View Full Version : **** local council
After a meeting with the council where I raised my concerns regarding a development on land and property purchased (in error by them) next door, they have done exactly what they said "couldn't possibly happen.
I visited the planning department to view the development plans and told them I was concerned they were going to knock down the building next door by gaining access through my property, without my permission and cause damage. The planning officer said "The only development work allowed was inside the area covered by the plans submitted, and the building next door was not in the red shaded development are of the application" He also stated "if there is any application to demolish the property, you will legally have to be informed because of the party wall" This information was also repeated at a meeting between the council and residents a few weeks later, by the chairman of the council and also the mayor in attendance.
Guess what, I came home from work tonight to find the have been into my garden with a bulldozer. They have demolished the property next door, demolished my old shed and bulldozed the contents including a couple of engines for my classic cars and my large grit blasting cabinet. They didn't need to go through my property to demolish next door, but I believe they did it with the sole intention of destroying the evidence of the old boundry fence. I had not replaced the old damaged fence because I thought they may think I was trying to pull a fast one and move the boundry, now they have removed the evidence of the boundry.
I believe from discussions with the council, that they didn't really know where their property ended. In fact they thought they owned the piece of my land that they have now bulldozed, this land is clearly marked on my deeds dating back to 1835 and has never been disputed by anyone. I had to point out to them previously that this piece of land was mine, after being tipped off that they had submitted early plans for a dwelling on it.
Now I have to take tomorrow off work unpaid to tackle both the contractors when they turn up, and create hell with the council.:mad:
I too think that the council often try anything to get what they want.
All I can say to you is Good luck for dealing with them tommorow. I hope you make yourself heard.
I hope you reported the damage, tresspass etc to the Police. Take plenty of photos too so that they can't deny what happened.
Chimaera
24-01-2006, 20:48
Go to the council tomorrow and ask to speak to the Chief Executive, tell him/her what has happened and tell them you are going to the local press with the story. They should certainly agree to see you PDQ and get something sorted. I'd still go to the press anyway, our local paper likes nothing more to find stories casting the local government in a less than favourable light.
Good luck. :tu:
I would get a solicitor round asap.
I know it's tempting to shout & rant but usually you will get more done (ie compensation) if you do it legally.
Don't speak to the contractors without someone independent present, pref your brief! And as Paul says, plenty of photos.
use a camcorder covertly aswell?
Scarlett
24-01-2006, 21:04
Private eye, document the whole sorrid tale and have it ready to post in case they try/manage to wriggle out of it.
I was already very pee'd off after Fridays incident. I took the day off work for a skip to be delivered, they failed to deliver twice on Friday and again Saturday because they couldn't gain access up the street. The helpful council removed the double yellow lines from both sides of the road, so the inconsiderate neighbours can park both sides, and sod off out leaving just enough room for a transit to squeeze through if guided.
I am now going to take my mates advice and save myself £75, he has given me the mobile number of the gypsies who he says are fairly OK to have around here. He said they will bring their transit tipper and take it away for £25, then dispose of it on the side of some quiet road.
Thats something I would of never considered, but with the council causing me all this hassle things are looking different.
Chimaera
24-01-2006, 21:15
I am now going to take my mates advice and save myself £75, he has given me the mobile number of the gypsies who he says are fairly OK to have around here. He said they will bring their transit tipper and take it away for £25, then dispose of it on the side of some quiet road.
Be very careful doing that! The council round here are very hot on fly tipping, and have patrols out looking for this sort of thing, also be very careful that there is absolutely nothing that can link you to the rubbish - if anything is found they will prosecute you!
Be very careful doing that! The council round here are very hot on fly tipping, and have patrols out looking for this sort of thing, also be very careful that there is absolutely nothing that can link you to the rubbish - if anything is found they will prosecute you!
Theres no paperwork/addressed etc, if I cant get a skip delivered it could be my only option. The local refuse tip will not let me take a trailer in. I had 4 skips last year and it was a nightmare getting them up the street.
These (http://www.lgo.org.uk/) are the bods to contact. Your Local Council appears to have behaved very badly. Keep and get more pictures of the problem as ammunition. If you have an opposition councillor available use them, if not try and find out who is keen to get elected and try them.
Try and see the local plan for your area, this should tell you what sort of development is allowed and where.
BTW I am a local councillor who sits on the planning committee (just not your area).
