Primary Upstream Max Traffic Rate?

[TROTER]

My upload speed on 50Mb was recently upgraded in Gateshead to 5Mb about three weeks ago. I tested the upload and got around 4.3Mb on speedtest.net, the Primary Upstream Max Traffic Rate was set at over 5000000 bps.
Today I downgraded my internet to 30Mb expecting a upload speed of 3Mb, I am getting just over half of that speed. (1.85Mb)

Primary Upstream Service Flow
Upstream(0)
SFID 5399
Max Traffic Rate 2058000 bps
Max Traffic Burst 8160 bytes
Mix Traffic Rate 0 bps
Max Concatenated Burst 8160 bytes
Scheduling Type Best Effort

Should my max traffic rate not be set at just over 3000000 bps?

Tech support told me that the upload upgrade for the 30Mb service had not taken effect in my area even though it had for the 50Mb service. Why they could give me 4.3Mb upload two hours ago but now can not supply 3Mb or close is confusing me.

Can any one confirm what Tech Support told me?

[qasdfdsaq]

It should be, yes. Other people have seen this too as well as 60mb down 3mb up. VM are either being sneaky, or cocked something up big time.

[Andrewcrawford23]

It should be, yes. Other people have seen this too as well as 60mb down 3mb up. VM are either being sneaky, or cocked something up big time.

no.... the annoucement acutalyl states the upload might nto increase at the same time as the download it mgith bea few months down the line

edit but 309mb is current package so the 3mb uplaod should be ther ei am tlaking abotu 60mb upgrade

edit
http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Announcements/We-re-doubling-our-customers-broadband-speeds/td-p/958421
Will the 120Mb package have 12 Mbps upstream? Or more?

Yes, the long term plan is all speeds will have a 10:1 ratio but the upload speed increase might follow a bit after the download.

[qasdfdsaq]

Oh. That wasn't mentioned in the original mass information out-pour.

[Chrysalis]

I also have the same upstream rate, bear in mind I was already with a 3meg upload but got the new config after been given a discount.

When I was given the config the upload wasnt mentioned it was just said to me I keep 30meg download for the same price.

[TROTER]

I find that interesting as I was also given a discount.

[gouldy]

your not on the 30mb package, your on the 20mb, that's why you've got the 2mb upload, they've just upped your download to 30mb


virgin are taking the pi55 imo with this, phone them up, retentions, and say your not happy about being hoodwinked into a lower upload and you want to go back on to the proper 30mb package

ive just had to do the same with 100mb, was getting 5mb upload, phoned retentions demanded to be put on what i was told i would be (100mb with 10mb upload) and he done it straight away

[General Maximus]

"Will the 120Mb package have 12 Mbps upstream? Or more?

Yes, the long term plan is all speeds will have a 10:1 ratio but the upload speed increase might follow a bit after the download"

It's a joke, they'll try and put it off for as long as possible. Putting on a extra 2mbit straight away isnt going to kill anyone.

[qasdfdsaq]

They've already killed the network.

Great decision. Before they've even finished the last round of upstream upgrades, they've started another two rounds of "new product" rollout that will require three more rounds of network upgrades. WTFail.

[General Maximus]

I never thought I would say but the chances are that I will move over to Infinity once my contract is up in November. I am sure BT will do some more upgrades by then to move them inline with VM

[qasdfdsaq]

BT will be upgrading to 80mb in the next month (last I heard Openreach are aiming to release 80/20 in early April). They don't need to do anything to move them inline with VM, on everything but download speed they're already ahead of VM. On download speed the next update is already coming in a few weeks, which will take them well ahead of VM in my area, and close to VM's claimed top tariff of 100mbps. Backhaul capacity (from the cab) is already way higher than VM in terms of per cab and per user in both directions.

Upstream is basically uncontended right now on BT Infinity. The absolute maximum contention ratio it'll ever reach with the current product is 5:1, and that's on a fully loaded 288 line cab.

