View Full Version : Humanists, Agnostics and/or Athieists
As Bifta started the religious thread it got me thinking as to why those of us who do not believe in a "deity" have come to that conclusion.
Please can we have no attempts at conversion by those who do believe and continue in the same respectful manner which the Religious thread is doing.
Personally I was never christened nor were either of my parents religious. I did attend Sunday school which I vaugely remember involved doing a lot of colouring in and being the understudy to Mary in the nativity (and having to step in on the day). This was a completely cynical method of my mothers to get me into the C of E school which at the time was the best in the town, and I continued with this education until age 11 only attending church with the school or a wedding.
Looking back on my life I don't think there was ever a point at which I believed in God, nor have I personally had a need to believe, even after my father died when I was 13.
At my mothers funeral we had a Humanist ceremony which was lovely. He talked to both my brothers and I for hours and made the celebration of her life beautiful. Eveyone who attended said it was the best funeral they had been to.
Dave Stones
13-09-2005, 19:16
I guess i fall into one of these categories. Never been christened nor have any of my family. I went to a church of england primary school, go figure. I was one of those people who never said the prayers cos i didn't believe them :)
I think i'm a man of science, until it is proven that something exists to me with empirical evidence or i witness it myself etc etc, i disbelieve :)
i have read a bible though, during the course of RE lessons and being completely bored to death in hotel rooms and the like. It just doesn't "grab" me...
[edit] looks like that makes me an agnostic...
bmxbandit
13-09-2005, 19:20
i pride myself on trying to think logically and rationally, and the main reason i have no particular religious belief is that nobody has come up wth compelling enough evidence (in my mind) that any one religion is correct, or that any one (or more) god(ess) exists.
i have quite strong antitheist views, but i dont like to upset people so i generally keep schtum and let everyone get on with what they like...
Oh can I join this thread as I am not allowed to join the "other" one :(
makikomi
13-09-2005, 21:15
Like BMX Bandit, I'm a logical person.
To me, I just think there is lack of proof for a god, but the big bang theory doesn't entirely convince me either. As far as I am concerned, everything has come from somewhere.
Some religious people say you have to accept that God always existed and have faith. But they then say that you can't just accept that the gases which caused the Big Bang always existed. :confused:
It's all far too big a question for me to ponder and I don't think anyone (or at least anyone alive) will ever have an answer that fully convinces me. So I've learnt to simply accept that we exist, and just to try and be happy even though I don't have the answer.
Well, I am not religious, but my mum and dad followed the example set by my Grandmother on my mother's side. My grandmother allowed my mum to research different religions and find one that suited her. She chose CofE. My mum and dad did the same for me. I looked into all the major religions, and found none that suited me.
homealone
13-09-2005, 21:34
Like BMX Bandit, I'm a logical person.
To me, I just think there is lack of proof for a god, but the big bang theory doesn't entirely convince me either. As far as I am concerned, everything has come from somewhere.
Some religious people say you have to accept that God always existed and have faith. But they then say that you can't just accept that the gases which caused the Big Bang always existed. :confused:
It's all far too big a question for me to ponder and I don't think anyone (or at least anyone alive) will ever have an answer that fully convinces me. So I've learnt to simply accept that we exist, and just to try and be happy even though I don't have the answer.
Ah, lack of proof, I read a book about 'intelligent design' recently, which put forward a theory that too many things are too complicated to have just 'evolved', and hence there must be a 'maker' or 'designer', responsible for it all.
It was quite pervasive and went on my list of everything to be taken into account when thinking about such stuff :)
bmxbandit
13-09-2005, 21:36
Some religious people say you have to accept that God always existed and have faith. But they then say that you can't just accept that the gases which caused the Big Bang always existed. :confused:
a big difficulty that's resurfaced as a result in the rise of the 'intelligent design' theory is that the scientific community as a whole is never going to accept as read anything that is by definition untestable. the big bang thing is still a theory, as you say...
in short, i put up with it, and hope it goes away (by which i mean away from me, what you do in your own home and/or wth consenting adults is none of my business).
