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Macca371
11-10-2005, 00:05
Been thinking philsophically here, let's see what you think. :erm:

Basically, is there any completely selfless act possible? Standing up for old people on the bus to let them sit, for example, - would we do it if it didn't make us feel better about ourselves? Absolutely everything that you do, you do it because you want to. Somebody said what about having to decide whether you die or somebody you love had to die. If you chose to have yourself killed instead, why would you actually be doing this? Yes, technically it is selfless because you are destroying yourself to save somebody else. But the reason why you would do this? Is it not because you don't want to see the person you love suffer, is it not because you don't want that person to die - is it not fundamentally about what we want and not other people?

Therefore, do we all just follow what we want to do? Aren't we just slaves to what we want? Do we actually have free will? :Yikes: :Yikes: :confused: :confused:

Mr_love_monkey
11-10-2005, 00:11
Been thinking philsophically here, let's see what you think. :erm:

Basically, is there any completely selfless act possible? Standing up for old people on the bus to let them sit, for example, - would we do it if it didn't make us feel better about ourselves? Absolutely everything that you do, you do it because you want to. Somebody said what about having to decide whether you die or somebody you love had to die. If you chose to have yourself killed instead, why would you actually be doing this? Yes, technically it is selfless because you are destroying yourself to save somebody else. But the reason why you would do this? Is it not because you don't want to see the person you love suffer, is it not because you don't want that person to die - is it not fundamentally about what we want and not other people?

Therefore, do we all just follow what we want to do? Aren't we just slaves to what we want? Do we actually have free will? :Yikes: :Yikes: :confused: :confused:

You should try reading 'The selfish Gene' by Richard Dawkins - he covers the issue of altruistic actions - truly selfless acts.
His arguement is, is that there is no such thing, since on some genetic level you are helping yourself, or your genes.
For example, saving a loved one, such as a child or a sibling, ensures your genes carry on existing - even saving (for example) a complete stranger from drowning could be viewed that way - he said it's entirely possible that in that split second before you act, on a genetic level your body is able to asses whether or not that person is in someway distantly related to you, and by saving them you would be helping your genetic code to carry on.

Angua
11-10-2005, 00:16
I think where free will comes in to the equasion is the ability to fit what we want around other peoples wants and the methods we use. There are those that will ride roughshod over others and reach their goal not caring whether they are liked or not, and perhaps having a very narrow life as a result. And those who will consider others because they want to be liked but will perhaps not reach their goals and have a richer life as a result.

Pia
11-10-2005, 00:27
Are we all truly selfish in everything we do?

I think so... Every human, mammal, insect animal etc is too..

marky
11-10-2005, 00:28
If a person with a gun gave me the choice who was to die between myself and a person i didnt know, i would choose myself, because i couldnt sentence the other person ;)

Pia
11-10-2005, 00:31
If a person with a gun gave me the choice who was to die between myself and a person i didnt know, i would choose myself, because i couldnt sentence the other person ;)

I would let the other person die. Would the other person die for you?

Anyway i would, mainly for my son because i wouldnt like him to grow up without me..

marky
11-10-2005, 00:34
I would let the other person die. Would the other person die for you?

Anyway i would, mainly for my son because i wouldnt like him to grow up without me.. I dont care what the other person would or would not do, its what i would do.

Jon M
11-10-2005, 00:34
even saving (for example) a complete stranger from drowning could be viewed that way - he said it's entirely possible that in that split second before you act, on a genetic level your body is able to asses whether or not that person is in someway distantly related to you, and by saving them you would be helping your genetic code to carry on. :erm: :disturbd: :rofl:

Granted I'm not Mr.Dawkins number one fan, but that is just beyond funny.

Graham
11-10-2005, 00:34
Been thinking philsophically here, let's see what you think. :erm:

Basically, is there any completely selfless act possible?

Well, for me, giving blood is completely unselfish because I get nothing from it (apart from a cup of orange squash and some Bourbon biscuits! :) )

I have no *reason* to give blood, no benefit accrues to me, but I do it because it will help others.

Pia
11-10-2005, 00:36
Then again, i think the circumstances would change my thoughts anyhow- i suppose its never a clear cut answer.
For example- what if the other person was a child? Or your mother?
I hope nobody i know will ever been in that position anyhow..

Paul
11-10-2005, 00:36
If a person with a gun gave me the choice who was to die between myself and a person i didnt know, i would choose myself, because i couldnt sentence the other person ;)Not me I'm afraid, I would choose the other person without much hesitation, and if this were ever to really happen, most people would, whatever they might say atm. Self preservation .......

