Can you have VM through the Kingston Communication network?

[Tim Deegan]

My mother lives in the Kingston Communication area, and she is under the impression that she can only use Kingston Communication for her broadband and telephone service.

Can anyone tell me if this is the case or not?

[Andrewcrawford23]

My mother lives in the Kingston Communication area, and she is under the impression that she can only use Kingston Communication for her broadband and telephone service.

Can anyone tell me if this is the case or not?

if you mean hull yes your mother is in bad area kingston commuicaitons hasa monolpy over that area but since it is small monolpy i think ofcom doesnt do anything about it

[Alan Fry]

Unlike the rest of the UK, KC have a almost complete monopoly in Hull, but there are some alternatives. The main one is Nexus Telecom (via the KC network) for phone service and Sure Broadband for internet.

Virgin Media on the other hand do not serve Hull at all!

At least as far as I know!

[Tim Deegan]

if you mean hull yes your mother is in bad area kingston commuicaitons hasa monolpy over that area but since it is small monolpy i think ofcom doesnt do anything about it

She actually lives in Swanland (North Ferriby), which is to the west of Hull.

I've checked the post code on the VM website, and it says she can have VM National for £7.99 per month. But will she still have to pay KC line rental?

[m419]

Unlike the rest of the UK, KC have a almost complete monopoly in Hull, but there are some alternatives. The main one is Nexus Telecom (via the KC network) for phone service and Sure Broadband for internet.

Virgin Media on the other hand do not serve Hull at all!

At least as far as I know!

Sure Broadband do not operate at all in UK mainland.

I heard Tiscali was available at one point

[Alan Fry]

Sure Broadband do not operate at all in UK mainland.

I heard Tiscali was available at one point

Do you know if Talk Talk still serve Hull?

[qasdfdsaq]

Why the hell would you want VM national.

[Alan Fry]

Why the hell would you want VM national.

His mum wants to see of there are other operators apart from KC in Hull!

[qasdfdsaq]

If you can get VM National you can get just about any BT Wholesale provider. Of which there are tons that are better than VM national.

Swanland also has AOL, TalkTalk and Sky LLU services.

Again, why the hell would you want VM national.

[m419]

Do you know if Talk Talk still serve Hull?

I've no idea

[Stuart]

My mother lives in the Kingston Communication area, and she is under the impression that she can only use Kingston Communication for her broadband and telephone service.

Can anyone tell me if this is the case or not?

You could try entering the postcode into the Broadband checker at http://www.samknows.com

[m419]

Do you know if Talk Talk still serve Hull?

That sure broadband is something completely different, Sure in hull is wireless

[qasdfdsaq]

You could try entering the postcode into the Broadband checker at http://www.samknows.com
I did.

Hence


Swanland also has AOL, TalkTalk and Sky LLU services.

[Tim Deegan]

Sure Broadband do not operate at all in UK mainland.

I heard Tiscali was available at one point

I've used Tiscali at one of my offices previously...never again.

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:54 ----------

Why the hell would you want VM national.

Because I won't use Tiscali, BT, or AOL, due to previous experience. I have personally found VM the best of a bad bunch.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Whoever she goes with, will she still have to pay the KC line rental?

[Andrewcrawford23]

I've used Tiscali at one of my offices previously...never again.

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:54 ----------



Because I won't use Tiscali, BT, or AOL, due to previous experience. I have personally found VM the best of a bad bunch.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Whoever she goes with, will she still have to pay the KC line rental?

i think so, unless it someone liek sky who have llu and can offer the line rental thorugh them but i think sky pays it to bt they lease it form bt and then lease it back to you, but i cant be sure but she will still need the line rental just cant be sure if it will be form kc, check and see if sky is avaialable apart from bad cusotmer service tiscali are slightly better my suggest stay away from virgin national if oyu can get someone else use them

[Tim Deegan]

i think so, unless it someone liek sky who have llu and can offer the line rental thorugh them but i think sky pays it to bt they lease it form bt and then lease it back to you, but i cant be sure but she will still need the line rental just cant be sure if it will be form kc, check and see if sky is avaialable apart from bad cusotmer service tiscali are slightly better my suggest stay away from virgin national if oyu can get someone else use them

What's wrong with Virgin National?

