View Full Version : Thread about the Universe
Ok the thread about God led to discussions on the universe and in order for that thread not to go too off-topic I thought we could have a thread about the universe. I would really like to hear other peoples' thoughts on those questions we will never get our heads round. Like the infinity thing. How can that be?? What I really can't get my round is the spatial aspect of it, rather than the temporal. What was there before the universe. If there was nothing, what is nothing? And how could something have been created from nothing??
dilli-theclaw
29-08-2005, 00:28
I just sat and typed a whole load of stuff about this - but realised it was complete rubbish - so had to delete it - sorry :(
I can't even begin to imagine a way to describe the 'nothing' before the universe came into being.
I suppose it all hinges on HOW you believe the universe came into being.
But this isn't a religious thread so the less said about that the better.
I just find it so fascinating. I am also interested in theories on time travel, especially since I saw a programme that suggested ways that it could actually become a reality. The following link leads to an interesting site that raises questions about time travel, and although it concludes that it is quite far-fetched, the issues it raises are interesting.
http://temporal_science.tripod.com/
handyman
29-08-2005, 00:33
The way I see things is the universe is massive. The planets and stars go through a neverending cycle.
ie galaxies collapse into black holes, black holes collapse into larger black holes. Eventually you have 1 big black hole that is unstable as it has all of the universe's mass then it goes bang and cools down. Gas forms planets and stars and these form galaxies which become to big and collapse into black holes......
rinse repeat as required :-)
The universe is a small grain of sand in a moment in time within eternity, which in itself is withiin an obscure part of infinity.
Its indefineable really, as there is no relativity on which one can base analysis.
atlantis
29-08-2005, 00:34
Ok the thread about God led to discussions on the universe and in order for that thread not to go too off-topic I thought we could have a thread about the universe. I would really like to hear other peoples' thoughts on those questions we will never get our heads round. Like the infinity thing. How can that be?? What I really can't get my round is the spatial aspect of it, rather than the temporal. What was there before the universe. If there was nothing, what is nothing? And how could something have been created from nothing??
Wow Clarie, deep thoughts there eh?
Maybe science can't give 100% answers, we might be sometimes best to mix the spiritual and scientific, as I was once told the universe is a sphere, one of 7, they in turn were in a white holding universe. (this from an old guy I went to hear talk, in a meeting on the subject of Spiritualism of all things in Chester).
Other minds from the Science angle say all we are now was created by accident in a war by higher beings, (so called big bang theory) in a new twist.
Truth is, untill our minds evolve along with our science, we'll have to wait for all the answers.
Maybe our entire universe is actually just an atom that forms part of another, much larger universe.
Got that idea from the intro to an episode of The Simpsons.
Could be though...
dilli-theclaw
29-08-2005, 00:37
Ahhh, now time travel theorys and ideas I'm interested in. I have my own theorys on time travel, what I believe about it makes people think I'm a bit nuts tho.
Still - What I believe is that time travel already happens (and has happened in the past - and future).
Now - these time travellers don't autmotacally KNOW they've travelled in time.
I look on it like they're caught up in a 'bubble' of time.
Sometimes other people see them and THIS is how we percieve SOME 'ghosts'
Anyway, that's just my OPINION (most times I tell it people go off on one).
Dilli.
homealone
29-08-2005, 00:38
the thing i find the most immense is that the atoms in my body were made in stars, and may have been 'recycled' many times - how that could end up with me having thoughts, or even writing them on the internet, is not clear ....
the thing i find the most immense is that the atoms in my body were made in stars, and may have been 'recycled' many times - how that could end up with me having thoughts, or even writing them on the internet, is not clear ....
Hence the expression ' carbon copy'
Something else I find fascinating - life on other planets. Now I am a FIRM believer that there is life on other planets, and find it quite surprising when other people don't believe it. I reckon it's quite an (unintentionally) arrogant viewpoint, and I reckon there are aliens out there saying: "yep, that's right earthlings, yep you're the only planet out there with life it on. In the ENTIRE universe. Yeah you keep thinking that."
Its funny you mention the universe as we were having a discussion with my friends about this just last night.
An idea put forward was that ants are very small and we are like massive to them. What about if we were like ants in comparison to another life form. Eg. Earth could be the size of an apple and other beings be absolutely massive. We might be the size of bacteria compared to others.
We spent ages and ages coming up with theories but then your head starts to hurt and you know its time to give up.
Or how we have deja veu could this be a link to alternative universes, where say in this one you chose to reply to this topic, and in another you chose not to, and in another you go banned after replying, and in another one you died while replying.
The lists and ends of the universes secrets are behond our wildest dreams of thoughts.
homealone
29-08-2005, 00:46
the thing i find the most immense is that the atoms in my body were made in stars, and may have been 'recycled' many times - how that could end up with me having thoughts, or even writing them on the internet, is not clear ....
Hence the expression ' carbon copy'
it should be 'hydrogen copy' ;)
Then comes the question.....are our dreams in fact reality. Could daily life be fake and our dreams be the truth ?
Sometimes my dreams are so real its like I am actually there.
I often meet people and I want to know who they are in my dreams. Who decideds who I meet and what I dream about.....could we be being controlled through our minds.
(Ok I've watched too many movies) .
Its funny you mention the universe as we were having a discussion with my friends about this just last night.
An idea put forward was that ants are very small and we are like massive to them. What about if we were like ants in comparison to another life form. Eg. Earth could be the size of an apple and other beings be absolutely massive. We might be the size of bacteria compared to others.
And it's funny YOU should say THAT cos I was thinking about the universe last night and wondering if there are aliens out there whose planet is so big that they can use our planets as stepping stones. Then I realised that if an alien that big stepped on our planet that would be the last thing we ever experienced.
I was just being silly.
Or how we have deja veu could this be a link to alternative universes, where say in this one you chose to reply to this topic, and in another you chose not to, and in another you go banned after replying, and in another one you died while replying.
And it's funny YOU should say THAT just cos it is. Actually I liked the explanation that deja vu was a 'glitch in the matrix'. Also makes me think of the film 'Sliding Doors'. Deja vu is certainly a strange phenomena.
homealone
29-08-2005, 00:49
Maybe our entire universe is actually just an atom that forms part of another, much larger universe.
