View Full Version : vandals at it again
I was woken up Wednesday night by a lot of banging and crashing, by the time I got my jeans, trainers and cricket bat in the dark the vandals were running up the road. They had broken the boarding off the empty house next door, smashed down the fence and broken three of my fence panels.
Last night I came home from work and saw things on the back path behind my property had been moved about, I could then see activity inside the empty house. I went and got my cricket bat and phone, I called the police and told them "get here in 5 minutes or I will be going in and laying out the little b*****ds in a neat pile for you". Last time I called them they didn't bother to turn up, but this time three cars and five police officers arrived within 3-4 minutes.
They got them out of the house and started questioning them, I told one copper I recognised the one jacket being worn from the previous night. The teenager kept denying it but eventually admitted he had been there the night before, the coppers knew the lads very well and happened to mention to them about a load of damage they caused somewhere else the previous night.
The one copper was a big guy and looked like a nasty piece of work, he said "any more trouble call us and we will be here" I said "No, I will sort them out myself they have had one chance" I told him that I will sort them out then go in the house and deny everything, he said " I cant condone that but I cant fault you, as long as you stick to your story it's your word against a bunch of trouble makers"
He said "You dont understand we have this all night, call after call. I have been a copper in a large city but smaller towns are getting worse"
He told me his girlfriends car was broken into the previous weekend and said he would of sorted them himself if he caught them even though it could of cost him his job.
I knew one of the coppers, and he spelt it out to the **** that I would be well capable of dealing with them myself. There is no chance of the police doing anything about it, all five of them looked sheepish and all apologised to me and said it will not happen again... Ha Ha
I mentioned to the copper about my parents car being damaged and the community copper wanting them to drop the charges because he was a "nice boy", we later found out that he was waiting to go back to court for other vandalism and fraud charges. The copper said that the community coppers and do-gooders make their jobs ten times worse, because every time they want to let them off with a few words of warning. The Do-gooders opposite came out and actually grumbled because I had called the police, according to them the kids weren't doing any harm. I had a good laugh in his face because when they run from my house the previous night they broke the miror off his wifes car yet again, I thought what an ar**hole you are!
The copper himself said "They need a bloody good hiding"
If they come back, I will be the one to do it no problem.
I was woken up Wednesday night by a lot of banging and crashing, by the time I got my jeans, trainers and cricket bat in the dark the vandals were running up the road. They had broken the boarding off the empty house next door, smashed down the fence and broken three of my fence panels.
Last night I came home from work and saw things on the back path behind my property had been moved about, I could then see activity inside the empty house. I went and got my cricket bat and phone, I called the police and told them "get here in 5 minutes or I will be going in and laying out the little b*****ds in a neat pile for you". Last time I called them they didn't bother to turn up, but this time three cars and five police officers arrived within 3-4 minutes.
They got them out of the house and started questioning them, I told one copper I recognised the one jacket being worn from the previous night. The teenager kept denying it but eventually admitted he had been there the night before, the coppers knew the lads very well and happened to mention to them about a load of damage they caused somewhere else the previous night.
The one copper was a big guy and looked like a nasty piece of work, he said "any more trouble call us and we will be here" I said "No, I will sort them out myself they have had one chance" I told him that I will sort them out then go in the house and deny everything, he said " I cant condone that but I cant fault you, as long as you stick to your story it's your word against a bunch of trouble makers"
He said "You dont understand we have this all night, call after call. I have been a copper in a large city but smaller towns are getting worse"
He told me his girlfriends car was broken into the previous weekend and said he would of sorted them himself if he caught them even though it could of cost him his job.
I knew one of the coppers, and he spelt it out to the **** that I would be well capable of dealing with them myself. There is no chance of the police doing anything about it, all five of them looked sheepish and all apologised to me and said it will not happen again... Ha Ha
I mentioned to the copper about my parents car being damaged and the community copper wanting them to drop the charges because he was a "nice boy", we later found out that he was waiting to go back to court for other vandalism and fraud charges. The copper said that the community coppers and do-gooders make their jobs ten times worse, because every time they want to let them off with a few words of warning. The Do-gooders opposite came out and actually grumbled because I had called the police, according to them the kids weren't doing any harm. I had a good laugh in his face because when they run from my house the previous night they broke the miror off his wifes car yet again, I thought what an ar**hole you are!
The copper himself said "They need a bloody good hiding"
If they come back, I will be the one to do it no problem.
:tu: Just make sure the tree hugging do gooders dont film you with a video . And give the **** a extra slap from me. :)
:tu: Just make sure the tree hugging do gooders dont film you with a video . And give the **** a extra slap from me. :)
I think the ones opposite normally turn the volume up on the TV if there's any trouble, that way they dont have to admit there are bad people in this world. :rolleyes:
It's funny how they always come out of their house after the event and find an angle to support the person/persons causing the trouble.
One of the first things I would do is go in and remove the cassette from my own timelapse video ;)
Im glad the police are doing a good job and actually turned up.
This issue of being able to tackle them yourself is all over the news at the moment and keeps coming up again and again..... how far can you go to defend yourself and your property.
MovedGoalPosts
28-10-2005, 22:14
Im glad the police are doing a good job
No by the sounds of it they didn't do a good job. Why was nobody nicked, when it was clear offenses had occured either then, or previously and at least one was identified as diectly involved?
edit: In fact, even if the evidence was not fully there, of who did it, police can arrest on suspicion, to allow them opportunity to investigate further, if they know there is an offence, i.e. the damage. Alternatively, even without damage being caused, there may have been public order type offences that could have been committed. A night in the cells might just do the toe rags a bit of good.
This issue of being able to tackle them yourself is all over the news at the moment and keeps coming up again and again..... how far can you go to defend yourself and your property.
Reasonable Force - you don't have to wait to be hit, to strike first, if you have good reason to beleive you will be threatened. A citizen can use force to restrain an offender, when they know an offence has been committed. However you can't just lash out, there needs to be control, and when a person has been restrained the effort being applied will inevitably reduce. There is no such thing as "excessive force" as the very definition of force implies a balance is being struck between cause and effect.
Realistically the problems of these issues, and lack of police willingness to even bother with such issues is they know, even if on the rare occasion they have enough evidence to secure conviction, the offender will still only get a slap on the wrist. You can't win, you can't take the law into your own hands, but the law has no teeth.
:tu: Just make sure the tree hugging do gooders dont film you with a video . And give the **** a extra slap from me. :)
Hmmmm. That'll help.
Off to hug a nice oak.
Im glad the police are doing a good job and actually turned up.
This issue of being able to tackle them yourself is all over the news at the moment and keeps coming up again and again..... how far can you go to defend yourself and your property.
No they were not doing a good job, they only turned out because I threatened to sort them out myself if they didn't turn up.
The last time they didn't ever bother turning up!
I watched 'Blessed' with Ardal O'Hanlon this evening. At one point he accuses his smug git neighbour of living in a 'Guardian-reading utopia'. For some reason it reminded me of all the best fights - err, passionate debates - we have on CF. :D
Well where I live some scumbags trashed akids play area 5 times in one week the council repaied it and that night it was trashed.:mad:
Baseball bats & kneecaps spring to mind
No they were not doing a good job, they only turned out because I threatened to sort them out myself if they didn't turn up.
