View Full Version : Above international law
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3203955.stm
So, Iraq defies the UN and the US demand it gets bombed back to the stoneage because of it. Israel does the same, persecutes 100,000's of palestinians and squat happens....... so much for the US being the defender of the free. :2up:
Reading This (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2930785.stm) article leaves me with a mental image of the jewish ghettos in 1940's germany. no rights, having their possessions taken from them by force, locked away and living in fear of their lives..... funny how history repeats itself isnt it......
Israel never ceases to amaze me.
Of all the nations that should be sympathetic to other races' rights and persecutions, Israel should be at the top!
I just hope they hurry up and bring Sharon up on the war crimes he committed
TigaSefi
22-10-2003, 16:48
oh yes and we conviently forgets what happens when we relax the borders and all hell let loose in our country :( :2up:
homealone
22-10-2003, 16:52
I agree, Mark W, it's about time Israel was universally condemned for seeking a solution to the problems, based only on their own agenda.
While I can't condone the terrorist activities of the Palestinians, I do have some sympathy with the helplessness they must feel...
This quote from one of the news articles you mentioned said it for me
Mr Juma says: "If only the Israelis had taken the decision to make the Wall along the Green Line, and abandoned the settlements built illegally on occupied land.
"Then we, the Palestinians, would probably have offered to help them build it."
oh yes and we conviently forgets what happens when we relax the borders and all hell let loose in our country :( :2up:
ahhh...so taking someone elses land, destroying their homes and farmland. and COMPLETLY surrounding their cities with an impassable wall - apart from one heavily controlled access road - is a way to calm things down in a just fashion is it? :rolleyes:
Homealone - i agree, that last quote sums it all up......
Mark, a question that (I hope) may answer yours..
Does Isreal have large stocks of oil for the US to plunder?
TigaSefi
22-10-2003, 16:57
well I can remember the last long thread about this and we went round in circles and basically I ain't got the time of the day to re iterate my standpoint all over again except the wall is pretty bad really but we REALLY need something to stop the terrorists from the palestinians areas getting into Israel. And I do accept the majority of peaceful palestinians have nothing to do with it BUT THEY REALLY must get some grip on the situation of terrorists living there and drive them out and for this lack of action I blame Arafat. He is the problem.
TigaSefi
22-10-2003, 16:58
There is very little or no oil for anyone to plunder, we get our oil from Turkey and also our Water.
Mark, a question that (I hope) may answer yours..
Does Isreal have large stocks of oil for the US to plunder?
It doesn't ... and while I think oil is a simplistic explanation of America's intentions towards Iraq, it's worth noting that Israel does have rather a lot of nukes.
well I can remember the last long thread about this and we went round in circles and basically I ain't got the time of the day to re iterate my standpoint all over again except the wall is pretty bad really but we REALLY need something to stop the terrorists from the palestinians areas getting into Israel. And I do accept the majority of peaceful palestinians have nothing to do with it BUT THEY REALLY must get some grip on the situation of terrorists living there and drive them out and for this lack of action I blame Arafat. He is the problem.
yea, after the last thread about the conflict id vowed to not to post about it again, but seeing israels casual disregard for human rights and international law, backed fully by the US has me apoplectic with frustrated rage :(
you wanna keep the palestinians outta israel? well, like that quote says - build the wall as high as you like along the green wall (the border of the west bank and israel)....oh, hang on....thatll cut off all those ILLEGAL - under INTERNATIONAL LAW - jewish settlements, build on palestinian land and we cant be having that now can we .....
anyway......thats a bit of that rage vented, i can get on with some work now :)
It doesn't ... and while I think oil is a simplistic explanation of America's intentions towards Iraq, it's worth noting that Israel does have rather a lot of nukes.
I realise my explanation is a simplistic one, but I do think that one of the main reason the US went in to Iraq so readily is financial.
One thing you didn't mention is that AFAIR historically, Isreal has always been perfectly happy to kill it's own countrymen to kill an enemy. They may use nukes to do this.
There is very little or no oil for anyone to plunder, we get our oil from Turkey and also our Water.
