Employment issue.

[printerman]

Hi all, as usual i would like some advice.
In June/July 2004 my company had a management buy out by two sales guys there (Mr M and Mr J). They can't talk to each other. In my opinion Mr J has no real benefit as he can not contribute(he ends up doing errands like quick deliveries etc..). Mr M has ideas but can't finish them and passes them to me. Six weeks ago the design engineer was sacked and now i do order checking and all autocad work. Since last week the person in purchasing is off for stress, (and i'm not convinced they are coming back). I'm now covering her duties as well. Mr M is talking about sacking one of the two sales people 'cos he can't afford them and i guess i'll be doing that too. Mr M actually wants to buy out mr J but doesn't have the money and also Mr J doesn't want to sell. Orders are dropping drastically, everyone is firefighting rather than being proactive and i've been told by Mr M that to pay everyone at the end of Nov he'll have to use his CC. He possibly won't be able to pay in december unless we get a large order. A week ago i eventually got some info off my Pension people and it now seems they haven't been paying into my pension for the last 5 months.!!
Now, these guys don't actually come in very often (once per week say) and they are at home, not visiting potential cutomers! So, i've just about had enough. So what do i do and how do i do it?

[Chimaera]

If I were you I'd put my CV on as many recruitment sites as possible - if the boss is saying he's got to pay people from his own funds it doesn't sound too hopeful. As to getting another big order, word gets around when companies are struggling - they may not be another order!
Sorry to be pessimistic, but you have to think of yourself at times like these - it sounds as if you have been keeping them running so far!
Good luck for the future - away from that company, if possible.

[Watchman]

with me probably being the worlds leading expert of companies going tits up and not paying me, i'd start sending my cv off to agencies and start looking around for a new job.

(happened to me no once, not twice but a threepeat! Not to mention the last in first out, luckily before it went horribly wrong there 'cos i was paid wages and notice - others weren't so lucky a few months later, they got nowt; and the decide not to relocate oooop north, so that one could be almost classed as voluntary!)

damn, maybe I should find another trade!

[printerman]

I've sent my cv out to agencies and also applied for a couple of jobs that i'm suitable for, but to be honest i'm of the opinion of just not going back .Thing is i want to be paid this month, and i want my pension paid as it was suppossed to be. After all they are breatching my contract by not doing it.

[Watchman]

I've sent my cv out to agencies and also applied for a couple of jobs that i'm suitable for, but to be honest i'm of the opinion of just not going back .Thing is i want to be paid this month, and i want my pension paid as it was suppossed to be. After all they are breatching my contract by not doing it.

You may as well go back, just in case you get paid and until you find another position.

I wouldn't hold your breath for the pension payments. And the contract won't mean much when signing on. If you get anything (wages etc), be greatful for that!

I hope you don't think I'm being negative/blunt, but as I mentioned my previous post, I've been there, done it and got the T shirt. Now I always expect the worst, that way it can only get better.:erm:

Look on the bright side, with all the extra on you are doing, you CV will look tip top!

Good luck

[printerman]

Do you think i should even go back after i've been paid in Nov........your saying work for a whole month and expect not to be paid for december....i don't agree with that. I could spend that time looking for a good job or even hust working down my chippie....at least i'd have SOME income for the end of december.

[Watchman]

Do you think i should even go back after i've been paid in Nov........your saying work for a whole month and expect not to be paid for december....i don't agree with that. I could spend that time looking for a good job or even hust working down my chippie....at least i'd have SOME income for the end of december.


sorry mate, I misunderstood. I was assuming November, though you've still got to be paid for that.

As for December, that's a difficult call. There is plenty of work or one form or another just to get some cash, as your rightly say.

[JohnHorb]

Not sure about this, maybe someone else can confirm - but if the company goes tits up,the DTI will fund redundancy payements (and - I THINK - unpaid wages). You could be risking this by just not going back

[Watchman]

Not sure about this, maybe someone else can confirm - but if the company goes tits up,the DTI will fund redundancy payements (and - I THINK - unpaid wages). You could be risking this by just not going back

yes they do pay both, though the limit is "capped" to certain amount per week owed for both wages and redundancy.

Taken from the DTI website

Redundancy payments
The amount of a statutory redundancy payment depends on the employeeââ‚à ƒâ€šÃ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢s age, length of service, and the amount of a weekââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s pay. The maximum payment is up to 30 weeksââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ pay, and the maximum amount of a weekââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s pay which may be used to calculate a payment is £280 (£270 before 1 February 2005).