The last time they didn't ever bother turning up!
Ah yes, Sorry I hadnt read the post properly.
Its terrible that they didnt bother coming out the last time. If something really bad had happened then the consequences would have been huge.
I cant stand vandals. Half of the time they dont realise how much damage they cause and the cost to replace things.
timewarrior2001
29-10-2005, 00:13
I often Belt the little ****s round here, funnily enough only once has anything been done to our house or cars, and I know who did that, I'm just waiting to give them a good hiding.
Sometimes I belt them because they look guilty, sorry I mean like chavs.
I had to laugh tonight, woman at car boot fair dragging her herd of *******s behind her turned to her mate and said, I fancy a PC for christmas, I couldnt help but tell her wouldnt you be better of learning to read and write first. Ohhhh how we all laughed.
Hmmmm. That'll help.You never know, it just might deter them from a life of escalating crime......
You never know, it just might deter them from a life of escalating crime......
I remember a brother of my long tern GF's friend, he started off with petty crime. ie: stealing clothes of garden lines and sweets in shops. I said it would escalate and he should get a good hammering to teach him a lesson. He progressed to robbing houses and eventually mugging pensioners.
One day he was robbing a house and ended up having a bloody good kicking, he quickly changed to the straight and narrow because he really thought the home owner was going to kill him. He is now married with a kid, and admits he learnt from the lesson because he didn't want it to happen again.
He said it became a way of life and an addiction, he didn't really need the stuff he stole but it was a habit.
I remember a brother of my long tern GF's friend, he started off with petty crime. ie: stealing clothes of garden lines and sweets in shops. I said it would escalate and he should get a good hammering to teach him a lesson. He progressed to robbing houses and eventually mugging pensioners.
One day he was robbing a house and ended up having a bloody good kicking, he quickly changed to the straight and narrow because he really thought the home owner was going to kill him. He is now married with a kid, and admits he learnt from the lesson because he didn't want it to happen again.
He said it became a way of life and an addiction, he didn't really need the stuff he stole but it was a habit.
He got a kicking and learnt a lesson, thats the way it should be.
He got a kicking and learnt a lesson, thats the way it should be.
:tu: The way it should be Yes it is.
The realty in this country is that the **** bags get away with far to much and are given far to much when and if they are banged up.
The realty in this country is that the **** bags get away with far to much and are given far to much when and if they are banged up........and far too much effort is spent on focusing on them being 'victims'
I got in my local last night for the last hour when the one who appears to be the ring leader of these yobs causing the damage at the start of this thread came in, I dont know what was going on but they refused to serve him and he was told to leave. I thought it a bit unfortunate because he had already clocked me and I thought a trip out the toilet after him and a little push against the wall was in order.
I left th pub about 15 minutes later and saw a gang of seven walking up the road. I could see he was one of the gang and saw him pick something up from where the builders have been working, and use it to smash up the telephone box. I'm fairly sure the CCTV cameras were looking the other way down the street, So I guess he had already seen that and knew it was safe to cause some more vandalism.
I took another route home, ran all the way and rushed in the house to put on some old balck jeans and an old black shirt. I then came out into my garden waiting with the driveway gates open as I was squat down in the dark under the tree with my big baseball bat. All I got was very wet, for some reason they didn't come past this way last night, I was outside for nearly an hour waiting.
I have witnessed him causing damage Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday night this week. I suppose he comes from a broken family and needs a helping hand in life.
I was very pi**ed off that he didn't show, because I was looking forward to a bit of fun with him and his mates. Perhaps it was a good thing, but then gain he certainly wouldn't of caused any more damage after I had finished with him.
I got in my local last night for the last hour when the one who appears to be the ring leader of these yobs causing the damage at the start of this thread came in, I dont know what was going on but they refused to serve him and he was told to leave. I thought it a bit unfortunate because he had already clocked me and I thought a trip out the toilet after him and a little push against the wall was in order.
I left th pub about 15 minutes later and saw a gang of seven walking up the road. I could see he was one of the gang and saw him pick something up from where the builders have been working, and use it to smash up the telephone box. I'm fairly sure the CCTV cameras were looking the other way down the street, So I guess he had already seen that and knew it was safe to cause some more vandalism.
I took another route home, ran all the way and rushed in the house to put on some old balck jeans and an old black shirt. I then came out into my garden waiting with the driveway gates open as I was squat down in the dark under the tree with my big baseball bat. All I got was very wet, for some reason they didn't come past this way last night, I was outside for nearly an hour waiting.
I have witnessed him causing damage Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday night this week. I suppose he comes from a broken family and needs a helping hand in life.
I was very pi**ed off that he didn't show, because I was looking forward to a bit of fun with him and his mates. Perhaps it was a good thing, but then gain he certainly wouldn't of caused any more damage after I had finished with him.
You missed your night of fun then?? :D :D :D Never mind there are awlays other nights in the week to give him a good seeing to.
You missed your night of fun then?? :D :D :D Never mind there are awlays other nights in the week to give him a good seeing to.
I just had a bit more info from the next door neighbour, apparently last night around 9pm when I was at home there was some more bother.
The same gang, notable the one with a red/white/green welsh rugby top tried to break into next door but ones outside shed. The next door neighbour saw him and recognised him from Thursday night when I had the police here.
It seems silly to keep coming back to the same area to commit crime, but I think its just a case of them not giving a sh*t. Why should they, after all it appears nothing is done about them they are able to just laugh in the face of the police and continue to rob and vandalise as they please.
The neighbours now have instruction to get on the phone or knock my door, no matter what hour if there is any more sightings of them.
Theres only one way to deal with this sort of ****, I just wish I knew where he lived. It's only a matter of sorting out the big ringleader to put the others off, if enough people had the ba**s to get together and sort people like this out, this country wouldn't be such a bad place.
No, instead people like the do-gooders opposite turn up their TV and say "I'm alright Jack, I haven't got anything worth damaging or stealing. Just make another insurance claim if they do" :mad:
Spectacularly irresponsible actions and postings. Still, one way to find out if prisons are 'holiday camps' is to get done for ABH or GBH.
Spectacularly irresponsible actions and postings. Still, one way to find out if prisons are 'holiday camps' is to get done for ABH or GBH.
I know what a certain young offenders holiday camp is like. I had to do some work in one to give some of the **** there free treats at tax payers expense. :mad:
At the time they were getting far more in treats than my kids were getting as i could not afford them. Unlike the **** that was getting the free treats i did not think it was appropriate to go out and steal to get them and my kids felt the same way.
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.......and far too much effort is spent on focusing on them being 'victims'
Well said :tu:
Let's try and keep it responsible & legal in here please gents.
Let's try and keep it responsible & legal in here please gents.
I think the big problem is certain sections of society think its acceptable to turn the other way and let these thugs get away with it, but on the other hand they think the citizen who stands upto them should have the full force of the law come down on them, as they are far worse than the criminal they have dealt with.
