View Full Version : Capping & Cloning
After reading various posts in various topics not just on this forum but in others... I see that NTL have started to send out letters to customers who have been "abusing" their broadband connection. As you may altready know, NTL are to reduce their speed to 512k unlimited for £17.99. (I can see that service lasting... not!) Shouldn't NTL be trying to stop the illegal usage of cloned boxes and modems as well? surely these will also be degrading the network as I reckon most people using them, and there must be thousands! Are downloading 100's of gigabytes a month.
So for every legal paying customer that NTL crack down on and limit, there's another illegal cloned box being installed somewhere near you! what can if anything be done about it?
Where NTL know about cloned/chipped boxes, they can and do take action against the person using the box.
as I reckon most people using them, and there must be thousands!.
So for every legal paying customer that NTL crack down on and limit, there's another illegal cloned box being installed somewhere near you! what can if anything be done about it?I think you are grossly over estimating.
Most people ? I don't think so. ntl will be well aware how many devices are on their network, and how many are being billed. I doubt more than a very low percent are illegal. If it were 50% or more as you seem to suggest - they would be out of business in weeks.
orangebird
13-10-2005, 09:58
After reading various posts in various topics not just on this forum but in others... I see that NTL have started to send out letters to customers who have been "abusing" their broadband connection. As you may altready know, NTL are to reduce their speed to 512k unlimited for £17.99. (I can see that service lasting... not!) Shouldn't NTL be trying to stop the illegal usage of cloned boxes and modems as well? surely these will also be degrading the network as I reckon most people using them, and there must be thousands! Are downloading 100's of gigabytes a month.
So for every legal paying customer that NTL crack down on and limit, there's another illegal cloned box being installed somewhere near you! what can if anything be done about it?
I replied to you about this yesterday on TOS. ntl are constantly dealing with those in receipt of illegally gotten services. Why do you feel the need to have to come over here and post about it too? You've gone and gotten the same answers....:rolleyes:
I think you are grossly over estimating.
Most people ? I don't think so. ntl will be well aware how many devices are on their network, and how many are being billed. I doubt more than a very low percent are illegal. If it were 50% or more as you seem to suggest - they would be out of business in weeks.
Ok, I might have over estimated the amount of illegal users that are heavy downloaders? But as for the amount of cloned boxes that are actually in use, I reckon there are thousands, so even if the percentage of people who have them dont download huge amounts, it still will have a massive effect on NTL's network and obviously the end user.
I'm sure if I were to get over my Cap and got "downgraded", just telling them I'm going to be leaving NTL, would probably get them to put me back up again.
I'm sure if I were to get over my Cap and got "downgraded", just telling them I'm going to be leaving NTL, would probably get them to put me back up again.
I disagree-the very fact they have downgraded you for abusing the service would indicate that you're not the sort of customer they want.
I disagree-the very fact they have downgraded you for abusing the service would indicate that you're not the sort of customer they want.
rubbish, if they wanted rid they would of got rid not downgraded,
another forum, person i know, got his downgrade letter to 512k, he phoned up said whats going on and they said he should of got a letter warning him, so he said he never so they said sorry and gave him 1 months free 3m BB and said not to worry we won't downgrade you this time,
in the mean time his 2 cloned modems are download 6megs, whilst he is going to use the offical one and keep within the cap.
So there you go, normal people paying for clone modem users who get away with it
rubbish
It's not rubbish at all, it's my opinion & I know ntl quite well enough to form that opinion thanks.
if they wanted rid they would of got rid not downgraded
Could, not necessarily would.
another forum, person i know, got his downgrade letter to 512k, he phoned up said whats going on and they said he should of got a letter warning him, so he said he never so they said sorry and gave him 1 months free 3m BB and said not to worry we won't downgrade you this time
So he lied & cheated ntl? That's impressive (not)
in the mean time his 2 cloned modems are download 6megs, whilst he is going to use the offical one and keep within the cap.
Really? Again, impressive (not)
So there you go, normal people paying for clone modem users who get away with it
And your point is?
There's people cheating in every walk of life.
mcmanic, if you report this guy to NTL, I am sure they will do something.
maverick
13-10-2005, 13:24
rubbish, if they wanted rid they would of got rid not downgraded,
another forum, person i know, got his downgrade letter to 512k, he phoned up said whats going on and they said he should of got a letter warning him, so he said he never so they said sorry and gave him 1 months free 3m BB and said not to worry we won't downgrade you this time,
in the mean time his 2 cloned modems are download 6megs, whilst he is going to use the offical one and keep within the cap.