[craigj2k12]

BT will be upgrading to 80mb in the next month (last I heard Openreach are aiming to release 80/20 in early April). They don't need to do anything to move them inline with VM, on everything but download speed they're already ahead of VM. On download speed the next update is already coming in a few weeks, which will take them well ahead of VM in my area, and close to VM's claimed top tariff of 100mbps. Backhaul capacity (from the cab) is already way higher than VM in terms of per cab and per user in both directions.

Upstream is basically uncontended right now on BT Infinity. The absolute maximum contention ratio it'll ever reach with the current product is 5:1, and that's on a fully loaded 288 line cab.

So will everyone be getting a free upgrade to 80/20 or will that be a separate product?

and 5:1 contention is really good, like really really good, the company I worked for a couple of years ago were paying over the odds for a 5:1 business connection which at the time was a low contention ratio

Beats the arse off VMs 255:1 :D

[qasdfdsaq]

So will everyone be getting a free upgrade to 80/20 or will that be a separate product?

and 5:1 contention is really good, like really really good, the company I worked for a couple of years ago were paying over the odds for a 5:1 business connection which at the time was a low contention ratio

Beats the arse off VMs 255:1 :D
Everyone will reap the benefit of the higher line speed but whether everyone gets their data rate lifted I don't know.

Given BT only have "one speed" on both ADSL and VDSL right now, and most rumours suggest everyone will get a "free" upgrade, then I suspect, well, everyone will be getting a free upgrade. It's been said that with VM offering Unlimited* 100mb at £25 soon, BT's £25 for unlimited 40mb will look quite uncompetitive so they have no choice but to up it to £25 for unlimited 80mb.

Also as for contention ratio - that's the absolute max and on the upstream, not downstream. Most internet packages quote for downstream, where Infinity will be no worse than 23:1 on a fully loaded large cab and around 10:1 on a small cab (I can't remember the exact size of a small cab)


*Not really unlimited

[craigj2k12]

*Not really unlimited

lol

[Chrysalis]

I dont think VMs contention ratio is as high as 255:1, VMs issue remains that their end user's speeds are too close to the shared capacity speeds. Meaning that even with low contention ratio's congestion is more likely.

eg. 4 100mbit users on a 200mbit docsis3 pipe is only 2:1 but would probably still see congestion.

[craigj2k12]

when i asked about contention ratios on the live chat on VMs website they said it was 20:1

[qasdfdsaq]

Lies, it used to be 50:1 back when it was still good enough to brag about.

Though even at 20:1 that means there's at least 200 modems sharing my downstream channels.

[Chrysalis]

VM dont have a fixed contention ratio now.

It varies on what they can probably get away with.

This is true for most adsl isps as well tho. Fixed contention ratios seem a thing of the past on most consumer services.

[qasdfdsaq]

Yeah, unfortunately even Be design their network around "what they can probably get away with", though the difference is how they deal with it when contention eventually shows up.

So basically your two options are zero contention (leased line) or undefined/variable contention and undefined/variable promises to deal with it and nothing in between.

[Chrysalis]

and now BEs network is getting shaky, its how the uk market turned out as ofcom pushed for cheap services.

[qasdfdsaq]

It's not as perfect as it was, but a lot of serious providers still use it over BT's. And given how well Infinity is delivered, BT's core network isn't half bad.

[TROTER]

Thanks for all your posts talked to tech support today, they told me that I had received a wrong config file when changed from 50Mb to 30Mb.

He agreed my Upstream Max Traffic rate was wrong, tried pushing a new config to my super hub with no success.

The problem has now been escalated but may take seven to ten days, I was told I may need to be upgraded back to the fifty and then reduced again for the problem to be resolved!

[gouldy]

your not on the 30mb package, your on the 20mb, that's why you've got the 2mb upload, they've just upped your download to 30mb


virgin are taking the pi55 imo with this, phone them up, retentions, and say your not happy about being hoodwinked into a lower upload and you want to go back on to the proper 30mb package

ive just had to do the same with 100mb, was getting 5mb upload, phoned retentions demanded to be put on what i was told i would be (100mb with 10mb upload) and he done it straight away

you must have missed what ive already posted

they can push the config file till the end of time, untill your back on the proper 30mb package you will only get 2mb upload, or if you wait until the double your speed has been done in your area, then it will go back to 3mb


edit go into my virgin and tell me what it says under your packages, for BB

---------- Post added at 23:07 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------