It's only a very small minority in this country who are not fed up with these mindless thugs, the vast majority want them dealt with. I am not going to stand by and let them steal my property or vandalise it, let them get away and then hope the police are going to investigate, arrest, get a conviction, obtain compensation for the damage and then hope they have been taught a lesson.
These thugs are laughing in the face of the majority due to failure to deal with them. I saw him committing acts of vandalism on Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday in one week! I guess a minority will say they were the only three night he has ever done anything wrong. :rolleyes:
I saw him committing acts of vandalism on Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday in one week! I guess a minority will say they were the only three night he has ever done anything wrong. :rolleyes:
No they will say you were in the wrong to have.
A. Followed them "if you did"
B. Invade there privacy.
c. Removing there human right to do as they bloody well want.
Going around with baseball bats and dishing out vigilante justice is a) illegal (and therefore contrary to CF T&Cs) and b) thuggish.
I suppose that the problem really is that if the police were to do their job and stop hooligans like this (or show any real inclination to try) then otherwise peaceful/law abiding members of our society wouldn't feel the need to lie in wait with baseball bats....
imo this inability/unwillingness to deal with **** is what is making us come over all Old Testament...
Well I reckon a camcorder might be a better way of dealing. Bit of footage to the police - if no response, the local press. Beating the crap out of people is not a solution- and that sort of violence is worse than vandalism in my book.
Update...
Two just climbed up on my back fence, they made their way quickly down onto the road when they saw me.
Surprise surprise, the one with the Green/Red/White top was down on the road. I also recognised the second one from Thursday night!
What good will Camcorder or CCTV do for me as far as the police is concerned, on 3 occassions my parents have caught them red handed. The last time the guy damaged my parents car with a big scratch down the side and the police let him off because he said it was an accident. On the previous occassion the guy admitted it but the community police officer tried his best to get the charges dropped (and succeeded) because he was a "Nice Boy" we later found out he was waiting to go back to court for other criminal damage and fraud charges.
I failed to get the police to take any action a few years ago when I had a guy on camera trying to break into my garage, he was on tape and there would of been finger prints. The only good thing about CCTV is it gives me a chance to find out who he is.
Beating the crap out of people is not a solution- and that sort of violence is worse than vandalism in my book.
If they didn't do the vandalism in the first place then they wouldn't need slapping......they seem to think that their actions have no negative consequences for them.....why shouldn't they be re-educated?
Although the amount of times it seems to happen to Escapee makes me wonder if he is being targetted. Possibly because he hits back (a sort of "he hurt us, let's hurt him back" mentality).
If they didn't do the vandalism in the first place then they wouldn't need slapping......they seem to think that their actions have no negative consequences for them.....why shouldn't they be re-educated?
Violence is not re-educating. It's neanderthal. No-one is above the law and those that go around wielding baseball bats should not be surprised - or expect sympathy - when they get nicked and sentenced for it. If we all decided that we can be violent vigilantes where the hell would we be then? Total lawlessness.
Graham M
30-10-2005, 16:05
Violence is not re-educating. It's neanderthal. No-one is above the law and those that go around wielding baseball bats should not be surprised - or expect sympathy - when they get nicked and sentenced for it. If we all decided that we can be violent vigilantes where the hell would we be then? Total lawlessness.
Just like your average squeaky clean chav then :) :disturbd:
Although the amount of times it seems to happen to Escapee makes me wonder if he is being targetted. Possibly because he hits back (a sort of "he hurt us, let's hurt him back" mentality).
I have just had the police arrive, he had two other calls in the street!
It looks like they are targetting the area, the copper said they just dont care. He said gone are the days of casing the joint in the dark, they are very upfront about it these days. The third incident is a guy down the other end of the terrace who had them attempt to break into his shed last night.
I made a point of taking the officer into the empty house, I haven't been in there for nearly 12 months since its been boarded up. He was a little shocked about the amount of evidence of drug taking since the boarding was broken off the window on Wednesday night.
I am sure they are casing my place to rob something, I'm not sure what it is but I would much rather catch them in the act than chance the police ever catching them. :mad:
PS: I wouldn't expect sympathy, in fact I am quite surprised why anyone would be concerned about me getting into trouble. I am old enough to stand up for my own actions, the bottom line is the do-gooders are possibly a little more concerned about a criminal getting hurt rather than my welfare.
Although the amount of times it seems to happen to Escapee makes me wonder if he is being targetted. Possibly because he hits back (a sort of "he hurt us, let's hurt him back" mentality).............or he lives in a cr*p area
Are you not afraid if you attack them, theyll come at you in force??
Agree about people turning a blind eye all the time, somebody could get mugged in broad daylight and Im sure no one would even bother calling the police, let alone intervening.
Although the amount of times it seems to happen to Escapee makes me wonder if he is being targetted. Possibly because he hits back (a sort of "he hurt us, let's hurt him back" mentality).............or he lives in a cr*p area
Possibly, although I know people that also live in cr*p areas, and they have nowhere near the trouble that Escapee appears to have.
timewarrior2001
30-10-2005, 17:14
Violence is not re-educating. It's neanderthal. No-one is above the law and those that go around wielding baseball bats should not be surprised - or expect sympathy - when they get nicked and sentenced for it. If we all decided that we can be violent vigilantes where the hell would we be then? Total lawlessness.
And handing them life on a plate and excusing their crimes isnt working either.
Me I would much rather do it escapees way, These kind of people only understand violence and crime. The law is no threat to them but people like me and escapee are.
Your much touted liberalism is losing the fight against crime, and now we MUST toughen up and make these people realise they could be very badly hurt if they get caught.
I dont know, the problems started here when the new by-pass road was built, before they made it into a no through road for traffic it was too busy and dangerous for the yobs to hang about.
My area is similar to my parents, its not a crap area in fact its quite the opposite. The troublemakers and thieves come to the area to commit the crime, I guess they dont do it on their own doorsteps because they live amongst other thugs.
The situation is getting worse despite what some say, when I was a kid (That makes me sound old) the ones that did this sort of thing were few and far between, and usually ended up the borstal/prison route. They did I admit generally come from a rough family with a history of crime, although these days there very often doesn't seem to be the same connection in many cases, and they can often be from fairly well off respectable families. I also find it strange that they seem to travel a long way to commit vndalism these days, the copper was talking to him about a crime committed about 6 miles away when he was here on Thursday.
I also think there is a different situation these days with regard to authority, I would of been cra**ing myself if I had been in their situation on Thursday night. I guess they are streetwise these days and know they can get away with just about anything.
My area is not that bad, last year there was a spate of car thefts around the town. The police traced many of the cars to the Bristol area, as the criminals were coming over the bridge into Wales to steal. Before that it was something lik 80% of stolen cars within a 2 mile radius, ended up burnt out on a particular housing estate about 3/4 of a mile away.
I dont know anything about this gang currently causing problems, they are not from around the immediate locality but I bet I could pinpoint where they live within two goes.
And handing them life on a plate and excusing their crimes isnt working either.
Me I would much rather do it escapees way, These kind of people only understand violence and crime. The law is no threat to them but people like me and escapee are.