Macca371
11-10-2005, 00:40
Well, for me, giving blood is completely unselfish because I get nothing from it (apart from a cup of orange squash and some Bourbon biscuits! :) )

I have no *reason* to give blood, no benefit accrues to me, but I do it because it will help others.

There must be some reason. Does it make you feel better about yourself knowing you have given blood?

Jon M
11-10-2005, 00:41
Time to be more constructive than my last post...

It's impossible for any of us to be objective over this subject, because any stance you take on the origin or source of life, morality, good or evil will affect whether you think true selflessness is possible.

Personally, I'm totally unashamed to say that I think it very much IS possible and that my bias is that I believe that we all have the capacity to do both good and evil, to be selfish and unselfish.

It's up to everyone to decide for themselves what the truth about our world and universe is and to act upon that conviction.

homealone
11-10-2005, 00:47
what a difficult question?

one answer is no, but ..

another is yes, but...

so without a clear answer, is the thread doomed to discussion of the buts? - bummer :D

danielf
11-10-2005, 00:54
I would think that generally, people are selfish in that they do things because they get some gain from it or because it makes them feel good (and that includes giving blood, Graham). If however someone in a combat situation takes a bullet for his mate that has wife and kids, and that is considered selfish because the person taking the bullet does not want the other bloke's kids and wife to suffer rather than not wanting him to die, I think we're just changing the definition of selfishness.

kronas
11-10-2005, 00:55
my two cents, i personally think that the majority of people do things in much a slefish manner, indeed to get their own way, such as negotiating times around television schedules with other people around the house, now your not going to miss your favorite program are you ?

selfishness can come to a personal coherance with the way people do things in their lives such as offspring leaving their holmes and objections from parents, relationships fuelled with a level of hatred for one of the partners for reasons which maybe selfish themselves such as a personal likeing for that person, you just want to ruin the relationship, our own actions such as these play a pivotal road to the way we do things in life, everyone has a selfish side, some more so than others.

in the end you only have one life and its my personal perspective to help others and help yourself, ive put myself out for people and gained things, but the one thing i have learned is that deep down sometimes you have to be selfish to achieve your goals, what you really chase in life, whether it be money, fame, relationships, sometimes you have to bow down to your own self creedance and draw the line between being selfish and fair, but some people out there optimise slefishness...

Graham
11-10-2005, 03:04
Well, for me, giving blood is completely unselfish because I get nothing from it (apart from a cup of orange squash and some Bourbon biscuits! :) )

I have no *reason* to give blood, no benefit accrues to me, but I do it because it will help others.

There must be some reason. Does it make you feel better about yourself knowing you have given blood?

Let me clarify, I get nothing *from anyone else* for doing it.

Practically everything else has some form of quid pro quo, them owing me something (even if it's only a bit of goodwill), maybe changing someone's viewpoint on a subject, whatever.

There's nothing of that from giving blood.

AndrewJ
11-10-2005, 03:57
farts now that is selfish, pleases you offends others and helps in a tiny tiny way to global warming.

Ramrod
11-10-2005, 09:22
Well, for me, giving blood is completely unselfish because I get nothing from it (apart from a cup of orange squash and some Bourbon biscuits! :) )

I have no *reason* to give blood, no benefit accrues to me, but I do it because it will help others.Does helping others make you happy/feel good? If so, then it's not a truly altruistic act......

basa
11-10-2005, 09:45
Absolutely everything that you do, you do it because you want to.

Can't concur with that statement .. I had to attend Crown Court earlier this year (don't ask) but I absolutely assure you I did not want to !! Also I don't think I would go to work if I didn't have to !!
__________________

For example, saving a loved one, such as a child or a sibling, ensures your genes carry on existing -

I don't give a t*ss about my genes (really), I would sacrifice myself willingly to save my daughters because I love them, could not live without them and think they have more rights to life than I have (I've lived a good life up to now .. they haven't yet had the chance) and no other reason.

orangebird
11-10-2005, 09:50
Well, for me, giving blood is completely unselfish because I get nothing from it (apart from a cup of orange squash and some Bourbon biscuits! :) )

I have no *reason* to give blood, no benefit accrues to me, but I do it because it will help others.

Same here. I don't like needles very much. I bruise like a peach. I border on anaemia so I have to have a blood test before I give blood every time (another needle...). I don't give blood because I like to or that it makes me feel good. I give blood because it's needed.