[craigj2k12]

its crap

[qasdfdsaq]

It's crap.

[Tim Deegan]

Ok, so two of you say it is crap. Although one of you would say that about anything to do with VM, so I can discount that remark.

So craigj2k12 why do you think it is crap? And how do others compare?

[Andrewcrawford23]

as has been put it is crap, they use the same line as other adsl providers but for some reason they seem to always get lowered speeds than a similar adsl provider witht ehe same headline speed for example 8mb just take bt for example you might get 6.2mb but with virign national it be mroe like 3.4mb that is figures that dnt exist but i hope you can see the point i a making, plus virign national have very crappy stm worse than teh cable stm

[Tim Deegan]

as has been put it is crap, they use the same line as other adsl providers but for some reason they seem to always get lowered speeds than a similar adsl provider witht ehe same headline speed for example 8mb just take bt for example you might get 6.2mb but with virign national it be mroe like 3.4mb that is figures that dnt exist but i hope you can see the point i a making, plus virign national have very crappy stm worse than teh cable stm

So who would you suggest, taking into account that my Mum won't change if it costs her more than £13.99 (including the KC line rental).

[satellite-man]

If you can get VM National you can get just about any BT Wholesale provider. Of which there are tons that are better than VM national.

Swanland also has AOL, TalkTalk and Sky LLU services.

Again, why the hell would you want VM national.

agreed id rather have no internet at all then have VM national

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:32 ----------

So who would you suggest, taking into account that my Mum won't change if it costs her more than £13.99 (including the KC line rental).

Be There are good

[Tim Deegan]

Be There are good

?????

[satellite-man]

https://www.bethere.co.uk/web/beportal/homepage

[Tim Deegan]

https://www.bethere.co.uk/web/beportal/homepage

The bad news: We're sorry, but it appears that you live too far from the exchange for us to provide you service.

The good news: we may be able to provide you a landline service along with broadband, if you want a new line installed in your home (fee apply).

[Andrewcrawford23]

it would depend on teh operators in that area i know there isnt many hence why kingsotn have the near complete monopoly on teh area, if o2/ or be broadband are available they be the first choice i would use, if not i look to bt, talk talk, orange and sky, if none of them are available then i couldnt really suggest anothe one as those are teh best for speed/quailty and generally price

---------- Post added at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------



that is kinda suggesting her really only option is kingston :( but one the ones i suggest might be available but i have a bad feeling they aint

[satellite-man]

Quote:
The bad news: We're sorry, but it appears that you live too far from the exchange for us to provide you service.

The good news: we may be able to provide you a landline service along with broadband, if you want a new line installed in your home (fee apply).

fair enough

its expensive but have you thought about getting satellite internet ? it will give you a much more stable & faster connection but at a pretty high price

[Andrewcrawford23]

fair enough

its expensive but have you thought about getting satellite internet ? it will give you a much more stable & faster connection but at a pretty high price

most satille connection are at a godo price now jsut he install cost more i think few hundred pounds, and there a few options eutelsat, astraconenct and another one

[satellite-man]

hence why i said its expensive, paying £300+ for installation is off putting imo

[Andrewcrawford23]

hence why i said its expensive, paying £300+ for installation is off putting imo

that is by the companies ;) get a private installer you can get it done for about 50-150 :) but this is off topic now

[Tim Deegan]

The main problem with KC is their very low download limit. It's fine for my Mum most of the time, but my brother stayed there a while ago, and it cost over £100 for the month.

Orange are a huge no go....con merchants!!!

[satellite-man]

that is by the companies ;) get a private installer you can get it done for about 50-150 :) but this is off topic now

:p:

[qasdfdsaq]

Swanland is not a KC monopoly area. It's on the Barton on Humber exchange which is a completely deregulated BT market 3 exchange.