The problem has now been escalated but may take seven to ten days, I was told I may need to be upgraded back to the fifty and then reduced again for the problem to be resolved!


and that's exactly what they said to me, but funny how retentions sorted it in 3 mins on the phone, when i told them, there not giving me what i was promised so they can take the lot back

funny that :rolleyes:

[Chrysalis]

and that's exactly what they said to me, but funny how retentions sorted it in 3 mins on the phone, when i told them, there not giving me what i was promised so they can take the lot back

funny that :rolleyes:

yeah you probably got the package back along with the higher price.

[TROTER]

you must have missed what ive already posted

they can push the config file till the end of time, untill your back on the proper 30mb package you will only get 2mb upload, or if you wait until the double your speed has been done in your area, then it will go back to 3mb


edit go into my virgin and tell me what it says under your packages, for BB

---------- Post added at 23:07 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------




and that's exactly what they said to me, but funny how retentions sorted it in 3 mins on the phone, when i told them, there not giving me what i was promised so they can take the lot back

funny that :rolleyes:

Thanks Gouldy it was good to read your original post, good to get advice from someone that has had this problem.
I told the guy from tech support and retentions what you had mentioned in your post, and the guy from tech asked me if by any chance I had posted this on this forum as he had just finished reading this thread before I had rang. Later on I rang again in the evening and first tried explaining this to the “PHONE JACKER” in India and then retentions but neither understood?
For some reason it will not let me view my package at this moment, it does say my broadband is L.
I will give it another go on Monday. Thanks.

[gouldy]

yeah you probably got the package back along with the higher price.


there's no probably about it, and he credited me the difference, which was £7.50, (just for this month) then it will go down to 50mb price from April

so then it will be back to the same price as what i was paying on the 100mb with the 5mb upload

---------- Post added at 00:34 ---------- Previous post was at 00:27 ----------

Thanks Gouldy it was good to read your original post, good to get advice from someone that has had this problem.
I told the guy from tech support and retentions what you had mentioned in your post, and the guy from tech asked me if by any chance I had posted this on this forum as he had just finished reading this thread before I had rang. Later on I rang again in the evening and first tried explaining this to the “PHONE JACKER” in India and then retentions but neither understood?
For some reason it will not let me view my package at this moment, it does say my broadband is L.
I will give it another go on Monday. Thanks.


phone jacker :D i might use that

id get on it first thing in the morning, as ive got a feeling there changing all the packages around, you might end up being stuck with the 2mb upload, until the double your speed has been done that is

---------- Post added at 00:41 ---------- Previous post was at 00:34 ----------

just to show you

before (10 hours on phone, 7 to the phone jackers:D) telling me all sorts, even sent me new shub, apparently it was imposable to get me on the 10mb upload

Primary Upstream Service Flow
Upstream(0)
SFID 6025
Max Traffic Rate 5120000 bps
Max Traffic Burst 16320 bytes
Mix Traffic Rate 0 bps
Max Concatenated Burst 16320 bytes
Scheduling Type Best Effort

and then after 5 mins to retentions

Primary Upstream Service Flow
Upstream(0)
SFID 6612
Max Traffic Rate 10250000 bps
Max Traffic Burst 16320 bytes
Mix Traffic Rate 0 bps
Max Concatenated Burst 16320 bytes
Scheduling Type Best Effort


and both are the same price from the 1st of april

[Sephiroth]

......Also as for contention ratio - that's the absolute max and on the upstream, not downstream. Most internet packages quote for downstream, where Infinity will be no worse than 23:1 on a fully loaded large cab and around 10:1 on a small cab (I can't remember the exact size of a small cab)



Where do you get those contention numbers from, Qasi?

[Chrysalis]

Where do you get those contention numbers from, Qasi?

I am curious also.

Because all news reports I have read state that all FTTC cabinets are uncontended aka 1:1 back to the exchange. So in that regard it doesnt matter how heavily utilised a cabinet is, of course the exchange backhaul will still be contended but BT have supposedbly done away with static contention ratios.