Your much touted liberalism is losing the fight against crime, and now we MUST toughen up and make these people realise they could be very badly hurt if they get caught.
So you too would hit a vandal with a baseball bat? My much touted liberalism is losing the fight against crime? Er how? Remember we have the highest prison population in Europe, 17,000 prisoners toileting in the same cell they eat, just 400 prison places left in the whole system, kids being jailed, people being jailed withoutfacing trial etc. Hardly liberal
At the same time, we have falling crime rates.
I repeat again, anyone who advocates vigilante violence would appear to be in breach of CF T&Cs and a thug.
If you're not happy with police actions complain loudly to your MP, councillors, press, Police Authority. Try and make your own difference without breaking the law and becoming an aggressive, violent idiot.
Eascapee's lying in wait would also certainly obliterate any self defence reasoning. It's just brutality. And I agree with StuartC that it seems like escappee's aggressive attitude might bring its own issues; perhaps being more of a problem than a solution.
The area I live in is not without its problems and I frequently deal with unpleasant teens; managed not go out marauding with an offensive weapon though.
So you too would hit a vandal with a baseball bat? My much touted liberalism is losing the fight against crime? Er how? Remember we have the highest prison population in Europe, 17,000 prisoners toileting in the same cell they eat, just 400 prison places left in the whole system, kids being jailed, people being jailed withoutfacing trial etc. Hardly liberal
At the same time, we have falling crime rates.
I repeat again, anyone who advocates vigilante violence would appear to be in breach of CF T&Cs and a thug.
If you're not happy with police actions complain loudly to your MP, councillors, press, Police Authority. Try and make your own difference without breaking the law and becoming an aggressive, violent idiot.
Eascapee's lying in wait would also certainly obliterate any self defence reasoning. It's just brutality. And I agree with StuartC that it seems like escappee's aggressive attitude might bring its own issues; perhaps being more of a problem than a solution.
The area I live in is not without its problems and I frequently deal with unpleasant teens; managed not go out marauding with an offensive weapon though.
But I haven't maurauded anyone with an offensive weapon, they dont even know I have an offensive weapon. I had never seen (to my knowledge) or had any contact with these people until they turned up this week causing damage to my property, council property, neighbours property and attempting to steal from neighbours property.
If I had a run in with them, I could perhaps understand that they would want to do something to get back at me. I fully believe they are going to try to break into my garage or house, they have already damaged my property so they are not exactly innocent people. They were warned on Thursday night by the police and are well known to them, I think that speaks volumes about them.
"Lying in wait" How would the police know I was lying in wait? someone enters my property it doesn't matter if I was waiting or not, only a fool would tell the police they were waiting for a criminal to turn up, so they could mauaude him.
1700 prisoners toileting in the cell they eat... My heart bleeds for every one of them :rolleyes:
Violence is not re-educating. It's neanderthal.......but I can possibly see a place for it if the police aren't doing their job.
......but I can possibly see a place for it if the police aren't doing their job. No, you kick up a stink about policing, not take things into your own hands, especially if your solution is simply violence.
And to repeat, it is illegal. Now CF T&Cs point 2, clause 4 states:
"Your use of CF shall be in accordance with these conditions, which are non-negotiable.
You agree that you will not:
Post, transmit, upload, email or otherwise make available any content that is illegal, abusive, harassing, defamatory, confidential, harmful, threatening, vulgar, libelous, invasive of anotherââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s privacy, or ethnically, racially or otherwise objectionable."
Its very debatable whether whats been said infringes on said rule.
No, you kick up a stink about policing, not take things into your own hands, especially if your solution is simply violence.
And to repeat, it is illegal. Now CF T&Cs point 2, clause 4 states:
"Your use of CF shall be in accordance with these conditions, which are non-negotiable.
You agree that you will not:
Post, transmit, upload, email or otherwise make available any content that is illegal, abusive, harassing, defamatory, confidential, harmful, threatening, vulgar, libelous, invasive of anotherââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s privacy, or ethnically, racially or otherwise objectionable."
Surely CF's T&C's taking them in the order you have listed, are there to stop members being abusive towards one another, harrasing each other, being defamatory, disclosing confidential info about one another without permission, harming thretening another member, libelling another member, racially abusing another member. I would expect these T&C's also take into account any posts that would bring the website under legal scrutiny, and the moderators would obviously err on the side of caution if they were unsure.
I have not been abusive to any member, defamatory or libelous although the same cannot be said for all members.
I wouldn't expect the website to condone any sort of violence, but the law is clear that a homeowner feeling threatened can defend himself. I would call seven large youths a threatening situation, if I was waiting for them or not!
timewarrior2001
30-10-2005, 20:18
So you too would hit a vandal with a baseball bat? My much touted liberalism is losing the fight against crime? Er how? Remember we have the highest prison population in Europe, 17,000 prisoners toileting in the same cell they eat, just 400 prison places left in the whole system, kids being jailed, people being jailed withoutfacing trial etc. Hardly liberal
At the same time, we have falling crime rates.
I repeat again, anyone who advocates vigilante violence would appear to be in breach of CF T&Cs and a thug.
If you're not happy with police actions complain loudly to your MP, councillors, press, Police Authority. Try and make your own difference without breaking the law and becoming an aggressive, violent idiot.
Eascapee's lying in wait would also certainly obliterate any self defence reasoning. It's just brutality. And I agree with StuartC that it seems like escappee's aggressive attitude might bring its own issues; perhaps being more of a problem than a solution.
The area I live in is not without its problems and I frequently deal with unpleasant teens; managed not go out marauding with an offensive weapon though.
Highest prison population in Europe huh, maybe so.
Falling levels of crime eh? Or is it falling levels of reported crime, knowing before hand that the police wont turn up why bother reporting it?
( I had a bad experience last night with an ambulance, which I am gonna post in a new thread)
Lying in wait would not stop any self defence plea, if these ***** came onto his property and threatened him, he is entitled to retaliate to protect himself and the key word here, his property.
A baseball bat is not an offensive weapon it is a piece of sports equipment, much like a cricket bat or snooker cue. If we are gonna call sporting equipment offensive weapons what about 5 years olds going equipt with footballs? Man they want locking up flouting the law like that ;) stuff the age of criminal responsibility lol.
By not allowing us to defend ourselves and our posessions we are creating a greater criminal risk to everyone. Not only do we have to repair damage, we have to pay higher insurance premiums whilst these little *******s can go into anyones house take what they want and have no fear of the law, because if the police where even called, and they bothered to turn up, and the police managed to bungle their way through to an arrest, they wouldnt get more than a caution anyway. Yet we, you and I, have to pay more and more every year to allow these kids to do that, then the police ask for a increase in their split of council tax......for what exactly?
I guess we must stop jailing people for burgulary because our prisons are becoming full of pensioners who are evil criminal masterminds for withholding their council tax payments. If you looked into what people are in jail for, you would find it amazingly sparse of people convixted of crimes such as we are discussing. its either very minor or very serious. there doesnt seem to be any in-between.
This topic is not the place to debate the T&C's of Cable Forum, so please don't. The Administrators & Moderators will decide if any rules have been broken.