Got that idea from the intro to an episode of The Simpsons.
Could be though...
like 'the galaxy' in 'Men in Black'?
like 'the galaxy' in 'Men in Black'?
I don't remember that. But I rather like the idea that we are just a speck of dust in the corner of a giant's bedroom.
Always good to think of when you have a problem, especially if it's not a big one.
Eg 'Well I missed this week's episode of 'Lost' but in the big scheme of things does it really matter?'
homealone
29-08-2005, 00:57
like 'the galaxy' in 'Men in Black'?
I don't remember that. But I rather like the idea that we are just a speck of dust in the corner of a giant's bedroom.
Always good to think of when you have a problem, especially if it's not a big one.
Eg 'Well I missed this week's episode of 'Lost' but in the big scheme of things does it really matter?'
In the context of the tv prog, i agree - but in the bigger perspective I reserve a right of discussion, thankyou for the opportunity ;)
What I would love to know is where the end is. Like imagine you are heading north straight up into the universe and after a very long time in space you suddenly arrive at a sign saying "This is the top of space". What is there, is it a brick wall of rock ? Do we actually never find it and instead go round and round and round.
Whatever the universe is, I doubt we will discover much more about it ourselves. If anyone does get further it will be a more powerful creation that can somehow build and transport people beyond the beyond.
Right my words and coming out all over the place now, Im tired and off to bed. Time to dream and switch off from this galaxy for a while.
I once had a very interesting convo with some kid in a chair, sticks to my mind even to this day.
He said that what if a Alien being came to Earth, in his Galaxy or planet the material physics of his being could be different to ours.
So he may land half way down in a Ocean and see floating whales and dolphins, baffled by this he leaves, we enter his planet and see the same thing but to him he sees a Ocean.
This brings into it not only alternative realities but alternative planes of existence where material things could be different depending on the universal build up of each living microcell.
timewarrior2001
29-08-2005, 09:29
Maybe our entire universe is actually just an atom that forms part of another, much larger universe.
Got that idea from the intro to an episode of The Simpsons.
Could be though...
Kinda interesting that, I often thought about our universe being part of a bigger thing and we being like an antibody in the bloodstream of that thing. Weird huh, dont worry I am on medication :D
What interests me is that in order for the big bang theory to be correct, the universe that is still expanding must have been contained within something. After all it cannot expand into nothing, so there has to be a bigger picture.
I believe in the big bang theory, I dont think we fully understand it, but the fact that NASA appears to have picked up the echo still bouncing around in space is a good sign, but it also makes you wonder what its echoing off and what it is, AFAIK sound cannot travel in a vacuum.
As for time travel, well I dont really believe we could travel in time as such, but perhaps it is in a manner possible. For example, if you exceed the speed of light from point A to point B, you get to point B before the light has gotten there, therefore you see point B before "Now" As such you could interpret this as travelling in time.
But Stephen Hawkins said it best.
"Do you think time travel is possible?"
"No"
"Why?"
"No ones come back yet"
What interests me is that in order for the big bang theory to be correct, the universe that is still expanding must have been contained within something. After all it cannot expand into nothing,
Yes it can, just our minds have trouble understanding that :)
so there has to be a bigger picture.
I believe in the big bang theory, I dont think we fully understand it, but the fact that NASA appears to have picked up the echo still bouncing around in space is a good sign, but it also makes you wonder what its echoing off and what it is, AFAIK sound cannot travel in a vacuum.
It's not a sound echo, it's an electro magnetic wave echo.
The energy of an electromagnetic wave is related to it's wavelength, and the energy of the big bang which is at the furthest edge of the universe has cooled down to microwave levels.
zing_deleted
29-08-2005, 10:50
Science will explain the universe to the best of its ability big bang this sonic wave that.What no scientist has ever answered to me is if the universe is expanding what is it expanding into.Best thing you can do is giggle hope the below link helps :)
http://www.mwscomp.com/sounds/mp3/galaxy.mp3
__________________
As for time travel, well I dont really believe we could travel in time as such, but perhaps it is in a manner possible. For example, if you exceed the speed of light from point A to point B, you get to point B before the light has gotten there, therefore you see point B before "Now" As such you could interpret this as travelling in time.
But Stephen Hawkins said it best.
"Do you think time travel is possible?"
"No"
"Why?"
"No ones come back yet"
Chaos theory would dictate very strict rules on time travel.For all we know time travelers could be here right now
Only thing I am interested in, is that the whole universe is NOT running on Windows.
Look at the last big bang for example of a ultimate BSOD. :D
Seriously interesting replies though peeps :D
If somebody did travel back in time and change something how would you know :shrug:
if they could then there future self allready has so there would be no need to :confused:
If somebody did travel back in time and change something how would you know :shrug:
if they could then there future self allready has so there would be no need to :confused:
I like the idea that if you travel through time, you actually go to another probably universe rather than stay in the current one, so you could go back in time and kill your grandfather, because it's not really your grandfather, but if you get caught, you'll still be in trouble.
What I would love to know is where the end is. Like imagine you are heading north straight up into the universe and after a very long time in space you suddenly arrive at a sign saying "This is the top of space". What is there, is it a brick wall of rock ? Do we actually never find it and instead go round and round and round.
Was wondering this myself. If you are on the very edge of the expanding universe what do you see outside? Nothing? Like when you close your eyes, or in total darkness when you literally see nothing? But then not even darkness. I imagine it's like when you close your eyes.
Oh dear!I had just about stomped down my concerns about imment death(being past middle age) and now you've got me worrying about my insignificence in the vastness of the universe...AGAIN! :D ;)
Was wondering this myself. If you are on the very edge of the expanding universe what do you see outside? Nothing? Like when you close your eyes, or in total darkness when you literally see nothing? But then not even darkness. I imagine it's like when you close your eyes.
Well, if the universe is an expanding bubble, then we're all on the inner wall, currently unable to "jump" off it.
So if you kept moving, you'd eventually get back to where you started.
Well, if the universe is an expanding bubble, then we're all on the inner wall, currently unable to "jump" off it.
So if you kept moving, you'd eventually get back to where you started.
