BBC Multicast

[Chrysalis]

The BBC have started peering with isp's for their multicast service. I believe the following list is current showing already peered and soon to be peered isp's and NTL arent listed. Is NTL planning to provide this service, if unknown can Micke or another contact please ask thanks.

List of current providers:
JANET
C&W
Claranet
NetServices
Bogons.net
PIPEX

In progress :
Eclipse.net
Intervivo.net
Easynet

[gooner4life]

I would assume NTL and BT Would provide the service, without them the BBC would not be reaching many households, i'd be surprised if all of the ISP's listed above with exception of PIPEX had combined subscriber numbers to compare with BT let alone NTL

[DocDutch]

I think the reason the BBC is going for the "little" ISP's is to test if their systems are up to the amount of people going to use their servers.. if you would have NTL and BT with the list instantly the servers surely would overload due to massive demand. now they only have something in total like 1million users, with BT and NTL in there it would be close to 5 million or more even.

I would say give it 6 months max from when its released to the public on the listed ISPs for when it'll be NTL and BT users

[Ignition]

You're misunderstanding the whole point of multicasting - to lower the bandwidth and server requirements from unicasting!

[RileyM]

The BBC have started peering with isp's for their multicast service. I believe the following list is current showing already peered and soon to be peered isp's and NTL arent listed. Is NTL planning to provide this service, if unknown can Micke or another contact please ask thanks.

List of current providers:
JANET
C&W
Claranet
NetServices
Bogons.net
PIPEX

In progress :
Eclipse.net
Intervivo.net
Easynet

I just wanted to ask about this now. Found the BBC/ITV multicast trail website and was surprised to see ntl not there. Any idea on if ntl plan to peer with the BBC on this?

[jrhnewark]

I've emailed NTL about this with no reply. About time they do..

[popper]

iv been banging on about Multicasting for a very long time, and it seems the likes of NTL will not Re-activate multicasting on their routers as a matter of course, BECAUSE they cant find a viable charging model and no other reason.

as iv said for years, it would open up a vast (old)new market, and save everyones bandwidth, and that includes the end users becoming far more effective for streaming their content to many people with nothing more than a single multicast UDP channel (, use VLC for instance, test MC for yourself in your own lan setup, it works a treat).

at least anyone within the NTL network if nothing else, thats assuming they dont want to peer with the EU multicasting network or some other Org (because of cost etc).

you can use multicasting today by tunneling into the multicasted ISP's network, such as the 'SURFnet Detective' app people use and run as part of the vast EU network, alas NTL dont seem to care about the inovation, just the cash......

[RileyM]

iv been banging on about Multicasting for a very long time, and it seems the likes of NTL will not Re-activate multicasting on their routers as a matter of course, BECAUSE they cant find a viable charging model and no other reason.

as iv said for years, it would open up a vast (old)new market, and save everyones bandwidth, and that includes the end users becoming far more effective for streaming their content to many people with nothing more than a single multicast UDP channel (, use VLC for instance, test MC for yourself in your own lan setup, it works a treat).

at least anyone within the NTL network if nothing else, thats assuming they dont want to peer with the EU multicasting network or some other Org (because of cost etc).

you can use multicasting today by tunneling into the multicasted ISP's network, such as the 'SURFnet Detective' app people use and run as part of the vast EU network, alas NTL dont seem to care about the inovation, just the cash......

That's quite sad as they are one of the countries biggest ISPs. So there's no we us ntl suers can try out the BBC multicasting trial if ntl don't plan to support it, is there?

[Bill C]

iv been banging on about Multicasting for a very long time, and it seems the likes of NTL will not Re-activate multicasting on their routers as a matter of course, BECAUSE they cant find a viable charging model and no other reason.

as iv said for years, it would open up a vast (old)new market, and save everyones bandwidth, and that includes the end users becoming far more effective for streaming their content to many people with nothing more than a single multicast UDP channel (, use VLC for instance, test MC for yourself in your own lan setup, it works a treat).

at least anyone within the NTL network if nothing else, thats assuming they dont want to peer with the EU multicasting network or some other Org (because of cost etc).

you can use multicasting today by tunneling into the multicasted ISP's network, such as the 'SURFnet Detective' app people use and run as part of the vast EU network, alas NTL dont seem to care about the inovation, just the cash......
That's quite sad as they are one of the countries biggest ISPs. So there's no we us ntl suers can try out the BBC multicasting trial if ntl don't plan to support it, is there?

If NTL cannot charge you for it they will not let you have.

