View Full Version : Plusnet Implemets 'Idle Timeouts' On Broadband ADSL Products
Ignition
25-08-2005, 11:16
Well, the legend continues.
Following the decision to kick two users off for complaining on their forums too much, which I can actually see the point to an extent, though I don't know all the facts, they are now pretty much confessing that they are lacking in capacity to handle all their customers being online at once.
A few friends of mine who use their service have been complaining to me about having issues connecting, which were symptomatic of PN lacking in 'sessions' with BT, namely amount of concurrent users that can be placed through each unit of capacity.
Another friend also mentioned to me a month ago that PN were apparently very short of sessions, and were regularly disconnecting various users overnight to try and balance their session capacity.
Plusnet have now implemented 30 minute idle timeout on two of their broadband ADSL products. If your connection is idle for 30 minutes you'll be disconnected.
This does kind of go against the idea of an always on connection, and is without a doubt a step backwards.
http://www.adslguide.org.uk/newsarchive.asp?item=2349
The news story from ADSLGuide.
MovedGoalPosts
25-08-2005, 12:11
That is bad. Readiing the FAQ. If you have a router, chances are you need to reboot it, because Plusnet cut you off. Pants. Takes us back to the bad old days of dial up.
And there was me thinking technology was supposed to be getting more efficient, more accessible, and easier to use.
It sounds like Plusnet are minimising costs a little more than they are prepared to admit.
Makes you wonder what they will do next, not exactly generating much positive publicity for themselves are they :erm:
etccarmageddon
25-08-2005, 13:49
obviously they are in financial difficulties and are cost cutting accordingly.
Chrysalis
25-08-2005, 18:26
How can a company who made 6 figure profit be in financial diffilculties?
They may take NTL's spot as worst isp soon :D
How can a company who made 6 figure profit be in financial diffilculties?
They may take NTL's spot as worst isp soon :D
Nah, NTL won't lose their crown without a fight lol
slowcoach
26-08-2005, 00:01
Plusnet have now implemented 30 minute idle timeout on two of their broadband ADSL products. If your connection is idle for 30 minutes you'll be disconnected.
ISP's used to do this in the bad old days, we had to run some utility which kept the line active.
etccarmageddon
26-08-2005, 12:28
How can a company who made 6 figure profit be in financial diffilculties?
They may take NTL's spot as worst isp soon :Dbizarre! I stand corrected and thank you for pointing it out. so here's my new opinion...
they are behaving like they dont have enough money to run their network and acting like a company would if it had financial problems.
Florence
26-08-2005, 14:05
Some of thesae have been answered in ISPr by a Plusnet member of staff.
This might help answer some questions (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showpost.php?p=146315&postcount=25)
I doubt they are having money problems just trying to make more efficient use of the network. MPO I mean every 24hours my modem reboots surely this is a similar thing.
Some of thesae have been answered in ISPr by a Plusnet member of staff.
This might help answer some questions (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/showpost.php?p=146315&postcount=25)
I doubt they are having money problems just trying to make more efficient use of the network. MPO I mean every 24hours my modem reboots surely this is a similar thing.
No, because your ISP can NOT reboot your modem or router.
Following the decision to kick two users off for complaining on their forums too much, which I can actually see the point to an extent, though I don't know all the facts, they are now pretty much confessing that they are lacking in capacity to handle all their customers being online at once.
Hi there,
We are not short of capacity across our network and that is not the primary reason for the proposal to introduce idle timeouts.
A few friends of mine who use their service have been complaining to me about having issues connecting, which were symptomatic of PN lacking in 'sessions' with BT, namely amount of concurrent users that can be placed through each unit of capacity.
As mentioned, we haven't any problems with capacity that would prevent a user connecting. Can I ask what symptoms would point to this being the case!?
Another friend also mentioned to me a month ago that PN were apparently very short of sessions, and were regularly disconnecting various users overnight to try and balance their session capacity.
The reason for the periods of load balancing that involved disconnecting users was nothing to do with session limits. We had an imbalance of 155Mbps and 622Mbps BT cenral pipes across our network. This inbalance saw some pipes getting full whilst others remained close to empty. This called for us to load balance the network that caused users to be disconnected. We have since decomissioned the 155Mbps pipes and replaced them with 622's that has resolved this problem outright.
Plusnet have now implemented 30 minute idle timeout on two of their broadband ADSL products. If your connection is idle for 30 minutes you'll be disconnected.
We have not implemented this. Just added a clause to the T's & C's that says we may.
This does kind of go against the idea of an always on connection, and is without a doubt a step backwards.