I imagine you're right. But what if we were on the outer wall? Impossible maybe. What would we see? Or is there not an outer wall. And what forms the wall? What form does the barrier take? I know no one knows this and even if they did it would probably be impossible for our minds to imagine it. I asked someone once how there could possible be an infinite number of planets and stars and things and they told me the reason I can't imagine that is because nothing physical on earth is infinite.
I don't know if there are infinite planets and stars but there must be infinity out there in some form.
I imagine you're right. But what if we were on the outer wall? Impossible maybe. What would we see? Or is there not an outer wall. And what forms the wall? What form does the barrier take? I know no one knows this and even if they did it would probably be impossible for our minds to imagine it. I asked someone once how there could possible be an infinite number of planets and stars and things and they told me the reason I can't imagine that is because nothing physical on earth is infinite.
I don't know if there are infinite planets and stars but there must be infinity out there in some form.
Rest assured, there is a finite number of natural stars and planets :)
We can't be on the outside as we'd be on the outside of universe, and we all know what happend to homer when he went there!
The three physical dimentions we perceive are contrained by the limitations of the universe, you can't go "throught to the other side" of the 1st 2nd or 3rd dimension, but you can "move about" within all three at the same time (which of course is the 4th, and we're all time travellers moving forward)
my brain hurts the scene at the end of men in black comes to mind :eek:
patrickp
29-08-2005, 13:43
the thing i find the most immense is that the atoms in my body were made in stars, and may have been 'recycled' many times - how that could end up with me having thoughts, or even writing them on the internet, is not clear ....
Hence the expression ' carbon copy'
it should be 'hydrogen copy' ;)
Hydrogen is probably the only element that was present in the primal universe. Some of this condensed into stars, which first fused it to helium, then started to form heavier elements as they aged and ran out of hydrogen, and then exploded as novas or even supernovas, producing larger quantities of even heavier elements. This would have continued through several generations of stars, producing more and heavier elements.
It was these heavy elements that gave rise to planets and smaller non-stellar bodies, and subsequently allowed life to occur. On this planet, the essential element that enabled the complex molecules necessary for protoplasmic life (us) was carbon, due to its unusual ability to form multiple electronic bonds to other atoms.
So "carbon copy" is actually very appropriate.
Patrick
Rest assured, there is a finite number of natural stars and planets :)
Maybe there are though...
Maybe there are though...
They may not all have been created yet, but there is a finite amount of mass in the universe.
They may not all have been created yet, but there is a finite amount of mass in the universe.
What makes you so sure?
What makes you so sure?
How do I know that there isn't something pumping masses of, well, um, mass into the universe?
Oh dear!I had just about stomped down my concerns about imment death(being past middle age) and now you've got me worrying about my insignificence in the vastness of the universe...AGAIN! :D ;)
Hang on Coggy, you can't be past middle age that lasts until retiremment so at least another 13 years to go for you (if you are still menopausal then definitely not).
I don't even think of myself as middle aged yet and I'm 46.
As for the universe the answers................
42!
patrickp
29-08-2005, 13:57
How do I know that there isn't something pumping masses of, well, um, mass into the universe?
Or extracting it? ;-)
How do I know that there isn't something pumping masses of, well, um, mass into the universe?
I suppose my point is, we don't know anything with certainty about the universe. If there was no starting point in time, why should there be an ending point in space? And we don't know that space is not just the universe. Maybe the universe is infinite.
homealone
29-08-2005, 14:13
<snip>
Hydrogen is probably the only element that was present in the primal universe. Some of this condensed into stars, which first fused it to helium, then started to form heavier elements as they aged and ran out of hydrogen, and then exploded as novas or even supernovas, producing larger quantities of even heavier elements. This would have continued through several generations of stars, producing more and heavier elements.
It was these heavy elements that gave rise to planets and smaller non-stellar bodies, and subsequently allowed life to occur. On this planet, the essential element that enabled the complex molecules necessary for protoplasmic life (us) was carbon, due to its unusual ability to form multiple electronic bonds to other atoms.
So "carbon copy" is actually very appropriate.
Patrick
good point, Patrick - bizarrely that came over (to me) as the difference between a song released as a single & the same song released later as a remix on a compilation album - same source, just mucked about with, a bit ;)
We can't be on the outside as we'd be on the outside of universe, and we all know what happend to homer when he went there!
The three physical dimentions we perceive are contrained by the limitations of the universe, you can't go "throught to the other side" of the 1st 2nd or 3rd dimension, but you can "move about" within all three at the same time (which of course is the 4th, and we're all time travellers moving forward)
- some theories predict many more that the four dimensions we are 'used' to
Or extracting it? ;-)
Then there would still be a finite number of stars and planet, just fewer than if nothing was extracting it
patrickp
29-08-2005, 14:44
We can't be on the outside as we'd be on the outside of universe, and we all know what happend to homer when he went there!
The three physical dimentions we perceive are contrained by the limitations of the universe, you can't go "throught to the other side" of the 1st 2nd or 3rd dimension, but you can "move about" within all three at the same time (which of course is the 4th, and we're all time travellers moving forward)
- some theories predict many more that the four dimensions we are 'used' to
IIRC the fourth dimension of our universe is a spatial dimension, not time. If you think of time as another dimension, which is not unreasonable, then we're talking about a five-dimensional universe, of which we have reasonable perception of three of the spatial dimensions, limited perception of another (time), and no direct perception of the fourth spatial dimension.
To try to explain it (yes, I know that Xaccers and homealone already know this) the usual analogy is to a two-dimensional universe on the surface of a three-dimensional sphere, where the inhabitants can only perceive the two dimensions of their world. They would, presumably have the same limited perception of time as we have; but that doesn't come into this. Call it Flatland.
If you hoick this up a dimension, you come to us, who live in a three-dimensional universe on the surface of a four dimensional sphere (well, it wouldn't be a sphere; it would bear the same relationship to a sphere as a sphere does to a circle - call it a hypersphere for convenience).
A common description of our universe is that it is finite but unbounded - that means there is a finite amount of matter and space (and energy) in it, just as with Flatland, but you can go in any direction in the three dimensions we can perceive and never encounter a boundary to the universe - just as with Flatland's two dimensions. You can arrive back at your starting point, though.
In a universe the size of ours, you'd be unlikely to recognise it; the journey would have taken an extremely large amount of time, even at the speed of light (not for you as the traveller, who would experience no passage of time at light speed, but for the rest of the universe) and, apart from changes in the universe in the meantime, whatever planet/system/galaxy you had started from would be somewhere else.