[Stuart]

iv been banging on about Multicasting for a very long time, and it seems the likes of NTL will not Re-activate multicasting on their routers as a matter of course, BECAUSE they cant find a viable charging model and no other reason.

as iv said for years, it would open up a vast (old)new market, and save everyones bandwidth, and that includes the end users becoming far more effective for streaming their content to many people with nothing more than a single multicast UDP channel (, use VLC for instance, test MC for yourself in your own lan setup, it works a treat).

at least anyone within the NTL network if nothing else, thats assuming they dont want to peer with the EU multicasting network or some other Org (because of cost etc).

you can use multicasting today by tunneling into the multicasted ISP's network, such as the 'SURFnet Detective' app people use and run as part of the vast EU network, alas NTL dont seem to care about the inovation, just the cash......
That's quite sad as they are one of the countries biggest ISPs. So there's no we us ntl suers can try out the BBC multicasting trial if ntl don't plan to support it, is there?


If NTL cannot charge you for it they will not let you have.

Same as any business. I don't see Sky trialing multicast on Easynet..

[Bill C]

iv been banging on about Multicasting for a very long time, and it seems the likes of NTL will not Re-activate multicasting on their routers as a matter of course, BECAUSE they cant find a viable charging model and no other reason.

as iv said for years, it would open up a vast (old)new market, and save everyones bandwidth, and that includes the end users becoming far more effective for streaming their content to many people with nothing more than a single multicast UDP channel (, use VLC for instance, test MC for yourself in your own lan setup, it works a treat).

at least anyone within the NTL network if nothing else, thats assuming they dont want to peer with the EU multicasting network or some other Org (because of cost etc).

you can use multicasting today by tunneling into the multicasted ISP's network, such as the 'SURFnet Detective' app people use and run as part of the vast EU network, alas NTL dont seem to care about the inovation, just the cash......
That's quite sad as they are one of the countries biggest ISPs. So there's no we us ntl suers can try out the BBC multicasting trial if ntl don't plan to support it, is there?

If NTL cannot charge you for it they will not let you have.
Same as any business. I don't see Sky trialing multicast on Easynet..


List of current providers:
JANET
C&W
Claranet
NetServices
Bogons.net
PIPEX

In progress :
Eclipse.net
Intervivo.net
Easynet
?

[Stuart]

I just checked the current list. Easynet are NOT on it.

Also note that despite C&W being on the list, bulldog are excluded

http://www.bbc.co.uk/multicast/

[Bill C]

I just checked the current list. Easynet are NOT on it.

Also note that despite C&W being on the list, bulldog are excluded

http://www.bbc.co.uk/multicast/

Then i stand corrected. :)


However i dont think NTL will offer it anyway. They cannot even provide DNS correctly so how they could offer anything as technical as this is beyond them in my opinion

[Stuart]

However i dont think NTL will offer it anyway. They cannot even provide DNS correctly so how they could offer anything as technical as this is beyond them in my opinion


True. However, NTL provide a lot of the backbone for janet. so their networks can obviously handle it. Admittedly, that's not ntl home.

[Chrysalis]

that list I posted was correct at the time, this thread originated a while ago so things can change.

[Stuart]

that list I posted was correct at the time, this thread originated a while ago so things can change.

I know it was.. I was just pointing out the unilimited that Easynet is no longer on the list.

[thelem]

JANET is pretty big, probably comparable to bt/ntl in terms of end users if not paying customers (since they customers are academic institutions). I tried it a while ago using a uni computer though and I couldn't get it to work, probably due to firewall restrictions.

[Stuart]

JANET is pretty big, probably comparable to bt/ntl in terms of end users if not paying customers (since they customers are academic institutions). I tried it a while ago using a uni computer though and I couldn't get it to work, probably due to firewall restrictions.

Possibly. although AFAIK, most of JANET isn't Multicast enabled. Looking at their website, you have to get your local Network Representative to request it for you..

[popper]

with regards JANET and indeed the other places, its conceavable that you could setup the java mTunnel
http://www.cdt.luth.se/~peppar/progs/mTunnel/ as a server or 100+ on them, and use it in client mode at the NTL end user side to get these H.264 multicasts, any takers to set it up here and advertise the urls?.

---------- Post added at 18:27 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

if you want go a little better and include userspace dns and web server to make it easyer for a test of this,take a look at these rebol scripts
http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/view-script.r?script=dns-async-example.r
and a whole load of simple fully working sample servers to plug the tunnel into for instance
http://www.rebol.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/rebol/search.r?find=web+server&form=yes

http://www.rebol.net/builds/

[RileyM]

that list I posted was correct at the time, this thread originated a while ago so things can change.
Just called ntl about this. The CS agent says they are multicast enabled. And that as a result you should be able to access content on SkySports.com. Not sure if i can as i havent tried that. Will do now.