The ideas is to create a balance of users on each segment of central capacity so bandwidth is being used efficiently. Imagine a situation where an entire segment is full of idle users. No one else can connect to that pipe even though no bandwidth is passing through it! In addition to this a pipe full of 50:1 512K customers is not as efficient as a pipe full of 30:1 2MB users, because the bandwidth per session is lower. It is about striking a balance between the differing packages and speeds. As speeds generally increase, the eed for idle timeouts will decrease.
Kind Regards,
etccarmageddon
26-08-2005, 14:33
...MPO I mean every 24hours my modem reboots surely this is a similar thing.are you on ADSL? could it be your line is poor and it's reconnecting? my NTL line never reboots and is always on.
__________________
Hi there,
We are not short of capacity across our network and that is not the primary reason for the proposal to introduce idle timeouts...I thought ignition showed us a graph which clearly indicated your network was running at close to 95% at peak times or something like that.
I know if I had to reboot my modem after every 30 minute period of inactivity I'd be a bit peeved, I'd find a decent ADSL provider instead of using shower of cowboys like plus.net, not once but TWICE they've managed to completely ar$e up a migration of mine. The latest incidents only reinforce how bad they truly are and bpullen is a brave (wo)man to be posting on here.
Chrysalis
26-08-2005, 16:02
HAHA man, I seen the graph you cant deny the network is overflowing.
Hi there,
We are not short of capacity across our network and that is not the primary reason for the proposal to introduce idle timeouts.
What is then? You seem intent on telling us just how wrong other people have been in their statements about a certain ISP so how about posting some facts to back up your statements?
What is then? You seem intent on telling us just how wrong other people have been in their statements about a certain ISP so how about posting some facts to back up your statements?
Hi there,
I did in my post?!? Id be interested to know if the utilisation graph was from before of after we recently lit another segment??
Regards,
Interesting how the graphs on plus.net have changed to show different things since all the commotion was thrown up...:scratch:
Interesting how the graphs on plus.net have changed to show different things since all the commotion was thrown up...:scratch:
Hi there,
That was suggested by our customers so we adopted the idea. We've been saying for some time that they were due an overhaul. It isn't a knee-jerk reaction although you're free to make your own conclusions of course.
Kind Regards,
Chrysalis
26-08-2005, 19:30
Plusnet I feel need to make a firm decision which way they are going to go. Either hard caps or no caps, not all this stuff in between. They also need to be honest with the public more, if they choose not to add upgrades and have an increased contention service then show that on your web page. The 30 min idle thing is a bit of a joke, that is something you would see in the dialup days to stop people hogging modem ports and is supposed to be a mute issue with broadband, is this caused by having fewer ip addresses then customers?
Hi bpullen,
I am a new Plusnet customer, and joined on the recommendation of a friend.
I too have been dismayed by the e-mail I recieved at the weekend.
I am however rather confused by the statement you raised in an earlier post:
"Quote:
Plusnet have now implemented 30 minute idle timeout on two of their broadband ADSL products. If your connection is idle for 30 minutes you'll be disconnected.
We have not implemented this. Just added a clause to the T's & C's that says we may."
In the e-mail I received it states:
"- Introduction of 'idle time-outs' for Broadband Plus and ADSL Home Surf
customers only. This means that we will disconnect any sessions that are
inactive for a period of thirty minutes. As long as your connection is in active
use, you will not be disconnected. If you are disconnected you will be able to
reconnect straight away. Please note that idle-timeouts will not be implemented
on Premier, Pay As You go or Business accounts."
So which is the correct answer?
I purchased a wireless router, and my biggest headache, if I cannot automatically get it to re-connect, is that I will not have the 'always on/anywhere in the house' functionality I joined you guys for, and bought the hardware for.
The thing is, if I can get it to automatically re-connect, it doesn't actually achieve anything on your end from what i can see, or am I missing something?
Dan
So which is the correct answer?
The idle timeouts are not enforced at the moment. If I am completely honest I suspect they will be introduced at some point on the BB+ and HomeSurf accounts. Remember idle timeouts would be introduced explore whether network capacity could be better managed. Now if the positive effect on the network is minimal then there would be little need for us to continue utilising timeouts and they would subsequently be withdrawn.
I purchased a wireless router, and my biggest headache, if I cannot automatically get it to re-connect, is that I will not have the 'always on/anywhere in the house' functionality I joined you guys for, and bought the hardware for.
I would suggest speaking to the manufacturer to ascertain what will happen. Your router will either reconnect automatically, on demand (ie next time an Internet application is opened) or in the worse case scenario require a reboot. Certain configuration options will influence which of these will occur.
The thing is, if I can get it to automatically re-connect, it doesn't actually achieve anything on your end from what i can see, or am I missing something?
Dan, as I mentioned before, if it doesn't achieve anything then it will be withdrawn.