Nugget
11-10-2005, 09:51
There must be some reason. Does it make you feel better about yourself knowing you have given blood?

It doesn't make me feel better about myself (sometimes, they really stick you with that needle).

I give blood because I believe that it's the right thing to do, not to inflate my ego (which, trust me, doesn't need it at all ;) )

Ramrod
11-10-2005, 12:11
Can't concur with that statement .. I had to attend Crown Court earlier this year (don't ask) but I absolutely assure you I did not want to !! Also I don't think I would go to work if I didn't have to !!
You were forced to go.........so that falls outside of this threads area of discussion.
Now if you had gone in spite of not being forced.......

Angua
11-10-2005, 12:22
Well, for me, giving blood is completely unselfish because I get nothing from it (apart from a cup of orange squash and some Bourbon biscuits! :) )

I have no *reason* to give blood, no benefit accrues to me, but I do it because it will help others.

Should you yourself need blood later you can rest easy in the knowledge you have at least given your share, thus avoiding guilt (not that you have ever come across as someone who suffers from a guilty concience). ;)

If we do the right thing for selfish reasons is that so bad? I would say such is how the world goes round in a more pleasant and harmonius way.

Ramrod
11-10-2005, 12:31
If we do the right thing for selfish reasons is that so bad?Nothing wrong with that.....I treat a lot of my patients for free from time to time--I like to help them out-makes me feel good!

Nugget
11-10-2005, 12:34
Nothing wrong with that.....I treat a lot of my patients for free from time to time--I like to help them out-makes me feel good!

And encourages 'em to pay more next time, eh?

I've seen through your plan, birthday boy :D

Bex
11-10-2005, 12:46
have you seen the "Friends" episode where they deal with this exact question? phoboe thinks that selfless acts are possible but everything she does, the others say that she has found some happiness in it. good episode

again, with a lot of philosophical topics, i studied this subject in my 5 years of study. I do believe that some acts are selfless, not self serving and not selfish. Does an act only become selfish, after the fact? for example, you see a toddler about to run in front of a bus, and you pull the child back from the path of impact, at that moment of the act you do not do it for any other reason but to save the child. It is selfless, but once the parents acknowledge what you have done for their son, you get praise and are seen as a hero thus getting something back from you're action and thus possibly making it selfish?

How about carrying a donor card? knowing that on you're death you want to help other people to live their lives, is this a selfish act? or is it as someone said, with reference to "the selfish gene", a selfish act because the human population is able to continue, or is it a selfless act because, at the end of the day, you don't gain anything from it??
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Therefore, do we all just follow what we want to do? Aren't we just slaves to what we want? Do we actually have free will?
Surely following what we want to do, shows that we do have free will? Free will in essence is that we are able, and capable of making our own decisions, thus by following what we want to do we are proving our free will.

or you could be saying that the way we are, determines us to act in a certain way...thus the possibility of discounting our free will

orangebird
11-10-2005, 12:49
You should try reading 'The selfish Gene' by Richard Dawkins - he covers the issue of altruistic actions - truly selfless acts.
His arguement is, is that there is no such thing, since on some genetic level you are helping yourself, or your genes.
For example, saving a loved one, such as a child or a sibling, ensures your genes carry on existing - even saving (for example) a complete stranger from drowning could be viewed that way - he said it's entirely possible that in that split second before you act, on a genetic level your body is able to asses whether or not that person is in someway distantly related to you, and by saving them you would be helping your genetic code to carry on.

Are you serious? :rofl: :rofl: This Dawkins guy sounds like comic genius. Where do I find the book, in the humour section?

basa
11-10-2005, 13:37
You were forced to go.........so that falls outside of this threads area of discussion.
Now if you had gone in spite of not being forced.......

I agree, I had no choice, but Diamond did say "Absolutely everything that you do, you do it because you want to.".

I was being very pedantic, but perhaps he could have said "Absolutely everything you choose to do, you do because you want to", which IMO puts a very different slant on the altruistic element.

Jules
11-10-2005, 13:44
I like to think that there are times I do things not in a selfwish way or for what I get out of it but because it is the right thing to do

Angua
11-10-2005, 13:57
Certainly some of the recipients of the Victoria Cross could be classed as acting truly unselfishly. Simply because their actions were so instinctual rather than having any thought given to it.

Ramrod
11-10-2005, 14:05
I agree, I had no choice, but Diamond did say "Absolutely everything that you do, you do it because you want to.".