Highest prison population in Europe huh, maybe so.
Falling levels of crime eh? Or is it falling levels of reported crime, Reported and the experience of crime as determined by the British Crime Survey, based on interviews with 44,000 people representative of the populationknowing before hand that the police wont turn up why bother reporting it? As I said above, kick up a stink.
Lying in wait would not stop any self defence plea, if these ***** came onto his property and threatened him, he is entitled to retaliate to protect himself and the key word here, his property. Attack is not a legitimate form of defence here.
A baseball bat is not an offensive weapon it is a piece of sports equipment, much like a cricket bat or snooker cue. I think you are deliberately missing the point. Though of course should you find somebody in your back yard with a jemmy and a screwdriver I presume you will apply the same logic. A baseball bat is an offensive weapon if you use it as such or intend t use it as such.
By not allowing us to defend ourselves and our posessions we are creating a greater criminal risk to everyone. Not only do we have to repair damage, we have to pay higher insurance premiums whilst these little *******s can go into anyones house take what they want and have no fear of the law, because if the police where even called, and they bothered to turn up, and the police managed to bungle their way through to an arrest, they wouldnt get more than a caution anyway. Yet we, you and I, have to pay more and more every year to allow these kids to do that, then the police ask for a increase in their split of council tax......for what exactly? You can defend yourself reasonably. You cannot attack with a baseball bat.
I guess we must stop jailing people for burgulary because our prisons are becoming full of pensioners who are evil criminal masterminds for withholding their council tax payments. If you looked into what people are in jail for, you would find it amazingly sparse of people convixted of crimes such as we are discussing. its either very minor or very serious. there doesnt seem to be any in-between. Agreed that putting Council Tax protestors in nick is stupid. Agreed that a lot of people are in prison for minor offences - that's why they are so clogged up when crime rates are falling (that's reported and experiential)
No, you kick up a stink about policing, not take things into your own hands, especially if your solution is simply violence.
And to repeat, it is illegal.Kicking up a stink about policing will do diddly..........and it's just possible that, while taking the law into your own hands may be illegal, it is on occasion, right
Surely Cf's T&C's taking them in the order you have listed, are there to stop members being abusive towards one another, harassing each other, being defamatory, disclosing confidential info about one another without permission, harming threatening another member, libelling another member, racially abusing another member. I would expect these T&C's also take into account any posts that would bring the website under legal scrutiny, and the moderators would obviously err on the side of caution if they were unsure.
I have not been abusive to any member, defamatory or libelous although the same cannot be said for all members.
I wouldn't expect the website to condone any sort of violence, but the law is clear that a homeowner feeling threatened can defend himself. I would call seven large youths a threatening situation, if I was waiting for them or not!
I have certainly not taken your posts as offensive and i don't think they will make me go out and beat the crap out of a thug just because i was reading your post. In fact i would have no problem using a baseball bat on someone on my property without my permission who has refused to leave when told to.
The public today has had enough and it's time the tables where turned.
Have a green one from me :)
timewarrior2001
30-10-2005, 22:55
Attack is not a legitimate form of defence here.
But he isnt attacking is he, if these people were on HIS property, causing damage to HIS property then he is defending HIS property. It matters not that he may have been waiting for them to do this.
Under English law you can use reasonable force if you believe either you or your property is at risk. Belting someone with a baseball bat would not be classed as over use of force.
Obviously if you decided to mash their skull to a pulpy mess with fragments of brain tissue for afters it would be deamed so, but belting the git on the arm and perhaps breaking his arm is NOT.
repeatedly smashing a bat into someones face would be too much force, swinging and connecting once would not be.
The attacker does not have to be armed, you can defend yourself and your property if you believe it or yourself is at risk. If it turns out there was no risk that does not outlaw your already achieved actions.
Why dont we look at the people commiting crimes and getting that stopped rather than trying to blame the ordinary person for defending what they have worked bloody hard for.
Why does it make me sick to my stomach that some people really believe that criminals are just misguided but the innocent person defending himself and family is an horrific criminal that should strung up.
Why does it make me sick to my stomach that some people really believe that criminals are just misguided but the innocent person defending himself and family is an horrific criminal that should strung up.
And my fear is that if a certain political party gets in power that will become the norm. The same party i would not trust with the defence of this country. But that is for another thread. :)
handyman
30-10-2005, 23:17
I think a certain forum member does not live in the real world.
Prison is supposed to be a deterant. As it is they live better than a lot of law abiding citizens. If you commit a crime then you lose your rights IMHO. Its very easy to live within the law and if anyone broke in here then they could expect a bloody good battering. Totally agree that the law is about as useful as a chocolate teapot nowadays because they are all scared of harming the law breakers rights.
What a crock.
__________________
And my fear is that if a certain political party gets in power that will become the norm. The same party i would not trust with the defence of this country. But that is for another thread. :)
Which party are you meaning? Coz I vote lib and i fully belive they would be the party to grab crime by the nuts and also to address the base of crime by educating people.
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Which party are you meaning? Coz I vote lib and i fully belive they would be the party to grab crime by the nuts and also to address the base of crime by educating people.
You got it in one :).
I have a different view point than you :). This is based on the complete idiot that was voted in where i live. At least i can say i did not vote for the wally.
I think a certain forum member does not live in the real world.
Prison is supposed to be a deterant. As it is they live better than a lot of law abiding citizens. If you commit a crime then you lose your rights IMHO. Its very easy to live within the law and if anyone broke in here then they could expect a bloody good battering. Totally agree that the law is about as useful as a chocolate teapot nowadays because they are all scared of harming the law breakers rights.
Well, having seen the inside of a prison (photos, before you get any ideas), and spoken several times to an ex-con, I would tend to disagree with your assessment of prisons as being better than being outside.
Do you care to provide any backup for your assertion that the authorities are scared of harming lawbreakers rights?
Well, having seen the inside of a prison (photos, before you get any ideas), and spoken several times to an ex-con, I would tend to disagree with your assessment of prisons as being better than being outside.
Do you care to provide any backup for your assertion that the authorities are scared of harming lawbreakers rights?
Well that Ex con is telling you lies, I can confirm that inmates get their own cells with en suite, playstations, SKY TV and all the other mod cons that go with it. What happend to the real prison with bars on the windows and a bucket to do your stuff in? If the prisons were like that they wouldn't commit crime would they?
But he isnt attacking is he, if these people were on HIS property, causing damage to HIS property then he is defending HIS property. It matters not that he may have been waiting for them to do this.
Under English law you can use reasonable force if you believe either you or your property is at risk. Belting someone with a baseball bat would not be classed as over use of force.
Obviously if you decided to mash their skull to a pulpy mess with fragments of brain tissue for afters it would be deamed so, but belting the git on the arm and perhaps breaking his arm is NOT.
repeatedly smashing a bat into someones face would be too much force, swinging and connecting once would not be.
The attacker does not have to be armed, you can defend yourself and your property if you believe it or yourself is at risk. If it turns out there was no risk that does not outlaw your already achieved actions.
Why dont we look at the people commiting crimes and getting that stopped rather than trying to blame the ordinary person for defending what they have worked bloody hard for.
