VM treat 0845 same as 0870

[Chrysalis]

I know VM are uncompetitive on landlines but am I reading this right?

over 10p a min for 0845 24/7 same price as 0870 calls?

[m419]

Actually 0870 numbers are now part of your inclusive calls.

However, there is Talk 08 £2 which gives you 250 minutes to call 0845 numbers or alternatively Talk Anywhere also includes 0845,0870,international numbers inlcuding international mobiles and UK mobiles.

There is also Talk 08 £5 offers inclusive calls to all 08 numbers including 0871 apparently.

But unfortunetly at this time Virgin Media's standard charge for 0845 numbers without any special discount or add ons is about 10p per minute.

[Chrysalis]

are you saying 0870 are inclusive but 0845 are not? if so thats a bizarre policy.

the pdf lists both as 10.22p a minute with a 11.24pp connection charge as well unless on the expensive unlimited call plan. (day time calls) although evening calls arent discounted when charged either. I do see 0870 as you say are inclusive if on a call plan.

whilst BT charge signficantly less for 0845.

so VM charge the same for 0870 and 0845 but actually end up overall charging more for 0845 due to it never been inclusive, I guess due to the huge number of companies using 0845 now VM never include due to call volumes.

[nodrogd]

Outside the call plans the cost of an 0845 call is less than a penny more expensive than a standard call on VM now, and the connection charge is less. If you make a lot of calls to these numbers the Talk 08 £2 is certainly a good add-on to have.

[Chrysalis]

08 only covers 240 mins tho. and yes normal calls are a ripoff on VM also although evenings its double the price of local not 1p more.

[nodrogd]

08 only covers 240 mins tho. and yes normal calls are a ripoff on VM also although evenings its double the price of local not 1p more.

Only for Talk Off Peak customers. Anyone on Talk weekends is charged at 9.94ppm for normal calls, be it daytime or evening as per the April price list.

[m419]

are you saying 0870 are inclusive but 0845 are not? if so thats a bizarre policy.

the pdf lists both as 10.22p a minute with a 11.24pp connection charge as well unless on the expensive unlimited call plan. (day time calls) although evening calls arent discounted when charged either. I do see 0870 as you say are inclusive if on a call plan.

whilst BT charge signficantly less for 0845.

so VM charge the same for 0870 and 0845 but actually end up overall charging more for 0845 due to it never been inclusive, I guess due to the huge number of companies using 0845 now VM never include due to call volumes.

Sky Talk does the same.

The thing is, the cost of using a landline is just so expensive nowadays. Same with public payphones, the cost has been increased so high that people are put off from using them.

The thing about 0870 numbers is that most businesses are now migrating to 0844 or 0871 numbers so they can still get revenue share.

This is happening to 0845 numbers since they stopped revenue share.

[Chrysalis]

I actually very rarely see 0870, 0871 and 0844 its just about always 0845. Even my local GP is 0845 and have joined in on the act.

Ofcom gave me a joke of a reply back claiming noone is advertising 0845 as local rate anymore, I am about to setup a script to grep for ads containing 0845 and "local rate" and will send them a list of a few hundred to wake them up.

This whole farce has got me considering cancelling the landline, I save some of the line rental (not all as bb will go up) and the cost of ringing 0845 on my mobile is only an extra 2p a min over VM.

I just checked sky talk and their 0870 is cheaper than 0845 but at least their 0845 is not far off been half the price of VM. A significant difference.

Its a farce across the board hence the complaint to ofcom, given 0870 is supposedbly national rate and 0845 local rate then 0845 should be in theory cheaper if anything, but suppliers are now charging based on demand and demand for 0845 is obviously higher.

To me local rate should mean any price should match what it costs to ring a local geographical number meaning if the supplier has those local numbers free (inclusive) then 0845 should be also.

Also 03xx numbers apparently have the same advantage of 08xx in that can be kept if they change regions but is a lot cheaper to use than 08xx. So its 03xx that are true local rate not 08xx. 0845 is the new 0870 without the bad stigma.