I was being very pedantic, but perhaps he could have said "Absolutely everything you choose to do, you do because you want to", which IMO puts a very different slant on the altruistic element.Good point! He obviously misworded the original argument imo.

Bex
11-10-2005, 14:17
Certainly some of the recipients of the Victoria Cross could be classed as acting truly unselfishly. Simply because their actions were so instinctual rather than having any thought given to it.

exactly the point i was trying to make, instinctual acts... they are unselfish at the time of the act, but could you go further, for the sake of argument, and say once praise and hero status is assigned, the act, in retrospect, is no longer unselfish?

basa
11-10-2005, 14:29
On thinking more on this, I would suggest many people, especially husbands, wives and parents do many un-selfish acts every day.

Ask yourself when you want steak pie and chips for dinner and your partner and kids want veggie pizza, if you choose the pizza to reduce the amount of cooking your parner has to do, is that un-selfish ?

If you want to watch the Grand Prix but she wants you to stay and watch "How Clean is Your House" is it un-selfish to stay ?

Your eldest wants your last recordable CD for the next batch of mp3s she's downloaded, but you need it for backup, if you give her the CD, is that un-selfish ?

You want to surf and download the latest version of a proggie, but she's fed up with the 'tap, tap, clickety, click' is it un-selfish to turn off ?

"Marrieds with kids" do this daily.

Macca371
11-10-2005, 15:14
I don't think I explained it properly. Hmm, maybe there are selfless acts. Who knows. My head hurts. :confused::dozey:

Angua
11-10-2005, 15:21
I don't think I explained it properly. Hmm, maybe there are selfless acts. Who knows. My head hurts. :confused::dozey:


I would say most of the time most of what we do when we are thinking about it has a basis in self interest. However what raises up the human race is those unconcious selfless acts that I believe everyone is capable of given the right circumstances.

Graham
11-10-2005, 21:04
I have no *reason* to give blood, no benefit accrues to me, but I do it because it will help others.

Should you yourself need blood later you can rest easy in the knowledge you have at least given your share, thus avoiding guilt

For all I know I have been given blood when I was in hospital a couple of times as a kid, but that had no bearing on my decision to donate.

(not that you have ever come across as someone who suffers from a guilty concience). ;)

What do I have to feel guilty about?! :)

If we do the right thing for selfish reasons is that so bad? I would say such is how the world goes round in a more pleasant and harmonius way.

The question then becomes what is the "right thing"? For an extreme example (and *NOT* one I am trying to start again!!) we've already argued ad nauseum on here about whether the invasion of Iraq was the "right thing" to do. Yes, it got rid of Saddam Hussein, but at the probably expense of making the situation a lot worse in other ways.

So did the ends justify the means? Was it the right thing to do or not? There's no "right" (hah!) answer to that one! (So, please, let's *NOT* discuss it! :) )

Angua
12-10-2005, 10:13
<snip>
What do I have to feel guilty about?! :)
<snip>


There are people in this world who go round feeling guilty for no reason what so ever. i.e. someone who has been a doormat all their married life suddenly gets the courage to stand up for themselves and then prompty feels guilty about it and wallows in self pity. This type of selfishness I find hardest to cope with.

And this is not the type of person you struck me as :)

Maggy
12-10-2005, 11:59
We are the imperfect element in a perfect world.

timewarrior2001
12-10-2005, 12:12
I guess it depends what mood I am in.

Sometimes I can be caring, other times I can be an evil son of a female dog.

I have laughed out loud at people falling in the street, other times I have managed to catch them before they hurt themselves.
I've dragged people up off the floor in a mosh pit at Monsters of rock, probably saving their lives, and then I have dived into a human pyramid in same place causing it to collapse.

I've stopped to help women that have broken down and even towed one to a garage. Sometimes I have been given a mouthfull for stopping.
I've assisted the police, but more times I have been awkward with them.

The most important thing I did was intervene in an incident where two men were chasing a young woman. I very nearly got done for Abh and Drunk and disorderly. That was a truelly selfless act, I really thought she would be raped and I didnt think twice about it.

Theres no even thing, no one can say they will do something, you can try and always do something, but like holding doors open, sometimes poeple are just too far behind so you dont always hold doors open.

Graham
12-10-2005, 15:44
<snip>
What do I have to feel guilty about?! :)
<snip>

There are people in this world who go round feeling guilty for no reason what so ever.

Yes, but I'm not a Catholic :notme: ;)