See also document Redundancy payments (PL808)

Insolvency
Employees may be entitled to payments by the Department of Trade and Industry of certain debts owed by insolvent employers - up to eight weeksââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ arrears of pay, up to six weeksââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ holiday pay, and up to twelve weeksââ‚ƚ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢ pay as compensation if the employer fails to give the proper period of notice of dismissal. In each case, the maximum payment for a week is £280 (£270 before 1 February 2005).


And I'm sure it would be put at risk if you have effectivelly left the company by not going back.

[Enuff]

Sounds really iffy to me, I'd be looking after number 1 in this situation...

Since last week the person in purchasing is off for stress, (and i'm not convinced they are coming back). I'm now covering her duties as well.I think this person has the right idea, I bet he/she has seen the light!

But then again, you could go and then hear that they got a few big orders they've been waiting for and all is rosey there now!... but I honestly doubt it. :td:

[printerman]

thanks all, but i'm still unsure..there is the whole stress thing going on too...sick to the back teeth of it. I just want out of there....i don't see why i should work my butt off when they stay at home. If orders do come in and the place is okay i'm still here, just getting paid (with no pension i hasten to add!) and they reap the benefits. The orders won't come in 'cos we've no money to buy the raw materials, i've since found out via purchasing, cos MR M said got no money to spend!

[Watchman]

sounds like you've made your mind up. If so, go for it!

The last time I got stung, the owner closed on payday (a tuesday) at the end of the month telling us he couldn't pay. Then he drove off in his 3 month old porsche 911 special edition....Only later did we find out the money was assigned to payroll on the Friday and was pulled. This was the last day of November last year. Happy Christmas eh??

And did he take hit through it? damn would of if I'd have found out about the payroll on the day! No, he had it all stitched up so he wouldn't!

Just look after yourself 'cos nobody else will.

[Tuftus]

I would get out before the company folds by the sounds of things!!!!

[SMHarman]

And look after your payslips, if they have not been paying into the pension I bet they have also not been paying tax and nic. Both can be recovered and marked as paid in these scenareos if you have payslips to prove they have been deducted.

[printerman]

Yes i do have all my slips.

I don't really know how to approach the whole thing though. I don't know if i sohlud discuss it with my boss tomorrow and say "look i want to leave, you can have me for two weeks until i get paid then i'm not coming back". Or not say anything.
I'm not trying to sound bigheaded but due to me being the only technical bod in the building, if asay i'm leaving he might just shut the doors. THats difficult to deal with 'cos i've got 10 shopfloor workers who depend on me and they'll lose there jobs.

[Chimaera]

Just go to work as normal and say nothing - but use any free time you have to look for another job! Your employers don't seem to be bothered about their employees, so just look out for yourself!
Good luck and I hope you find another job with a boss who is appreciative of all your talents and hard work!

[Flubflow]

You could take your boss to one side and, off the record, tell him that you've found out that he's not been paying into the employees pensions and that if he does'nt pay you as a priority then you are going to blow his scam wide open. Tell him that since you are a key employee due to the fact that you are doing several people's jobs and you are in a position to help turn it around but you will leave and let it all fall apart if he doesn't comply, thus leaving him deeper in trouble.
Then, when you have found the job you have been searching for, get out and blow the whistle anyway.

[fireman328]

You could take your boss to one side and, off the record, tell him that you've found out that he's not been paying into the employees pensions and that if he does'nt pay you as a priority then you are going to blow his scam wide open. Tell him that since you are a key employee due to the fact that you are doing several people's jobs and you are in a position to help turn it around but you will leave and let it all fall apart if he doesn't comply, thus leaving him deeper in trouble.
Then, when you have found the job you have been searching for, get out and blow the whistle anyway.