Why does it make me sick to my stomach that some people really believe that criminals are just misguided but the innocent person defending himself and family is an horrific criminal that should strung up.
It bloody well does matter if he's lying in wait. I have no problem with people genuinely defending themselves or their families. Attacking vandals with baseball bats does not fit that bill, especially if that attack is pre-meditated (and I don't care if he lies to the police; it's the action that's deplorable).
Frankly I'm disgusted that people can openly express such a love of violence - however much they dress it up as being a just reacton to criminal activity - and that CF provides a platform for such thuggish nonsense.
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Well that Ex con is telling you lies, I can confirm that inmates get their own cells with en suite, playstations, SKY TV and all the other mod cons that go with it. What happend to the real prison with bars on the windows and a bucket to do your stuff in? If the prisons were like that they wouldn't commit crime would they?
Which prison are we talking about here? Not any of the three I've been to, though these were not open prisons designed to hold low risk prisoners and those nearing the end of their sentences who the Prison Service is trying to prepare for a return to society.
:LOL:
have a look at this (http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/prisoninformation/howaprisonoperates/)
Take the virtual tour :) better than some hotels i have stayed in.
:LOL:
have a look at this (http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/prisoninformation/howaprisonoperates/)
Take the virtual tour :) better than some hotels i have stayed in.
What is it you object to? A recreation area? A gym? Presumably not the block, strip searches etc. And anyone who's visited someone in one of our older prisons will be delighted to tell you what wonderful visitor facilities they have. I'm not quite sure how severe you expect prisons to be but I would have thought a communal recreation area and a gym to maintain fitness are not overly sumptuous, given that people are often locked up in cells for such a large part of the day and, let's not forget, locked up full stop for all of the day (excepting day release which is no doubt another liberal liberty bringing the country to its knees) Bear in mind that without some form of recreation, prisoners and therefore prisons would be unmanageable.
Some people here seem to be living in - revelling in - the Dark Ages.
The police are only part of the solution. The other parts of the solution need to buck up their ideas too...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4384374.stm
The police are only part of the solution. The other parts of the solution need to buck up their ideas too...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4384374.stm
Its strange to hear that re-offending is so high, especially when we hear from some quarters that prisons are such terrible places. I dont think we can use the excuse anymore that the vast majority are down and outs/homeless etc, vandalism and burglary seems to be a crime across all classes these days.
Walking down the street and attacking a vandal with a weapon is entirely different to attacking one to defend yourself on your own property. If only Tony Martin had shot those criminals at close range in the front, instead of the back he would never of gone to jail.
I thank you all for your support, and the number of green reps I have received over this thread speaks volumes about the opinion of the majority of law abiding citizens in this country. I am however surprised that I have not received at least one red one to add to the one from a long gone liberal from this site.
I got that for calling offenders and druggies "****" :shocked:
It's not strange at all. Prisons have yet to become reforming institutions. Until they do we will have high re-offending rates (and yes Punky, I know your example was a non-custodial; I saw that report too and it was far from clear what was going on). Clearly some people revel in violence. I don't - and can't see it as any solution to criminality, except in genuine defence.
I don't generally red rep - but I would certainly not disagree with anyone who did to highlight their opposition to thuggery.,
Escapee you might have got some greens - doesn't surprise my by the neanderthal tone of this debate - but I wouldn't go assuming the law abiding majority are with you (besides you would perjure yourself as well as commit ABH,putting yourself in the law breaking minority). Most people do not feel that summary baseball bat justice is the way forward.
<snip> Most people do not feel that summary baseball bat justice is the way forward.
Andy, sure I get where you are coming from however it *maybe* all these yobs understand though?
Short sharp shock et al?
MovedGoalPosts
31-10-2005, 19:50
Just a reminder that discussion of repping is :notopic:
Andy, sure I get where you are coming from however it *maybe* all these yobs understand though?
Short sharp shock et al? No. it's an easy thing for people to say and for some, clearly, to do. But it is not a solution. It's just plain old fashioned thuggery.
No. it's an easy thing for people to say and for some, clearly, to do. But it is not a solution. It's just plain old fashioned thuggery.
OK, I see your point. So what do you suggest as a solution?
OK, I see your point. So what do you suggest as a solution?
Like I say, the easy thing to do is advocate violence, hanging and flogging etc The hard thing to do is to look at the underlying causes of crime and address them, not least because there is such a strong co-relationship (note, co-relationship not directly causal) between poverty, underprivilege and inequality together with modern pressures on families which, IMO, can undermine good parenting. These kinds of issues cannot be quickly resolved, not least because the political will isn't there and a lot of the media have no interest in promoting such an agenda (in fact rather the opposite)
Unless we understand the causes of criminal and anti-social behaviour we can't begin to prevent, rehabilitate or effectively and appropriately punish it.
I fully expect to be flogged for this post as some liberal do-gooder. I can live with that. As I say, saying that this problem can be resolved through a good kicking is not just barbaric, it is simplistic. So, if you're looking for a quick fix, forget it! ;)
Like I say, the easy thing to do is advocate violence, hanging and flogging etc The hard thing to do is to look at the underlying causes of crime and address them, not least because there is such a strong co-relationship (note, co-relationship not directly causal) between poverty, underprivilege and inequality together with modern pressures on families which, IMO, can undermine good parenting. These kinds of issues cannot be quickly resolved, not least because the political will isn't there and a lot of the media have no interest in promoting such an agenda (in fact rather the opposite)
Unless we understand the causes of criminal and anti-social behaviour we can't begin to prevent, rehabilitate or effectively and appropriately punish it.
I fully expect to be flogged for this post as some liberal do-gooder. I can live with that. As I say, saying that this problem can be resolved through a good kicking is not just barbaric, it is simplistic. So, if you're looking for a quick fix, forget it! ;)
I am not going to flog you because you are a liberal do-gooder, I honestly think you sincerely believe what you say, however I disagree with points to your view.
I disagree that criminal and anti-social behaviour is always linked to poverty, underprivilege and inequality. There has always been phases of trouble caused, such as Mods, Rockers, Punks and other groups, were all of these underprivelidged /poor etc? Did they they travel to Brighton to smash the place and each other up because they were poor?
I think these people followed a cult and grew out of it, I think the current yobs are not growing out of the phase but using it as a platform to a long term criminal way of life. I think the main reason is due to the lack of clamping down on their activity in its early days, by letting them constantly off with a word of warning they are getting the idea (quite rightly) that they can do almost anything and get away with it.
My problem with drug takers in next door is persisting, the police have informed me this evening that the idiots at the council claim they dont own the property and will not secure it. Some of you may remember that I tried to buy the property from them because there is no access except across my land, I am wondering now if its time I should brick the windows up and claim it.
I also had a story from one of the new guys in work today, he was telling me about an incident a few months ago. He came home from work and heard his burglar alarm going, he rushed inot the house to find a burglar rushing out of his rear patio doors and climbing over the fence with his computer, in the process the burglar had dropped all the bank and credit card letters that he had also intended to steal. The burglar dropped the PC off the wall and ran because the police were on the other side, they had been to a couple of other attempted robberies in the street and heard the alarm.