[Tim Deegan]

Swanland is not a KC monopoly area. It's on the Barton on Humber exchange which is a completely deregulated BT market 3 exchange.

Are you sure about that?

Barton is on the south bank of the Humber, and Swanland is on the north, just to the West of Hull.

[qasdfdsaq]

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker (someone pointed you to this already earlier).

I plugged in HU14 3QE which is pretty much in the middle of Swanland,
BT ADSL broadband availability

You are connected to the Barton On Humber (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SLBCC) telephone exchange.


ADSL is available in your area
Your exchange is also enabled for ADSL Max services
Your exchange should have ADSL2+ services installed by the 31st of March 2012

You are approximately 7.12km from the exchange. Note that this is the straight line distance - the actual cable length will be longer!
» Your BT ADSL code is: AEAEAEZ


You are connected to the Barton On Humber (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SLBCC) telephone exchange.
The following table details the availability of LLU services at your location.


AOL is available in your area
TalkTalk (CPW) is available in your area
Sky Broadband / Easynet is available in your area
KC (Kingston) is available in your area

Rudimentary map (as you can see the exchange covers both sides):
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/02/32.jpg


Plug your actual posctode into that site for more accurate details.

[Tim Deegan]

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker (someone pointed you to this already earlier).

I plugged in HU14 3QE which is pretty much in the middle of Swanland,
BT ADSL broadband availability

You are connected to the Barton On Humber (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SLBCC) telephone exchange.


ADSL is available in your area
Your exchange is also enabled for ADSL Max services
Your exchange should have ADSL2+ services installed by the 31st of March 2012

You are approximately 7.12km from the exchange. Note that this is the straight line distance - the actual cable length will be longer!
» Your BT ADSL code is: AEAEAEZ


You are connected to the Barton On Humber (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SLBCC) telephone exchange.
The following table details the availability of LLU services at your location.


AOL is available in your area
TalkTalk (CPW) is available in your area
Sky Broadband / Easynet is available in your area
KC (Kingston) is available in your area

Rudimentary map (as you can see the exchange covers both sides):
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/02/32.jpg


Plug your actual posctode into that site for more accurate details.

What is ADSL max and ADSL 2?

[Andrewcrawford23]

adsl max i think it 8mb and adsl 2 is 24mb well up to

if sky is available i would suggest goign to them but i would be surprised if o2 wasnt available to which would be good, if it off a bt excahgen why are you saying she has kc line rntal??

[Tim Deegan]

adsl max i think it 8mb and adsl 2 is 24mb well up to

if sky is available i would suggest goign to them but i would be surprised if o2 wasnt available to which would be good, if it off a bt excahgen why are you saying she has kc line rntal??

Because she is with KC, not BT. I presume they both cover that area.

[qasdfdsaq]

Yes, as you can see from the info I posted above it's a category 3 exchange with several providers, including KC available.

[Andrewcrawford23]

she could get teh lien rental direct with sky then so no need to have kc at all

[Alan Fry]

What's wrong with Virgin National?

Nowere near as good as Virgin Fiber Optic!

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/broadband_checker (someone pointed you to this already earlier).

I plugged in HU14 3QE which is pretty much in the middle of Swanland,
BT ADSL broadband availability

You are connected to the Barton On Humber (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SLBCC) telephone exchange.


ADSL is available in your area
Your exchange is also enabled for ADSL Max services
Your exchange should have ADSL2+ services installed by the 31st of March 2012

You are approximately 7.12km from the exchange. Note that this is the straight line distance - the actual cable length will be longer!
» Your BT ADSL code is: AEAEAEZ


You are connected to the Barton On Humber (http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/SLBCC) telephone exchange.
The following table details the availability of LLU services at your location.


AOL is available in your area
TalkTalk (CPW) is available in your area
Sky Broadband / Easynet is available in your area
KC (Kingston) is available in your area

Rudimentary map (as you can see the exchange covers both sides):
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/02/32.jpg


Plug your actual posctode into that site for more accurate details.