Clear? No? Must be a quantum effect... mutter... ;-)
As for the universe the answers................
42!well thats this thread nackered theres always one with the answer :rolleyes:
So what's the fourth dimension then? Does it have a name?
So what's the fourth dimension then? Does it have a name?
time ?
IIRC the fourth dimension of our universe is a spatial dimension, not time. If you think of time as another dimension, which is not unreasonable, then we're talking about a five-dimensional universe,
Apparently not...
patrickp
29-08-2005, 14:50
Or extracting it? ;-)
Then there would still be a finite number of stars and planet, just fewer than if nothing was extracting it
Well, it wasn't me. I would _never_ extract it... :angel:
homealone
29-08-2005, 15:00
Well, it wasn't me. I would _never_ extract it... :angel:
- well no, because that would beg the question of whose urine it was, and how it got there :erm: :D
I find discussion about the nature of the universe fascinating, even more so with the attempts to come up with a verifiable model which allows one explanation for all the various aspects of matter, time & energy.
This article has enough in it to boggle my mind - 11 or 26 dimensions, anyone??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory
:)
patrickp
29-08-2005, 15:00
IIRC the fourth dimension of our universe is a spatial dimension, not time. If you think of time as another dimension, which is not unreasonable, then we're talking about a five-dimensional universe,
Apparently not...
Well, if you want to consider the current supposed nature of the universe as finite and unbounded, and include time in that, you need five dimensions. Occam's Razor.
To consider the possible nature of the 'hyper-universe' that includes ours, you need several more. But they're getting much cheaper nowadays... ;-)
Wow man, you're like, totally frying my mind dude.
Even more interested in it all now than I ever was before.
So come on people what about aliens? Reckon they exist? Reckon alien abductions do happen? Gosh imagine what other planets with lifeforms are like...
Wow man, you're like, totally frying my mind dude.
Even more interested in it all now than I ever was before.
So come on people what about aliens? Reckon they exist? Reckon alien abductions do happen? Gosh imagine what other planets with lifeforms are like...
Yes.
Most definitely exists/has existed/will exist elswhere in the universe.
Abductions are most likely due to sleep paralysis (my shift partner suffers from this which is quite handy as I've never met a case of it before)
Basically, you know when you sleep, your body gets paralised so you don't act out your dreams? Well this can sometimes go wrong.
Sleep walking is where your body doesn't get paralised, so you move about while you dream.
Sleep paralysis is where you wake up but your body is still paralised.
With this, people get a sensation of being held down, like someone is sitting on their chest, and they are being watched. It can also produce a sexual respose.
Most people fall back to sleep and don't remember anything about it.
In the past, it's believed to have been the source of ideas about incubus and sucubus.
In the far east, the phenomenon is known as the grey ghost.
With the x-files and UFO mania in the west, our brains interpret it as alien abduction.
homealone
29-08-2005, 17:32
Wow man, you're like, totally frying my mind dude.
Even more interested in it all now than I ever was before.
So come on people what about aliens? Reckon they exist? Reckon alien abductions do happen? Gosh imagine what other planets with lifeforms are like...
ah - 'Life, Jim - but not as we know it'...
recent discoveries of life at extremes of environmental conditions on Earth leads me to conclude life does exist on other planets.
But intelligent life, 'aliens' - to be honest, I would like to think so, the implications would be profound.
So far, though, the best evidence anyone 'out there', is intelligent, is that they have kept well away from us ;)
I have heard some stuff about sleep paralysis and it's not nice. The traditional 'vision' if you will, is of an old hag who kneels on your chest and prevents you from breathing. Terrifying I should imagine.
But I'm not sure that it covers alien abduction. People who claim to have been abducted speak of actually moving, of being taken aboard a ship, experimented on, having things implanted in them etc. Not the same as being suffocated in sleep.
I have heard some stuff about sleep paralysis and it's not nice. The traditional 'vision' if you will, is of an old hag who kneels on your chest and prevents you from breathing. Terrifying I should imagine.
But I'm not sure that it covers alien abduction. People who claim to have been abducted speak of actually moving, of being taken aboard a ship, experimented on, having things implanted in them etc. Not the same as being suffocated in sleep.
They've done studies on people who claim to be abducted alot and have found they suffer from sleep paralysis.
Sleep paralysis just gives you the sensation of a weight on your chest becasue you can't breath much, however your mind fills in the rest, and if you know about alien abduction, that what your brain fills in, just as 100 years and more ago people knew about sucubi and so filled it in with the hag, and in the far east, they know about the grey ghost.
Also, why abduct humans to learn about us, risking being seen etc, when they could just abduct the books from the library, or use google, or watch the discovery channel? :)
Also with UFO's over Nevada, well that's where they test their secret planes.
Take the F117, think it first flew back in the late 70's, but most people didn't know about it until 20 years later.
We now now they're flying UAV's (unmanned planes) which of course can make much sharper turns and accellerate much faster than a normal jet because they don't have a pilot restricting them.
That could account for the erratic lights over the desert.
They've done studies on people who claim to be abducted alot and have found they suffer from sleep paralysis.
Sleep paralysis just gives you the sensation of a weight on your chest becasue you can't breath much, however your mind fills in the rest, and if you know about alien abduction, that what your brain fills in, just as 100 years and more ago people knew about sucubi and so filled it in with the hag, and in the far east, they know about the grey ghost.
Oh I see. Well that's one possible explanation then.
Oh I see. Well that's one possible explanation then.
Yup, another is that little grey men are abducting americans (ok, is this good for our planetary image?)
Or oversexed demons are going around ravashing people in their sleep (I'm sure some people wouldn't object)
just passing through
http://www.gafintl-adamski.com/html/AboutGA.htm
oops i dropped something :disturbd:
just passing through
http://www.gafintl-adamski.com/html/AboutGA.htm
oops i dropped something :disturbd:
No you didn't
Move along
There's nothing to see here
It was just Venus refracting off of marsh gas
timewarrior2001
29-08-2005, 18:05
Wow man, you're like, totally frying my mind dude.
Even more interested in it all now than I ever was before.
