View Full Version : Over Utilisation...The laymans story
Over Utilisation, the truth for the layman (I’m one of them)…..
VM technician just left my property after my reports of poor speed issues, especially during peak hours…What are peak hours ? Well, from my experience these are between 3pm to midnight.
I have been experiencing speeds up to approx 0.5MB if I'm lucky (supposed to be upto 20MB)
I can accept lesser speeds during these peak hours to an extent, but when the low speeds render it impossible to open web pages & impossible to play games on Xbox Live, then this becomes unacceptable,but not according to VM.
Before VM will escalate the issue further, speeds have to fall into their “unacceptable” bracket….Now, from what I have been experiencing, their “unacceptable” limit is no service at all, as according to my readings (the technician saw my low speeds) the inability to open web pages & the inability to play games over Xbox live is still (just) within VM “acceptable” limits.
If you fall into their “unacceptable” band, your issue will then be escalated higher up the ladder to a team with a new set of excuses & stock responses to keep you hooked…..The truth as I see it is that regardless how high up the VM ladder you go it is irrelevant….there is nothing they can do to give you the speeds you want during peak hours because their systems & infrastructure is simply overloaded…..Because “your issue” has been escalated to the highest echelons within VM, the customer believes that they are now being “looked after”….but you’re not…You’re simply being dumped into their “time buying” trap…being left “on hold” until they upgrade their systems & infrastructure.
We can’t have high speed trains running at the high speeds they are capable of and designed for in the UK because the rail network & infrastructure is too old and not capable of handling these modern high speed trains….well, guess what, it’s exactly the same with VM broadband.
The service I & you pay for was never advertised as upto 20MB, 30MB, 50MB, 100MB between the hours of midnight to 3PM & upto 0.5MB at all other times (you know, the times when you actually need it).
Simply put, the “servers” that we use are overloaded with customers and cannot cope with the amount of bandwith being demanded of them.
Customers using the older 10MB service seem to be relatively unaffected in the majority of cases, as these “servers” are being utilised within their usable limits, as the majority of VM broadband users are using the 20/30MB servers. VM are reluctant (will not) shift users back onto the 10MB “servers” as these are due to be “closed down” in due course, and of course because they are cheaper. Then in due course everybody will be shifted up to the higher bandwith servers (currently totally overloaded already)
VM advertise and sell us the higher speeds, we buy into it thinking we are getting a higher speed but in fact although your new package now states 20/30MB broadband, we pay more, but the service actually goes down instead of up !! We quite happily buy into the "bigger/ faster is better" idea, but in the vast majority of cases, us users simply do not need these speeds for what we actually use the internet for.....4 to 5mB would be more than sufficient....It's like wanting a Ferrari on the driveway, but only ever driving to the the supermarket and back. Bigger / faster is not necessarily better, certainly not in the case of VM broadband anyway.
VM seem quite happy though to keep accepting new customers and putting them on the already overloaded “servers”…then as the complaints of slow speed roll in, respond with their overly used stock of excuses & “time buying” answers.
“send us your ping tests”, “send us your speed tests”, “we apologise for the slow speeds, these are due to blah blah whatever whatever…”
Enough VM……just tell the truth, then let your customers decide whether to stay with you or not….You’ll probably find that a little honesty will buy you a little more customer loyalty…Your continuous stream of lies will not.
These “time buying” stock answers are doing one thing and one thing only…keeping the customer tied in to paying for a service that they are not receiving and hopefully placating the customer for one more week, one more month, until the “new infrastructure” is in place……
Things will be OK by Dec 2011 we hear, then Jan 2012, then Feb 2012.…the latest is now March 2012.…VM are hoping that all their stock answers & excuses will keep customers paying for their services until the new infrastructure is ready, then all users will be shifted to 50 & 100MB….but there are no official dates being offered, in the meantime its just excuse after excuse to keep customers tied in…paying through the nose for an “unacceptable service”.
Your choices…..well, you can stick with it and hope that one day you will receive the service you are paying for but currently not receiving, or you can move providers, although there are no guarantees that the whole merry go round will not start again, but this time with a new Internet Service Provider.
