View Full Version : Why VM get criticised
kwikbreaks
15-10-2011, 09:37
I had pretty positive feelings about VM until...
I moved to 50Mbps from 20Mbps as it was only £5 more and I'd be getting a free gigabit hub so I could move my bulky NAS raid behind the settee with the modem and 100Mbps router and if later I got a connection problem I wouldn't have to pull it all to bits to connect directly to the modem as the VM script demands.
The upgrade was a nightmare and took 3 hubs and a visit from the area supervisor to get running. I was not at all impressed with the technical competence of any of the 3 engineers it took.
Well we all (ok most people) know about the problems with that hub so I was pleased to get a modem back even though I had to shell out for a gigabit router (or move the NAS back to where it was).
I glossed over a no-show to fix an upstream voltage problem.
The main reason I glossed over those problems was because the 50Mbps product delivered a reliable 50Mbps then all of a sudden I find my speeds can be appauling. The TBB monitor looks like my hair used to as a teenager after a night out. I suspect this is probably caused by a single torrent freak as it started very quickly and looks like upstream congestion to me. Why did VM upgrade upstreams and introduce 100Mbps when their local capacity can be keeled over by just a single 100Mbps user?
Things had improved a little but I thought I'd check what upstream channel I was on and see if a reboot would change that. I glanced at the power levels and saw that downstream was about 6dBmV lower that when I'd pasted it into my complain about speed on the community board a couple of days earlier and upstream was 6 higher taking it to an out of spec 58dBmV - exactly where it was before it was fixed last time. A check in the log showed a resync on Thursday about midday. As it happens I'd been home that day and seen what I initially took to be a tramp on the street but as we got closer I saw something that identified him as a Virgin bod so it seems pretty obvious he'd moved my connection for reasons best known to himself.
So - another complain on theVM community board and another wait in for one VM bod to correct the actions of another or maybe the same one although he'll need to tidy himself up if he expects to come in.
Probably moved you down to move someone else up
Chrysalis
15-10-2011, 16:02
I am with you kwikbreaks but there is also a scary thought in my head.
I am thinking why did they release these silly new upload speeds and 100mbit product and wish they didnt. But then facts kick in, if these upload speeds were not released it is very likely I would still be on a single docsis1 9mbit US channel instead of 2 docsis2 18mbit US channels. If I were to compare the service how it was in feb 2011 before the uplift work and how it is now, now is defenitly better even tho its problematic on performance. The problem is I reckon the uplift work that was done should have been done as a matter of congestion relief for the 'old' speeds and nothing more, then further work should have been done for new speeds. Of course VM think different, they cant justify investing in capacity unless they getting something back like new marketable products. The way they see it is the sales are still going up and thats all that matters, the bottom line. Thats why they dont suspend sales in oversubscribed areas as well.
My service before uplift work. It was even worse in jan the month before it but I think between jan and feb they were kicking 10mbit users off back to legacy.
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share-thumb/8b57038b3be59eb0bf76dd5a304ac9e0-05-02-2011.png (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/8b57038b3be59eb0bf76dd5a304ac9e0-05-02-2011.html)
Of course the service between when the uplift work was done and when they actually upgraded the speeds (march to jun 2011) was almost perfect, it was brilliant. Thats what it would be like if the capacity was quadrupled without the speed uplift.
kwikbreaks
15-10-2011, 22:47
Of course if they saved money by not shifting working connections onto a tap that put it out of spec so they than had to move it back they could maybe afford to spend more on infrastructure.
I can't go back to ADSL until they release Infinity here as there is an HR DIS fault that five visits from the terminally useless OpenReach failed to fix despite having claimed to have swapped every section in my line back to the exchange for alternate pairs but I sure as hell can downgrade and if I don't see an improvement in speeds and a swift fix to the upstream then that is exactly what I'll do - I'll pay the absolute minimum I can until I can ditch them entirely.
Chrysalis
15-10-2011, 23:18
Thats whats so sad as well, even a dodgy VM connection completely outclasses a typical ADSL service. The difference is night and day also in the fault service. VM will be well aware of this hence they know they can get away with oversubbing areas and such.
FTTC changes this somewhat but FTTC is still very small coverage.
Or could it be that people have an expectation of an uncontended Business level of service, but are only willing to pay for a contended Consumer service? (be that BT, VM, or whoever).
I pay (in the world) a lot of money for multiple 100Mb and 1Gb links - and I get the appropriate Service and SLAs.
You get what you pay for.....
General Maximus
16-10-2011, 09:01
You get what you pay for.....
I completely agree however VM seem top be in the same mind set as Asda where they think as long as it is cheap enough, nobody will care about quality. If they improved the quality of service, guaranteed minimum speed and little things like UK based call centres to keep everyone happy then I am sure people would be happy to pay a little bit more
I don't think so, most folk are on ten meg and couldn't give a boot about ping times etc.