So it is run by BT then?

---------- Post added at 10:32 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

Can anyone explain why GPO Telephones (now BT) did not take control of KC, also why did not cable company serve this area, I mean Hull is a large city in the UK with over 260,000 people living there!

[Tim Deegan]

Nowere near as good as Virgin Fiber Optic!

Talk about stating the obvious!!

[Pierre]

fair enough

its expensive but have you thought about getting satellite internet ? it will give you a much more stable & faster connection but at a pretty high price

Great advice, you've sold me on that one

4Gb £25.00 a month and £100 receiver costs.

This coming from the bloke who would rather have no broadband than Virgin National.

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Can anyone explain why GPO Telephones (now BT) did not take control of KC, also why did not cable company serve this area, I mean Hull is a large city in the UK with over 260,000 people living there!

Because GPO didn't run the Hull telephone network, it has always been Kingston, they used to have (yellow, I think) Phone Boxs, instead of Red ones.

When the cable franchises were set up, they didn't set one up for the Kingston area.

[qasdfdsaq]

Talk about stating the obvious!!
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/02/57.png
50mb Virgin "fibre optic".

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/02/58.png
My mobile phone.

Yes, fibre optic is obviously better because it is.

[craigj2k12]

when we say fibre optic.......

ohhh the fibre/copper network VM supply

[Tim Deegan]

when we say fibre optic.......

ohhh the fibre/copper network VM supply

Don't you mean fibre/coax, which is capable of carrying far more than the thin copper wires that most of the UK have until BT install fibre optics?

Also are BT putting fibre optic cables right to the house?

[Begall]

Ofcom actually conducted an investigation into KC's monopoly a few years ago. They came to the conclusion that KC offered other ISP's access to their network at fair market rates and the reason nobody was taking them up on the offer was due to Hull being too small to bother with.

Having gone to university there my biggest problem with them was how much it cost. The 8-10MB connection we had with a 100GB daytime cap cost as much as my 50MB VM connection does now, and the line rental was also more expensive than alternatives throughout the country and it'll only get worse as time goes on. A few years ago it was relatively in line with the rest of the country as far as speeds went, but as far as I'm aware KC are only just now looking at rolling out a fibre trial in one location. Without any sort of competition I can't see why people won't still be paying £35/m for a capped ADSL 2+ connection for the foreseeable future.

[Pierre]

Don't you mean fibre/coax, coax is copper. It's not twisted pair copper, but it's copper all the same.

I don't know what performance stats it has over standard twisted pair but it probably doesn't matter over the distance it is deployed.

which is capable of carrying far more than the thin copper wires that most of the UK have until BT install fibre optics? well BT are installing FTTC, albeit a different flavour.

As it stands virgins network is good for 200Mb, whereas BT's is good for 80Mb.

I say, as it stands, as technology never stops and you can bet that higher speeds over existing infrastructure will come along


Also are BT putting fibre aoptic cables right to the house? only, as is virgin media too, into trial projects dotted about the place, there are no plans for a wide scale roll out.

[qasdfdsaq]

As it stands virgins network is good for 200Mb, whereas BT's is good for 80Mb.

Neither of those have been formally deployed yet.

If you want to talk theoretical maximums, it's about 5gbps over copper coax vs 200mbps over a copper POTS line

[Sephiroth]

In HFC (Hybrid Fibre Coax) it's the frequency plan that sets the practical contended limits on speed at a given QAM. All that's required over distance for the coax is an adequate power level and low noise ingress.

VM's fibre is on the same frequency plan so same constraints apart from a better chance with SNR if it was FTTH.

BT's frequency plan is very different and I dare say that FTTH Infinity could perform a lot better than VM, particularly on the upstream.

[Tim Deegan]

coax is copper. It's not twisted pair copper, but it's copper all the same.

