View Full Version : Unimaginative housing
Have you ever wanted to buck the trend of housing?
I found myself today wondering about why we do certain things in a certain way. Is it consumer expectation or lack of lateral thinking?
Why do we rarely build more than 2 storeys high when there is a huge demand for loft conversions?
Why do we never build houses with cellars that are properly designed as another storey when land is such a premium? The cost according to my structual engineer friend is a speck in the price of the building costs.
Why do builders always build too many houses on a plot of land? Ok they want to maximise their profits but they don't tend to do this abroad. They could do so abroad even though land is much cheaper there; but they don't. I would love to buy a plot of land and build 3 quality, large houses where as a builder would build 5 smaller compact ones. The ones where you can shake the hand of your neighbour through the windows when you are shaving in the morning....
Why are there only 2 rooms downstairs? The living room and the dining room...in the USA they have a family room too. Sure, some have studies but surely this would make sense..?
Why are there not many houses built of wood? They look great and you can buy kits relatively cheaply from the states.
Everybody wants to play safe all the time or the other way and make them bizarre...
Ikea have started selling kit houses which innovative but a little, well.....odd but at least they are trying...
http://www.boklok.com/
In this country I believe we are hamstrung by regulations, petty jealousy and greed. Let me explain:
When you build a house you have to get planning permission. The amount of regulations that are in place is unbelievable. A lot are understandable/justifiable, but some are a little bizarre. To quote an example, one of my brothers owns a large house in a green belt area. It is a long way from any other house, and has a substantial plot of land with it. He applied to extend the house marginally and it took 18 months to get any approval at all. He was limited to the increase in floor area (15% IIRC), the height of the building, elevation etc. Then he faced staunch opposition from a local councillor who lived several miles away, but was known for being jealous of people who seemed to be better off than him! (Ironically, one of the deciding factors in the application was the precedent set by the very same concillor). Also, there are endless specifications that have to be approved: brick type/colour, tiles etc. Also worthy of mention is the fact that when you apply for planning permission, quite often people raise objections that are irrelevant or unfounded, but still these can hinder the process.
Where builders are concerned, it is simply greed. They are cashing in on the fact that the Government's policy is to build, build, build, and hence they will always do what makes them more money. 5 houses will always sell for more than 3, even when the total area is the same. It's odd though - when you buy a property in the UK it is described as 2-bedroom, 3-bedroom etc; the emphasis is always on bedrooms. Go to other countries and they quote the area e.g. 120 square metres. That could be down to trying to get more people into houses, or it may be the overt snobbery that people display in this country when it comes to house sizes.
Finally, family rooms are a great thing, but maybe the concept of "family" in the UK is a distant memory?Or maybe people don't want to have a family room, they just want another bedroom to boast about.
The bottom line is, if you want a good sized, interesting, attractive house, in it's own space... don't look in the UK.
Cramming in houses is a Government planning guideline see ODPM Planning (http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_planning/documents/sectionhomepage/odpm_planning_page.hcsp)
As someone who has moved from a very large detached 3 storey Edwardian property (now demolished to be replaced by 2, 5 bed semis) to a 1950's 3 bed semi with 3 and a half downstairs rooms (thanks to a conservatory) I sympathise with your view (you would have to pay me to live in a new build house). First house I lived in was 3 storey and had a cellar (17th century terrace).
There is a huge increase in 3 storey "Town" houses and a lack of thought towards alternative building materials and methods. There is a local company which makes ready made timber framing (ideal for self build, more sustainable and quicker and cheaper to build with).
Even sitting on the local planning committee I find it very disheartning that local planners and committees are so stuck in the "brick built" style. Even worse, locally we have to contend with an abundance of "vernacular" as well. So every new house seems to be built of "Bradstone Cotswold". Sooo boring :zzz:
Well off my :soapbox: now.
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By the way me283 if a planning application (once plans are submitted to the planning department) takes longer than 8 weeks for a decision you can apply to the planning inspectorate for a decision on the grounds of "non determination".
I'm amazed that noone builds cellars though...with the land at such a premium....
handyman
02-10-2005, 00:22
I live in the gf's fam house. It was designed by them and is upside down, You enter on the 2nd floor and go down to the bed rooms. There are 2 lounges upstairs and 3 bedrooms and a master suite down stairs. afaik it was built for £80,000 10 yrs ago and is now £750,00 0. We hope to be able to build our own...
I'm amazed that noone builds cellars though...with the land at such a premium....
That was a point raised in my brother's application. The concillor who objected to everything claimed that there might be a cellar; this would obviously be included in the overall floor space. Naturally, people want their floorspace to be above ground, if it's of a limited amount.