I don't think so, most folk are on ten meg and couldn't give a boot about ping times etc.
Quite often speed issues on 10Mb are resolved by simply clearing the cache of the browser, nice easy call.
kwikbreaks
16-10-2011, 11:38
I'll see if the cache clearing trick works after my downgrade. It doesn't seem to help much on 50Mbs....
Pre cache clean
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2011/10/34.png
Post cache clean
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2011/10/35.png
11:20 am on a Sunday morning - unacceptable.
---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------
Thats whats so sad as well, even a dodgy VM connection completely outclasses a typical ADSL service.It only outclasses my ADSL line right now because the line has a bad connection somewhere which BTOR failed to locate. I'm fairly close to the exchange and even with the fault it would do 16Mbps but caused the phone to be unusable because of audible noise and my wife gets and makes plenty of calls on the landline. I had O2 as ISP on one of the old unlimited contracts which were exactly that and delivered whatever the line could manage 24x7 for absolute peanuts.
Chrysalis
16-10-2011, 13:49
Or could it be that people have an expectation of an uncontended Business level of service, but are only willing to pay for a contended Consumer service? (be that BT, VM, or whoever).
I pay (in the world) a lot of money for multiple 100Mb and 1Gb links - and I get the appropriate Service and SLAs.
You get what you pay for.....
You can think in black and white if you want.
You saying people either should get a completely uncontended business class service and pay thousands, or expect something congested 24/7 and can be to extreme levels that even simple web browsing isnt useable, nothing in between right?
It is very possible to sell a product that is contended but at the same time not oversold.
---------- Post added at 13:37 ---------- Previous post was at 13:34 ----------
I'll see if the cache clearing trick works after my downgrade. It doesn't seem to help much on 50Mbs....
Pre cache clean
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2011/10/34.png
Post cache clean
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2011/10/35.png
11:20 am on a Sunday morning - unacceptable.
---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 ----------
It only outclasses my ADSL line right now because the line has a bad connection somewhere which BTOR failed to locate. I'm fairly close to the exchange and even with the fault it would do 16Mbps but caused the phone to be unusable because of audible noise and my wife gets and makes plenty of calls on the landline. I had O2 as ISP on one of the old unlimited contracts which were exactly that and delivered whatever the line could manage 24x7 for absolute peanuts.
thats good for you if openreach werent so useless.
A typical adsl line tho is under 6mbit even on adsl2+.
---------- Post added at 13:39 ---------- Previous post was at 13:37 ----------
Quite often speed issues on 10Mb are resolved by simply clearing the cache of the browser, nice easy call.
There is nothing logical on that statement unless somehow someone has actually filled their hdd up completely. It does fit a scripted tech support response tho ;)
---------- Post added at 13:49 ---------- Previous post was at 13:39 ----------
I don't think so, most folk are on ten meg and couldn't give a boot about ping times etc.
Thats mainly due to not understanding what pings are.
Whilst price is probably the prime concern of most people I wont argue with that, they do notice when it slows down. If pings are unstable then thats a major red flag on utilisation which is why geeks monitor it. Both my sisters have complained about their broadband, they not geeks like me, one is a mem to 2 kids, she uses torrents occasionally, her kids use itunes (I think) and possibly other stuff not told to her but she isnt a geek like myself but does know enough to know her connection has slowed down and what kb/sec means roughly (although when I say kbytes or kbits it can confuse her that they different). My other sister also no means a geek has also picked up by herself that her connection isnt what it should be. Neither checking pings but they know enough to check speeds and such. Slowly over time, mainstream people are getting more and more technical. Now since web browsing relies on lots of small packets been sent back and forth it will slow down when upload is congested and latency is unstable, even if downstream has no congestion. Some will not notice, some will notice but not think its the isp at fault, but obviously some people do notice.
Of course what you saying is the service can be dire or good and it all doesnt matter if the customers dont notice and seem happy. Thats akin to selling a car that should have a 1.8L inside it but actually putting a 1.4L in there and its fine if the customer thinks otherwise and hasnt noticed.
There is nothing logical on that statement unless somehow someone has actually filled their hdd up completely. It does fit a scripted tech support response tho ;)
Nothing whatsoever to do with any script apart from that little one in your imagination.
Many people who have little knowledge wonder why their browsing is slow but the speedtests seem fine so they call in, all we do in most cases is get them to empty the cache on the browser and almost by magic the browsing speeds up, you then advise them to periodically clear the cache.
A schoolboy fix but I see that the schoolboys do not think as to why above.:rolleyes:
How to Clear Your Cache(And Why You’d Want To) (http://daol.aol.com/articles/how-to-clear-your-cache/)
Chrysalis
16-10-2011, 15:06
Your response was to slow speedtests from kwikbreaks, not to slow web browsing complaints from him.
Cleaning the cache wont touch the speedtest result.
Cleaning the browser cache is in VMs tech support script, dont try to say it isnt.