But please, please, for your own sake & sanity…..stop simply accepting the stock excuses being given….stop sending your “ping” & “speed test” results to VM…. You’re completely wasting your time….you’re simply falling into the “time buying” trap.
Detail you fault (response in 7 days)
Send your test results (response in 7 days)
Give it a few days to look for improvement & complain again (response in 7 days)
Send more test results (response in 7 days)
See, that’s another month VM have bought themselves….another payment from you, yet your service is the same or worse, more than likely worse as in this past month VM have signed up another 50 customers and dumped them on the servers, thus degrading your service even further….
And the “not so” merry go round keeps spinning & spinning…..No wonder we are all dizzy with it.
Anyway…. BT Infinity about to be ordered. This is one merry go round I no longer wish to ride on.
These are my personal views only .
Ignitionnet
17-12-2011, 09:53
They probably released 100Mb relatively recently to your area and you were lucky enough to get a torrent head or two sign up in your area and seed the hell out of the bandwidth.
That seems to be the common issue, no excuse of course.
kwikbreaks
17-12-2011, 10:04
The VM Community board is full of these stories and I've seen the same in my area but not so extreme as many are describing. If VM don't get around to sorting out their traffic management PDQ then the whole network will be borked.
Of course as soon as they do a different set of complaints will be seen.
VM's total incompetence in running their network and the rollout of the superior FTTC technology over the next few years could see VM go to the wall IMO.
It's worrying that a couple of users downloading the internet 24/7 can bring a network to its knees, but that does seem to be happening.
I personally don't believe that VM should upgrade their network just so that questionable activities can be absorbed. They should be employing bettter, more intelligent STM, or kicking the software/film/porn hoarders off the network altogether.
kwikbreaks
17-12-2011, 14:07
IMO the problem doesn't lie with the customers who bought a totally unlimited 100mbps service it lies with a company that sells such a product without the ability to support it.
True the chances are that the connection is being used to infringe copyright as there are few legitimate home uses for such a product but then again if there are few legitimate uses for such a product why is it being sold?
As it happens I know of at least one 100% legitimate way to completely max out the downstream on 100Mbps without the need to invest in a disk farm or anything more sophisticated than a fairly mediocre desktop.
Mick Fisher
17-12-2011, 15:57
IMO the problem doesn't lie with the customers who bought a totally unlimited 100mbps service it lies with a company that sells such a product without the ability to support it.
True the chances are that the connection is being used to infringe copyright as there are few legitimate home uses for such a product but then again if there are few legitimate uses for such a product why is it being sold?
As it happens I know of at least one 100% legitimate way to completely max out the downstream on 100Mbps without the need to invest in a disk farm or anything more sophisticated than a fairly mediocre desktop.
Nothing new in that. The network falls over every time they upgrade the service. Then over the ensueing months, maybe years even, they slowly get it fixed till most subs can get the speeds they are paying for.....and then......a new upgrade comes along..........and the whole damn cycle starts again. :(
They have only got away with it because until recently they were the only game in town. Now that this is no longer the case, it will be interesting to see how things pan out for VM in the coming months.
jordyGFC
17-12-2011, 18:40
Hearing storys like these make me pray my area dosnt get oversubscribed soon :S
... the chances are that the connection is being used to infringe copyright as there are few legitimate home uses for such a product....
Streaming TV can be a legitimate use:
You'll find that many web sites allow you to watch video, even live video, without having to wait around for more than a few seconds for it to start. In many cases video is offered in two or more different sizes or at different qualities - so that you can choose the one that plays best with your connection speed. Having a faster connection means you can watch the video at a larger size and better quality.
http://www.broadband.co.uk/guides/beginners/page3/
Daveoc64
17-12-2011, 20:14
Streaming TV can be a legitimate use:
A Blu-ray disc has a video bitrate of approximately 40mbps - that's the highest bitrate you'll find available to consumers at the moment.
An HDTV channel like BBC HD or Sky Living HD is only about 12mbps.
Online streaming uses even less than that (even in HD).
20mbps would be enough for virtually all online streaming.