Can't help but think this thread will turn in to the usual free-for-all faith bashing type....
bmxbandit
13-09-2005, 21:39
i'm trying to avoid it :)
The admin team will ensure it doesn't happen ;)
My parents sent me to various C of E schools and Sunday school but we weren't a very religious family. I wasn't really bothered either way about religion until I was about 16 and was receiving religious education/instruction from one of our our communities priests (Lutheran) prior to being confirmed. The upshot of the intensive religious education was that I was swayed into believing that Christianity (and all religion) is utter tosh that was developed as a means of social control. (sorry Russ and Towny :( )
I do envy people who 'have' religion because of the comfort and strength it brings them. I would love to believe.....but I agree with Marx saying 'religion is the opium of the masses'.
I am however a hypocrite--I have had both of my children baptised so that if God et.al. do actually exist, they don't go straight to hell if they die,through no fault of their own (one of the reasons I decided religion was not worth my time)
I only hope I don't chicken out on my death bed and 'repent' etc.....
So to recap............I don't believe because of a priests personal tuition..... :erm:
Dave Stones
13-09-2005, 21:49
if people do like they are told in the original post it won't happen ;) i just laid what i think out nice and clear, i'm not going to go preaching the virtues of new scientist magazine or something... :erm:
i'm one of those nice types who couldn't give a fart what anyone else believes as long as they let me believe what i want, with no preaching going either way :)
I've tried to think about higher powers but it's one of those things that i can't get my head around, the old "what created the higher power if it created us" never-ending loop bothers me... i hate infinity :(
patrickp
13-09-2005, 22:14
Ah, lack of proof, I read a book about 'intelligent design' recently, which put forward a theory that too many things are too complicated to have just 'evolved', and hence there must be a 'maker' or 'designer', responsible for it all.
It was quite pervasive and went on my list of everything to be taken into account when thinking about such stuff :)
If you're checking out 'Intelligent Design,' homealone, maybe you should check out the FSM (http://www.venganza.org/) site - also worth looking at wiki's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster) take on it...
;-D
Further irony. Neither of my children have been christened as I strongly believe any religion or not should be of their own choice not something imposed upon them. A year ago I was dragged in as a school governor to interview for a new head teacher. I was the one who asked the religious question (I drew the short straw) and the teacher we chose (from another state school rather than a CofE school) whilst really good for the teachers and pupils has increased the amount of religious content of assembly (much to my daughters annoyance) and now there is a prayer before packed lunches so my son insists on school dinners (with no prayers). :shrug:
homealone
13-09-2005, 23:11
Ah, lack of proof, I read a book about 'intelligent design' recently, which put forward a theory that too many things are too complicated to have just 'evolved', and hence there must be a 'maker' or 'designer', responsible for it all.
It was quite pervasive and went on my list of everything to be taken into account when thinking about such stuff :)
If you're checking out 'Intelligent Design,' homealone, maybe you should check out the FSM (http://www.venganza.org/) site - also worth looking at wiki's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_spaghetti_monster) take on it...
;-D
:LOL: - yes - and relate it to string theory - jesting, of course, how many dimensions do you want ;)
timewarrior2001
13-09-2005, 23:13
This is what I was always against at school.
The force feeding of christianity to the kids. If you are going to school in religion, especially in assembly you MUST cater for EVERY religion or NONE at all.
I figured by the age of about 7 that I didnt buy all this Jesus christ son of god business. I dont doubt there was a character like Jesus, as for his miracles, well I put that down to creative writting.
I feel very uncomfortable around religious places, I can barely stand being in a church, but can happily while away many hours walking round a cemetry.
I feel that religion did not leave my life empty, I have strong morals, but i alsi have an I dont care attitude. I look out for my friends and would assist anyone in need. Thats just doing the right thing, it has nothing to do with the fact I was christened or dragged kicking and screaming to church for harvest festival etc.
atlantis
14-09-2005, 00:16
Must start by admitting that Iâ₠™m not a religious person (but I respect those that are, destroy what a person believes in, you help destroy that person).
