View Full Version : Identity Cards
Theodoric
11-11-2003, 19:10
So far this evening it has been impossible to get away from news items on Blunkett's proposed introduction of advanced identity cards, probably containing biometric information. So what are your views? I have heard ad nauseam the argument that if you are innocent then you have nothing to fear. However, even if you are as pure as the driven snow, would you trust any government with more powers than are necessary? Look at what is happening in America where they are using terrorism as an excuse to introduce the biggest attack on civil liberties since the post-WWI Red Scare, where the government took the opportunity to deport all manner of "undesirables".
I'm all for it, but then you probably know that already:D
HELP! HOW DO I MAKE THE LETTERS APPEAR IN BLACK PRINT!!!!!:confused:
Chimaera
11-11-2003, 19:19
Yeah - I'm for it too - after all, does ANYONE know exactly how much info the Government hold on us already?
Another bit won't make much difference and might even help with issues such as immigration etc.
deadite66
11-11-2003, 19:25
the world trade tower hijackers had valid id cards.
I'm all for it, but then you probably know that already:D
HELP! HOW DO I MAKE THE LETTERS APPEAR IN BLACK PRINT!!!!!:confused:
Like that :erm:
A long overdue and welcome idea, still got my Zimbabwe ID card.
:banghead:
right now what have we here? 3 direct debit cards,a library card,a boots reward card,a games reward card,a video hire card,a drivers licence complete with photo and the required paper driving licence(why do I have to have both?).i've a variety of other reward cards too plus my rac card and my mobiles top up cards.then theres my NHS card and my NI card.
do i want another card to add to all these?perhaps not.would i like to replace some of these cards?
yes please........
after all if terrorists can obtain and use id cards without the mighty usa picking up on it then i think i'm safe from prying eyes.however what happens if some g*t nicks my purse again?
i dunno that it will make much difference either way. i reckon we would soon get use to them. my husband did as a member of the armed forces and he never gave it a second thought.
incog.:Peaceman:
Anyone who wants to go abroad must have a passport, anyone who wants to fly internally must have a passport or photograpic ID. Driving licences are now photograpic ID's and even some credit cards - everyone obtains them without so much as a wimper so why the fuss over a dedicated ID card. Sorry but I really do agree with the age old argument - only those with something to hide could possibly have a problem with it.
Like that :erm:Is it working? Edit- yes it is! WTF happened there?
Is it working? Edit- yes it is! WTF happened there?
ummmmm ur pc had a mad five minutes :erm:
i for one am against a ID card scheme its just an excuse to track people
They must be very BORED if they want to track me! If "they" really want to know where I am (they can do that from my cell phone anyway) or what I am doing they can ask before hand and I will tell 'em.
Seriously, I vote strongly in favour and ASAP.
ummmmm ur pc had a mad five minutes :erm:I reckon:shrug:
Oh dear, where's Graham, he's normally straight here when theres an argument to be had!!!
Just proves me right, most people in the UK would like to have an ID card! :rolleyes:
Just proves me right, most people in the UK would like to have an ID card! :rolleyes:
i dont think people understand quite how the cards could be used against you such as a flagging system to keep an eye on you store personal information which could be detremental to you getting financial aid credit cards a car there can be some very nasty people out there who could tamper with the cards
I have no problem with the concept of i.d cards..but why do the powers that be have to use such pathetic excuses to justify something that half the government appear to be against?..As has been pointed out,terrorists will get them if/when they need them...and illegals will continue to arrive without them..how are cards going to remove those that are refused permission to stay??This can take up to 3yrs to decide..Do they get a"maybe" card while they are waiting??..Are the police going to stop everyone to see if they are "aok"..Driving licences and motor insurance are compulsory...does everyone have them...and do those that have-not always get caught??!!
it will bring a whole new meaning to the phrase stolen identity when your card is stolen or lost.
as far as I am concerned they can shove the idea and there's nothing they can do about it because I have no card and therefor no identity. :2up:
i dont think people understand quite how the cards could be used against you such as a flagging system to keep an eye on you store personal information which could be detremental to you getting financial aid credit cards a car there can be some very nasty people out there who could tamper with the cards
LOL. talk about paranoid. :rolleyes:
What do you think crdit reference agencies do now, virtually everything you do is already tracked by some computerised system.