I thought that there was plenty of Oil around Iraq, they just didn't have an efficient drilling operation. Having said that, Saddam did burn a lot of Oil fields.
Anyway, I was talking about the U.S. not Us..
oh yes and we conviently forgets what happens when we relax the borders and all hell let loose in our country :( :2up:
Agreed if they really wont peace then they should stop suicide bombing’s. Why should people keep feeling sorry for them when this keeps on happening. Just think if their campaign worked it would make the Muslim fanatic’s around the world do it all the more
Agreed if they really wont peace then they should stop suicide bombing’s. Why should people keep feeling sorry for them when this keeps on happening. Just think if their campaign worked it would make the Muslim fanatic’s around the world do it all the more
its human nature to fight back when you are opressed. As the palestinians dont have the luxury the israelies have of being given billions of dollars in military aid a year, they have to fight back in anyway they can - suicide bombings.
Stop the oppression, and the bombings will stop.
I agree, its a circle of violence, with both sides guilty of inhuman acts. The difference is on the palestinian side, its just a few people commiting the crimes againsed humanity, on the israeli side, its the govt thats contravening human rights and international law - and thats a big difference.
the only way to resolve this is for israel to comply with international law and remove the illegal settlements from palestinian land. Its painfully obvious that this is something they will NEVER do - highlighted by the fact they are annexing even more land illegally....and shrugging off the outcry of 144 countries condemning them for it.
those of you that support the wall and israels actions - please please explain how by doing this they think it will bring stability to the region. would YOU stand by if you saw that happening to YOUR country?
the only way to resolve this is for israel to comply with international law and remove the illegal settlements from palestinian land. Its painfully obvious that this is something they will NEVER do - highlighted by the fact they are annexing even more land illegally....and shrugging off the outcry of 144 countries condemning them for it.
I don't think so. There's been lots of people/country's out their trying to get things rolling but the palestinian never give it a chance. Every bloody time they send out their bombers everytime. Sad but true
I don't think so. There's been lots of people/country's out their trying to get things rolling but the palestinian never give it a chance. Every bloody time they send out their bombers everytime. Sad but true
i think youll find the militant groups unilatirally agreed to a ceasefire - which they stuck to
that in itself was a MASSIVE step forward - and how did the israeli govt respond to that? "we dont care about that, we are gonna keep on trying to kill you"
They were as good as their word, carried out 2 assassinations, and so the bombings resumed - now tell me......who there didnt give peace a chance??
George Bush turning up to try and get both side's talking and encourage peace. What happened while he was their more bombings
George Bush turning up to try and get both side's talking and encourage peace. What happened while he was their more bombings
lol....hmmm, that imparshal mediator...., not then, the guy who has been giving israel the weapons and means to persecute the palestinains....
*edit*
the impartial mediator needed to sort this is the UN. the palestinians have gone omn record saying they would love to have a UN presence in the west bank/israel.
Odd that the israelis are so againsed this, if all they are really doing is defending themselves and nothing more.....
Its also a pity that the only country that can force israel to listen to the UN is the beloved USofA, who share israels contempt of the UN when it suits......
homealone
22-10-2003, 21:09
lol....hmmm, that imparshal mediator...., not then, the guy who has been giving israel the weapons and means to persecute the palestinains....
*edit*
the impartial mediator needed to sort this is the UN. the palestinians have gone omn record saying they would love to have a UN presence in the west bank/israel.
Odd that the israelis are so againsed this, if all they are really doing is defending themselves and nothing more.....
Its also a pity that the only country that can force israel to listen to the UN is the beloved USofA, who share israels contempt of the UN when it suits......
I agree about the UN, I think the current situation has gone on far too long, a peacekeeping force offering a true ceasefire, while proper negotiations for a workable compromise go ahead - well I wish, anyway.
As to the US bringing Israel to listen to the UN - didn't they recently use their veto in a vote for an UN resolution against Israel?