[Sephiroth]

We need Qasi's answer! The backbone contention is what we need to know because it is uncontended to the MSAN in the cabinet. I don't think the backhaul is an issue but I haven't studied the frequency plan and any shared frequencies.

[General Maximus]

so what sort of speed do you get going from the cabinet to the cmts and cmts to whatever is next? Something like 10gbit?

[Sephiroth]

No idea how it's synced from the MSAN back to the exchange, mon General. I don't think it matters as long as it's not slower than one's connection speed. I'd guess 80 meg (the new Sync speed).

[qasdfdsaq]

The MSAN is *in* the exchange! I think you might be a bit confused about technologies here.

There are no shared frequencies on FTTC.

You have a completely uncontended phone line running from your home to the cabinet, that's the only place where frequencies apply. Once you hit the cab your phone line is split off into two - one goes via a tie line to the nearest FTTC cab which contains a DSLAM, the other connects back to the exchange traditionally for POTS telephone. I call it a DSLAM and not an MSAN because it only does one thing - terminating VDSL2 connections. It doesn't handle phone, ADSL, or anything else.

At the FTTC cab, all sense of RF signals end. Your analogue/RF DSL signal is terminated in the cab, and you are bridged onto a pure optical data network, most probably some ethernet derivative with MPLS on top or SDH. Those are native optical carriers, not a bunch of DOCSIS frequencies crammed onto hybrid-fibre like on VM. Optical carriers operate on a frequency of several thousand gigahertz. SDH, if they use it to the cab, could explain Infinity's incredibly low jitter.

So your DSL gets terminated at the cab, on the other side of the cab is essentially a gigabit ethernet cable to the exchange. To the best of my knowledge the fibre cab's feed is uncontended, symmetric gigabit. That's the basis for my contention calculations. I know it's gigabit down, and I know it's uncontended. I haven't had confirmation it's also gigabit up, but I have been told it's "proper" fibre and not GPON, so no reason it shouldn't.



---------- Post added at 10:56 ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 ----------

so what sort of speed do you get going from the cabinet to the cmts and cmts to whatever is next? Something like 10gbit?
I was talking about BT, which is DSL, not cable; DSL uses DSLAMs, cable uses CMTS.

The Infinity DSLAM is in the cab. From the cab, it's gigabit.

[Sephiroth]

AFAIK the MSAN is in the street cabinet and there is aggregation equipment at the exchange. People callit the DSLAM because that's what the ADSL termination was called (at the exchange).

The fibre to the exchange: that's where I'm asking if the 288 users share any frequencies or are there 288 17c slots in the frequency plan? EDIT: I suppose if it's DWDM and working up in the multi-gigabit frequencies (say 40 Gb/s), then there doesn't need to be frequency sharing. So I see what you're saying there.

Are you sure it's gigabit from the cabinet? What's 288 * 80 meg? If it is gigabit (like 1), then there's theoretical contention from the cabinet.

What have I misunderstood?

[General Maximus]

That is what i wanted to know. We keep saying the core of vm's network has got bucket loads of capscity and the bottle necks are at the cabinet. So my question is that if everything is fibre, what sort of throughput are we looking at? If you have got 288 users at an average of 50mbit i would hope the connection out the cabinet would be at least 1.5gbit. If you have got 6 cabinets going into cmts (as an example) then i would expect the next hope from the cmts to be 10gbit.

[Andrewcrawford23]

That is what i wanted to know. We keep saying the core of vm's network has got bucket loads of capscity and the bottle necks are at the cabinet. So my question is that if everything is fibre, what sort of throughput are we looking at? If you have got 288 users at an average of 50mbit i would hope the connection out the cabinet would be at least 1.5gbit. If you have got 6 cabinets going into cmts (as an example) then i would expect the next hope from the cmts to be 10gbit.

i think it mgith vary, from 1-10gbit hence the reson some areas are better than other, i pretty sure it is 10gbti tothe cmts it been to long since i was taught it :p

[qasdfdsaq]

AFAIK the MSAN is in the street cabinet and there is aggregation equipment at the exchange. People callit the DSLAM because that's what the ADSL termination was called (at the exchange).
I wouldn't call it an MSAN as there is no 'M', it's a single SAN, aka (V)DSL(2)-AN

The fibre to the exchange: that's where I'm asking if the 288 users share any frequencies or are there 288 17c slots in the frequency plan? EDIT: I suppose if it's DWDM and working up in the multi-gigabit frequencies (say 40 Gb/s), then there doesn't need to be frequency sharing. So I see what you're saying there.There's no frequencies or DWDM - it's a single optical data carrier. DSL, 17c, frequency plans, etc. all stop at the cabinet. Think of it as a gigabit LAN cable.