So come on people what about aliens? Reckon they exist? Reckon alien abductions do happen? Gosh imagine what other planets with lifeforms are like...
I'd imagine there are other life forms, I think it likely that at some point they have visited Earth.
I doubt very much that they are interested in some of the Yanks that were allegedly abducted, I mean if they wanted to study humans they arent gonna get much of an Idea from an American.....or rather the types of Yank that seem to get abducted.
My thoughts on alien life is that they may not be carbon based lifeforms, they probably walk on 4 legs as do many many of our own species. I dont know if they would be humanoid in shape, I guess that would be great but nature doesnt make too many lifeforms with only 2 legs.
One thing that troubles me though is the vastness of space, its gonna take a long tiume before we can travel those distances and I wonder if alien worlds would last long enough to evolve and keep in constant contact, or if we saw many legitimate ones in the early days of human civilasation.
There's a great bit at the end of the Rama series where its shown how various alien civilisations have expanded and collapsed, and how one nearly reached earth before pulling back
Anyway, back to the universe, can anyone remind me what the latest thinking on why there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe is?
Electrolyte01
29-08-2005, 18:17
All I can say is about the universe - if it is just us, seems like an awful waste of space.
homealone
29-08-2005, 18:42
Anyway, back to the universe, can anyone remind me what the latest thinking on why there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe is?
Charge Parity Violation, apparently??? (after a quick Google) - they are hoping the Large Hadron Collider will throw more light on the phenomenon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
:)
Some 'scientists' say that if life does exist elsewhere, it's highly likely to be in insect form, considering some insects' ability to withstand extreme conditions. Apparently when they examine the area after a nuclear explosion, ants and cockroaches can be seen to carrying on as if nothing ever happened.
Some 'scientists' say that if life does exist elsewhere, it's highly likely to be in insect form, considering some insects' ability to withstand extreme conditions. Apparently when they examine the area after a nuclear explosion, ants and cockroaches can be seen to carrying on as if nothing ever happened.
so bolton is safe then :disturbd:
The possibilities are endless. I am sure there must be other intelligent life forms out there. Hopefully who are a lot more sensible than us.
If they were ever to observe us they would be like "??? So not only does these earthlings call themselves intelligent, they actually think they are the most intelligent beings in the entire universe. And yet they are killing each other with surprising frequency, destroying their environment, and still arguing over territory thousands of years after they arrived. And half of them live in luxury whilst the other half starve. Yep, let's get rid of 'em."
timewarrior2001
29-08-2005, 19:52
The possibilities are endless. I am sure there must be other intelligent life forms out there. Hopefully who are a lot more sensible than us.
If they were ever to observe us they would be like "??? So not only does these earthlings call themselves intelligent, they actually think they are the most intelligent beings in the entire universe. And yet they are killing each other with surprising frequency, destroying their environment, and still arguing over territory thousands of years after they arrived. And half of them live in luxury whilst the other half starve. Yep, let's get rid of 'em."
........And slowly but surely they drew their plans against us......DA DA DAAAAA :D
ScaredWebWarrior
29-08-2005, 20:33
Like the infinity thing. How can that be?? What I really can't get my round is the spatial aspect of it, rather than the temporal.
Infinite space is exactly like infinite time. If you 'get' one, then the other really isn't much harder.
But I think I understand what you're getting at.
Assuming that infinite is <this/> big, what's outside of that? No matter how big infinite gets, in your mind's eye you'll always 'see' it as some finite space, hence your thoughts will turn to what's beyond.
What was there before the universe. If there was nothing, what is nothing?
Even the 'nothing' of space isn't nothing. So, If we accept our finite 'infinite' universe, then let's accept that spread throughout this infinite space was a finite amount of matter, but spread around so thinly, you might as well call it nothing. (I'd even allow an infinite amount of matter spread out like this, and it would still work.)
And how could something have been created from nothing??
It probably wasn't (unless <God/> did - oops, different thread) - perhaps we'll let physics do it's stuff. We have to assume that the laws of physics ("I canna break the laws of physics, cap'n!") are in effect, then all this matter starts coagulating - into larger clumps. These clump together, until you have enough matter piling into itself to be the 'cosmic egg' - then follows the 'big bang', and hey presti - one universe is 'created'.)
Alternatively, we have some form of instantaneous energy->matter conversion, which then forms the source of the big bang.
My personal theory is that the 'big bang' is, in fact, the outpouring of material from a 'white hole' - itself the 'other end' of a 'black hole', which was formed from the complete collapse of another universe.
This would have one universe collapsing to create a new one, in a cycle that is never ending. (And, obviously, doesn't have a beginning either!)
Being that in this case there would be one universe 'created' as another is destroyed, it would also assume the existence of multiple universes. Not necessarily parallel ones, just more than one.
It might then also be that infinity is just a very large (infinite?) collection of universes - collapsing into black holes and expanding from white holes.
Or, my personal favourite, that as 'the universe' collapses into a black hole, the white hole at the other end 'creates' a new universe. This seems to fit nocely with the big bang/cosmic egg type of scenario, incorporates the expaning/collapsing universe and puts black/white holes into the equation too. It has the advantage of not requiring additional universes for it to balance out.
It does, however, leave the problem of what is it that contains this endless cycle of destruction/creation? Is it some infinity, or is it just something larger than we can comprehend? Much as a goldfish wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a 5 liter bowl and a 500,000 litre swimming pool...
__________________
The possibilities are endless. I am sure there must be other intelligent life forms out there.
I am certain there is life elsewhere in the universe. I am certain there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.
There must be - there's not much of it around here...
Hopefully who are a lot more sensible than us.
Can we know who's terms of reference we're going to use to define 'sensible'?
Also, are we assuming these aliens do not have any 'beliefs' at all? They're purely driven my logic and intelligence?
Yep, let's get rid of 'em."
Hmmm. You're making these 'aliens' sound like humans now...
__________________
Apparently when they examine the area after a nuclear explosion, ants and cockroaches can be seen to carrying on as if nothing ever happened.
If they looked at Hiroshima/Nagasaki today, they'd conclude the same about humans...
atlantis
29-08-2005, 20:46
Or how we have deja veu could this be a link to alternative universes, where say in this one you chose to reply to this topic, and in another you chose not to, and in another you go banned after replying, and in another one you died while replying.