As to the US bringing Israel to listen to the UN - didn't they recently use their veto in a vote for an UN resolution against Israel?
yep.....no surprise there tho :rolleyes:
TigaSefi
22-10-2003, 21:53
Oh yes the UN...... They about Anti-Israel as you can legally get. There tons of Arab nations on the security council pressurising other nations to vote for their resolutions. No bloody resolutions are ever passed saying the Palestinians should refrain from suicide bombings.
Don't tell me Israel the only to get tons of aid. Palestinian council gets tons of aid from Europe but it never goes to the people, Arafat and his cronies hoard it all and use it to secretly pay people to suicide bomb and their family get a "bonus" and to gain weapons from other countries. Never u see it spent on the people that deserves the money to build something in their country and show the world that they want peace too cos they aren't given the chance to. If they was to realise that their own government would help them build a living of a decent standard then relations to Israel would improve dramatically and even Sharon won't be able to be a President as we'd be more liable to vote in someone more like Rabin/Barak who literally bent over backward a few years ago to offer 95% of what the palestinians wanted.
homealone
22-10-2003, 22:23
Oh yes the UN...... They about Anti-Israel as you can legally get. There tons of Arab nations on the security council pressurising other nations to vote for their resolutions. No bloody resolutions are ever passed saying the Palestinians should refrain from suicide bombings.
Don't tell me Israel the only to get tons of aid. Palestinian council gets tons of aid from Europe but it never goes to the people, Arafat and his cronies hoard it all and use it to secretly pay people to suicide bomb and their family get a "bonus" and to gain weapons from other countries. Never u see it spent on the people that deserves the money to build something in their country and show the world that they want peace too cos they aren't given the chance to. If they was to realise that their own government would help them build a living of a decent standard then relations to Israel would improve dramatically and even Sharon won't be able to be a President as we'd be more liable to vote in someone more like Rabin/Barak who literally bent over backward a few years ago to offer 95% of what the palestinians wanted.
I was quite surprised to read this earlier
http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/stillbirth.html
- not saying I agree with it, but it illustrates there are two sides to every story?
I also have to say that was over 50 years ago & hopefully the UN has moved on - even if it hasn't, I still think an International peacekeeping occupation of the area, while negotiations occur, is the way to go for the current situation. There should be a ban on the supply of weapons to either side & the threat of withdrawal of aid/funding if ceasefire conditions are broken?
I was quite surprised to read this earlier
http://christianactionforisrael.org/un/stillbirth.html
There's a nice well balanced article :shocked:
It's interesting as the story my israeli friends tell is that the arabs and israeli's got on at first.
One of the possible reasons why the UN has comdemned Israel and not the PLO is that Israel is a nation and a member of the UN.
I don't recal the UN condemning the IRA
I would first like to stress that I am not anti-Semetic, I`m am however these days *very* anti-Israel.
No one can deny that the treatment of the Jews during WW2 was a major atrocity, and the setting up of Jewish state was part of the attempt to make amends for this. However, ever since the Israelis have acted like bullied children that have grown big enough to bully others in turn. They have seized neighbouring lands in an expansionist program that rivals Hitler's, yet completely fail to see why this would antagonise their neighbours. In Afghanistan those fighting against the Russian occupation were considered to be freedom fighters battling for liberation, this is no different to the Palestinians, but Israel and her supporters decide to call them terrorist.
Is it any wonder the Palestinians are fighting back against this oppression? I do not agree with their methods, but they have a legitimate right to resist the encroachment of Israeli settlements on their territories. But the Israeli government are no better, it is simply not an acceptable option to use helicopter gunships firing missiles into residential neighbourhoods as a form of policing.
It is also completely hypocritical for the Israeli government to complain that the Palestinians are not policing their own people when the Israelis have systematically dismantled the Palestinian security apparatus.
Both sides need to come to the table to discuss peace, but for this to happen Israel needs to make major concessions and hand back the land it has stolen in its wars of expansion, but this is never going to happen all the time the war criminal Sharon is in charge. Probably the saddest thing of this whole affair is that they are totally blind to the fact that if the continue to antagonise their neighbours with this arrogant attitude then the days of Israel must surely be numbered.
homealone
22-10-2003, 23:08
There's a nice well balanced article :shocked:
It's interesting as the story my israeli friends tell is that the arabs and israeli's got on at first.