I do think that a 100mbps product has a place in the market though.
hi
Am on 10mb and Suffering similar problems. last few weeks we have Suffered speed losses
showing .095 to 2.5 mb max for hours on End .Yesterday Friday was the worst 2.5 all day untill 2100 then back to 9.5 . oN Phone to tech dept they want to access my computer and see whats slowing it down well there is 3 in use so whats the point? they have played with Router (D-LINK) Channels its on 6 at moment and they said log in Daily find the channel best for you should fix it they said it has made no Differance . Latest was you are a fairly Heavy Downl oader could be that as well well that Rubbish normal browsing here EMAIL , WEBSITES, and not much Else.
There is Engineer calling again Tuesday to sort the TV service On demand has become totally useless picture break up all the time . i was told its loose on back of box tighten up will be ok . On three boxes Rubbish so engineer booked to check levels but why i mention this is Tech on phone Said Ask tech caller to look at your www there
trained to do it all . I have a feeling this again will be a total waste of my time and there's
As were on new 12 month contract leaving isnt an option getting the problem fixed
i very much Doubt we ever will .
Tony
frustrated gu14 area User
Digital Fanatic
17-12-2011, 22:36
grewer9, I've responded in your other thread. Your issue is not over utilisation of your CMTS, it's a load balancing issue. We are going to work on it in the early hours of Sunday morning.
---------- Post added at 22:36 ---------- Previous post was at 22:34 ----------
hi
Am on 10mb and Suffering similar problems. last few weeks we have Suffered speed losses
showing .095 to 2.5 mb max for hours on End .Yesterday Friday was the worst 2.5 all day untill 2100 then back to 9.5 . oN Phone to tech dept they want to access my computer and see whats slowing it down well there is 3 in use so whats the point? they have played with Router (D-LINK) Channels its on 6 at moment and they said log in Daily find the channel best for you should fix it they said it has made no Differance . Latest was you are a fairly Heavy Downl oader could be that as well well that Rubbish normal browsing here EMAIL , WEBSITES, and not much Else.
There is Engineer calling again Tuesday to sort the TV service On demand has become totally useless picture break up all the time . i was told its loose on back of box tighten up will be ok . On three boxes Rubbish so engineer booked to check levels but why i mention this is Tech on phone Said Ask tech caller to look at your www there
trained to do it all . I have a feeling this again will be a total waste of my time and there's
As were on new 12 month contract leaving isnt an option getting the problem fixed
i very much Doubt we ever will .
Tony
frustrated gu14 area User
Those issues sound related to me, so the engineer should be able to resolve both.
thanks reply i was not aware same TECH guy did it all or could always a separate bloke has called . will post response to visit . Tried on demand last night Vision ok Sound well out
of sync reboot box no change . WWW Speed hovered around 6Mb all evening. only my
Laptop on in house not Downloading anything at all .
Chrysalis
19-12-2011, 19:27
there is defenitly legit uses to sustain usage of 10mbit upstream, stuff like live video streaming happens on a more frequent basis and more and more uploaded videos on youtube are of HD quality.
downloading extreme amounts on 100mbit is more then likely copyright infringement however an isp cant use that as an excuse to not cater for such activities, as at the end of the day VM sell their product and an an ideal world they should be taking responsiblity for it, instead the ASA have pussy footed and only require 10% of customers to be able to achieve the marketed speeds. Legitimate use of high bandwidth is only going to grow and not shrink in future and rumours are the next xbox console will be downloads only for games, no physical media. That alone will be a significant driver in bandwidth demands as games are likely to be 10+ gig a pop. Especially when you consider hdds in the consoles wont be enough to store all purchased games at once so games will be downloaded,played, deleted then redownloaded later when replayed.
sniper007
22-12-2011, 11:06
I joined Virgin when it was NTL in 2002/2003. I started on I believe 256kb/s and always stayed on the mid or bottom tier I think. Over the years it became 256kb > 512kb > 1mb > 2mb > 4mb > 10mb. This took me right up to about 2008 with extremely reliable service. Quite honestly I would say I averaged less than one major outage/issue/problem per year and one of those years was a country wide big issue anyway. Ping/latency was always low. Speeds were rock solid 24/7 for me.