So there you go, normal people paying for clone modem users who get away with it
3 modems running off 1 catv will stand out a mile :Yikes: ,if he has had a letter advising of the 512 downgrade then i dont care what retentions have said the downgrade it out of their hands.
NTL do nothing about cloned modems. They are big business in my area. I know 100s who use them. Most dont even pay NTL for any service. Free TV and Internet and nothing is done about it, while those who download what NTL deem to be too much get punished.
Hans Gruber
13-10-2005, 14:06
another forum, person i know, got his downgrade letter to 512k, he phoned up said whats going on and they said he should of got a letter warning him, so he said he never so they said sorry and gave him 1 months free 3m BB and said not to worry we won't downgrade you this time
I wonder how long you could pull that one off on the 10mbit service :p
maverick
13-10-2005, 14:16
NTL do nothing about cloned modems. They are big business in my area. I know 100s who use them. Most dont even pay NTL for any service. Free TV and Internet and nothing is done about it, while those who download what NTL deem to be too much get punished.
Then do something about it,you seem concerned contact NTL and give them a couple of names of 100's you know.
yeah right. Whilst i dont agree with people who dont pay for their services, to be a grass is so much worse.
Then do something about it,you seem concerned contact NTL and give them a couple of names of 100's you know.
Here here, hang on, let me wash my hair, there appears to be enough puff round here :D
orangebird
13-10-2005, 14:36
yeah right. Whilst i dont agree with people who dont pay for their services, to be a grass is so much worse.
So you don't mind inflated prices that you, the honest customer has to pay because some ********* choose to steal hardware and services. :scratch:
yeah right. Whilst i dont agree with people who dont pay for their services, to be a grass is so much worse.
Look at it this way, if you do know 100s of people who are using the modems illegally, then you are almost certainly paying extra to cover them. How much depends on how much they are using and how many customers NTL have on your network.
Look at it this way, if you do know 100s of people who are using the modems illegally, then you are almost certainly paying extra to cover them. How much depends on how much they are using and how many customers NTL have on your network.
AND, if they are in your area, they are using up your contention ratio, or your share of the bandwidth.
So why dont NTL do something about it?? Why should i do their work for them when they are doing me no favours imposing caps etc. My bandwidth is fine. There has never been a problem with my connection. My only problem with NTL is they punish their paying customers but do nothing about non paying customers. Still id rather pay extra money than be a grass.
Just spoke to NTL about the 2nd letter that has been sent out. Basically the guy said that the 512k option is the only way and that they can't offer me anything else. Asked him if thereother packages and he said no. After stating that there are other companies offering Unlimited BB he said he could put me through to the diconnection team.
After explaining that I had been with NTL since the dial up days - he couldnt give a **** and said thats they way it is.
Good luck to everyone!
Pudders
have 12month contract with them can i leave and not have to pay the rest of the contract term if they put me on 512?
cnewton2k
13-10-2005, 16:55
You should be able to yes
damm right you can, they changed your contract not you
yeah right. Whilst i dont agree with people who dont pay for their services, to be a grass is so much worse.
i hope you like your billl as YOUR are paying for all your mates .
that is if you get one !!!!!:dozey:
kinda takes the mick someone can steal a faster service than a paying customer can get and for free (free as in piracy).
i've heard hear say about a guy soemwhere near me claiming to be leaching 10 meg by bumping his mac on the modem or something again hear say so i cant varify this. although my source is reliable i dont know about the guy making the claim.
i hope you like your billl as YOUR are paying for all your mates .
that is if you get one !!!!!:dozey:
They are not my mates. I never said they were. I dont agree with what they are doing at all and i said that. I just wont grass them up cos that would make me worse than them. Anyway, youll be helping me pay the bill.
They are not my mates. I never said they were. I dont agree with what they are doing at all and i said that. I just wont grass them up cos that would make me worse than them. Anyway, youll be helping me pay the bill.
ok tell me and i will tell ntl . i do not care if it will get me some cash of my /your bill .
Fair play to you. You wanna be a low life grass then thats up to you, but you really think NTL will take money off our bills if they catch a few thives?
thank you . :) you never know . till you try .
DaggaDagga
13-10-2005, 21:08
Hello all. I've been reading this forum almost daily for a long time, and have had NTL broadband for years (legally, I emphasise!). I couldn't help but sign up and reply on this thread.