The lists and ends of the universes secrets are behond our wildest dreams of thoughts.
Yes Saxo, the infinite parallel universe theory, Star Trek TNG, with Worf returning via shuttle, did a fantastic job on this subject.
homealone
29-08-2005, 21:04
<snip>
several thought provoking ideas, there, SWW, one of the concepts I like about string theory, is that you don't 'see' a new dimension, until you get 'close' to it, so the idea of a container for the kind of massively parallel universe you imagined, doesn't really matter - we are only aware of the bit we are in ;)
I saw a brill Twilight Zone a bit back that posed a weird theory! The prog suggested the only space that exists is the one around each person.... so say your in a roof unless someone else is in a room around you the other area doesn't exist until you or someone goes through it!
Dave Stones
29-08-2005, 23:08
if anyone has ever read "it" by stephen king, they will know that the universe is a big pile of turtle sick :p:
I think there are definately other beings somewhere out there.
If you look at documentaries where they have gone deep into underwater caves and places deep below the earth where there was only certain gases (not oxygen), lifeforms were found.
It would just be good to finmally get some big evidence of aliens coming to earth. That they came peacefully . We need some sort of clues.
homealone
29-08-2005, 23:14
I saw a brill Twilight Zone a bit back that posed a weird theory! The prog suggested the only space that exists is the one around each person.... so say your in a roof unless someone else is in a room around you the other area doesn't exist until you or someone goes through it!
that sounds a bit like 'Cube'
Dave Stones
29-08-2005, 23:17
oh lord, cube...
cube zero, the most freaky film i've had the displeasure of seeing in a long while... that weird man with the leg leg and creepy metal eye who worked outside the box scared me.... :cry:
Can we know who's terms of reference we're going to use to define 'sensible'?
Yeah you can use mine if you like!
Also, are we assuming these aliens do not have any 'beliefs' at all? They're purely driven my logic and intelligence?
No I don't think so. I think intelligence assumes some degree of free thought unless it is artificial, in which case beliefs are probably a given.
Ok the thread about God led to discussions on the universe and in order for that thread not to go too off-topic I thought we could have a thread about the universe.
Well I've just read through this thread and been surprised that no-one's come up with either of the following:
"In the Beginning the Universe was created.
"This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a Bad Move"
or
Reason notwithstanding, the Universe continued unabated
Ahem, in any case...
the infinity thing. How can that be?? What I really can't get my round is the spatial aspect of it, rather than the temporal. What was there before the universe. If there was nothing, what is nothing? And how could something have been created from nothing??
Well "what was there before the universe" *is* temporal, not spatial and I'd recommend the excellent Science of Discworld for some observations on this.
The problem is that humans, by our very existance, see things as having a beginning, duration and an end and the question "what was there before the universe?" may not *be* a valid question at all (this is a seriously weird concept!) because it wasn't until the universe happened that there was Time for the there to *be* a "before"!!
As to the spatial bit, consider that you can travel around the world for ever without reaching an "end" (unlike, say, The Edge on the Discworld) but, none the less, the world is not infinite.
__________________
What I believe is that time travel already happens (and has happened in the past - and future).
Now - these time travellers don't autmotacally KNOW they've travelled in time.
I look on it like they're caught up in a 'bubble' of time.
Sometimes other people see them and THIS is how we percieve SOME 'ghosts'
"Sapphire and Steel have been assigned" :D
__________________
Or how we have deja veu could this be a link to alternative universes,
"Wake up, Neo..."
__________________
But Stephen Hawkins said it best.
"Do you think time travel is possible?"
"No"
"Why?"
"No ones come back yet"
It's my theory that Time Travel will be invented by someone coming back from the future to see how on earth we managed to invent time travel and then discovering that we didn't, so he has to invent it himself otherwise he won't have the time machine to use to come back in the first place...!
(Yes, I *know* this is from The Big Book of SF Cliches :D )
"Sapphire and Steel have been assigned" :D
now that was one crap program :Yikes:
Reckon alien abductions do happen?
Abductions are most likely due to sleep paralysis (my shift partner suffers from this which is quite handy as I've never met a case of it before)
I've mentioned this before on here, but I've had the experience of this (no "grey ghost"/ "night hag"/ alien but the feeling of presence whilst paralysed) and it was somewhat unnerving until something went "click" in my head and I realised that I knew what was happening and suddenly I was just watching a very interesting experience :)
__________________
Also, why abduct humans to learn about us,
More to the point, why *Americans*...?! :confused: :D
__________________
There's nothing to see here
It was just Venus refracting off of marsh gas
<Puts on shades>
Just have a look at this...
<Flash> :shocked: :disturbd:
__________________
All I can say is about the universe - if it is just us, seems like an awful waste of space.
Thank you, Carl ;)
__________________
oh lord, cube...
Don't get me started on Cube!
The idea was interesting, the execution lousy and the follow ups nonsensical :grind:
__________________
"Sapphire and Steel have been assigned" :D
now that was one crap program :Yikes:
Eh??
Ok, its production values were a bit ropey, but the idea was bloody brilliant and it's still one of the most original and inventive pieces of TV SF (Fantasy? Some other genre without a name!) ever!!
a bit ropey !!!
you mean crap :)
a bit ropey !!!
you mean crap :)
But the general idea of the program was excellent (just needed someone else to do it). I watched avidly (but was in the dark ages).:D
let's keep on topic please people...
So the universe......
Couldnt we just send a rocket up and see where it gets to.
With a camera attached to it.
In fact, how far can you go before transmission of radio / images would cut out ?
zing_deleted
30-08-2005, 11:39
So the universe......
Couldnt we just send a rocket up and see where it gets to.
With a camera attached to it.
In fact, how far can you go before transmission of radio / images would cut out ?
as long as theres power there will be signal.eventually the signal will take so long to get here that any information will be years out of date
Electrolyte01
30-08-2005, 12:15
Thank you, Carl ;)
:confused:
homealone
30-08-2005, 12:22
Thank you, Carl ;)
:confused:
the quote was originally attributed to Carl Sagan
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Carl_Sagan#Attributed
;)
- as an aside, I was interested to learn, after reading some of the links in this thread, that PET scans in hospital use antimatter (i.e. positrons), I hadn't thought about that before.
So the universe......