[James Henry]

Just called ntl about this. The CS agent says they are multicast enabled. And that as a result you should be able to access content on SkySports.com. Not sure if i can as i havent tried that. Will do now.
Hah I somehow doubt that the CS agent has any idea what Multicasting is, not that it's required to get at the content on skysports.com anyway as that's unicasted.

More CS-BS to borrow Neil's term.

[RileyM]

Hah I somehow doubt that the CS agent has any idea what Multicasting is, not that it's required to get at the content on skysports.com anyway as that's unicasted.

More CS-BS to borrow Neil's term.

Yeh i thought so too when calling when they said that.

[alanbboyd]

Possibly. although AFAIK, most of JANET isn't Multicast enabled. Looking at their website, you have to get your local Network Representative to request it for you..
FWIW Multicast is enabled on the JANET backbone, but whether or not it's available to you will be down to the individual institution. I'm not aware of who does and does not have it configured yet, but it should be relatively soon wherever you are.

It's also true to say that fireall's can cause havoc with the BBC trial... :D

[Chrysalis]

if ntl supply janet bandwidth why is downloading of janet servers to ntl so slow?

[alanbboyd]

if ntl supply janet bandwidth why is downloading of janet servers to ntl so slow?
I think I'm probably going too far off topic, but.... NTL have a peering with JANET, but this is just one of many external links off JANET - they don't supply bandwidth per se. As to NTL's internal backbone I have no idea, and I wouldn't like to venture why you're finding this problem but it will depend where on JANET you're pulling the data from? :(

[James Henry]

Hrmm I think I've already said this and think it's been mentioned loads of times, ntl supply JANET with fibre capacity not IP bandwidth for the most part.

I think there are a very few JANET sites that use ntl as a backhaul to the rest of JANET on perhaps 2Mbit up to at most 155Mbit circuits however apart from those isolated examples ntl supply JANET with fibre wavelengths only over which JANET run their 10Gbit goodness.

JANET and ntl peer, ntl do not supply JANET with external bandwidth, it's just a normal private peering.

[Stuart]

if ntl supply janet bandwidth why is downloading of janet servers to ntl so slow?


Depends. It could be many things. One thing is that due to budget constraints, Universities sometimes don't upgrade their servers when they really need to. For instance, in our case, most of our student facing servers (ftp, user areas, email and web servers) are fairly up to date. However, some of the servers for our internal stuff are way out of date. For instance, the database server used to enable web access to student details is a P90!

Also, Unis don't necessarily have fast enough links (again, due to budget). Where I work, we are lucky. The Campus was only opened in 1999, so our networking hardware is (relatively) new. The main Computing department (who manage the network for the whole University) is also based here, so the link tends to get upgraded frequently, and is well maintained.

[alanbboyd]

Universities sometimes don't upgrade their servers when they really need to.

And even if they do you still frequently find said equipment stuck in a darkened room on a thin or even thick 10Mb ethernet.....

[Chrysalis]

I think I'm probably going too far off topic, but.... NTL have a peering with JANET, but this is just one of many external links off JANET - they don't supply bandwidth per se. As to NTL's internal backbone I have no idea, and I wouldn't like to venture why you're finding this problem but it will depend where on JANET you're pulling the data from? :(

various parts of janet, usually 100mbit or 10mbit ftp servers.

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------

Hrmm I think I've already said this and think it's been mentioned loads of times, ntl supply JANET with fibre capacity not IP bandwidth for the most part.

I think there are a very few JANET sites that use ntl as a backhaul to the rest of JANET on perhaps 2Mbit up to at most 155Mbit circuits however apart from those isolated examples ntl supply JANET with fibre wavelengths only over which JANET run their 10Gbit goodness.

JANET and ntl peer, ntl do not supply JANET with external bandwidth, it's just a normal private peering.

so either my transit didnt go over that private peering or something is saturated en route?

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

Depends. It could be many things. One thing is that due to budget constraints, Universities sometimes don't upgrade their servers when they really need to. For instance, in our case, most of our student facing servers (ftp, user areas, email and web servers) are fairly up to date. However, some of the servers for our internal stuff are way out of date. For instance, the database server used to enable web access to student details is a P90!

Also, Unis don't necessarily have fast enough links (again, due to budget). Where I work, we are lucky. The Campus was only opened in 1999, so our networking hardware is (relatively) new. The main Computing department (who manage the network for the whole University) is also based here, so the link tends to get upgraded frequently, and is well maintained.

the uni's i downloaded from had total capacity that could give 10mbit speeds with ease but for some reason to ntl speeds were very low around 40kB/sec, they could send at 3000+kB to germany fine tho. Saying that they were slow to few other uk isps also, but I just asked because if it was going over direct peering it shouldnt be anywhere near as slow as 40kB.