LOL. talk about paranoid. :rolleyes:
What do you think crdit reference agencies do now, virtually everything you do is already tracked by some computerised system.
exactly! the only way NOT to be tracked is to have no banking account of any kind,no credit/debit cards,no mobile,own no housing,care etc...
makes for a very inconvenient life.after all how many businesses' actually pay cash to their employees these days.more and more turn to paying through a bank.
frankly i'm getting sick of this paranoid attitude-anyone would think we live in a gulag instead of a democratically run society. :rolleyes:
incog. :wavey:
A long overdue and welcome idea, still got my Zimbabwe ID card.
:banghead:
Given the current situation in Zimbabwe, I think you might have found a better argument in favour of your point of view. :disturbd: Consider how the ID cards of innocent Zimbabwean citizens are now being used by a corrupt regime to keep tabs on them and control their movements. And consider how short a time ago it was that Zimbabwe appeared to be the leading democracy in Africa. I don't want this kind of big brother information in the hands of a faceless bureaucracy. Once they have it, our power to restrict how they use it is negligible.
frankly i'm getting sick of this paranoid attitude-anyone would think we live in a gulag instead of a democratically run society. :rolleyes:
incog. :wavey:
It's not a paranoid attitude incog, it's a well-thought out opinion that happens to differ from yours ... but that's ok, because we live in a democratically run society. ;)
It's not a paranoid attitude incog, it's a well-thought out opinion that happens to differ from yours ... but that's ok, because we live in a democratically run society. ;)
which is why i trust the democratically elected government to be able to use id cards in an acceptable manner. :)
incog.
It's not a paranoid attitude incog
I'm sorry Towny, on this issue we differ, I think it is a very paranoid attitude, I really cant see the issue, but I'm sure some kind sole will be here shortly to tell me the error of my ways (not you BTW ;) )
Oh dear, where's Graham, he's normally straight here when theres an argument to be had!!!
Graham's too busy making up stock for the Erotica show at the moment, however he's been mentally composing (another) letter to his MP just to ensure that he knows that people are against the idea!
If anyone's interested in my views they can look back at the previous ID card threads because they're all there and I can't be bothered to repeat them.
Just proves me right, most people in the UK would like to have an ID card! :rolleyes:
Sure, like half the cabinet!!
Oh, and dellwear, I am not "straight here when there's an argument to be had", I'm "straight here" when there's a plan to grossly violate personal liberties, especially when it's in the guise of "it's for your own good!" (as the vet said to the cat...!)
Given the current situation in Zimbabwe, I think you might have found a better argument in favour of your point of view.
Actually, I didn't offer an argument all I did was write a statement, that I still had my Zimbabwe ID card.
The situation in Zim has always been bad, though now worse, it is an authoritarian, fascist state, and is an example of how not to run a scheme, the country is a basket case.
I think the arguments have been well rehearsed the case against often based on simple paranoia. Our cousins in Europe appear to manage quite well with them and appear not to suffer from any problems having them.
:cool:
I certainly have nothing to hide yet I don't want to be made to show I have nothing to hide, which is what I see this card symbolises. Apart from possible religious viewpoints there are plenty of reasons why law-abiding people wouldn't want such a card.
And what will the criminals do? Just carry fake ones.
frankly i'm getting sick of this paranoid attitude-anyone would think we live in a gulag instead of a democratically run society. :rolleyes:
incog. :wavey:
We're getting that way pretty damn quickly.
Well I see no problem with the ID cards, they are not going to be here for at least 7 years, will have eye and fingerprint identification.
This has surely got to be a step forward with proving who you are and eradication crime and fraud ??
timewarrior2001
12-11-2003, 09:33
i dont think people understand quite how the cards could be used against you such as a flagging system to keep an eye on you store personal information which could be detremental to you getting financial aid credit cards a car there can be some very nasty people out there who could tamper with the cards
A friend of mine a few years back was a member of a communist party political something or other.....basically students.
He was later arrested because he matched a desription of a wanted murderer. (yes honestly this is true). Once in the police station it was revealed to him that he had a government file that listed him as a political subversive.
Now this file would also include all his family, friends and aquaintences.
This makes me a political subversive by association, if the gov DO have this kind of info on me then a simple ID card cannot allow the gov to hold any more frightening info about me than they already have.