My thoughts are these, my family were/are supposed to be C of E, but never followed it in any way, as kids, we were taken to church with the school, but thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s as far as it went.
As you grow older, see things, people blaming god for their special someone taken away too young, it gets you thinking, can this be true? Is there a †œSupreme BeingÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â€šà ¬Ã‚Â�
I decided, on a personal level, no, we are creatures born with free will; our science makes the †œtrue⠃¢â€šÂ¬Ã‚ miracles, weâ₠¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢ve even mapped the code of life, the human gnome.
Where do we go from here?
Good question.
Hopefully, we will have better leaders, able to unite more than divide us.
That medical science will help us win more battles against death (you can never win the war).
I always hope for a better world, for my kids, and everyone elses.
Can't help but think this thread will turn in to the usual free-for-all faith bashing type....
Seems to be its raison d'etre, ie to bash religion. I'm intending to steer well clear.
Another religion thread? Unbelievable.
I am so going to stear clear from this sin "oops sorry,Humanists, Agnostics and/or Athieists" thread :)
Can't help but think this thread will turn in to the usual free-for-all faith bashing type....
Oi! You're not allowed in this thread...!
:redcard: :notme:
:jk:
Anyway, isn't the other thread just about bashing non-faith types...?! :D
the human gnome. I always thought Russel Grant was suspicious :erm: :disturbd: :monkey:
atlantis
14-09-2005, 08:23
I always thought Russel Grant was suspicious :erm: :disturbd: :monkey:
:) bad typing finger yesterday, should have been Genome, not gnome.
I always thought Russel Grant was suspicious :erm: :disturbd: :monkey:
He is!
__________________
I am so going to stear clear from this sin "oops sorry,Humanists, Agnostics and/or Athieists" thread :)
Good.
I am pleased to note no one on here with a strong non belief has posted on the religion thread.
Thank you everyone
dilli-theclaw
14-09-2005, 09:18
I used to be religious - Now, well I don't know anymore. I no longer have a clearly defined belief in or in the absence of god.
atlantis
14-09-2005, 09:30
I heard this line on the film "The Crow", think it sums the basics up:
"mother is the name for god on the lips of all the children"
I have no religious belief. To have such belief you need to have faith and I have not yet come across anything to cultivate that faith in me. The elasticity with which religion is interpreted to explain events and actions is also a problem for me. And groups such as Repent America who regarded Katrina as God's vengeance on the 'sinful'.
My partner is Catholic and my kids are christened (I attended but didn't take part in the ceremony) although her faith is certainly not as strong as it was. 12 years ago we lost a baby and her faith did, to a degree, help her I think, and she asked for the priest to bless the baby. The funeral was not religious though.
I do find religion fascinating now (though I didn't at school, possibly because teaching was so Christian-centric) and respect the beliefs held by others as long as they do not impinge on my or others' rights. The growing influence of religion on politics is something that does concern me though, particularly in times of such instability.
<snip>The growing influence of religion on politics is something that does concern me though, particularly in times of such instability.
I am totally atheist. I cannot bring myself to believe in a super being which not only created us, the universe etc., but (if I understand correctly) still controls or at least oversees all human events. To me the concept is ridiculous.
As andyl says the religion / politics link is disturbing. It seems as if religious / political leaders use God or Allah as an excuse to perpetrate unspeakable things, much as a child might excuse some misdeed by saying "It was his idea" or "He made me do it". :rolleyes:
Good.
I am pleased to note no one on here with a strong non belief has posted on the religion thread.
Thank you everyone
I noticed that too :)
I don't think I've ever believed in a god, but then I've never needed to.
I know how good/evil people can be to know that we don't need an external deity to cause it, or to absolve us of blame.
Believing that we are on our own has its advantages and especially with recent events with Katrina I'm reminded of the following story I was told as a child:
A priest is caught in a flood and climbs onto his roof as the water continues to rise.
A boy in a canoe comes past and offers to rescue him, the priest replies "god will save me" and the boy leaves.
A speedboat comes along and they offer to rescue the priest, again he replies that god will save him, so they leave.
As the water laps around his neck a helicoptor arrives and drops a ladder, again he declines saying god will save him.