A friend of mine lived in a house were you went in on the second floor Lounge, Kitchen, Dining Room then down to Study, Bedroom, Laundry room. The Top floor had 2 Bedrooms and Bathroom! The house was massive. Can't understand why there aren't more houses like this.
A friend of mine lived in a house were you went in on the second floor Lounge, Kitchen, Dining Room then down to Study, Bedroom, Laundry room. The Top floor had 2 Bedrooms and Bathroom! The house was massive. Can't understand why there aren't more houses like this.
Because a developer would think: hmmm, I can build a nice 3-storeyhouse... or I can build several flats...
Flats would be worth more to sell, greed kicks in.
True! But there could be so much more better quality houses than there are! Quite a lot of modern housing is way overpriced and so small!!
True! But there could be so much more better quality houses than there are! Quite a lot of modern housing is way overpriced and so small!!
Totally agree. But the people who build them aren't the people who live in them...
greencreeper
02-10-2005, 01:09
Why are there only 2 rooms downstairs? The living room and the dining room...in the USA they have a family room too. Sure, some have studies but surely this would make sense..?
Once upon a time houses had a front room and a back room (where you put the coffin). Society changes and our houses follow.
I'm amazed that noone builds cellars though...with the land at such a premium....
Because a lot of building sites are disused graveyards or industrial sites. You wouldn't want to dig that deep - never know who or what you might dig up.
makikomi
02-10-2005, 01:24
I really don't understand why radiators are nearly always located right underneath windows, especially when the window is single glazed. If they were located on an internal wall, the heat from the side of the radiator would help warm up the house, instead of a comparatively cold exterior wall, and the rising heat wouldn't heat a cold window.
Also, double glazing and cavity wall insulation should come as standard. It's cheaper to fit them dutring construction than aftewards, and we should be looking for fuel efficiency and saving the environment, etc.
I really don't understand why radiators are nearly always located right underneath windows, especially when the window is single glazed. If they were located on an internal wall, the heat from the side of the radiator would help warm up the house, instead of a comparatively cold exterior wall, and the rising heat wouldn't heat a cold window.
Also, double glazing and cavity wall insulation should come as standard. It's cheaper to fit them dutring construction than aftewards, and we should be looking for fuel efficiency and saving the environment, etc.
New builds are done this way as they have to for "sustainability". Agree regarding radiators, which ideally should be at 90 degrees to the windows on internal walls, apparently directly opposite a window gives you lovely warm ceilings due to the cold air from the window pushing the warm air from the radiator to the ceiling in a nice circular manner.
I think the idea is that the radiator makes a warm air curtain to stop draughts.
I think the idea is that the radiator makes a warm air curtain to stop draughts.
That was the original idea, but as the warmest place is immediately behind the radiator it does seem somewhat daft to heat an outside wall.
There is also the thing called the "convection current". (Get's his annoying schoolboy look!). Heat can transfer in three ways: radiation, conduction, and convection. With convection, in a typical room the heat rises; it then gets pushed across the ceiling by the other rising heat, and as it does so it cools; the air then drops. If the radiator were opposite the window, the warm air would be met by a cool air current (I think).
The above may be slightly wrong, as it's a long time since I went to school!
SMHarman
02-10-2005, 13:08
Have you ever wanted to buck the trend of housing?
I found myself today wondering about why we do certain things in a certain way. Is it consumer expectation or lack of lateral thinking?Yes - both
Why do we rarely build more than 2 storeys high when there is a huge demand for loft conversions? part of this demand is driven by the cost to move, it is cheaper to extend your house than pay the stamp duty, sellers fees etc to move house, so extend, often extending up is the easiest option. The government does not encourage housing mobility in its taxation of property sales and purchases.
Why do we never build houses with cellars that are properly designed as another storey when land is such a premium? The cost according to my structual engineer friend is a speck in the price of the building costs.Good question. The provide so much usable space and storage.
Why do builders always build too many houses on a plot of land? Ok they want to maximise their profits but they don't tend to do this abroad. They could do so abroad even though land is much cheaper there; but they don't. I would love to buy a plot of land and build 3 quality, large houses where as a builder would build 5 smaller compact ones. The ones where you can shake the hand of your neighbour through the windows when you are shaving in the morning....Because the government says so. Also households are getting smaller so there is a greater requirement for small homes for one adult + children, or singletons.
Why are there only 2 rooms downstairs? The living room and the dining room...in the USA they have a family room too. Sure, some have studies but surely this would make sense..?I know, we extended our house to create a family room and rebalance the space downstairs and upstairs. This is often the case because we build integral garages which take a fairly large chunk of the ground floor space.
Why are there not many houses built of wood? They look great and you can buy kits relatively cheaply from the states.