One of the possible reasons why the UN has comdemned Israel and not the PLO is that Israel is a nation and a member of the UN.
I don't recal the UN condemning the IRA
yes, there was a touch of "devils advocate" in my post - I don't know as much as I should about the situation & it was an article that showed up in a search on "United Nations Israel" on google. (typed without the apostrophes).
That is a good point about Israel being a member of the UN.:)
You know I'm actually finding it quite hard to find balanced histories of israel/palestine/jordan
homealone
23-10-2003, 00:34
You know I'm actually finding it quite hard to find balanced histories of israel/palestine/jordan
no doubt, "history is written by the winners" has struck again - and is still striking?
no doubt, "history is written by the winners" has struck again - and is still striking?
Most are one sided, either for the jews or palestinians.
Just been reading through the history timeline on http://www.palestinehistory.com and it does actually seem to be balanced, citing atrocities on both sides etc
homealone
23-10-2003, 01:12
Most are one sided, either for the jews or palestinians.
Just been reading through the history timeline on http://www.palestinehistory.com and it does actually seem to be balanced, citing atrocities on both sides etc
thanks Xaccers - one for tomorrow for me - off to bed now - night:)
No-one or no country is above international law but unfortunately it appears that way when agencies designed to maintain the peace are ineffective.
The Israel-Palestinian dispute is deep-seated and has been going on for over 2000 years in one form or another. The degree of distrust between the groups has reached paranoid proportions.
It is a case that each side wants to have the last word and thus each act of violence produces an act of retaliation, which provokes another act of retaliation and so the cycle continues.
Both sides are reacting emotionally in a situation where neither side has tolerance of or respect for the needs of the other.
Unfortunately too neither side has complete control of its supporters and when individuals take it upon themselves to commit an act of violence the backlash is against the entire community to which the offender belongs.
Under normal circumstances I would suggest putting in a UN peace-keeping force into the area to act as an impartial buffer between Israelis and Palestinians but the status of the UN has been compromised and it's difficult to think of a country with sufficient might, resolve and resources, which would be acceptable to both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
The only real solution is for both sides to stop fighting and to ensure that all their supporters stop fighting. Only when that happens will the two sides be able to sit down in an undistracted way and resolve their differences through discussion and negotiation. It may well be that there will not be a complete solution at this time but both sides will just have to abide by what they can agree on.
The Palestinians want their own state. The UN should do for the Palestinians what it did for the Jewish people when it created Israel and in agreement with others should create a Palestinian homeland.
Israel, for its own peace of mind and security, should be allowed to erect a security fence at its borders, with designated crossing points between Israel and the Palestinian homeland.
There should be controlled access to Jerusalem for Palestinians via a designated route for religious purposes and the Palestinians need to be very clear that in Israel they are visitors who need to be on their very best behaviour. The route could be overseen by CCTV and non-Military observers acceptable to both sides.
All Jewish people and all Palestinians should return to their respective homelands.
There should be regular meetings between leaders of both sides to monitor the situation and all differences should be resolved in a peaceful way. In some cases no action will be possible so agreeing to differ may be the best solution at that time or until relations change for the better.
No solution will be perfect, but we live in an imperfect world and like the rest of us, Israelis and Palestinians will just have to to accept that and go their different ways in peace.
Maybe then, over time, Israelis and Palestinians will come to respect each other and many innocent men, women and children will be saved from an untimely death or a life-time of pain as victims of violence.
I think the original plan was to split palestine into israel for the jews and jordan for the muslims.
I think the original plan was to split palestine into israel for the jews and jordan for the muslims.
Yep, the original UN mandate allowed for both Palestinian and Jewish homelands. Interestingly, the Israelis accepted the proposal and the Jews rejected it. The Jews went ahead and implemented their own homeland anyway, and life in the middle east has never been the same since.
Without in any way wishing to suggest that the current mess is therefore the Palestinians' fault, I can't help thinking that if they had accepted the original plan, they would have been a lot better off.
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