The robber had bite marks on his ankle where a neighbours dog had bit him after he had entered their kitchen. He had moved onto the guys house who I work with, smashed the garage door down, and stole tools to take the patio window out. He apparently had gloves but there were muddy trainer marks all over both kitchen floors and DNA samples available from the dog bite.
The guy has failed to get any luck from the police, they have not proceeded with the prosecution. As he said, we wonder why insurance premiums keep going up and the police keep asking for more council tax money!
There is a co-relationship between poverty and those who commit crime and those who are victims of it. It's not causal but the relationship is strong enough to identify the link. Youth sub-cultures are a different issue around which the media always love to create a moral panic; mods, rockers, punks, new romantics (oh, hold on) and now, of course, hoodies (though not as distinct a sub-culture as others, more a demonisation of a huge chunk of youth). Now we have chavs too, another catch-all.
There is a co-relationship between poverty and those who commit crime and those who are victims of it. It's not causal but the relationship is strong enough to identify the link. Youth sub-cultures are a different issue around which the media always love to create a moral panic; mods, rockers, punks, new romantics (oh, hold on) and now, of course, hoodies (though not as distinct a sub-culture as others, more a demonisation of a huge chunk of youth). Now we have chavs too, another catch-all.
Are you saying only people in poverty cause vandalism and destruction to other peoples property?
I cant see why it would be anything to do with wealth, and around here the vandals have often come from respectable middle class families.
If these yobs I am having problems with were homeless, they would of broken in and been low key for a shelter instead of smashing the place up and drawing attention to themselves. If they were poor and wanted to steal it would be a pointless excersize breaking into a derelict house.
These Yobs are surely classless, just thugs who get a kick out of smashing other peoples property up.
no, I'm saying their is a co-relationship between poverty and crime. The poor are more likely to be convicted and be victims of crime. It is a complex, not a simple issue.
I heard a loud smash on the road about 15 minutes ago, it sounded like a window being put through.
A police car has just arrived all lights blazing and they have gone into the do-gooders house opposite.... It's getting like the wild west, it would terrible of me to think it's something to do with the same bunch of yobs!
If it is I wonder how long this will go on till something is done about it.
timewarrior2001
02-11-2005, 20:30
Well I got in from work today to discover that some little **** has thrown a half paving slab at our conservatory doors.
Not only had they climbed into our back garden they brought the slab with them.
They tried to get into the shed, they tried the house, the one day the dog wasnt there (and only started to be a wednesday 2 weeks ago).
Will I feel sorry for them when I catch them? No
Will I regret what I am going to do to them when I catch them? No
Will I be satisfied by my actions? Very
Do I know who they are? You betcha
etccarmageddon
03-11-2005, 08:10
if the police appear to be or are ineffective then I'm not surprised people feel the need to take matters into their own hands. I imagine it must feel pretty stressful when faced with what escapee and others experience on a regular basis with the police/system not resolving the problem.
Well Escapee's expereience certainly doesn't square with the Wales Tourist Board's view of the Big Country!
If the police are ineffective it still does not excuse summary justice and violent retribution. I'm guessing that people who complain about the police on this site, often do precious little to secure change in the real world.
As for causes. Another indicator - again linked to poverty. Look at literacy rates among offenders. From memory over 50% of prison-leavers have a reading age below 11. Poor education and poor opportunities (along with other factors) do not breed happy bunnies.
....... Look at literacy rates among offenders. From memory over 50% of prison-leavers have a reading age below 11. Poor education and poor opportunities (along with other factors) do not breed happy bunnies.
Ah .. now I get it. It's the fault of the education and prison services !! The poor little blighters can't read the road names and house numbers and think they are entering their own homes :erm:
I know .... send them to school :dozey:
Ah .. now I get it. It's the fault of the education and prison services !! The poor little blighters can't read the road names and house numbers and think they are entering their own homes :erm:
I know .... send them to school :dozey:
Do you think people are born criminals? We create the conditions in which criminality can breed. We need to address those conditions. You might blithely dismiss the importance of literacy, poor schooling etc, but I certainly don't because it is surely no coincidence that the most poorly educated, most deprived people are thoroughly over represented in the criminal justice system.
Do you think people are born criminals? We create the conditions in which criminality can breed. We need to address those conditions. You might blithely dismiss the importance of literacy, poor schooling etc, but I certainly don't because it is surely no coincidence that the most poorly educated, most deprived people are thoroughly over represented in the criminal justice system.
Actually, yes I do - I think everyone is a born criminal, but that's a faith position and I'm not going to try to veer this discussion off topic.
I don't differ from your view so far though Andy, in that I believe our society and upbringing has a large bearing on the way in which our innate criminality manifests itself. Outwardly 'respectable' people are brought up in an environment in which respect and rule of law is valued. (That doesn't stop them misbehaving in other, less blatant ways though). The deprived, who are most visible in our criminal justice system, are simply the ones who have not had the benefit of being taught how to hide their human nature.
An interesting theory!
But yes, the middle classes do have a knack of hiding their criminality - and white collar crime tends to be less reported. Of course criminality itself is a social construct - now that idea could really veer us off in another direction!! ;)
An interesting theory!
Thanks, but I didn't invent it :D
But yes, the middle classes do have a knack of hiding their criminality - and white collar crime tends to be less reported. Of course criminality itself is a social construct - now that idea could really veer us off in another direction!! ;)
It's true that you can't have a crime unless a Law is written that defines the crime. Criminality is therefore a construct of sorts. Not IMO a social construct though. ;)
Do you think people are born criminals? We create the conditions in which criminality can breed. We need to address those conditions. You might blithely dismiss the importance of literacy, poor schooling etc, but I certainly don't because it is surely no coincidence that the most poorly educated, most deprived people are thoroughly over represented in the criminal justice system.
Like Chris T says .. yes I do. We all have choices .. I chose to go to school, to learn to the best of my ability, get a job (not a great job with m.o.r. wages) and live the traditional lifestyle (home, partner, car, kids etc.).
In my youth (like most teens) I got into trouble, but nothing serious. But, and this is the crux, I could have decided to wag off school and live the undoubted exciting 'life of crime'. If I were successful I could no doubt have 'earned' a reasonable living breaking and entering, fencing goods, pushing doubtful substances etc.
Anyone from any background has the choice to go straight or bent. Very few are 'forced' into a life of crime. The support structures in our UK society are robust enough to assist the majority of deprived people until they can support themselves. But it needs effort on both sides, effort the majority of chavs, thugs, whatever you want to call them, will not put in.
OK let's just ignore the strong co-relationship between poverty, deprivation literacy etc and crime and just label people thugs. It will get us precisely nowhere but will allow us to sit atop the moral high ground saying 'Well I didn't turn out a criminal so neither should they." Life ain't that simple and as I've said countless times, if we are serious about reducing crime and anti-social behaviour we have to look at the conditions which encourage it to breed. This is pragmatism, that's all.