Because most builders in the UK are trained to build in brick not timber frame?
Everybody wants to play safe all the time or the other way and make them bizarre...
Ikea have started selling kit houses which innovative but a little, well.....odd but at least they are trying...
http://www.boklok.com/
I really don't understand why radiators are nearly always located right underneath windows, especially when the window is single glazed. If they were located on an internal wall, the heat from the side of the radiator would help warm up the house, instead of a comparatively cold exterior wall, and the rising heat wouldn't heat a cold window.stick some foil behind the radiator.
Also, double glazing and cavity wall insulation should come as standard. It's cheaper to fit them dutring construction than aftewards, and we should be looking for fuel efficiency and saving the environment, etc.They do, your windows have to comply with certain thermal values now, this is to stop heat escaping and getting in. Frames also need to comply, hence the massive increace in UPVC as it does not transfer heat so well. Walls in newbuilds are thicker, have a bigger void cavity and this is filled with fibre batons during construction. Planning laws require all this and council building regulation ensure this occurs.
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There is also the thing called the "convection current". (Get's his annoying schoolboy look!). Heat can transfer in three ways: radiation, conduction, and convection. With convection, in a typical room the heat rises; it then gets pushed across the ceiling by the other rising heat, and as it does so it cools; the air then drops. If the radiator were opposite the window, the warm air would be met by a cool air current (I think).
The above may be slightly wrong, as it's a long time since I went to school!Our extension has underfloor heating, as heat rises this is the most effective way to heat a room.
makikomi
02-10-2005, 13:40
stick some foil behind the radiator.
This will reflect some of the heat, but through conduction, there would still be unecessary heat loss.
Radiators on an interior wall would be far better, surely?
Are you in the building trade, by any chance?
Radiators on an interior wall would be far better, surely?
When I bought this place earlier this year I had GCH installed and made sure that all the radiators (bar one) were on *my* internal walls and not below windows.
The only one that isn't backs onto next door's upstairs bedroom because the way I wanted to lay the room out meant it was the only place it could go.
I've also had cavity wall insulation and loft insulation put in under a Council run, government sponsored scheme (costing just £125 for the lot!) so I'm looking forward to being nice and warm this winter! :)
I always thought the reason for radiators being in front of the window was to give you more wall space for bookcases and furnture etc...and nothing particularly technical...
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Here you are....
http://www.diyfixit.co.uk/nflash/CentralHeating/CHPositionRads/PositionRads.htm
...
Ikea have started selling kit houses which innovative but a little, well.....odd but at least they are trying...
http://www.boklok.com/
Oh, there's a K in the middle of that name.. I must get a better monitor :dozey:
Radiator placement revisited here (http://www.theyellowhouse.org.uk/themes/heatwat.html#h6)
bmxbandit
02-10-2005, 22:38
i'm almost bored enough to do some finite element models of radiator placement, just to see what happens.
almost.
I always thought the reason for radiators being in front of the window was to give you more wall space for bookcases and furnture etc...and nothing particularly technical...
Yes, but as it says: "If you have double glazed windows, the air will not fall by the windows to anything like the same extent. Therefore you have more flexibilty in positioning the radiators. This can be a big help especially if you wish to have full length curtains which would cover the radiators if they were under the window."
I have double glazing and also full length (and fully lined) curtains which will ensure that very little heat is lost (and my table is partly in front of the window, so it would block the airflow from the radiator :) )
Now this is interesting stuff since I am putting central heating into my new property :tu: :)
SMHarman
02-10-2005, 23:18
Now this is interesting stuff since I am putting central heating into my new property :tu: :)
The more useful stuff is not necessarily rad placement, but pressurised vs gravity, get yourself a megaflow and condenser boiler and you will have the ability to put the most fantastic showers in your house.
Now this is interesting stuff since I am putting central heating into my new property :tu: :)
If you haven't already committed to a contract, check with your council to see if there's any schemes available that may help you save money.
I know the Big Green Boiler Scheme has finished which offered grants to get a condensing boiler, but there may well be others around.
Also, as mentioned above, check for grants for loft and cavity insulation.
Now this is interesting stuff since I am putting central heating into my new property :tu: :)
Is it a brand new property? If so, have you considered under floor heating?
The more useful stuff is not necessarily rad placement, but pressurised vs gravity, get yourself a megaflow and condenser boiler and you will have the ability to put the most fantastic showers in your house.It's commercial premises......
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Is it a brand new property? If so, have you considered under floor heating?I considered it but was put off the idea for some reason or other.....