Any info stored that would cut out a) credit fraud b) benefit fraud c) any other kind of criminal activity that involves stolen ID's is in my mind perfectly OK.
duncant403
12-11-2003, 09:47
The one flaw no-one seems to have picked up on yet:
Apparently we need a new "definitive" ID card because existing ID (such as passports, driving licences) don't reliably confirm your identity... So if we currently have no way of confirming our identity, how does the government intend to confirm our identities in order to issue these "reliable" ID cards in the first place?
I can imagine it now: walk into the government office to get ID card; "Hello, my name's John Smith and I've come for my ID card." "No haven't got a passport or driving licence, so what now?"
In order to issue us with ID cards, the government has to first confirm exactly who we are. They would have us believe there is currently no way or reliably doing this - but if there is then why do we need another ID?
I certainly have nothing to hide yet I don't want to be made to show I have nothing to hide, which is what I see this card symbolises. Apart from possible religious viewpoints there are plenty of reasons why law-abiding people wouldn't want such a card.
And what will the criminals do? Just carry fake ones.
i was waiting to see what/if u would post....i know you and i have discuss this issue in depth.......
i am not sure how i feel about these cards :erm:
...and from another angle. WHat about the implications of face transplants on ID cards. If you have a major accident and end up with severe facial trauma which would need a facial transplant. Which picture would you use?
If you were a criminal and wanted to change your ID, you could steal an ID card and have a face transplant...[edit] or simply change the photo!
http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showthread.php?p=78805#post78805
I have no problem with the concept of i.d cards..but why do the powers that be have to use such pathetic excuses to justify something that half the government appear to be against?..As has been pointed out,terrorists will get them if/when they need them...and illegals will continue to arrive without them..how are cards going to remove those that are refused permission to stay??This can take up to 3yrs to decide..Do they get a"maybe" card while they are waiting??..Are the police going to stop everyone to see if they are "aok"..Driving licences and motor insurance are compulsory...does everyone have them...and do those that have-not always get caught??!!
I assume that (amongst other things I can't think of atm) they will be used for such things as when applying for Healthcare, Jobs, Social Benefits, Banking, UK entry, proof of age (?) in pubs / clubs etc, or when asked by a Police Officer.
More use than drivers licence and two bills etc. !!
zoombini
12-11-2003, 13:01
Yes, and will then every estalishment that you go into, employer etc be able to get access to personal information that will be stored about you?
And how would we go about getting one?
Show a few pieces of info oh say Birth Certificate etc.
All things that can be forged, allowing false cards to be obtained because the gov issuing dept concerned is overrun & understaffed.
Sort of ruins the point of them.
Yes, and will then every estalishment that you go into, employer etc be able to get access to personal information that will be stored about you?
Obviously your local pub / video store wouldn't have access to personal info., but as yet we don't know exactly what info. will be visible on the card - maybe DoB, photo, probably not address (although that is on a drivers licence), dunno what else.
And how would we go about getting one?
Show a few pieces of info oh say Birth Certificate etc.
All things that can be forged, allowing false cards to be obtained because the gov issuing dept concerned is overrun & understaffed.
Sort of ruins the point of them.
Same as Passport I suppose, but I don't know what checks the Passport Office run.
Virtually anything can be forged except fingerprints and iris scans. Nothing can be perfect.
And how would we go about getting one?
Show a few pieces of info oh say Birth Certificate etc.
All things that can be forged, allowing false cards to be obtained because the gov issuing dept concerned is overrun & understaffed.
Sort of ruins the point of them.Not really. If biometric info is stored on them then each set of biometric info. can be associated with one name only.
Each person can only be assoc. with their own biometric info. Unless they have eye transplants or something....
Thus, since the biometric data on the card has to match the person carrying the card then even if the name on the card is false they are stuck with that false name for ever after and can be monitered with that name.
Oh dear, where's Graham, he's normally straight here when theres an argument to be had!!!
Just proves me right, most people in the UK would like to have an ID card! :rolleyes:
I think people might be more pre-disposed to the idea if they could be absolutely sure that they could not be copied or altered.
It would be great to only need one piece of ID, but the snag is it would also be easy for someone else with the right skills and equipment to hijack your life.