Then he drowns.
I'd have been out on the canoe!
There is also a very nasty side to the "god of abraham" type religions which I could never accept.
I noticed that too :)
I don't think I've ever believed in a god, but then I've never needed to.
I know how good/evil people can be to know that we don't need an external deity to cause it, or to absolve us of blame.
Believing that we are on our own has its advantages and especially with recent events with Katrina I'm reminded of the following story I was told as a child:
A priest is caught in a flood and climbs onto his roof as the water continues to rise.
A boy in a canoe comes past and offers to rescue him, the priest replies "god will save me" and the boy leaves.
A speedboat comes along and they offer to rescue the priest, again he replies that god will save him, so they leave.
As the water laps around his neck a helicoptor arrives and drops a ladder, again he declines saying god will save him.
Then he drowns.
I'd have been out on the canoe!
There is also a very nasty side to the "god of abraham" type religions which I could never accept.
....then he gets to Heaven and says to God. I've been a loyal servant of yours all my life....Why didn't you save me?
God then says "What do you mean?, I sent you a canoe, a speedboat and even a Bl**y helicopter.....!"
handyman
14-09-2005, 12:45
I guess I'm like a lot of the non 'believers' here.
I don't think that there is a god, a afterlife or that the bible is the be all and end all of life. I was brought up in a c of e home and went to Sunday school , church and was even confirmed. This was all because my mother sent me there I never subscribed to the ideologies in the same way that 'Santa' left me when I was 4-5 religion did also because as soon as I started forming my own ideas and could comprehend the reality of things the idea of god soon became a foolish notion.
I do however think there is a lot of good lessons to be learned from the bible if only they could be taught to our kids without the 'religious' pomp that just turns them off the subject.
I firmly believe that religion came about because first man got rained on after coveting his neighbours wife and thought he was being punished. So he tells people this and they say yes it must have been a punishment by something and then that something turns into a god. And many tales are told, many dreams get interpreted, many plagues and natural disaster become ' gods work' Many theories get passed about regarding how the world came to be and then we end up with a bloated array of religions just like we had a compact ms-dos operating system and now we have windows xp which is far from the original idea.
Religion started because of a lack of education and its education that will be its ultimate downfall. I also firmly believe that we will see the end of religion as a main stream idea before the end of this century if not by the middle of it. Do a straw poll in your office and see what the answer to ' do you believe' is. I would say its less than 1 in 20 in most places in the age group 18-30.
will I be sad to see it go? Yes probably because there will no doubt be other things that do far more damage that people replace it with.
This is my own view, not intended to harass or put down those that believe.
orangebird
14-09-2005, 13:04
Can't help but think this thread will turn in to the usual free-for-all faith bashing type....
I really don't see the need for that post Russ. Bifta asked anyone who didn't believe not to post in his thread, so they haven't. There's been no 'bashing' in this thread for three pages, has there? :rolleyes:
I was christened Catholic. But my mother sent me to a CofE school as the education advisor suggested that the local catholic school might put too much emphasis on catholic studies than reading and writing....Although my mum has faith, she never wanted it forced upon me and my brother, rather she wanted us to make up our own minds when we were old enough to form our own opinions.
I don't believe, because there's no proof. I've lost too many loved ones and we've all witnessed to may tragedies for me to think for a second that there's some force up there looking out for us all.
I really don't see the need for that post Russ. Bifta asked anyone who didn't believe not to post in his thread, so they haven't. There's been no 'bashing' in this thread for three pages, has there? :rolleyes:
Well let's just make sure it stays that way then eh? ;)
Well let's just make sure it stays that way then eh? ;)
Looks like it will from the tone of posts thus far. :tu:
Of course there's a very real temptation to go on the Religion thread and suggest that it's likely to turn into the usual agnostic/atheist/humanist bashing ;) :D
But we both know that doesn't happen...:D
But we both know that doesn't happen...:D
True enough on CF I guess. I have opinions about the wider world but that would a) take us off topic and b) lead us into dangerous territory. ;)
cookie_365
14-09-2005, 19:53
<rant>
Well, I'm an atheist because no one religous has ever persuaded me that they've got anything to say.