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If you haven't already committed to a contract, check with your council to see if there's any schemes available that may help you save money.Will do, tnx! :tu: :)
SMHarman
03-10-2005, 13:50
It's commercial premises......Probably best with a combi boiler then (still pressurised, just no hot or cold water storage on premises). Everything is on demand.
going back to the original thread.....wouldn't you appreciate a cellar in your house? You could use it for storage or it could be fully tanked out for a games room, snug, bedroom etc etc. I would be the same size as the downstairs of your home. It only takes one large building company to pilot it and the others will follow. I have stayed in my cousin's basement for a week, in Canada. OK, the windows were small and high but it was fine. They also have the aircon and central vacuum there but it was OK at night.
The central vacuum was clever. All round the house it was "wired" in like an electric socket. You just carried round the house a long tube. You plugged the tube into these sockets and twisted it to lock it. The twist caused the motor to start and the suction began. The main difference is that it was almost silent to vacuum as the motor was in the basement......clever....
I would love to have a cellar to store stuff and to put my washing machine and drier in.
I have stayed in my cousin's basement for a week, in Canada.
A lot of people in Canada also rent their basements out.
going back to the original thread.....wouldn't you appreciate a cellar in your house? You could use it for storage or it could be fully tanked out for a games room, snug, bedroom etc etc. I would be the same size as the downstairs of your home. It only takes one large building company to pilot it and the others will follow. I have stayed in my cousin's basement for a week, in Canada. OK, the windows were small and high but it was fine. They also have the aircon and central vacuum there but it was OK at night.
The central vacuum was clever. All round the house it was "wired" in like an electric socket. You just carried round the house a long tube. You plugged the tube into these sockets and twisted it to lock it. The twist caused the motor to start and the suction began. The main difference is that it was almost silent to vacuum as the motor was in the basement......clever....
I remember my Mum talking about a central vac, excellent idea as you could make the suction power so much better and the dust went straight into the bin.
As for cellars, Americans seem to use them as the communal laundry room or "den".
A neighbour applied for a "single storey workshop" but built a 2 storey by putting in a half cellar and a mezzanine style floor to the top layer.
I think the Edwardians have much to answer for, as prior to that most houses were built with a "coal" cellar at the very least.
Have you ever wanted to buck the trend of housing?
I found myself today wondering about why we do certain things in a certain way. Is it consumer expectation or lack of lateral thinking?
Why do we rarely build more than 2 storeys high when there is a huge demand for loft conversions?
Why do we never build houses with cellars that are properly designed as another storey when land is such a premium? The cost according to my structual engineer friend is a speck in the price of the building costs.
Why do builders always build too many houses on a plot of land? Ok they want to maximise their profits but they don't tend to do this abroad. They could do so abroad even though land is much cheaper there; but they don't. I would love to buy a plot of land and build 3 quality, large houses where as a builder would build 5 smaller compact ones. The ones where you can shake the hand of your neighbour through the windows when you are shaving in the morning....
Why are there only 2 rooms downstairs? The living room and the dining room...in the USA they have a family room too. Sure, some have studies but surely this would make sense..?
Why are there not many houses built of wood? They look great and you can buy kits relatively cheaply from the states.
Everybody wants to play safe all the time or the other way and make them bizarre...
Ikea have started selling kit houses which innovative but a little, well.....odd but at least they are trying...
http://www.boklok.com/
Further info. The reason houses do not get built these days with cellars is cost! It can be up to 50% of the building cost putting in a cellar. Only a week or so ago I saw the "new style foundations" which are not even dug into the ground. Just a series of long concrete and steel type girders bolted together at the corners. :shocked:
Further info. The reason houses do not get built these days with cellars is cost! It can be up to 50% of the building cost putting in a cellar. Only a week or so ago I saw the "new style foundations" which are not even dug into the ground. Just a series of long concrete and steel type girders bolted together at the corners. :shocked:
That contradicts what my structural engineer friend says but.....even so it's still a lot cheaper than the land would cost to extend sideways. Also businesses are not particularly consumer driven, they tend to make to their own standards and the expectation is that the consumer will conform to them. That's why new homes all look very similar. The consumer doesn't have a big enough voice...
That contradicts what my structural engineer friend says but.....even so it's still a lot cheaper than the land would cost to extend sideways. Also businesses are not particularly consumer driven, they tend to make to their own standards and the expectation is that the consumer will conform to them. That's why new homes all look very similar. The consumer doesn't have a big enough voice...
It was the local Planning Dept Architect who advised me. However I totally agree regarding variety. I think sometime during the 80's it was thought that areas needed an architectural identity. Hence the proliferation of "vernacular" styling (which locally they fail to properly acheive as they don't even point the brickwork to match the local style). This is then compounded by the small margins on building costs for smaller companies. So it all gets built of the most readily available bulk purchased material for the cheapest cost.
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