlight and arrived at a temperature for heaven. Similarly, hell is supposed to be full of 'brimstone' (sulphur) so same old wag quotes the boiling point of sulphur as the maximum temperature of hell. Turns out that by this measure, heaven is hotter than hell.
Sorry to spoil the fun tho', but the Bible also says this about the afterlife:
'And the city had no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they might shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it' (Revelation ch21 vs23)
So, unless anyone knows the temperature of God's glory, al bets are off :D
So, unless anyone knows the temperature of God's glory, al bets are off :D
well given the previous passages about how much light there would be, you could infer that this light was from god's glory and not the actual sun, therefore you could calculate just how radioactive god is, which could explain why it's not generally a good thing for him to show himself to people :D
It all falls into place...
well given the previous passages about how much light there would be, you could infer that this light was from god's glory and not the actual sun, therefore you could calculate just how radioactive god is, which could explain why it's not generally a good thing for him to show himself to people :D
It all falls into place...
Or maybe God manifests Himself as the Sun...
Or maybe God manifests Himself as the Sun...
ooooh, controversial ... :D
Maybe that's where the idea of Jesus came from ???
Some one said "God is Sun", but was overheard as "God's son" !!??
:dozey: :dozey:
Maybe that's where the idea of Jesus came from ???
Some one said "God is Sun", but was overheard as "God's son" !!??
:dozey: :dozey:
Hmmm..
'Son'
Hebrew = ben (pronounced bane)
Greek = huios (pronounced hwee-os)
'Sun'
Hebrew = shemesh (pronounced sheh'-mesh)
Greek = helios (pronounced hay'-lee-os)
son / sun
ben / shemesh
huios / helios
If they'd been speaking English in Judea circa 33AD you might have a point, but it doesn't work in Hebrew or Greek ;)
Hmmm..
If they'd been speaking English in Judea circa 33AD you might have a point, but it doesn't work in Hebrew or Greek ;)
Doh !!!!! :dunce: :dunce:
:dozey: :dozey: :dozey:
ooooh, controversial ... :D:smokin: :ninja: :Peace:
well given the previous passages about how much light there would be, you could infer that this light was from god's glory and not the actual sun, therefore you could calculate just how radioactive god is, which could explain why it's not generally a good thing for him to show himself to people :D
It all falls into place...
It's not so bad for Him to show Himself, it's hearing His voice which is said to be a no-no....did you not pay attention in Dogma?? :D
It's not so bad for Him to show Himself, it's hearing His voice which is said to be a no-no....did you not pay attention in Dogma?? :D
Or Her (as shown in Dogma)...:D
Erm.... :dunce: what is / was 'Dogma' ??? :dozey:
Hmmm..
'Son'
Hebrew = ben (pronounced bane)
Greek = huios (pronounced hwee-os)
'Sun'
Hebrew = shemesh (pronounced sheh'-mesh)
Greek = helios (pronounced hay'-lee-os)
son / sun
ben / shemesh
huios / helios
If they'd been speaking English in Judea circa 33AD you might have a point, but it doesn't work in Hebrew or Greek ;)
wow towny.......bexy bows in the presence of one who knows so much :p
It's not so bad for Him to show Himself, it's hearing His voice which is said to be a no-no....did you not pay attention in Dogma??
great film russ :tu:
wow towny.......bexy bows in the presence of one who knows so much :p
lol ... I really can't take any credit for that, I used http://www.blueletterbible.org to look up the words. All you need to know is how Strong's Bible word numbering system works, and off you go ...
lol ... I really can't take any credit for that, I used http://www.blueletterbible.org to look up the words. All you need to know is how Strong's Bible word numbering system works, and off you go ...
:cry: again you ruined my illusions *sigh*
Erm.... :dunce: what is / was 'Dogma' ??? :dozey:http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0120655/
I have been a while thinking about this and the answer is 42
Lord Nikon
29-03-2010, 03:51
I have been a while thinking about this and the answer is 42
about 6 1/2 years or so... Noticed the date of the last contribution to the thread?
papa smurf
29-03-2010, 08:37
about 6 1/2 years or so... Noticed the date of the last contribution to the thread?
well this came back from the dead so there's hope :D
and as for what happens when you die
the people who love you miss you, so make the most of the time you have .
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