[nodrogd]

Interesting quote from Wikipedia:

"0845 numbers replaced the previous range of 0345 numbers operated by BT and 0645 numbers provided by Cable and Wireless. The older 0345 and 0645 numbers were converted to 0845 numbers as part of the Big Number Change. Until 2004, 0845 numbers were charged at the same rate as a call within the caller's local call area, and were accordingly described as local rate numbers, or using the BT brand name "Lo-call". With few companies now charging domestic customers different rates for local and long-distance calls, 0845 numbers can no longer reliably be assumed to cost the same as a 'local' phone call and can in some cases cost more."

[Mr K]

I refuse to use such numbers. I've always found alternatives to 0845/0870 at :- http://www.saynoto0870.com/

Companies always have a landline alternative, just a matter of finding it. Often they also have a 0800 freephone number. No need to pay these companies for the privilege of listening to never ending Vivaldi, or pay VM for one of their poxy call plans.

[Chrysalis]

interesting timing.

http://media.ofcom.org.uk/2012/04/04/simplified-call-charges-to-help-consumers/?utm_source=updates&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=non-geo-no-condocNR

some good news at least with 0800 been free from mobiles, that gets rid of a BIG reason to have landlines.

[hansi]

I refuse to use such numbers. I've always found alternatives to 0845/0870 at :- http://www.saynoto0870.com/

Companies always have a landline alternative, just a matter of finding it. Often they also have a 0800 freephone number. No need to pay these companies for the privilege of listening to never ending Vivaldi, or pay VM for one of their poxy call plans.

Same here:) I also refuse to use these numbers.

[Chrysalis]

I will be using that site from now on, just in the past I didnt feel the need to for 0845 as was much cheaper when I was on BT.

[Chrysalis]

in regards to saynoto0870 it seems VM are up to no good.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=45867521

reports of people dialing alternative numbers and VM auto redirecting to 0845.

[m419]

in regards to saynoto0870 it seems VM are up to no good.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=45867521

reports of people dialing alternative numbers and VM auto redirecting to 0845.
That is an actual issue with Cable and Wireless Worldwide rather than Virgin Media, the same problem has been known to effect Sky Talk customers as well. Cable and Wireless are not entirely stupid when it comes taking money off people, the days of Bulldog broadband should be a reminder of that, when people paid in advance for a service which was never provisioned properly or at all. Although revenue sharing has ended on 0845 and 0870 numbers, phone companies are still able to gain a higher termination fee from them than normal geographic numbers or 03 numbers which is why Virgin Media still uses 0845 numbers for its own customer service lines. Everything Everywhere does the same with its numbers, 07973 for Orange and 084541 for T-Mobile. 3 used 0870 numbers and had to replace its 0870 numbers with 0843 to get revenue share. It is actually up to the phone companies who own such numbers to charge this, if you call a number that is non-geographic and use the geographical number instead, they have the right to charge you the non-geographic rate as the service you are calling has been advertised with that number and cost.

[Chrysalis]

who has the right? the phone company cannot charge you for a number you didnt dial.

[bonzoe]

If they are doing that, isn't that fraud?

[m419]

They could say the same about you, you are meant to be dialling the non-geographic numbers advertised. It is a premium service, if you decided it would be cheaper to get a chipped Virgin Media set top box to get cheaper or free Cable TV, then that is the same thing, your not paying for a service. Or it is like an adult travelling on a train with a Child ticket or someone travelling in first class with a 2nd class ticket. The logic behind 08 and 09 numbers today is that you call these lines to obtain a service and that extra fee is to pay for that service. Cable and Wireless Worldwide is the owner of the telephone numbers mentioned on the moneysaving expert forum, when you call a number terminating on a different phone company, then that phone company bills Virgin Media a termination fee of which then passes onto the customer and Cable and Wireless Worldwide recognised that the number they called was the Tesco customer service line. The geographical numbers are there for international callers as most countries are unable to connect to 08 numbers in the UK. So if you suddenly see 08 numbers appear on your bill, don't be surprised

[Chrysalis]

Thats irrelevant in terms of VM billing for a different number.

There is also nothing illegal about dialing alternative numbers, its not comparable to using a chipped cable box.

I got a funny reply of ofcom today tho, they playing dumb.

"3. With regards to how much Virgin Media charges for calls to 0845, unfortunately we have no regulatory control over this. In view of competition, a number of years ago, it was decided that it would be a commercial decision for each provider as to what they charge for their services."