Are you sure it's gigabit from the cabinet? What's 288 * 80 meg? If it is gigabit (like 1), then there's theoretical contention from the cabinet.That's what I'm told, and yes as I've said the service is contended from the cabinet - that's where I calculate contention ratios from.. The cabinet itself, does not contend with other cabinets though.

I could probably find out by packet flooding the cabinet and seeing when every line on the cab starts showing congestion... But I don't think BT would like me for that.

What have I misunderstood?By the sounds of thins I think you think the DSL signal is multiplexed onto the optical cable from the cabinet to the exchange like it would be on DOCSIS. This isn't the case - the DSL signal stops at the cabinet. Backhaul to the exchange goes via a packet data on a single optical frequency, in the same way as data goes between different exchanges with traditional DSL.

Short, oversimplified version:
On DOCSIS cable, you send an RF signal down the cable. When it reaches the optical node, it just gets converted from one cable type to another. It doesn't get connected to "the internet" until the CMTS at the far end of the optical node.

On BT FTTC, you send an RF signal down the cable. When it reaches the optical node, it stops and gets plugged straight into "the internet*".

* OK, it doesn't really, it's really IP over PPPoE over PTM over MPLS over Ethernet or SDH but as the latter two are "internet" carrier technologies it illustrates the principle...



---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:01 ----------

That is what i wanted to know. We keep saying the core of vm's network has got bucket loads of capscity and the bottle necks are at the cabinet. So my question is that if everything is fibre, what sort of throughput are we looking at? If you have got 288 users at an average of 50mbit i would hope the connection out the cabinet would be at least 1.5gbit. If you have got 6 cabinets going into cmts (as an example) then i would expect the next hope from the cmts to be 10gbit.
VM cabinets and BT cabinets work completely differently.

A BT FTTC cabinet only comes in two sizes, and each cabinet has it's own fibre to the exchange.

A VM cabinet comes in many more different sizes and types, but cabinets that connect the *user* do not have fibre, only a shared coax, that goes to a bigger cabinet that merges it with more shared coax which goes to an even bigger cabinet that has one or more optical fibres from the CMTS. But those optical fibres carry RF signals, not data. A VM optical node, is really just a super-expensive media converter.

BT's cabinets have mains power and battery backup and hence house active equipment that converts RF signals (DSL) into data packets and sends them "direct" to "the internet". Most VM cabinets don't have power and are basically just gigantic splitters that stick lots of cables into one so can't take fibre or use more efficient packet data.

[Sephiroth]

Qasi - where do you get this stuff and terminology on BT Infinity? Maybe I'm too old guard - but there is a published band (frequency) plan for VDSL2.

And you can't be plugged into the internet from the DSLAM onwards because there is a Head End that does much the same thing as the VM Cable Head End.

I'm far from the expert on VDSL2, but I'd really like to know where you get that stuff from. And what's this "MPLS on top" you mentioned a couple of posts back?

[qasdfdsaq]

The frequency plan only applies to the section of the network that actually transmits radio frequencies - that's your line from the home to the cabinet. There is no RF past this point so no frequency plan. Compare a wireless router for example. The wireless network is regulated by the wireless frequency plans/regulations, but the ethernet cable connecting to the router is not, because the radio signals are converted into packet data by the router. It's exactly the same at the FTTC cab, except they use an optical ethernet cable.