I have also been concerned about the amount of fraud going on on NTL's network. If you want free broadband then I understand it's not too difficult.
If you want full access to all the TV channels, with a better STB than NTL's own then you only have to search ebay for the right word (I won't say what) and you'll find a list of German STBs ready to plug into NTL's network for around the price of a month's TV subscription.
Let's not pretend that NTL would reduce any prices if they stopped the fraud. They charge as much as they can get away with, priced to compete with the ADSL providers and Sky TV.
I don't believe that NTL would be able to detect a modem with a cloned MAC address, and the STBs from Ebay are impossible to detect, as they don't transmit anything back up the cable. They can not press a button and see the percentage of dodgy users that are out there. I suspect that they're under-estimating the problem by a large margin.
It all reminds me of the old ITV Digital fraud. I know that there were other factors in their downfall, but what started out as a few people with hacked boxes spread like a plague and was huge when the company went bust. This must have been a factor in their downfall.
NTL need to very quickly take major action to stop this. I'm no expert but they must be able to crank up their TV encryption to stop the Ebay STBs - Sky does not have any similar problems. Similarly, there must also be something they can do to stop the free broadband. Otherwise, the paying customers start to find it difficult to justify continuing to pay for what it seems like everyone else is getting for free (and getting away with it).
Grassing up one person would be a drop in the ocean. NTL needs to take much more drastic steps to combat this, before it starts to seriously suffer financially.
Just my thoughts. Please tell me I'm talking cr@p!
detecting a cloned modem whouldent be imposible scanning for mac addrresse that show up more than once whould revel them then the results could be crossrefernced with the client database to find whcih is the real one then by tracking through there routers and ubrs they couldlocate the area of the cloned modem and ifneeded nplug it at the "green box".
im prety sure that the tv boxes do use some upstream conection to ntl but i dont knwo enough about the technology to elaborate
DaggaDagga
13-10-2005, 21:24
It sounds like a lot of effort to detect one dodgy subscriber. There must be a way they would improve their technology (i.e. prevention), rather than relying on catching the odd one every now and then.
they don't , they have the talkback cut, you still need the orginal box, the new one unscrambles the encrypted signals and automatically generates keys as and when, and yes its a major thing now, even to the point that normal people are asking where to get them because really they ain't that costly now
DaggaDagga
13-10-2005, 21:39
You don't even need an NTL box any more, that was last year's method! There's a German STB in limitless supply that will get every channel, even PPV movies. These are simple to get hold of. AFAIK, there is nothing illegal about supplying them, so NTL are powerless to stop it.
There's even a version with a built-in hard disk, custom-made by a UK company! Sky+ for NTL, with none of that nasty subscription stuff!
They really need to get a grip on this - it's almost out of control already.
so just to clear this up for me but these people with cloned modems and hax0red stb have to actually of paid for an ntl guy to come round and hook them up sometime? and then what they cancel and just plug their own kit in? or do they walk outside grab some wires and do it all them selves
Hang on - Sky is meant to have one of the most advanced anti piracy systems. The only difference is the delivery - but how much difference does that make? The only thing i can see restricting using better encryption is the power in the boxes. I suppose at some point they must have weighed the cost of more powerfull STBs against the piracy rate, and gone with the cheaper box option.
I don't believe that NTL would be able to detect a modem with a cloned MAC address
On the contrary, it's remarkably easy. Further details will not be gone into, obviously, but it's not difficult, a smallish modern server and a bit of perl can do it in under a minute.
DaggaDagga
13-10-2005, 22:18
To get the cable connected, there are two possibilities:
1. Live in a house where the previous resident had NTL. I know someone who bought a house several years ago. It has a cable point, they have never subscribed to anything. It is connected. I know that they are using the cable as an analogue aerial. This is a bit dodgy in itself, but it's hardly the fraud of the century. If they were so inclined, they could plug in as many dodgy STBs and modems as they like.
2. Get the cheapest TV or broadband subscription, then steal everything. Cancel this subscription after a year, if they actually get round to disconnecting it (not very likely) then subscribe again.
__________________
On the contrary, it's remarkably easy. Further details will not be gone into, obviously, but it's not difficult, a smallish modern server and a bit of perl can do it in under a minute.
Why don't they do it then? Do NTL even have a department that is solely in charge of monitoring the freeloaders? Anyone from NTL could search google, ebay etc and easily see that there is a major problem.