I know coax is copper, but I was just making a point, because VM's competition say things like "it isn't really fibre optic, because it's just copper wire into your house". But they fail to mention that it is very thick copper cable, unlike phone lines.

[qasdfdsaq]

How thick it is has nothing to do with its performance. Thicker ones can just as easily perform worse.

That's not what she said!

[Tim Deegan]

How thick it is has nothing to do with its performance. Thicker ones can just as easily perform worse.

That's not what she said!

Yes but they don't.

It's a simple fact that you simply can't get 200mb through phone cable. But you can through coax.

[qasdfdsaq]

Yes but they do.

And you can.

[Tim Deegan]

Yes but they do.

And you can.

Don't talk rubbish. It's well known that you can't get 200mb through phone cable.

[Andrewcrawford23]

Don't talk rubbish. It's well known that you can't get 200mb through phone cable.

acutally you can but the technology isnt used yet because it still in testing, but coax can handle higher speeds better than copper tisted wires

[Pierre]

Neither of those have been formally deployed yet.

If you want to talk theoretical maximums, it's about 5gbps over copper coax vs 200mbps over a copper POTS line

I'm not talking "theoretical"

VMs Docsis 3 network "is" capable of delivering 200mb, It hasn't been deployed because it hasn't had to be. They just keep turning up the dial everytime BT get close.

BT's infinity "is" capable of delivering 80mb.

I know that BT are developing much higher speeds with Huwaei kit, but that's further on down the line

---------- Post added at 09:45 ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 ----------

Don't talk rubbish. It's well known that you can't get 200mb through phone cable.

Depending on the architecture and distances you can get much faster than 200mb through twisted pair.

It's careless to talk with authority on something you know very little about.

[Andrewcrawford23]

Neither of those have been formally deployed yet.

If you want to talk theoretical maximums, it's about 5gbps over copper coax vs 200mbps over a copper POTS line

i think the copper twisted pairs line can handle higher im sur ei have seen trials of 400mb-1gb not sure of the distance or how stable it is but i have seen higher thoeritcal maximum quotd before

[Sephiroth]

The limiting factors on POTS copper are:

1/
Attenuation over distance (as you all know)

2/
Induced noise, especially at the cabinet where it's RF anarchy.

If noise can be overcome, the speed capability on POTS rises substantially but the attenuation problem doesn't go away.

[Andrewcrawford23]

The limiting factors on POTS copper are:

1/
Attenuation over distance (as you all know)

2/
Induced noise, especially at the cabinet where it's RF anarchy.

If noise can be overcome, the speed capability on POTS rises substantially but the attenuation problem doesn't go away.

that how we are where we are today ;) i mean in the form of advancesment it was said adsl would be th maximum you could ge tthen came adsal 2+ and so on, they will always find way to push teh limits jsut takes time but as you say the unlying things that cause the maxim to be reached will always be there and eventaly the maximum wil be reach what tha tis no one know until they reach it, jus tlike hard disks they now know the maximum smalls cell siz ethey can make o now knwo the maximum size ofa disk tehy can make with teh current type of convential hard disk the same is for speed until th find the absoulate maximum they wont know i suspect it will be into the gigabits whatever it is for both coax and twisted pair but what quite that is no one knwo yet time ill tell the way forward true fibre

[Tim Deegan]

Neither of those have been formally deployed yet.

If you want to talk theoretical maximums, it's about 5gbps over copper coax vs 200mbps over a copper POTS line

So that gives coax a 25x higher capacity.

200mb may be the theoretical maximum, but theoretical maximums are not practical ones, and are very rarely achievable for a reliable service.

There are obviously variables also, like the quality of the cables used.

[qasdfdsaq]

I'm not talking "theoretical"

VMs Docsis 3 network "is" capable of delivering 200mb, It hasn't been deployed because it hasn't had to be. They just keep turning up the dial everytime BT get close.

BT's infinity "is" capable of delivering 80mb.

I know that BT are developing much higher speeds with Huwaei kit, but that's further on down the line
VM's DOCSIS 3 network "is" capable of delivering 1.5gbps, it has been tested succesfully but hasn't had to be deployed yet.