Religionists seem to have 3 different types of view of how the world works:
1. Stuff that's patently obvious that requires no insight whatsoever that any idiot could work out for themselves.
2. Stuff that's impossible to prove or disprove either way, so they can pretend that they've got some kind of special insight without having to get off their rear ends to justify.
3. Actual real testable predictions about how the world works. Very rare, and always turn out to be wrong.
Whereas atheists tend to put their money where their mouths are, and make testable predictions about the world that stand up or fall down on their own merits.
Also, show me a bigot, and chances are they won't be an atheist. My experience is that the more bigoted someone is, the more religous they are (NOT: the more religous someone is, the more bigoted they are, before anyone grabs the wrong end of the stick)
Finally, what if I'm wrong? What if there is a god? What if I get to the pearly gates and I'm standing there thinking 'ohhhhh, bugger! Did I get that wrong or what?' Well, I suspect one of two things will happen.
Either god will say 'well, you're actually a nice, caring person, who tried to contribute towards the good of humanity, in which case you're welcome to my club even if you didn't actually believe in me, or, it'll say 'I'm not interested in your character, you didn't believe in me, so that's that: you're up the creek.' In which case this god is a piece of crud that isn't worth my or anyone else's belief, and chances are will have some malicious excuse for dumping on people who believe in it anyway.
</rant>
bmxbandit
14-09-2005, 20:05
<rant>
SNIP!
</rant>
y'know, i totally agree with all that.
I'm not sure I do. Bigots are everywhere, religious or not. Zealots may be another matter I guess. It is a fact (an annoying one for rationalists) that you can't argue with faith in the same way you can't argue with prejudice. The latter annoys/frustrates me more.
I too seek evidence and find it lacking. I too get dismayed at the constant reinterpretation of religion to explain events. But, at the end of the day, faith provides reason, comfort, cultural anchoring etc to people so I can respect their belief (as long as it doesn't impact.... (see previous posts) ;) )
Finally religion can provide some excellent ceremonies which serve wider purposes (eg commitment, though that's not a religious exclusive). I love weddings!!
I totally agree with cookie as well. I'd also like to add that there is this odd situation where you have to choose from several religions. Pick the wrong religion and follow that to the letter, and you're stuffed as well :rolleyes:
For the record, I grew up in an atheist family, but did go to a religious secondary school. I hated every minute of the religious content at school. It certainly did not foster any interest in religion in me.
Am another believer in cookie's philosophy. My brother went to a Catholic school, and much like danielf, it seemed to push him away from what little religion he had beforehand.
In *my experience* people who are highly religious seem to be overly righteous (sp?!), and try to make me justify my position as an athiest, which is a lot easier for me than them it would seem. Please note that this is only my experience, and I mean no disrespect to anybody following a religion.:tu:
Bigots are everywhere, religious or not
:clap:
I actually don't consider myself religious at all. To me, the word religion conjours up the idea of a set of rules you must adhere to whether you like them or not, something like a workingmens' club.
Christianity isn't like that, it's way of life. It's not meant to be a restrictive straight-jacket, it's a way of viewing the world which you choose yourself.
I was a believer in the Christian faith once(though I was never christened).I even obtained a pass in RE O-level and the RE prize in my final year at Secondary school.However as time has gone by I have come to think that Religion is not a way to improve the world but a means to control others.
Too much time has been spent by so many in striving to be good enough not to enter Hell and to gain acess to Heaven.This has meant that not enough has been actually spent in improving the world on which we reside.We need to make earth a heaven not the hell it so obviously is.I cannot see that organised religions have achieved this particular feat and so I eschew them in favour of being the best person I can be whilst hopefully providing the help that others need to be better people.