Kind Regards,
Ignition
04-09-2005, 12:23
Plusnet I feel need to make a firm decision which way they are going to go. Either hard caps or no caps, not all this stuff in between. They also need to be honest with the public more, if they choose not to add upgrades and have an increased contention service then show that on your web page. The 30 min idle thing is a bit of a joke, that is something you would see in the dialup days to stop people hogging modem ports and is supposed to be a mute issue with broadband, is this caused by having fewer ip addresses then customers?
Nah not fewer IP addresses, they were gambling on BT increasing the number of concurrent sessions per 622Mbit STM-4. BT have not done this and PN do not have enough sessions to have their entire customer base online (this from an official statement from PN informing that there were enough sessions as all userbase isn't online at the same time, implication if all userbase were online not enough sessions available).
That is bad considering that PN have 155Mbit of an STM-4 still not utilised, however when they light up that extra bandwidth it won't come with any extra sessions.
As far as the increased contention service PN are far happier spinning that their 30:1 is better than the norm, despite the fact that BT Wholesale guideline contention on the 50:1 service as calculated by Ofcom for the Margin Squeeze Tests is 25:1.
Graphs look much better now though, the new graph layout manages to nicely avoid the big flat sections that were there previously where capacity available maxed out and traffic shaping was required.
Personally I don't see the problem in just saying that the service is a bargain basement service and is subject to both traffic shaping and to user management if overused. However PN appear to have employed the Iraqi Information Minister, and he has various 'customer support' people spreading his word across ADSLGuide, ISPReview and now here.
Whatever you say Mr Pullen idle timeouts are both to manage your lack of sessions and free up capacity on your traffic shaping kit. Can't be that painful just admitting to it, can it?
Feel free to talk to me in confidence to soothe your soul from having to constantly toe the company line, I know it would really get on my nerves being customer support and unpaid PR in one go.
Chrysalis
04-09-2005, 18:39
hmm the fact the sessions are used up but other isp's arent hitting this problem would this indicate they are cramming more users then what is considered normal on a STM-4?
Thanks for your reply and clarification Bob,
Much appreciated.
Dan
Ignition
08-09-2005, 11:24
hmm the fact the sessions are used up but other isp's arent hitting this problem would this indicate they are cramming more users then what is considered normal on a STM-4?
*nods
Why do you think they're traffic shaping, etc ;)
Pay peanuts...
Chrysalis
08-09-2005, 18:30
looking at new plusnet graphs, the seperated ones I can see no flatlines on the cheaper products which makes me think they are traffic shaped so heavily they cant hit the ceiling and I see a flatline on plusnet premier which shows its still hitting a limit.
Ignition
08-09-2005, 21:43
looking at new plusnet graphs, the seperated ones I can see no flatlines on the cheaper products which makes me think they are traffic shaped so heavily they cant hit the ceiling and I see a flatline on plusnet premier which shows its still hitting a limit.
Ooops!
Traffic shaping will only show when hitting a 'ceiling' of some sort, flat horizontal lines, like the ones seen on the combined graph before they replaced it with the new ones.
*Passes Chrysalis a Plusnet Sandvine / Ellacoya + a manual.
__________________
Hi there,
I did in my post?!? Id be interested to know if the utilisation graph was from before of after we recently lit another segment??
Regards,
Util graph from before you lit another segment, didn't max as your traffic shaping kit prevents each STM-1 from maxing.
Fact that as soon as that extra segment was lit the graph before being changed went well over your previous capacity says how much was being throttled. Although that isn't an issue.
If you were to just say 'yep we're traffic shaping, etc, etc, what do you expect for the price' that'd be cool rather than the constant disinformation and spin mission, which sucks.
ISP = Internet Service Provider, not Increased Spin Please :(
Chrysalis
09-09-2005, 04:31
Ooops!
Traffic shaping will only show when hitting a 'ceiling' of some sort, flat horizontal lines, like the ones seen on the combined graph before they replaced it with the new ones.
*Passes Chrysalis a Plusnet Sandvine / Ellacoya + a manual.
Ok hold on, lets say you have a traffic shaping policy in place, it kicks in no matter whats going on. So 1000 users are downloading something of microsoft.com at 120kB on their 2mbit connections and without the shaping it would normally be 1000x240kB, it wont flat line it will just be lower peak, as a reult of traffic shaping. So isp's traffic shaping can give the impression they not hitting capacity because the shaping is what is saving them hit capacity.
Flat horizontal lines are normally an indication of total capacity been reached. But can also be a result of a shaping policy that limits total traffic.
Ignition
16-09-2005, 10:34
Hi there,
We are not short of capacity across our network and that is not the primary reason for the proposal to introduce idle timeouts.
Hi there,
I did in my post?!? Id be interested to know if the utilisation graph was from before of after we recently lit another segment??