Well doh, thats because you chose not to regulate them.

m419 the fee is extreme and disproportionate, I note tho ofcom didnt reject one of my ideas.

The idea they didnt reject was that call queues longer than 2 minutes on 0845 are reverse charged, forced to refund cost of call or call back offered. Effectively outlawing using call queues to generate revenue.

[m419]

It's funny you mention that, Ofcom a few years ago cracked down on companies using 0870 numbers as well as phone companies keeping people on hold on purpose to gain revenue share, this eventually led to the withdrawal of revenue share on 0845 and 0870 numbers. It then led to many companies migrating to 0843,0844,0871,0872 and in some cases 0901 numbers to continue getting revenue share. What Ofcom are saying is actually correct it is based on competition and they can't actually do anything about phone companies other than BT,Kingston Communications,Sure Cable and Wireless(Guernsey not Jersey or Isle of Man),Jersey Telecom and Manx Telecom. And it certainly has become something of competition, BT relaxed the charges to 0845 and 0870 numbers and then TalkTalk followed. Virgin Media then allowed 0870 numbers as part of inclusive calls allowances and then Sky followed Virgin Media. I didn't say it was illegal for you to use geographical numbers instead of the designated non-geographical numbers, the phone companies can charge you the 0845/0870 rate of which applies to your calling plan if the terminating phone company bills them in that way. There have been some 0207 1 numbers that have been charged 0871 rate, however it was advertised that it would be 10p per minute. I do agree with your idea that companies should call you back instead of keeping you on hold, that is something that Vodafone and Npower have started doing, it is not allowed to keep people on hold with numbers like 0906,0907,0908 and 0909 and if lines are busy, they must either ring out until a line becomes available and must not be connected until then or have some sort of call me back facility. The same should apply to 070,0843,0844,0871 and 0872 numbers. 0845 and 0870 numbers are down to you, you choose the phone company that charges you the least amount of money or you ask retentions to do something about it.

[Chrysalis]

I have to say I rarely see 0870 and 0843,0844,0871,0872 in use.

0845 is easily the majority use.

I am curious of any documentation that has stated 0845 revenue sharing has stopped because I have seen documentation from government departments stating they use 0845 to generate revenue to cover costs as them justifying its use. If they get no revenue of it then why use it over 0345 or geographical numbers?

m419 you are wrong on the termination charges as well, even ofcom confirmed it to me, and the cases on moneysavingsexpert VM eventually backed down. A telco provider can only charge for the number dialed in accordance to their contract with the user, their calling plan. Even if it means they make a loss on the call. So if down the line its redirected to 0845 thats the telco's problem not the customer.

To be clear in the cases of tesco the geographical numbers were not advertised as 0845 rate.

Ofcom didnt say they agreed with me on the callbacks but I do find it interesting they chose not to argue that point with me. Instead saying regarding anything else on my email they didnt specifically comment on is part of their current investigation.

[m419]

HMRC have replaced there 08453 numbers with new 03 numbers. DWP 0800 numbers are now free to call from mobiles and i've been told they are going to do the same as HMRC eventually with there 0845 numbers which they currently use for Jobcentre plus services including Social fund enquiries. Sky,O2,Citizens Advice,Transport for London,littlewoods,Arriva,Barclaycard are just some of the companies using 0843/0844 numbers for the main point of contact. Virgin Holidays,National Express,Diamond insurance,payday UK,JD Williams catalogue and home shopping are some that use 0871 numbers. I will tell you something, T-Mobile are getting cheeky with the pay as you go prices for calling 0800 numbers, they are meant to be free, you'd expect them to be cheaper than calling another mobile network at least but they like to charge up to a whopping 40p per minute for a not so free freephone number.

[Gadgie]

When we were with Sky for all 3 services, we used to get charged for 0845 numbers that we never even called?

It started off with small amounts like 45p, but later they were charging us £3.50 extra on our bill?

The annoying thing is, we use that" say no 0845 numbers" web site, so we never dialed any 0845 ones, but they insisted we did:(

(so we are hoping this will stop now that are back with V/M);)

[Chrysalis]

the EU ruled last year support type services have to be charged at a basic rate, apparently the UK signed up to it so this may well be the precursor to what ofcom is doing now.