Do you think people are born criminals? We create the conditions in which criminality can breed. We need to address those conditions. You might blithely dismiss the importance of literacy, poor schooling etc, but I certainly don't because it is surely no coincidence that the most poorly educated, most deprived people are thoroughly over represented in the criminal justice system.
People are not born criminals, but they can be born into a criminal environment. To break the trend in these sort of families is very difficult, and can only be done by coming down hard on them. I'm sure we all know families where all the brothers, cousing, fathers, grandfathers etc were always in trouble with the law, how do you stop that trend?
I have heard our do-gooder at work with say we should get to the root of the poverty problem, that would stop the need for the poor to steal.
I wonder if he meant give all the criminals government funded luxury items to save them stealing these items. What would happen then, we would get a society of honest people who would be treated as second class citizens, whilst we bribe the crooks to stay out of trouble. I guess the honest law abiding ones would then jump on the bandwagon, because it would be more profitable to be a criminal.
Comparing burglars and vandals to people who use legal loopholes is silly we cant even compare someone who fiddles his tax returns, to someone who breaks inot peoples property, steals and smashes things up.
Burglars, thugs and vandals have a direct affect on society. They often make people scared to leave their home, and in some cases scared to even be in their home. I wonder if the company director who fiddles his tax returns has the same affect on society, I wonder how many pensioners he has roughed up whilst mugging them?
Of course tax avoiders impact on society. The lost revenue - circa £25bn+ a year - could be used to fund all kinds of things, including yout work, facilities, schooling etc... Burglary impacts directly, as I know, but the insidious, indirect impact of tax avoidance affects millions. Break the cycle? How about better resourced schools, more for kids to do, more supervision, more social services intervention, more child care.....
Of course tax avoiders impact on society. The lost revenue - circa £25bn+ a year - could be used to fund all kinds of things, including yout work, facilities, schooling etc... Burglary impacts directly, as I know, but the insidious, indirect impact of tax avoidance affects millions. Break the cycle? How about better resourced schools, more for kids to do, more supervision, more social services intervention, more child care.....
You cant break the cycle with better schools, youth centres or supervision!
No matter what you do to try and put these youngsters on the straight and narrow, they are let down in one very large area.
The ParentsThe Parents
Is it easier for poor or rich parents to bring up kids? long hours, low pay, can't afford child care etc.etc. etc. I agree there are bad parents out there - useless ones - but there are fewer and fewer support mechanisms and less early intervention. Families are more dispersed and work-dependent, so extended family support is often not practical. But there's no other support.
OK let's just ignore the strong co-relationship between poverty, deprivation literacy etc and crime and just label people thugs. It will get us precisely nowhere but will allow us to sit atop the moral high ground saying 'Well I didn't turn out a criminal so neither should they." Life ain't that simple and as I've said countless times, if we are serious about reducing crime and anti-social behaviour we have to look at the conditions which encourage it to breed. This is pragmatism, that's all.
These thugs and vandals aren't deprived ffs !!!! The ones around here have their iPods, mobiles, clean white hoodies and the latest trainers !! Not only that but they usually smoke and drink to excess. I supposed they could have robbed the lot (in many cases they probably did), but why if they are only trying to improve their consumerist lifestyle do they vandalise peoples homes, bus stops, phone boxes and fences ? How does that make them better off ? :erm:
IMO they are just thugs trying to improve their 'street cred.' and tell the world "You can't touch me, I'm tougher than you".
So do you not believe there is a relationship between crime and poverty?
So do you not believe there is a relationship between crime and poverty?
TBH I don't really think true poverty exists amongst these street thugs and chavs. In the main I think they are spoiled brats who just want the latest fashion item without working for it.
The only people who suffer are the victims of these crimes, people who earned what they own only for some moron to nick it / vandalise it and put all our insurance premiums through the roof.
The truly poor and homeless don't, in the main, resort to mindless vandalism, it gets them nowhere.
The major incidence of street robbery, thuggery and vandalsim are down to mindless idiots who can think of nothing better to do than terrorise the public, destroy property and take the p*ss out of our law enforcement agencies.
IMO the only way to deal with that mentality is to mete out like for like.
So you would dismiss the huge body of evidence showing the relationship between poverty and crime?
The difference between us generally, IMO, is that you're dealing with symptoms and I'm looking at cause. I'm not saying poverty causes crime. Being poor does not make you a criminal. But all the baggage that comes with being poor means that the poor are more likley to get caught up in crimes as perpetrators and victims.And violent vigilante action will do nothing to address the causes and probably sod all to the symptoms either.
So you would dismiss the huge body of evidence showing the relationship between poverty and crime?
A link there may be, but a far too simplistic view.
There is probably a link between age and crime, race and crime, sex and crime
etc,etc,etc.
I've said it before - it's not simple. But poveerty breedsall sort of other factors such as education, opportunity etc. It's not, again as I've said before, that poverty causes crime as such, but that there is a relationship between it (and the conditions that come with it) that mean poor people are more likely to be victims and perpetrators of crime. Underprivilege is a common denominator.
So you would dismiss the huge body of evidence showing the relationship between poverty and crime?
The difference between us generally, IMO, is that you're dealing with symptoms and I'm looking at cause. I'm not saying poverty causes crime. Being poor does not make you a criminal. But all the baggage that comes with being poor means that the poor are more likley to get caught up in crimes as perpetrators and victims.And violent vigilante action will do nothing to address the causes and probably sod all to the symptoms either.
Well poverty is relative .. I would say very few, if any, in this country are poor enough they HAVE to resort to crime to survive. Those who are genuinely poor are probably more concerned with survival than vandalism.
It is probably correct that most criminals emanate from less advantaged communities, but my argument is that that in itself does not excuse criminal behaviour and should certainly not be the cause. It IMO is more of a mind set, as I said 'street credibility' or such.
I don't know the answer, but it appears that what law agencies do do is ineffective for the most part and leaves some of us no option but to take the law into our own hands.
The other thing is .. what causes poverty ?
Primary and secondary education is free in this country, as is tertiary education if your family depend on benefits. So there is no excuse not to educate yourself into paid employment.
The reason is again street cred. It is not 'cool' to go to school, let alone do well.
Besides which I know for a fact that many of the yobs and yobettes around here do work (although in menial tasks generally) so they can hardly be described as poor.
Who's excusing anybody?
Poverty may be relative but it certainly exists in this country (a country where, for example. TB is on the rise again) and inequality is widening under this Government. Education may be free but where are the best and worst schools? Who can move houses just to get into a school catchment. Who's schools suffer worst from under-resourcing. Whgich schools have to r=try and mop up and contain the social problems brought into their schools as result of their intake?
I've said countless times that poverty is not a direct cause of crime and have never excused criminal behaviour. But we need to understand the factors that breed criminality and address them. That takes political will which simply isn't there. All we get currently is banal Daily Mail inspired tough-talking rhetoric and the often absurd issuing of ASBOs which leads to the criminalisation of a host of people who are no doubt better off being dealt with elsewhere - but the resources aren't there.
Just because you work, does not mean you are not poor. My mate works his **** off but through no fault of his own gets paid sod all as does his wife. He's been totally brassic for weeks. And I mean brassic. There are many, many others in similar situations.
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