Couldnt we just send a rocket up and see where it gets to.
With a camera attached to it.
In fact, how far can you go before transmission of radio / images would cut out ?
I think the pioneer probes are just leaving our solar system and they were sent up in the 70's
homealone
30-08-2005, 18:30
So the universe......
Couldnt we just send a rocket up and see where it gets to.
With a camera attached to it.
In fact, how far can you go before transmission of radio / images would cut out ?
I think the pioneer probes are just leaving our solar system and they were sent up in the 70's
the Voyager ones are still transmitting data..
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212_fall2003.web.dir/Brian_Herold/currently.html
;)
Theodoric
30-08-2005, 18:42
the Voyager ones are still transmitting data..
http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/212_fall2003.web.dir/Brian_Herold/currently.html
;)
And one of the series, either Voyager or Pioneer, is not quite where gravitational theory says it should be, which has raised various speculations about whether the inverse square law is not quite so square after all.
homealone
30-08-2005, 18:45
And one of the series, either Voyager or Pioneer, is not quite where gravitational theory says it should be, which has raised various speculations about whether the inverse square law is not quite so square after all.
thanks Theo, I'll have to have a look for that, nice one :tu:
Theodoric
30-08-2005, 18:55
thanks Theo, I'll have to have a look for that, nice one :tu:
Try New Scientist. It's been mentioned there once or twice.
So the universe......
Couldnt we just send a rocket up and see where it gets to.
With a camera attached to it.
Well, theoretically, but given that the nearest star (apart from the sun, for all the pedants reaching for their keyboards!! :PP: ) is around 4 lightyears away (ie it takes *light* moving at 3*10^8 m/s four years to get there) and our fastest space vehicles can only travel at a tiny fraction of this, it would be a *very* long time before we found out anything useful!
In fact, how far can you go before transmission of radio / images would cut out ?
It's a matter of signal power, electromagnetic radiation (light, radio etc) propgates based on the inverse square law, ie if you had a signal strength of one unit at one metre, the strength would be 1/4 of it (1 over the square of the distance) at two metres away.
We can pick up incredibly faint signals (IIRC the Pioneer 10 spacecraft is putting out less than the energy of a 100W light bulb!) but that's only just gone beyond the (putative) edge of the solar system and it's starting to be lost in the cosmic background noise.
__________________
Thank you, Carl ;)
:confused:
Watch the film "Contact" based on the book by Carl Sagan :)
:scratch: mmm star trek the motion picture comes to mind there with v gr (voyager):Yikes:
ScaredWebWarrior
30-08-2005, 20:51
:scratch: mmm star trek the motion picture comes to mind there with v ga (voyager):Yikes:
You mean V'ger :)
liamboyle06
30-08-2005, 20:57
I find Black Holes strangely good topic.
If there is a black hole, how is it represented in space?
a hole is a 2D object, so if this was in space, you would see it from the front but not the side.
May be it should be called a Black Blob?
I'm sorry, has the Eugene (from BB) Appreciation Society suddenly been let out for the week or something??? :D ;)
ScaredWebWarrior
30-08-2005, 21:09
I find Black Holes strangely good topic.
If there is a black hole, how is it represented in space?
a hole is a 2D object, so if this was in space, you would see it from the front but not the side.
May be it should be called a Black Blob?
A black hole is theoretically a singularity that occupies no space, but since it is a point of huge gravitational energy, it distorts the space around it as it pulls ever more matter into itself.
So really, it has some 3-dimensional properties and isn't just a 'hole' in the 2-D sense.
Since the black hole has no 'back' side, from whatever point you observe it it will look the same.
Also, they're not entirely 'black'. As matter is drawn into a black hole, it is pulled apart, and at the event horizon (the point after which nothing escapes from the black hole) the 'destruction' of matter causes the ejection of x-rays etc. that then appear to come from the black hole itself.
Currently, black hole investigators try to ascertain the existence of a black hole either by this ejected radiation, or by gravitational side-effects of the black hole's presence.
Some stars with 'unusual' orbits are thought to be binary stars where the companion is possibly a black hole.
One of the best books I've ever come across on this subject is "The Collapsing Universe" by Isaac Asimov. Contrary to some expectations, it is not a work of SF, but a very careful look at all the science of black holes.
I find Black Holes strangely good topic.
Black Holes are where God divided by zero... :D
If there is a black hole, how is it represented in space?
a hole is a 2D object, so if this was in space, you would see it from the front but not the side.
May be it should be called a Black Blob?
Err, well a hole is actually an *absence* of something, not a *presence* of it (how much earth is there in a hole 2' x 2' x 2'...?! ;) ) but any answers to the question are entirely theoretical since nobody's actually been to one or conclusively demonstrated their existence.
ScaredWebWarrior
30-08-2005, 21:22
but any answers to the question are entirely theoretical since nobody's actually been to one or conclusively demonstrated their existence.
Depends on what you consider 'conclusive'... (not that I am suggesting any of the following are, but they are very persuasive.)
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2004/0720donutcloud.html
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/watchtheskies/double_burst.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18524812.000
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/blackhole_bulge_000605.html
Some science background stuff on black holes:
http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/blackholes/teacher/sciencebackground.html
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/introduction/black_holes.html
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html
Also, they're not entirely 'black'. As matter is drawn into a black hole, it is pulled apart, and at the event horizon (the point after which nothing escapes from the black hole) the 'destruction' of matter causes the ejection of x-rays etc. that then appear to come from the black hole itself.
Currently, black hole investigators try to ascertain the existence of a black hole either by this ejected radiationI'm confused (not hard :D )........if nothing -including light-can escape a black hole, how come it lets out x-rays? :confused:
homealone
30-08-2005, 22:12
if nothing -including light-can escape a black hole, how come it lets out x-rays? :confused:
I am becoming increasingly impressed with Wikipedia, lately, for the links alone
- how much do you actually want to know, Ramrod?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole
:)
ScaredWebWarrior
30-08-2005, 22:15
I'm confused (not hard :D )........if nothing -including light-can escape a black hole, how come it lets out x-rays? :confused:
If you imagine radiation being emitted from a source in all directions, then some of it will be emitted away from the black hole.
So it's not emitted from within the black hole, but from particles being torn apart at the event horizon.