Not short of capacity?
http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=plusnet&Number=2036049&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=0&fpart=
Subject Sustainable Usage Policy [link to this post]
Reply to this post
Posted by Standard User stewartnorriss (isp)
Posted on Thu 15-Sep-05 16:28:09
We have just published a calrification and outline of our sustainable usage policy found here : www.plus.net/support/features/sustainable_usage_guide.shtml
We've taken on board customer comments from August's exercise and have included more detail on the policy and have added more phases. We've changed measurement from calendar month to billing month based on customer feedback.
The reason for taking action is that in the last 3 months Premier customer numbers have increased by just 4% but in the same period their P2P usage has increased 100%. This is now causing us real problems at peak times and is impacting the experience of all our other customers so we're taking action for the benefit of all our broadband customers.
The policy affects less than 0.5% of our customers and as more than 90% of customers use less than 10GB per month they will not be affected by this.
All the details are on the page linked above.
Stewart Norriss
PlusNet Plusnet Comms Team Leader
Oops. Go spread the good word somewhere else maybe Mr Pullen, or at least keep your message consistent. Your network is bursting at the seams as admitted above, hence the continuing policies of idle timeouts and 'fair use'.
No other DSL ISP has found it necessary to disconnect idle users, your network is crammed both in terms of bandwidth and session utilisation. I suspect that your Ellacoyas are part of the cause, reserving 67kbps per user probably requires some work to avoid reserving yourselves out of bandwidth too, especially with the over population of pipes that you have necessarily self-induced through your aggressive price cuts.
Chrysalis
16-09-2005, 10:58
I been following plusnet's plight and they really have dug themselves a deep hole. No firm policy in place and with it changing weekly they are losing loyal customers and getting continous bad publicity but it seems they are moving from a niche isp to a budget isp.
Yeah for sure, the constant policy changing shows the company is in dire straits and not quite sure to do from one moment to the next.
Their 'sustainable usage' guide is laughable to say the least, it blatantly shows what their situation is, you don't need to even have a brain to figure it out. To an extent its sad they have to call on their customers to safeguard its only own network; 'Peak-time management', 'Restricted Traffic' - what a load of ********, I hope people become aware and understand it, this is no model for a BB service in this day.
zoombini
16-09-2005, 19:03
Mind you, as a premier customer I have not had any problems witht he amount of data I can download.
Chrysalis
17-09-2005, 04:07
Latest.
They are capping users with no warning to 67kbit/s (not kbyte) this is either just a peak time gap or 24/7 and it lasts for 30 days unless you contact them or upgrade. One user who upgraded and pays a new price of £39,99 got the 67kbit lifted but is still suffering from heavy shaping all day caps on anything but http, plusnet are even categorising SSH as heavy traffic and cap.
All this and customers still cant check their usage during the month.
http://www.plus.net/support/features/sustainable_usage_guide.shtml?pn_session=873030ff8 cf4935d687bfce141e163f7
Peak time broadband..ahahah..haha..ha..ehrm :erm:
Ignition
30-09-2005, 10:10
Latest.
They are capping users with no warning to 67kbit/s (not kbyte) this is either just a peak time gap or 24/7 and it lasts for 30 days unless you contact them or upgrade. One user who upgraded and pays a new price of £39,99 got the 67kbit lifted but is still suffering from heavy shaping all day caps on anything but http, plusnet are even categorising SSH as heavy traffic and cap.
All this and customers still cant check their usage during the month.
In their defense SSH is used to leech these days, and the 67kbps is minimum, they munge you onto a strictly 30:1 pipe.
If you need more than 67kbps on SSH you must be having some entertainment.
Chrysalis
30-09-2005, 15:17
Well I use SSH a lot and I dont use it to leech, 67kbit/sec will give you many lag bursts. Simply because even if just used for command line there will be needs for bursts of bandwidth and when it isnt there it freezes momentarily as it wants to catch up.
When you say SSH is used to leech you mean people encrypt their traffic which isnt SSH its just encryption to hide from isp's trying to find what type of traffic it is.
Also the 67kbit is maximum people put on it get max 8kB/sec from everything including http, plusnet are doing wild tactics like putting everyone who requests a mac onto 24/7 management so they dont rape the line during their last month.
Ignition
30-09-2005, 16:33
If true that's pretty sick :(
Unless of course the people are leaving because they are about to be managed and they know it ;)
Chrysalis
30-09-2005, 22:01
well actually yes I will retract where they put everyone on it who requests a mac, more accurate is people who got put on the management either the peak time only or 24/7 and then get told they been taken of it, they also ask for a mac to move isp then they get put on 24/7 management after. So I dont know if a low usage customer asks for a mac if they get put on the 24/7 management.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.