Virtually any piece of ID can be fabricated because invariably the equipment and information to do so is in the public domain. For example, the computer industry said that the introduction of CDs would see an end to software piracy but it still thrives because CD writers were sold to the public. It will only work if the method of production and media used is kept in-house by the government i.e. the MOD. And even then I'm not certain ID cards would be safe.
Obviously your local pub / video store wouldn't have access to personal info., but as yet we don't know exactly what info. will be visible on the card - maybe DoB, photo, probably not address (although that is on a drivers licence), dunno what else.
Same as Passport I suppose, but I don't know what checks the Passport Office run.
Virtually anything can be forged except fingerprints and iris scans. Nothing can be perfect.
I'll bet even now some Mission Impossible team is already working out ways round the fingerprint and iris scans.
I wonder what would happen if there were public tests of the system and someone found a way round e.g. hacking the computer attached to the fingerprint or iris scanner.
This tape will self-destruct in 5 seconds... :D
Not really. If biometric info is stored on them then each set of biometric info. can be associated with one name only.
Each person can only be assoc. with their own biometric info. Unless they have eye transplants or something....
Thus, since the biometric data on the card has to match the person carrying the card then even if the name on the card is false they are stuck with that false name for ever after and can be monitered with that name.
That will only hold true for some forms of biometric information. You'd have a hard time faking a retinal scan, but an iris scan could be forged with a suitable contact lens. Similarly fingerprints can be faked using a thin latex fingerprint with the appropriate pattern on it.
*Edit* - Thinking about it, I wonder what the equipment that does a retinal scan do if you wore a clear contact lens, but with the centre darkened to obscure the pupil. Wouldn`t work on a machine with a human operator, as you can see a part of the iris as well, but would an automated machine be intelligent enough to realise, or would it just assume a hardware failure.
That will only hold true for some forms of biometric information. You'd have a hard time faking a retinal scan, but an iris scan could be forged with a suitable contact lens. Similarly fingerprints can be faked using a thin latex fingerprint with the appropriate pattern on it.
Nice one. Glad to see that someone shares my view that the protection systems can be circumvented by some lateral thinking and watching Mission Impossible & a few good 'caper' movies. Be interesting if the government invite hackers to test their system before they implement it.
After all, if Microsoft can't make a patchless operating system what chance have the British government got of making ID cards secure?
After all, if Microsoft can't make a patchless operating system what chance have the British government got of making ID cards secure?
None at all. Just one of the several reasons why I will not carry one.
Alan Waddington
12-11-2003, 22:34
I seem to carry a shed load of card's already. Another would be Ok if it could take the place of at least one of the others. I'm not too fussed about finger tip scans, but don't really fancy the idea of retinal scans for every transaction.
Is it going to be illegal to go out without your id card. Normally I leave all my cards behind and just take cash if I'm going to the swimming pool or the beach. Are the new id cards going to be waterproof?
LOL. talk about paranoid. :rolleyes:
What do you think crdit reference agencies do now, virtually everything you do is already tracked by some computerised system.
paranoid i have a good reason to be paranoid trust no one but yourself in terms of the government and corporate compaines who hold info give as little information as possible and dont use anything thats not needed
credit refrence system is diffarent though
frankly i'm getting sick of this paranoid attitude-anyone would think we live in a gulag instead of a democratically run society. :rolleyes:
incog. :wavey:
come on incog its not all paranoia you think we live in a democracy / to be fair we live in a free ish country but we are still bound to the stupidity and beurocracy of our systems most noteably our legal system
Any info stored that would cut out a) credit fraud b) benefit fraud c) any other kind of criminal activity that involves stolen ID's is in my mind perfectly OK.
i did not discount the rest of your post i read it and understood but the above is what i am replying to the fact is you dont know what IS stored on that card do you ?
scenario
you may have had a few stops by the police now even though you did nothing wrong there is going to be something left on that card now if you happen to be travelling along and there was a 'hit and run' with someone of a simaler car to yours they check your car and the card notice a few stopping incidents recorded
your nicked
off to the police station your questioned for hours even though you did nothing its just information to track you easier yes we may already be tracked somehow but i just dont trust governments with info :rolleyes:
duncant403
13-11-2003, 09:40
Not really. If biometric info is stored on them then each set of biometric info. can be associated with one name only.