TheDaddy
25-01-2006, 02:32
I hope you reported the damage, tresspass etc to the Police. Take plenty of photos too so that they can't deny what happened.
Isn't this criminal damage, you may even get someone locked up for a short while at least. I know that would make me feel better.
etccarmageddon
25-01-2006, 08:01
the police wont want to get involved - they'll say it's a civil matter.
the police wont want to get involved - they'll say it's a civil matter.
So someone can drive a bulldozer through your property, demolishing bits of it and the police won't want to know? :(
etccarmageddon
25-01-2006, 08:27
I suspect as it's been done by someone taking orders from the council, the cops will consider it a civil dispute etc and not an act of criminality but I'm no expert. I would certainly go down to the cop shop and file a complaint for trepass, criminal damage etc - licence plates, photos etc are needed but I can't see the CID being bothered when they can point you in the direction of the council and tell you to sue.
I suspect as it's been done by someone taking orders from the council, the cops will consider it a civil dispute etc and not an act of criminality but I'm no expert. I would certainly go down to the cop shop and file a complaint for trepass, criminal damage etc - licence plates, photos etc are needed but I can't see the CID being bothered when they can point you in the direction of the council and tell you to sue.Thats just not right. I bet if you tried driving a bulldozer through the town halls wall the police would be on hand asap.:rolleyes:
What ever you do through this and however angry you feel you should stay on the right side of the law and be whiter than white or your claim aginst the council will lose credence.
Just a quick update, the Housing Strategy Manager has not returned my call. The contractors have shown me the method statement for the works, as always they dont have the correct address for the property. The contractor also pointed out that they didn't actually have any drawings for the work to show the boundry.
The planning department has been a little more helpful, they are very concerned after I mentioned the local government ombudsman and the local newspaper. The planning enforcement officer just phoned back to say they can find no application for work to be carried out on the site, other than the demolition of the old TA building. The planning inforcement officer has promised to come out and look at the site, and contact the Housing Strategy manager to see his authority to carry out the work.
The method statement was very "undefined" (contractors own words), and it does give the impression the housing department have rushed to demolish the building without permission and try to remove all traces of my boundry fence.
The method statement was very "undefined" (contractors own words), and it does give the impression the housing department have rushed to demolish the building without permission and try to remove all traces of my boundry fence.
If I was you I'd be looking for the housing dept person responsible for this debacle so I could spring a surprise face to face meeting on him...just to see his expression :devsmoke:
If I was you I'd be looking for the housing dept person responsible for this debacle so I could spring a surprise face to face meeting on him...just to see his expression :devsmoke:
My friendly council contact has already informed me that he lives at 126 xyz Crescent, Llanyravon, Cwmbran. If he will not come to visit on the weekend I will be visiting him.:D
My friendly council contact has already informed me that he lives at 126 xyz Crescent, Llanyravon, Cwmbran. If he will not come to visit on the weekend I will be visiting him.:D
....and knock his wall down?
MovedGoalPosts
25-01-2006, 13:18
I would be camping in the council offices now demanding to see the chief executive. This stinks.
There are various bits of legislation that can have an impact here - Party Wall et Act 1996, Rights toi neighbouring Land Aact. The council may well be able to take the wall down, and enter on your land to do so, but that must be strictly controlled with proper notices served in advance. Driving bulldowzers on your land is a nono.
Even if the boundary to the land was ill defined in title deeds, if you have had exclusive rights to the land up to the boundary for at least 12 years, and the council has nothing to categorically prove that the land is definitely theirs you would have acquired rights to it by virtue of adverse possesion, even if you had not properly owned it. The rules on this changed a little a couple of years ago, but the principle remains.
Just be careful that whatever you do now, remains legal, so you can play the only real card you will have in this matter, the small guy trampled on by the authority.
http://www.landreg.gov.uk/direct/Default.asp
Another source of information/legal proof. Cost on average £2 per document.
http://www.landsearch.net/
This one charges more but may also be worth checking.
Definatly take photos and keep evidence, that's apalling
Oh and post the photos here to, heh :P
My friendly council contact has already informed me that he lives at 126 xyz Crescent, Llanyravon, Cwmbran. If he will not come to visit on the weekend I will be visiting him.:DGood! Just don't lay a finger on him, don't even get abusive......just get a little into his personal space when you are speaking to/interrogating him :D
So someone can drive a bulldozer through your property, demolishing bits of it and the police won't want to know? :(
Yes of course, thats where there is some strange difference between civil and criminal law. If I walk down the street and smash the window of your car with a brick, its different to driving through your property with a bulldozer. Both cause damage, but only one for some strange reason is criminal.