I agree in part but there could be a chance to do yourself some good. As you say, you are doing most of the work there and know how the company works, offer the owners your skills as a the general manager to try to turn the company back into a going concern, ask them to give you 3 months to turn the company back into profit. If they don't like it OK but you have lost nothing, if they agree ask for a reasonable salary, executive powers and then work like mad to get some cash flow. If it works you get to keep management status if it fails, at least you will have tried and gained experience which will sit nicely on your C.V. when you are applying for other posts.
"Nothing ventured, nothing gained"

[homealone]

re the pension contributions, there is a lot of good information & advice in this link

http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/

:)

and for the situation in general lots of info on your rights at

http://www.worksmart.org.uk/index.php

hth

[SMHarman]

Another thought, as this is a small company (well it applies to any company, but...) and the guy knows to meet the wage bill he needs to pay in capital to the company there is a strong risk the company is trading whilst insolvent and not a going concern (unable to meet it's liabilities as they fall due). In such instances the Directors can be found liable for these debts (the veil of incorporation falls) and their personal assets can be taken to make good the debt. It might be wise to advise him and his fellow sparring partners at that level they should bang thier heads together and sort this out or find their mortgages going up or their houses seized.

[printerman]

Hi again!
right i've made my decission over the last week and i'm handing my notice in on friday. This is my last pay day. I intend to work for the next month as my notice (minus holiday i'm due...8 days!http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/images/icons/icon7.gif)
The problem i have is that i don't see why i should work when my employer has breatched my contract. ie they are STILL not paying into my pension as they have said they would. So should i go back to work or can i use that as a get out clause. ie mr boss here is my notice, due to the fact you have not paid my pension and are breatching the terms and conditions of my contract, i will not be returning to work until this is resolved.

Yours....me.

What do you think?

[Watchman]

sorry, don't know about employment law, just the wrong end of being shafted!

good luck and i hope you find something soon

[SMHarman]

Does the new pension protection fund help you?
Your pension is part of your wages and contract, what I would do is send him a email or letter reminding him / your employer of their obligation to contribute to your pension and that you will take all action necessary to ensure this occurs.
Check again when you leave, if it has not occurred make a small claims court claim (is it less than 5k they owe your pension scheme?). Sounds like your employer is trading while insolvent so the veil of incorporation drops and if you win you can go after his personal assets to recoup the loss.
You can do all of this on line for £30 at MoneyClaimOnLine. As it is small claims it is pretty easy, you don't need to write legalese, just state in your claim that your pension has not been contributed to in accordance with your terms of employement. In time (if it gets to court) you will need to submit a copy of those terms and the pension co statement to prove it has not been paid, but that is about all you would need to submit as evidence etc.

[printerman]

Would me leaving on friday (and not returning on monday (due to breathc of contract) jepodise me being able to go through a small claims court?

[printerman]

Also, Can i have the full address of that moneyclaimonline....i can't seen to find it!

[Angua]

Here you go https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp

[SMHarman]

It's not gonna help as you have not kept to your side of the contract, but if your claim is for the period to the day you left, not the entire notice period and you argue loss of faith that you could be paid at the end of the notice period you might be in luck.

[printerman]

Hi! Well i actually did it. I handed my notice in last week. Had a chat to the guy who wasn't very happy but has acepted the decision. Thing is, first thing he said was "can't pay you any more to stay". Job satisfaction or what!?

I'm off for one week(this week) and back for one week then thats it for xmas! Better start looking for a job i guess!

Anyway, he has since stated that he'd like me to be available to come in to work contract wise. So he can phone me up and get me in.....i said that i needed a contract for that and he agreed. So what can i expect to ask for? I'm not used to this sort of thing. My gf thinks i should have a monthly retainer also, so that even if i'm not called in i still get paid.

Thats the first question, the second is that since i did their website they want me too look after it (contract number 2!). So what do web people get for monthly updates, say an hour a week on updates?

Thanks all for your help, you 've all been great!

[printerman]

If no one has an opinon, does anyone know how to find this sort of info out?

Thanks all.

[ikthius]

on the website updates, I would say £100 - £250 an update depends on what is being updated. I may be undercutting, what most would charge here, but it is an honest fee, I think. Also depending on content and what the website is coded from, i.e. HTML, JavaScript, CSS. DHTML, Shockwave, and/or Server side like perl, apache, SQL etc.

on the contract side, I would think about what you got as an hourly wage, then for contract work, I would double it, to see what they think.

If they want you that bad, they will pay, and no one knows the company better.

ik

[SMHarman]

on the contract side, I would think about what you got as an hourly wage, then for contract work, I would double it, to see what they think.Professional services are often charged out at about 4 x hourly rate of pay. This covers overheads, downtime, holidays etc. It also covers the fact they are not insuring, SSPing or pensioning you to name 3. And the fact you need to pay an accountant at year end, not do it all PAYE.