I will however defend to the death anyone's right to worship as they see fit.Just as long as they award me the same respect. :)
I will however defend to the death anyone's right to worship as they see fit.Just as long as they award me the same respect. :)
I would normally do this with a rep, but in this case, it's definitely:
HEAR HEAR!! :)
greencreeper
16-09-2005, 00:36
Read "Bed Among the Lentils" to understand my thoughts on religion. It's all perfectly true. My mum used to clean the local church but when her father died she didn't clean the church for a few weeks. She came in for criticism because of it, but they (the gang who run the place) where happy anyway because my mum never did a proper job. If I recall, they found dust on the piano. The horror of it all. And the cheek of putting her father's death before the hoover. The best example, which makes me laugh to this day, was old Mrs Lilly, now dead and hopefully in hell, who used to take back home with her the produce she "donated" for harvest festival. Hopefully the minions of hell are lined up with stale batch loaves for her.
It's basically:
(1) Those in it for self-glorification - the good samaritans that feel good because they're helping those who can't help themselves. Oh the power;
(2) The nutters - God's an alien;
(3) The weirdos - take your money and assorted liberties with your body. Join the commune - bingo Thursdays, orgy first Sunday of the month...;
(4) Those scared of dying and who use religion to externalise reassurance - like saying, "I can do this", repeatedly as you lean back in your abseiling harness, 100ft up;
(5) Those who try to abide by the larger principles of religion (love thy neighbour, and all that) and who find comfort in their faith.
The majority of believers fall into (1); the minority fall into one or more of the other categories.
There may be a God, in many ways it makes sense, but I don't think any religion has got it right, yet.
Sorry to hear of your mum's experience but surely this is just "people" not "the church". Sure, representatives from the church but there are always bad cookies in every organistion.
There are also the following.
6) The Sunday club members. Those who use religion as a reason for social activity and company.
7) The hypocrites.
I would say the majority fall into 5) but often fail because they are human.
Anyway, this is not supposed to be a thread about Christianity but Humanists, Agnostics and/or Athieists
So as Humanists, Agnostics and/or Athieists, what do you want done for you when you die?
Personally, I'd like all my organs which can be used to be donated to anyone who needs them or medical science.
Put the remains in a cardboard box and bury it (cheap as possible).
Have everyone celebrate my life and party on into the night.
So as Humanists, Agnostics and/or Athieists, what do you want done for you when you die?
Personally, I'd like all my organs which can be used to be donated to anyone who needs them or medical science.
I'm donating my body to science fiction...! :disturbd:
(Yes, it's an old joke, so what...?! ;) )
orangebird
16-09-2005, 14:13
Organs donated (except for eyes). Then (non-religiously) cremate me and chuck me in the Med. :tu:
Any thing they can find that I haven't knackered they can take for other people and the rest of me I want cremated
Thank you for this thread, people. It's been an interesting read. :)
And thank you Chris for not slating any one for not believeing :tu:
cookie_365
16-09-2005, 18:46
So as Humanists, Agnostics and/or Athieists, what do you want done for you when you die?
Personally, I'd like all my organs which can be used to be donated to anyone who needs them or medical science.
Put the remains in a cardboard box and bury it (cheap as possible).
Have everyone celebrate my life and party on into the night.
Organs donated: as the old joke goes, I'll donate my body to anyone who wants it ;)
What's left: well, I won't give a monkeys for what I hope are obvious reasons :)
What'll actually happen is that it'll be toasted and the ashes'll go into our family grave, if there's any space left, or someone elses family grave if Liverpool City Council mess up the paperwork :)
Once I'm dead whatever those up and coming trainee Doctors need to do to me to learn is fine my me. Most of me is too knackered for recycling. :D
philip.j.fry
16-09-2005, 19:07
Personally, I'd like all my organs which can be used to be donated to anyone who needs them or medical science.
Put the remains in a cardboard box and bury it (cheap as possible).
Have everyone celebrate my life and party on into the night.
Right with you there, the preferential order for me is:
1). Organs etc to people who need them.
2). Anything after that to medical science.
3). Anything after that to be put in a biodegradable coffin and buried somewhere sensible (alternatively, I'm quite happy to be Soylent Green if the world has come to that)
Chimaera
16-09-2005, 19:14
Well just as long as I look beautiful in my casket for my grieving daughters to come and see me (hardly likely as they won't speak to me when I'm alive LOL) and after the removal of any body parts for the benefit of others - then anything they do to me after that is ok - preferably dealt with in the local crem and the ashes scattered in either the TVR factory or Eddie Stobart's yard.