I know you're not plugged directly in to "the internet" but you *are* plugged into a optical packet data network, which is what most of the core internet is, not an RF network. There are "head-ends" and aggregators and what not but they process switched packet data, not RF or DSL signals. Your DSL signal stops at the cab and is never sent any further. In exactly the same way that DSL isn't used between your modem and your router, it's also not used between the cab (modem) and the exchange (router).

MPLS = multi protocol label switching. It's what most carriers use these days to carry different types of data on top of the same physical channel, allowing, BT for example, to offer data, telephone, ethernet, leased line, virtual P2P, and other ISP's data over the same core network. I don't know whether individual cabs use it or not but it is quite widespread elsewhere.

Terminology I use is just generic stuff as far as I am aware, there's nothing really specific to BT Infinity about it. Most of what I do know is gleaned from here:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/21cn_network.htm

[Sephiroth]

I don't mean to be stubborn, Qasi, but I'd have expected some form of WDM in the fibre. It's pretty standard - I don't think that TDM over fibre is used between the DSLAM and the exchange because of the random nature of what's going into the DSLAM. I hust don't know at this level of detail. But I don't think you know either or else it hasn't been explained to me in sufficient detail!

I've attached a "bible" that I use to guide me in these matters. I've got more detailed stuff but this keeps it simple.

Cheers

[qasdfdsaq]

WDM is used in BT's core network but is extremely expensive - if you look at the Kitz link earlier, you'd see that only the biggest 20% of exchanges even have access to WDM equipment, the vast majority are too small for it to be worthwhile. And if a ~10,000 line exchange is too small, I don't see a 288-line cab being big enough to qualify. WDM is only used on ultra-high bandwidth links where the cost of the WDM equipment would be offset by the higher cost of laying a new fibre - and that's only after you've maxed out multiple 10 Gig-40 Gig links. Since the cabs do just fine on a single 1 Gig channel, there's no need for WDM.

There is no need to TDM what's going into the fibre either, because there is only one carrier going into the fibre - nothing is being multiplexed. It's just a standard packet data carrier, probably ethernet or SDH.

[Sephiroth]

OK - I've found your source. Kitz. Who am I to argue with Kitz!

[qasdfdsaq]

Sod everything I've just said, according to this guy's CV, looks like BT Infinity cabs might be using GPON after all:

http://uk.linkedin.com/in/peterwebbe

GPON does kind of use WDM and WDD - though el-cheapo versions of it rather than the carrier-grade stuff I was thinking about (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/Optical_Metro-5200.jpg)
Though apart from spraying a load of buzzwords about in the same sentence, that guy doesn't explicitly link the Huawei OLTs to BT FTTC.

[craigj2k12]

if this helps?

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2972/fttcdiagram.png

[qasdfdsaq]

Yesh I've been looking for something like that for ages. Now I want MOAR. Where did you find it?

[craigj2k12]

ive got one for FTTP if your interested??

[Andrewcrawford23]

ive got one for FTTP if your interested??

i am still trying to get my head round the above one i am assumign that for bt fttc

[craigj2k12]

yeah thats from BT themselves so its specific to their setup

[Andrewcrawford23]

oh im goign to take a few days studying that to understand there fttc network then see wether upgrading to fttc when available before i can get fttp on demand apart from the obvious results of inifity being better would be worth the extra cost in current climate

[craigj2k12]

surely infinity is cheaper?

[Andrewcrawford23]

surely infinity is cheaper?

if stand alone yes but it will depending lien rantal phone ackage adn tv, although saying that i am running sky with virign tv on lowest package. but i need ot justify it to the wife trust me woman arre a pain in this area :p

[Sephiroth]

Yesh I've been looking for something like that for ages. Now I want MOAR. Where did you find it?
It's at http://www.leyingitout.co.uk/2010/01/what-is-fttc-and-how-does-it-work/

Amazing all the stuff you know without having seen that sort of diagram. LOL.

[qasdfdsaq]

Eheheh. I read a lot but a picture says a thousand words...

That page seems to confirm what I've been told in the past though - each cab gets direct GigE fibre, rather than GPON. I was beginning to get worried.

Multiple 1Gbit links (four from the looks of the first diagram) would mean they're even more prepared for future/higher speeds than I thought and should have no problem providing 300-1000mbps FoD.