BT's network "is" capable of delivering 200mb, it has been tested succesfully but hasn't had to be deployed yet.

(BT are already using tons of Huawei kit, the xDSL HomeHub 3 is Huawei after all)

---------- Post added at 00:21 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------

So that gives coax a 25x higher capacity.

200mb may be the theoretical maximum, but theoretical maximums are not practical ones, and are very rarely achievable for a reliable service.

There are obviously variables also, like the quality of the cables used.
But you have to remember that 25x more capacity is shared between 250+ homes, POTS phone lines are dedicated and uncontended to each and every customer.

[Tim Deegan]

But you have to remember that 25x more capacity is shared between 250+ homes, POTS phone lines are dedicated and uncontended to each and every customer.

I'm no engineer, but the way it was explained to me by an engineer was that it is fibre optic to the cabinet, and then coax to each individual property, and not one coax to 250 properties.

[craigj2k12]

yeah you get your own coax, its at the node and at the network where the high contention ratios are in place

[qasdfdsaq]

I'm no engineer, but the way it was explained to me by an engineer was that it is fibre optic to the cabinet, and then coax to each individual property, and not one coax to 250 properties.
The engineer failed to mention the bit between the optical cabinet and your local cabinet where all the coaxes are joined into one.

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fibre-coaxial for a general idea. As you can see it's one coax from the optical node that gets split into several hundred individual coaxes for each property or street depending on your area.

[Alan Fry]

Great advice, you've sold me on that one

4Gb £25.00 a month and £100 receiver costs.

This coming from the bloke who would rather have no broadband than Virgin National.

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------



Because GPO didn't run the Hull telephone network, it has always been Kingston, they used to have (yellow, I think) Phone Boxs, instead of Red ones.

When the cable franchises were set up, they didn't set one up for the Kingston area.

Why did the then Cable Authority not set up a francise for the Kingston area?

Also why did the govenment transfer KC from Hull City Council to GPO?

Will anybody (even VM) set up a cable network in the Kingston area?

---------- Post added at 11:36 ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 ----------

Ofcom actually conducted an investigation into KC's monopoly a few years ago. They came to the conclusion that KC offered other ISP's access to their network at fair market rates and the reason nobody was taking them up on the offer was due to Hull being too small to bother with.

Having gone to university there my biggest problem with them was how much it cost. The 8-10MB connection we had with a 100GB daytime cap cost as much as my 50MB VM connection does now, and the line rental was also more expensive than alternatives throughout the country and it'll only get worse as time goes on. A few years ago it was relatively in line with the rest of the country as far as speeds went, but as far as I'm aware KC are only just now looking at rolling out a fibre trial in one location. Without any sort of competition I can't see why people won't still be paying £35/m for a capped ADSL 2+ connection for the foreseeable future.

Virgin have a chance to gain a lot of customers if they build a cable network in Hull (where 250,000 people live)!

[Begall]

The city council will never ever ever ever ever grant the permission necessary for all the roads to be dug up to install cable, especially when you consider that KC likely provide plenty of local tax revenue that they would never see from Virgin.

Additionally, if you think about it, the expenditure to provide a brand new cable network to Hull would be much greater than for ADSL operators to buy bandwidth and slap some equipment in the Hull exchange(s). So if the latter is unappetizing, so is the former.

[Alan Fry]

The city council will never ever ever ever ever grant the permission necessary for all the roads to be dug up to install cable, especially when you consider that KC likely provide plenty of local tax revenue that they would never see from Virgin.

Additionally, if you think about it, the expenditure to provide a brand new cable network to Hull would be much greater than for ADSL operators to buy bandwidth and slap some equipment in the Hull exchange(s). So if the latter is unappetizing, so is the former.

Yes, but KC is not very liked with high prices and lack of fiber optic Internet, the people of Hull need a better provider than KC.

But you are right, the chances of a VM cable network in Hull is very low!