To make matters even more stupid, the planning enforcement officer informed me that I am to blame! Because the development ie: excavation is on my land I am responsible if the council wished to persue.
Things have taken another turn this afternoon, someone working under the strategy manager actually contacted me. He claims the site has been sold to the developer and is no longer owned by the council, I then pointed out that the last letter a few weeks ago signed by his boss a few weeks ago stated the site would be sold to the developer after the demolition had been completed. I asked who was lying and told him the bulldozer operator said a council representative had been along to show them where to clear away, and then informed him of his bosses address and my intention to visit him at home if someone didn't take responsibility. He then asked if I could list all the complaints and costs and send them to himself, it certainly smells of something. Since that call I have had a message left on my home phone by the housing strategy managers sidekick, she has not proved to be the most honest of people in my previous dealings and this has been confirmed by people working for the council.
I have not spoken to this guy before, and he went a little quiet when I mentioned the fact that I own the land between the now demolished building and the road. I could be very wrong, but I am very suspicious that the developer may think he now owns my land via purchase from the council after the contractors look of surprise and the housing department guys silence.
etccarmageddon
25-01-2006, 18:07
all you need to find out now it that there's been back handers between the purchaser of the land and one or more council officials!
---------- Post added at 18:07 ---------- Previous post was at 18:07 ----------
but of course that doesn't happen ever does it!
Flubflow
25-01-2006, 18:12
Have you been in touch with your local Councillor? Get him/her round to see what has taken place and explain the history. Contact your MP as well. Push them really hard for answers.
Yes of course, thats where there is some strange difference between civil and criminal law. If I walk down the street and smash the window of your car with a brick, its different to driving through your property with a bulldozer. Both cause damage, but only one for some strange reason is criminal.
To make matters even more stupid, the planning enforcement officer informed me that I am to blame! Because the development ie: excavation is on my land I am responsible if the council wished to persue.
Things have taken another turn this afternoon, someone working under the strategy manager actually contacted me. He claims the site has been sold to the developer and is no longer owned by the council, I then pointed out that the last letter a few weeks ago signed by his boss a few weeks ago stated the site would be sold to the developer after the demolition had been completed. I asked who was lying and told him the bulldozer operator said a council representative had been along to show them where to clear away, and then informed him of his bosses address and my intention to visit him at home if someone didn't take responsibility. He then asked if I could list all the complaints and costs and send them to himself, it certainly smells of something. Since that call I have had a message left on my home phone by the housing strategy managers sidekick, she has not proved to be the most honest of people in my previous dealings and this has been confirmed by people working for the council.
I have not spoken to this guy before, and he went a little quiet when I mentioned the fact that I own the land between the now demolished building and the road. I could be very wrong, but I am very suspicious that the developer may think he now owns my land via purchase from the council after the contractors look of surprise and the housing department guys silence.Glad you are getting somewhere. Did you purchase your property within the last 20 odd years? If so details of "exactly" where your boundaries are should be available from the Land Registry (site previously posted). Also did you know anyone can apply for planning permission for a piece of land regardless as to who owns the land in question, but they cannot build on that land without the owners permission. Given that you should technically apply for permission to demolish a building (locally anyway) and nearby residents should be notified of this just the same as asking for planning permission, did they do that?
etccarmageddon
25-01-2006, 18:23
quite often builders disobey planning rulings eg build 21 houses when they only had permission for 19 or 20 and often councils dont take action because it's too expensive to persue. and of course there is never any back handers involved.
quite often builders disobey planning rulings eg build 21 houses when they only had permission for 19 or 20 and often councils dont take action because it's too expensive to persue. and of course there is never any back handers involved.
They definitely wouldn't get away with that round here. :Yikes:
MovedGoalPosts
25-01-2006, 18:55
Unfortunately the plans registered with the land registry can be inadequate for detailed boundary disputes. They will show different land parcels abutting each other. Precise positioning of those boundaries cna be less clear given the scale of the plans used, frequently 1:1250. At that size, the thickness of the line on the drawing can equate to a metre in real life.