I felt like I was in a minority with the speeds and lack of issues I experienced compared to freinds on ADSL. Life was good. Life was simple. Everything worked. Fast. Reliable. :)
Roll on 2009 and I moved house. Same area, same estate. I decided to move from 10mb up to 20mb. I got moved onto a different UBR/cabinet/area of the network. The problems began. Speeds started to get really bad during peak times. To cut a long story short, I spend about 3 months on this issue with VM and they even sent cowboys round twice to dig up my lawn (badly) and do a repull. They kept saying they needed to monitor the traffic to ensure it falls into the "slow as a dog with no legs" type category figuratively speaking.
They avoided admiting the truth (local over utilisation) which an engineer even told me directly. Literally, he once came to my house to have a look at the problems I was having since it had gone on so long. He turned up, I explained the situation and told him for the sake of him and me, lets not beat around the bush type thing and he admitted straight up that yep it's rubbish on any tier other than 50mb at the moment locally. The only way around it was to move to 50mb as this put me on a different UBR/cabinet or part of the network for some reason at the time. Maybe to do with how it was being rolled out - don't know.
I complained about this having to pay a premium for 50mb just to get a good service so got it heavily discounted. Roll on contract renewal and they tried to get funny saying I was on an invalid retentions deal. I told them to reduce the price to what it was or I will leave and they finally obliged. So I am safe for another 9 months or so. It shouldn't be this much hassle, but I am happy to keep paying what I pay for the overall package I get and the internet (50mb) working really well, whenever I want it, without having to worry about throttling when I want to download more than a few gig during daytime. I love not having to think and calculate usage when downloading anything significant before 9pm. I just want it to stay like this please for now. :)
kwikbreaks
22-12-2011, 11:46
When you moved from 20Mbps to 50Mbps you moved from DOCSIS1 to DOCSIS3. It sounds like your local 1 network was oversubscribed but the 3 network still isn't. If you don't actually need 50Mbps you can call retentions and ask to be downdraded to 10Mbs (retentions because it's easier - they're the only VM calls I ever make) - there will be no penalty for downgrading and you'll still be on the DOCSIS3 network. Eventually of course your DOCSIS 3 network may become borked too.
sniper007
22-12-2011, 12:01
When you moved from 20Mbps to 50Mbps you moved from DOCSIS1 to DOCSIS3. It sounds like your local 1 network was oversubscribed but the 3 network still isn't. If you don't actually need 50Mbps you can call retentions and ask to be downdraded to 10Mbs (retentions because it's easier - they're the only VM calls I ever make) - there will be no penalty for downgrading and you'll still be on the DOCSIS3 network. Eventually of course your DOCSIS 3 network may become borked too.
But initially I had a period of a month or so when I was still on 10mb and even that was bad. At the old house literally a street away it was fine. Sorry for not being too clued up on this all but can someone explain out of interest what the function of the CMTS, UBR and Cabinets are? Are the street cabinets simply access points to "turn on" different houses connections to the network? So a houses cabinet will always stay the same due to the physical connection underground from houses to the cab?
So if I have that right only the UBR can be changed by Virgin?
On that basis, when I moved house my cabinet I know for sure changed. Can a cabinet be over utilised or is this impossible? Should the question be, do cabinets each connect to different UBRs? So it was possible that a cabinet change made me go to a different UBR initially so even 10mb was bad, and 20mb, then when I changed to 50mb the UBR changed again to a different one which was ok?
So in conclusion it's complete pot luck and nothing to do with 50mb necessarily?
All I know is at the moment 50mb works and works fast, always. I'm happy until that changes! :)
kwikbreaks
22-12-2011, 15:37
There's obviously more to it than just this but my way of looking at it (which may be wrong) is...
The small street cabinets are just dumb splitters which join all the individual modem coax cables to one cable which goes on to other cabs and eventually back to what's called the optical node which is another big street box and serves a shedload of modems. That's where the cable RF tech gets converted to (I think) tcp/ip which goes by fibre back to another concentration point housing loads of fibre routers and then on again to VM's major infrastructure connecting to the internet backbone.