Each person can only be assoc. with their own biometric info. Unless they have eye transplants or something....
Thus, since the biometric data on the card has to match the person carrying the card then even if the name on the card is false they are stuck with that false name for ever after and can be monitered with that name.
That's fine for stopping people claiming benefits under several names as they coul only have one confirmed identity - but the government has been billing these cards as a way of determining who is entitled to received benefits, free NHS treatment, jobs, etc in the first place. To do that you have to able to actually confirm someone's identity to show they are a British citizen / taxpayer who have contributed to the cost of these services and so entitled to use them.
An illegal imigrant would have perfectly valid biometric info that could be attached to an ID card that could carry a false name.
zoombini
13-11-2003, 09:42
Of course they will be hackable.
"Biometric info" might sound a nice & fancy term but I'm sure that it will be reproducible.
Thumbprint, Well what if you have burnt hands & no thumb? Cant use that then.
Retinal scans... well I can definitely see shops & landlords forking out for the equipment that allows that to be checked.
The card itself WILL be hacked & false data put onto it as it will first be a challenge to the hackers & then once hacked the criminals will find out & do it.
As sure as water is wet.
All because corners will be cut, budgets will have to be met & the cheapest solution will be purchased by the government despite being told that it is not entirely safe & that there is a better one elsewhere for a bit more money.
I have no deep objection to having an ID card, as long as
1) I get to know exactly what information is on it & can review this information when I wish.
2) If it is made compulsory that I am not forced to pay for it, that the government pay for it.
Given that they hope to save billions in benefit fraud etc, you'd think that they could afford to give them away.
I for one cannot afford the £80 it would cost for me & the wife just so the government can keep track of everyone.
Big Brother will definitely be watching you in a few years time.
Thought I'd ressurect this thread to post this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3937535.stm) info:
ID cards remain a controversial issue
Plans for introducing ID cards in the UK are poorly thought out and vital details are still unclear, say MPs. :rolleyes:
Thought I'd ressurect this thread to post this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3937535.stm) info:
:rolleyes:
Unfortunately it also says "The Commons home affairs committee says ID cards should go ahead and can help fight organised crime and terrorism" which is a complete nonsense.
This has never been credibly demonstrated and should be conclusively proven *before* any such scheme should be instituted (which will never happen!)
Theodoric
30-07-2004, 19:21
Unfortunately it also says "The Commons home affairs committee says ID cards should go ahead and can help fight organised crime and terrorism" which is a complete nonsense.
This has never been credibly demonstrated and should be conclusively proven *before* any such scheme should be instituted (which will never happen!)
I've got to admit that, if you're talking about British criminals (and The Mail and The Express notwithstanding, I'd guess that most organised crime in this country is run by British nationals), I've never been able to understand how identity cards would help. The police are perfectly well aware who most of them are; they just can't catch them at their illegal activities.
This has never been credibly demonstrated and should be conclusively proven *before* any such scheme should be instituted (which will never happen!)Unfortunatly, the only way that I can think of testing such a system is to implement it and see what happens.......
Unfortunatly, the only way that I can think of testing such a system is to implement it and see what happens.......
Which (and this is something I have *very* little doubt about) is most probably what Blunkett is counting on.
"Oh, yes, this will stop crime, prevent terrorism and make the sun shine..."
(A year down the line)
"Oh, well it didn't, but we've got it now and spent so much money that there's no point in getting rid of it and we might as well keep it. And don't worry about those pesky civil liberties, you'll hardly even notice they're gone..."
:mad:
cant we all just agree that its not going to do a damn thing expect make tracking people easier ?
cant we all just agree that its not going to do a damn thing expect make tracking people easier ?
NO
SMHarman
03-08-2004, 17:04
cant we all just agree that its not going to do a damn thing expect make tracking people easier ?
Ooh and add to that the satelite road charging project and tony will be sitting there in number 10 bloefeld style being able to pinpoint any person in the country (except those who organise crime, or are asylum seekers...)
Ooh and add to that the satelite road charging project and tony will be sitting there in number 10 bloefeld style being able to pinpoint any person in the country (except those who organise crime, or are asylum seekers...)
£1.33 per mile on main roads or is it motorways :rolleyes: and before anyone jumps at me i know its an estimation only!!!
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