NTL do nothing about cloned modems. They are big business in my area. I know 100s who use them. Most dont even pay NTL for any service. Free TV and Internet and nothing is done about it, while those who download what NTL deem to be too much get punished.
As has already been said and will continue to be said, the cloning of modems and selling of chipped boxes is well know about in NTL, as you can imagine the issue is looked into and they will prosecute when found. But that is the problem, if your saying you know people who are doing it then why don't you help out and do something about it!
DaggaDagga
13-10-2005, 22:41
I don't personally know anyone using this gear, but if I did then I honestly doubt whether I would turn them over. I don't think many people would, and it would be a mistake for any company to hope that people would do the right thing, especially as this fraud doesn't harm them personally. Most people find it difficult to care about a large PLC that takes money off them every month!
It's down to NTL to make their systems secure to prevent them losing revenue. I haven't seen many signs of them doing this.
In the past, Sky have changed their encryption and sent out new subscriber cards to all their customers whenever their system has been hacked. Why can't NTL do something similar? Or would all new STBs be needed?
Chrysalis
13-10-2005, 23:37
I havent previously said much on this but I agree with whats been said, I think the problem is much worse then anticipated. In my area there are people selling dodgy STB's in the school playground and I think ntl tv fraud is rampant. Cloning seems to be of lower numbers as I think its round less social circles on how to do it but is another problem that shouldnt be ignored especially when we start having cloned 10mbit sessions.
The big problem is I think the only way people get caught is when they are grassed up, there seems to be no technology like a scanner that is continously looking for these freeloader's and no manpower either. I dont know if prices would be lower, I think they would be for the base tv pack at least, the base pack is probably charged higher then needed because ntl know many people will subscribe to that at least even if they are stealing premium content. I think premium prices and broadband would be unaffected, possibly just higher broadband caps.
dark0neb0
14-10-2005, 00:54
I don't personally know anyone using this gear, but if I did then I honestly doubt whether I would turn them over. I don't think many people would, and it would be a mistake for any company to hope that people would do the right thing, especially as this fraud doesn't harm them personally. Most people find it difficult to care about a large PLC that takes money off them every month!
It's down to NTL to make their systems secure to prevent them losing revenue. I haven't seen many signs of them doing this.
In the past, Sky have changed their encryption and sent out new subscriber cards to all their customers whenever their system has been hacked. Why can't NTL do something similar? Or would all new STBs be needed?
i agree, it shouldnt be us doing the work for them. they have our money at the end of the month, we worked hard to earn the goal of a paycheck... so NTL must work hard to earn the goal of MORE CUSTOMERS, LESS BOOTLEGS.
afaik, the protection logic is stored inside the STB / dumb-card, theres nothing on NTL's end deciding what is valid, all the channels are sent regardless, this is why those 'german boxes' will work fine over here... its like tuning in a radio.
its mostly NTL engineers that sell the modded stuff because they have it to hand, if not them its a messenger for them. NTL is getting bummed by its own cock, lol.
as long as im not paying anymore because of their errors, i dont really care... i have my own issues to take care of.
I replied to you about this yesterday on TOS. ntl are constantly dealing with those in receipt of illegally gotten services. Why do you feel the need to have to come over here and post about it too? You've gone and gotten the same answers....:rolleyes:
:doh: What's she like... :D
:doh: What's she like... :D
:D very nice actually :)
DaggaDagga
14-10-2005, 12:23
:doh: What's she like... :D
Naughty, naughty boy!
What's TOS?
What's TOS? Dont really know... The Other Side?
orangebird
14-10-2005, 13:45
Dont really know... The Other Side?
The Other Site (ie ntl:hell)
The Other Site (ie ntl:hell) Thought so.
th'engineer
14-10-2005, 17:44
:D very nice actually :)
She is very nice got to agree with that shes a stunner
maverick
14-10-2005, 18:17
How about a pic then orangebird :angel:
zoombini
14-10-2005, 21:15
Of course, if there was to be some incentive to shop someone using illegal modems etc, like 3 months free service etc then I'm sure people might do it.
and a pair of crutches and bandages for when the person finds out its you that grassed as to know they have cloned modems or free Tv normally you know the person and they have told/bragged to you about it.
zoombini
15-10-2005, 23:41
And even given you free Tv etc... lol
Now if only I had a spare NTL modem.. lol
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