In the RF side of things there are RF amps and attenuator banks which are used to make sure the modems get signal levels they can handle and the optical node sees the correct level from the modems without them busting a gut to deliver it but none of that is relevant to congestion.
CMTS/UBR/Optical node are different names for essentially the same thing - the kit that interfaces coax to fibre.
DOCSIS1 and DOCSIS3 are different RF level technologies. Both can be carried on the same coax along with the TV channels. Either or both can be oversubscribed and as I said it sounds like your old docsis 1 was oversubscribed but the docsis3 isn't (yet).
Ignitionnet
22-12-2011, 15:53
CMTS/UBR/Optical node are different names for essentially the same thing - the kit that interfaces coax to fibre.
Hmm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_modem_termination_system
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_fibre-coaxial
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8806/ps5684/ps2209/product_data_sheet09186a00801ed384.html
Not entirely convinced you could say that this:
http://www.leecatv.com/usrimage/sg2000%20lg.jpg
And this:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2011/12/23.jpg
Are essentially the same thing.
One of them fits comfortably into a street cabinet, the other really won't. Check the links above for more info.
kwikbreaks
22-12-2011, 15:58
Thanks for the info and links. They do look tad different for sure...
Jesus all those words in the links are making my head ache - it's going to be a task for another day...
Ignitionnet
22-12-2011, 16:02
The small street cabinets are just dumb splitters which join all the individual modem coax cables to one cable which goes on to other cabs and eventually back to what's called the optical node which is another big street box and serves a shedload of modems. That's where the cable RF tech gets converted to (I think) tcp/ip which goes by fibre back to another concentration point housing loads of fibre routers and then on again to VM's major infrastructure connecting to the internet backbone.
No, it hits the optical node which doesn't have to be a big street cabinet as the node is small, it converts the RF to light, nothing else is done just the conversion to optical transport. The RF is used to modulate a laser transmitter on the upstream and the optical signal is demodulated on the downstream path. Media conversion, nothing more.
The big street cabinets are telco / optical multiplexers.
CMTS/UBR/Optical node are different names for essentially the same thing - the kit that interfaces coax to fibre.
No, the uBR is Cisco's brand name for their CMTS, Motorola refer to theirs as the BSR, and the CMTS is what manages the modems. It's these that package the IP data up in DOCSIS MPEG frames, address it to modems, and put it onto coax and demultiplex the upstream bursts.
Congestion is caused by having too many modems / too much demand on a particular CMTS port. The optical node sizes are very relevant to this as each optical nodal area is a 'broadcast domain' - within a single node the only option is to run more channels.
kwikbreaks
22-12-2011, 16:08
Ah good - that's saved me struggling - so the RF tech actually gets carried by fibre back to the CMTS/UBR and that's where it all gets converted to TCP/IP?
What governs which individual port a modem will be served by - the physical connection or is there something in the config?
Ignitionnet
22-12-2011, 16:18
Ah good - that's saved me struggling - so the RF tech actually gets carried by fibre back to the CMTS/UBR and that's where it all gets converted to TCP/IP?
What governs which individual port a modem will be served by - the physical connection or is there something in the config?
Both. The physical connection governs which ports downstream and upstream a modem can connect to, configuration then decides which ones it does connect to.
That's why the DOCSIS 3 devices don't attach to the DOCSIS 2 network - they lock to it then are pushed by configuration to the DOCSIS 3 network.
horseman
23-12-2011, 05:50
...
Congestion is caused by having too many modems / too much demand on a particular CMTS port. The optical node sizes are very relevant to this as each optical nodal area is a 'broadcast domain' - within a single node the only option is to run more channels.
Which then begs many more increasingly complex questions that attempt to speculate on why VM have some perversely protracted fix times in some areas?