Black Holes are where God divided by zero... :D
Err, well a hole is actually an *absence* of something, not a *presence* of it (how much earth is there in a hole 2' x 2' x 2'...?! ;) ) but any answers to the question are entirely theoretical since nobody's actually been to one or conclusively demonstrated their existence.
The best definition of a hole I have heard of is "nothing with something around it" :tu: :)
hands up all them people that have seen a black hole :dunce:
ScaredWebWarrior
30-08-2005, 22:25
hands up all them people that have seen a black hole :dunce:
Hmmm. Do you mean seeing the actual black hole (not likely, as not much visible light is actually emitted from the event horizon - ergo, you can't see it) or do you mean seeing the paraphernalia that accompanies the black hole - which is visible?
Did you mean with the naked eye, or does the use of a telescope count?
It would help to know to be sure whether putting one's hand up would be valid or not. :)
Addendum: Is it fair to assume that these people would also have 'seen' gravity, and can therefore vouch for it's existence? This is an important point, as the ability to see gravity might make the likelihood of seeing a black hole greater.
Hmmm. Do you mean seeing the actual black hole (not likely, as not much visible light is actually emitted from the event horizon - ergo, you can't see it) or do you mean seeing the paraphernalia that accompanies the black hole - which is visible?
Did you mean with the naked eye, or does the use of a telescope count?
It would help to know to be sure whether putting one's hand up would be valid or not. :)
surley if something is billions of miles away its all just speculation on what it is :confused:
ScaredWebWarrior
30-08-2005, 22:32
surley if something is billions of miles away its all just speculation on what it is :confused:
That makes Pluto nothing but speculation - yet we know it's there. We can barely claim to have 'seen' it either.
Similarly many distant galaxies - much of what is 'known' about those is based partially on observation, and partially on the current knowledge of chemistry and physics.
With black holes it's the same - the physics has provided us with a model of what it might be, and some observations appear to confirm that model. From this, we deduce that a) black holes exist and b) they are as the model suggests.
If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
homealone
30-08-2005, 22:52
surley if something is billions of miles away its all just speculation on what it is :confused:
you are correct - we are interpreting what we 'see' - we have got quite good at it, but we are limited by which 'eye' we use to see the universe, radio, xrays etc have vastly improved it, but it is still a 'snapshot' ..
__________________
If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
that is true, as well :)
Lets put it this way though it is said through the top people, that in the middle of each solar system lies a black hole?
So then it is only a matter of time before we go on the slimfast diet of a lifetime and are torn apart atom by atom?
A few billion years away likely, but in space terms about 1hour.
:D
You mean V'ger :)
Ah the first Borg :)
I always preferred Shatner's idea for ST 7 instead of first contact.
Star Trek Ressurection is a good read.
Anyway, black holes in the centre of our galaxy, we're due for a run in with the Andromeda galaxy long before we'll ever get sucked into the big boys at the centre of our galaxy (although the collision may cause is to get too close though)
So then it is only a matter of time before we go on the slimfast diet of a lifetime and are torn apart atom by atom?
I don't think so - the stars in our galaxy orbit their black hole, just as the planets in our solar system orbit the sun. Where there is a stable orbit, there's no need for anyone to get torn apart atom by atom.
but any answers to the question are entirely theoretical since nobody's actually been to one or conclusively demonstrated their existence.
Depends on what you consider 'conclusive'... (not that I am suggesting any of the following are, but they are very persuasive.)
Yep, persuasive (and very nice pics too :) )
__________________
Lets put it this way though it is said through the top people, that in the middle of each solar system lies a black hole?
Erm, I think you mean "galaxy", not "solar system"...!! :eek:
i have to agree with that its a big bright thing at the centre of our solar system :Sun:
Who says the universe has to be big. How do any of us know we are not the only consciousness that exists and all other input like sight, sound, and touch are just figments of our imagination? Every thing we imagine to be real could be just thoughts. After all, all input is translated in to thought in our heads. So who says it has to be real?
hands up all them people that have seen a black hole :dunce:
Just remember that this is a family forum...!!! :D
__________________
Who says the universe has to be big. How do any of us know we are not the only consciousness that exists and all other input like sight, sound, and touch are just figments of our imagination? Every thing we imagine to be real could be just thoughts. After all, all input is translated in to thought in our heads. So who says it has to be real?
We've done the Matrix bit already...! :D
Or, on a lighter note: -
In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies)
What about if in fact we were all just robots being played with by bigger creations higher above.
We've done the Matrix bit already...! :D
In the Matrix though, people still had a physical form, only their thoughts were controlled.
I'm saying there is only one consciousness, and no physical form at all, only thought. This will at least fall in line with the theory that the universe was created from nothing.
It may have been covered elsewhere in this thread, but I just wanted to express my opinion on the subject ;)
We've done the Matrix bit already...! :D
In the Matrix though, people still had a physical form, only their thoughts were controlled.
I'm saying there is only one consciousness, and no physical form at all, only thought. This will at least fall in line with the theory that the universe was created from nothing.
Cogito ergo sum (I think, therefore I am) - Descartes.
Yes, it's of course possible that you're nothing more than a brain in a bottle being fed stimuli. It's also true that everything you remember up until now has been created as a fiction and all your memories are fakes, but since there's no way to prove the truth of falsity of either, there's little we can do except assume that it's all real.
but since there's no way to prove the truth of falsity of either, there's little we can do except assume that it's all real.
;)
patrickp
01-09-2005, 01:39
Who says the universe has to be big. How do any of us know we are not the only consciousness that exists and all other input like sight, sound, and touch are just figments of our imagination? Every thing we imagine to be real could be just thoughts. After all, all input is translated in to thought in our heads. So who says it has to be real?
Does that mean you don't actually exist, then, mrm1? :D
but since there's no way to prove the truth of falsity of either, there's little we can do except assume that it's all real.
;)
Don't push your luck, sonny...!
Does that mean you don't actually exist, then, mrm1? :D
Yep, We are all just a figment of your imagination, (either that or you are all a figment of my imagination, in which case, why am I telling you this :confused: )
Yep, We are all just a figment of your imagination, (either that or you are all a figment of my imagination, in which case, why am I telling you this :confused: )
Deep breaths! Oh no, wait, you don't have lungs! oops
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.