Well at least it's different! :D
<snip>
:notopic: :welcome: back :)
Tezcatlipoca
16-09-2005, 21:00
My Mum's a Christian (CofE), & still believes. My Dad was raised a Christian (Catholic, his mum was Irish Catholic), but is now "lapsed" or whatever. I think he's more agnostic than atheist.
So when I was born I was Christened into the CofE, & raised CofE. Went to Church as a kid, went to Sunday Club, & Sunday School, etc.
But when I was around 12 or 13 my nan (paternal one) died, after a long & painful illness, & it soured my view of God. I ended up questioning things, thought more about it all, looked at my beliefs & what I thought & what I wanted, read about the Problem of Evil, & so on, & ended up deciding that - in my opinion - there either was no God, or if there was there was no reason to worship Him.
Which is where I am today. Perhaps partly atheist & partly agnostic, if that makes sense, I'm not sure.
And thank you Chris for not slating any one for not believeing :tu:
It looks like any slating is going on between various christians over in the religion thread (certainly not involving Towny though) :)
Just goes to show where there is a lack of belief there is unity of thought. Self reliance (by which I mean not passing blame, gaining absolution or looking for support) means you and no one but you is responsible for your decisions and actions.
God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players , to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who [i]smiles all the time. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players , to being involved in an obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who [i]smiles all the time. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
:tu:
I'd pretty well decided that I was an "Apathetic Agnostic" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apathetic_agnosticism
But maybe I'm actually an Ignostic instead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
Any "good" in any religion, is equally possible without the requirement to belive in the unprovable.
But maybe I'm actually an Ignostic instead
ROFL! I *like* that one :D
Any "good" in any religion, is equally possible without the requirement to belive in the unprovable.
Hear hear! :)
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But maybe I'm actually an Ignostic instead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
<snip>
Thanks so much for that. It'll be most useful when 'intelligent design' hits the forum :)
I don't think I'm an agnostic(or ignostic),athiest or any other sort of ist.I just reject religion as a whole.I'm not interested in whether there are gods or not.I'm just interested in the human race becoming a better 'species' as a whole without resorting to science or theology to do so.The human spirit should be enough for us to improve the lot of everyone and every creature on this earth if we were not getting sidetracked into trying to prove the existence of the undefinable. :)
I just reject religion as a whole.
As do I, generally. I don't see the need for conforming to rules if you don't feel it in your heart.
Thanks so much for that. It'll be most useful when 'intelligent design' hits the forum
Don't forget to dig up the late David Hume, who flattened ID in the mid-18th century - it's current proponents likely haven't heard of him, being merely one of the great figures of the Enlightenment, which they despise.
Boring navel gazing bit:
The question isn't 'why don't I believe' - I don't believe in an Almighty in the same way that I don't believe in a tooth fairy or Father Christmas. They, like God, evidently 'exist'* (because we have words for them and are talking about them) but we cannot say they have any existence independent of our minds or the products of our minds (like religious art, Christmas cards or Pratchett novels - funny how he keeps coming up, has anyone mentioned Small Gods yet?)
I (part Irish Catholic, part German Jew) was never remotely taken in by religion at school, having discovered at an early age that the rather weak tea version of Christianity purveyed there was remarkably dull and uninspiring compared with the vast and wonderful universe revealed by science and philosophy, a universe which it is truly not given to us to understand, insofar as the extant of merely what is known about it is far bigger than can fit in the average human brain in the average human lifespan (let alone in a smallish book the size of the Bible). Add in that science and philosophy have a lot to say about religion (think of textual analysis, matching geological evidence to Biblical events, discussions on the meaning of language) while religion doesn't have an awfully meaningful amount to say about science and philosophy, apart from 'shut up or we'll burn you', as Galileo found out, and it looks like a total mismatch of a contest - Tyson v. Tweety Pie, perhaps.