For example:
1. Does Cisco licensing still depend on number of "channels" used per CMTS?
2. The number of "usuable" channels will depend on quality of RF spectrum. This must largely depend on combination of amount of domestic noise injected upstream and also total number of cm's to avoid laser clipping? Originally 10+ yrs ago the DOCSIS RFI spec ,number of street cabs, optical nodes would have been designed on basis of HPPN (homes passed per node) and an estimated "takeup" of say 10/20% subscribers? In some older Victorian/Edwardian built towns/city's (particularly those with higher student populations) 3 story town houses and similar have been progressively converted to self contained flats over the intervening period which appears in some cases to have resulted to congested tap boards and frequent "re-splitting" of original house drops. This must have some deleterious affect on both "noise" and upstream power by effectively increasing the HPPN and/or subscriber "takeup" per node?
3. If current RF spectrum is limited then the traditional approach is to re-segment. Presumably since most (or hopefully all) of the legacy FP lasers are replaced with WDM does this mean just splitting a coax trunk or would this still increase the risk of laser clipping?
3a. Since power for trunk amps/line extenders is injected at optical node this could imply co-requisite upgrades to power supply is also required in some cases from utility company? Interestingly as an aside note, I thought UK used 48v DC for trunk/amps,line extenders not AC?
3b. If dynamic load balancing is also restricted to within same PHY RF segment does this mean that either the FO has to be "uncombined" at CMTS or separate FO blown down to an additional optical node?
4. Presumably 3b is also dependent on the amount of "dark fibre" available again which could vary by area?. If not then "ducting" capacity/limitations could very well imply substantial civil engineering work?
5.Would upgrading to high density linecards increase either the capacity of CM's per channel,the number of channels/upstream ports or both? Again as well as more power efficient I thought these reduced the need to physically re-segment?
Re 2.
In most University cities, the number of students in the type of house you mention has been dropping drastically over the last 5-7 years, as they/their parents prefer them to live in the bespoke student accommodation supplied by Opal, Unite, et al, which has its own dedicated Broadband.
horseman
23-12-2011, 16:28
Re 2.
In most University cities, the number of students in the type of house you mention has been dropping drastically over the last 5-7 years, as they/their parents prefer them to live in the bespoke student accommodation supplied by Opal, Unite, et al, which has its own dedicated Broadband.
Halls of Residence / Campus usually JANET but here in Brighton still plenty (ab)using VM…. ;)
Sephiroth
23-12-2011, 16:30
Re 2.
In most University cities, the number of students in the type of house you mention has been dropping drastically over the last 5-7 years, as they/their parents prefer them to live in the bespoke student accommodation supplied by Opal, Unite, et al, which has its own dedicated Broadband.
Not according to my kids. The student house market is as bouyant as ever.
Chrysalis
23-12-2011, 17:16
not to mention the ever growing trend in cities to convert houses to flats/bedsits which bumps up population density.
Halls of Residence / Campus usually JANET but here in Brighton still plenty (ab)using VM…. ;)Re Unite/Opal/non-Uni owned halls - they are usually independent providers, not JANET/local MAN.
Sephiroth
24-12-2011, 16:51
Re Unite/Opal/non-Uni owned halls - they are usually independent providers, not JANET/local MAN.
So what? The 4 students to a hous market thrives.
Not in Leeds - lots are up for sale.
Sephiroth
24-12-2011, 20:01
Leeds isn't "most university cities".
You're right....;)
Link (http://www.leedsliveitloveit.com/students/why-leeds) Leeds has the second largest student population outside London with a current figure of over 200,000 students
The reasoning behind my original statement was that I am a Board Member of one of the JANET Regional Network Operators, and we have regular discussions with other RNO's and University directors, and they have fed back about the shifts in Student Accomodation from multi-occupancy houses to the Opal/unite/et al model - there is still a large amount of the MOHs, but it is decreasing year on year.
craigj2k12
24-12-2011, 20:38
its still only 1 city, 1 out of 1 cannot be most ;)
Read my update (being expanded whilst you were replying...).
Chrysalis
24-12-2011, 23:44
My city has student accomodation but it only has capacity for a fraction of whatever students will be there at any given point. I be surprised if this glut of empty student properties is nationwide spread and I can check how it is in my city by asking my landlord as he owns a load.
kwikbreaks
25-12-2011, 11:34
No students whatsoever near me and it's still badly congested.
Chrysalis
25-12-2011, 13:09
yeah student areas have it worse but its certianly not the only cause of VM congestion.
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