---------- Post added at 18:55 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------
If you have not taken legal advice yet, do so. a.s.a.p. I think you need an injunction against the council, or indeed anyone else who might claim to be an owner of that site, carrying out any work on your land or near the boundary whilst ownership is in dispute. When work is permitted to resume they must fully comply with all legislation (Party Wall Act etc), and reinstate your property, properly compensating you for all losses and costs you incur.
etccarmageddon
25-01-2006, 18:58
an injuction sounds good. then you can have them arrested if they break it.
you could even apply for an ASBO against the council and the builder if you really wanted to take the pee!
TheDaddy
26-01-2006, 00:55
an injuction sounds good. then you can have them arrested if they break it.
you could even apply for an ASBO against the council and the builder if you really wanted to take the pee!
The injunction sounds like good advice, this whole situation could easily get out of hand.
Unfortunately the plans registered with the land registry can be inadequate for detailed boundary disputes. They will show different land parcels abutting each other. Precise positioning of those boundaries cna be less clear given the scale of the plans used, frequently 1:1250. At that size, the thickness of the line on the drawing can equate to a metre in real life.
---------- Post added at 18:55 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------
If you have not taken legal advice yet, do so. a.s.a.p. I think you need an injunction against the council, or indeed anyone else who might claim to be an owner of that site, carrying out any work on your land or near the boundary whilst ownership is in dispute. When work is permitted to resume they must fully comply with all legislation (Party Wall Act etc), and reinstate your property, properly compensating you for all losses and costs you incur.
It looks like I will not have to go the legal route, the council did sell the land with the building to the developer. The developer has not submitted plans for the work carried out, and the agreement as part of the sale was for the building to be demolished by hand. I have today received lots of phone calls from both the council and the developer, I will not tempt fate by mentioning what has verbally been discussed but the developer has agreed to put right any boundry to my satisfaction and compensate for any losses.
The developer has no use for the land and it is not part of the scheme, the building and land between the development site containing the other house that the council bought "in error" is not owned by the developer. The developer did not even apply for permission to have access through the council property, and as the first "snooty nosed" planning enforcement officer pointed out "Its your responsibility if it happens on your land":D
I think there are some red faces with the council, developer and demolition company.
It seems like the bottom line is as follows.
1)Council has to buy house to save being taken to European court for loss of access.
2)Council buys old TA centre to build school but get refused permission.
3)Council offers charity site for hostel.
4)Council assumes the own my land and plan to use it.
5)Council makes verbal offer to buy house in between.
6)Council informed they dont own piece of land but still buy house to honour verbal agreement.
7)Council apply for grant on behalf of charity for purchase council property at inflated price.
8)Developer/charity end up with a piece of land thats no use to them, but council has got themselves out of a hole.
The very bottom line is that eveyone involved ie:developer,charity and council is happy because the councils co*k-ups have been brushed under the carpet at no cost to themselves, with an extra few quid to cover some of their other co*k-ups. I guess the only people who loose are you and me, as we pay for it in our taxes.:mad:
MovedGoalPosts
26-01-2006, 18:45
Hmm, so get this sorted out, and your property correctly reinstated - make it clear to all that you reserve your rights to take legal action for trespass, damages etc - and then ensure the council is reported to the district auditor and local government ombusdman for malpractice.
......and tell the local rag all about this as well :D
......and tell the local rag all about this as well :D
I definately agree on that. However, I would only suggest this if you're not getting a satisfactory resolution. If you bring in the media too early you can get the council/developers wound up and it makes matters worse. Making a serious threat to get the media is one thing, actually getting them involved is a whole different ball game!
http://www.bioa.org.uk/
Linky to the British and Irish Ombudsman Association.
http://www.standardsboard.co.uk/
Linky to Standards Board for England.
Either of which are worth contacting to see what you can do if the Council/Developer renages on their promises to you.
MovedGoalPosts
26-01-2006, 22:12
......and tell the local rag all about this as well :D
I definately agree on that. However, I would only suggest this if you're not getting a satisfactory resolution. If you bring in the media too early you can get the council/developers wound up and it makes matters worse. Making a serious threat to get the media is one thing, actually getting them involved is a whole different ball game!
Worth remembering that the great British Press aren't known for telling the story you want to be told. It could easily get twisted so you don't come off quite as sweet smelling as you had hoped.
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