Is it any wonder that ID and other vague attempts by the evangelical to claw back into the dark what has emerged through scientific enlightement looks so pale, insubstantial and worthless to me? What comfort is there in a return to ignorance and mental malnourishment?
*For a given definition of 'exist', a question addressed by philosophers
while religion doesn't have an awfully meaningful amount to say about science and philosophy, apart from 'shut up or we'll burn you', as Galileo found out
No, that's not religion, that's people misusing their faith.
I've yet to find a verse in the bible which says 'shut up or we'll burn you' to scholars or educated men.
No, that's not religion, that's people misusing their faith.
I've yet to find a verse in the bible which says 'shut up or we'll burn you' to scholars or educated men.
Depends if you believe in the Catholic christian view that the book came from the religion, or the protestant christian view that the religion came from the book.
Don't forget to dig up the late David Hume, who flattened ID in the mid-18th century - it's current proponents likely haven't heard of him, being merely one of the great figures of the Enlightenment, which they despise.
<snip>
I think Karl Popper has a thing or two to say about it as well.
Depends if you believe in the Catholic christian view that the book came from the religion, or the protestant christian view that the religion came from the book.
If people are happy to make up the rules away from the 'instruction manual' then that's up to them.
As most people are aware TP is a well known Humanist. Whilst I personally have no need to "group", their philosophy is well worth the human race following (as per Coggys last post) and they do a great funeral (life celebration).
As for "Small Gods" it was the mountain the size of a rock that appealed to me. :D
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If people are happy to make up the rules away from the 'instruction manual' then that's up to them. :nono:
Before the bible/torah/koran there was "no" instruction manual and we have managed to survive so far and will continue to do so.
Before the bible there was "no" instruction manual and we have managed to survive so far.
We had church leaders to guide us, plus existing Old Testament documents.
OT documents have been around since God made regular contact with us.
If people are happy to make up the rules away from the 'instruction manual' then that's up to them.
Especially when you consider it was Constantine (ie first Pope) and the other members of the council of Nicea who decided what should be in the "instruction manual"
And before that the Jewish Elders who decided what should be included in the Torah (although they didn't burn what wasn't included)
Anyway, how did you come to the conclusion that there is no deity to believe in? :)
Especially when you consider it was Constantine (ie first Pope) and the other members of the council of Nicea who decided what should be in the "instruction manual"
It was examples such as this which encouraged the protestant brakeaway in the 1500s - I for one am glad this happened.
Anyway, how did you come to the conclusion that there is no deity to believe in? :)
The same way you came to the conclusion that there was.
It was examples such as this which encouraged the protestant brakeaway in the 1500s - I for one am glad this happened.
Still using the same bible or one created by other men?
The same way you came to the conclusion that there was.
Exactly, which is why I have not posted in the Religion thread.
Erm, is this not the thread about atheism etc. gents?
Still using the same bible or one created by other men?
The one inspired by God
Exactly, which is why I have not posted in the Religion thread.
Ah right, using sarcasm then?
That's my cue to leave this thread...
Erm, is this not the thread about atheism etc. gents?
Exactly!
I can't help agreeing that this thread is wandering a little off topic..
A quiz (http://www.humanism.org.uk/site/cms/contentViewArticle.asp?article=1208) for those who are not sure. You will need a pen and paper.
A quiz for those who are not sure. You will need a pen and paper.
A little bit loaded in the answers it gives, but moderately interesting.
Personally I still go by the quote from Phillip K Dick:
"Reality is that which, when we cease to believe in it, still exists" :)
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I've yet to find a verse in the bible which says 'shut up or we'll burn you' to scholars or educated men.
If it wasn't off topic for this thread and liable to engender tedious claims and counter claims about what bits of the Bible mean and whether we're talking just New Testament or Old Testament as well, I'd start mentioning things like The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's Wife and many others...!
Oops oops:
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As most people are aware TP is a well known Humanist.
And a very smart bloke :)
As for "Small Gods" it was the mountain the size of a rock that appealed to me. :D
Ah, the "Bonsai Mountains", what a marvellous idea :D
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