Your response was to slow speedtests from kwikbreaks, not to slow web browsing complaints from him.
Cleaning the cache wont touch the speedtest result.
Cleaning the browser cache is in VMs tech support script, dont try to say it isnt.
So you are confusing jb66 with Kwikbreaks, do read who I responded to in the first place.https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2012/11/13.gif
Plus no one but a fool like you would mention scripts but I expect others may think so, if we use scripts I would love to see one.
If you do not follow the concept of clearing the cache then I wonder why you complain incessantly about everything else as it does make you wonder.https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2011/12/4.gif
kwikbreaks
16-10-2011, 17:48
Plus no one but a fool like you...
Another paying customer you're calling a fool. You really are an excellent ambassador for VM aren't you?
Another paying customer you're calling a fool. You really are an excellent ambassador for VM aren't you?
If he wants to tell me that I use a script and answer the wrong post then I will quite rightly call him a fool.
I also take it that you have actually read my signature below and realise this is not an official Virgin Media forum.
Download Failed (1)
http://www.blurgroup.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/I-pity-the-fool.jpg
kwikbreaks
16-10-2011, 18:13
I also read this ...
Masque
Virginmedia Staff Member
... which appears top left of every post you make.
If you care to identify yourself as a Virgin staff member then imo you should conduct yourself with a little more diplomacy. FWIW I've never found clearing a browser cache has ever improved anything at all but of course ymmv.
Anyhow as you yourself admit it is irrelevant to my complaint which is service oversubscription and an engineer who takes it upon himself to fiddle with working connections just to make his current job easier - my guess is that he was missing a splitter or maybe the correct attenuator to connect his current job up properly so instead of getting the part he needed he decided to screw around with mine instead.
I also read this ...
... which appears top left of every post you make.
If you care to identify yourself as a Virgin staff member then imo you should conduct yourself with a little more diplomacy.
I am recognised as a Virgin Media staff member by the team on here but that does not mean that I have to knuckle my forehead to every jumped clown that likes to make snide remarks at every opportunity.
As my comments in these instances are my own as below it has nothing to do with my employer and if you cannot get your head around that then that is your problem not mine.
FWIW I've never found clearing a browser cache has ever improved anything at all but of course ymmv.
As failing to clear the Cache is a quite a common problem and one that strangely enough customers call in with what they think is a slow speeds issue but once it is cleared their slow browsing goes back to normal.
Now I do not care if you have never come across it before as it does happen and we get the calls.
You could have always tried looking yourself as per this LINK (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+should+you+clear+the+cache).
kwikbreaks
16-10-2011, 21:07
I have certainly heard of it. It's just that it never makes any difference to mine when I've tried it. Mostly I've heard of it when people complain they got some script monkey from an ISP whose only suggestion to fix their problems was to clear the browser cache.
Chrysalis
16-10-2011, 21:14
So you are saying no tech support at VM uses scripts masque. [OFF TOPIC]
Also thanks for treating me like a dummy posting a link as if I dont know how to clear the cache, but whats more amusing is that specific link gives reasons for clearing the cache, performance is not listed as a reason.
So you are saying no tech support at VM uses scripts masque.
Also thanks for treating me like a dummy posting a link as if I dont know how to clear the cache, but whats more amusing is that specific link gives reasons for clearing the cache, performance is not listed as a reason.
I have stated many many times that we in the UK do not use scripts as it is impossible to do our job as the are to many variables but possibly you have missed or not even read those posts, now if you have proof to the contrary why not post it, but of course the is no proof is the as it is just an imagined fact.
You did read that the cache remembers previous pages to try and speed up your browsing and that it is recommended to clear it at least quarterly as it may become corrupt and slow you down and that it will improve browsing speeds overall, but if you are computer savvy then realistically you should already know this without the need for it to be pointed out to you.
Please keep it civil and refrain from personal remarks
Kingofthedead4
17-10-2011, 09:36
Please keep it civil and refrain from personal remarks
:clap::clap::clap:
Chrysalis
17-10-2011, 14:54
<removed>
Milambar
17-10-2011, 15:36
I've been using a computer since I left school. I've worked as a sysadmin for a number of companies, cutting my teeth on an old Xenix system.
Thats over 20 years of experience, and I have to admit, that I have never heard of clearing a browser cache to improve performance before. Usually it has a slightly opposite effect, because as you said, it is where it stores frequently accessed files.
There are many many valid reasons for clearing a browser cache, and yes, I too recommend it is cleared as part of a general computer "cleanup" regularly. However, network performance has never been one of the reasons.
I cannot see how a corrupt file would cause slow browsing. If the browser detects a corrupt file, it will just re-download it as part of the normal process. Once detected the corrupt file, it would purge the file (in theory anyway).
I will accept that clearing the cache may improve speeds for some people, although I cannot understand how or why.
I will accept that clearing the cache may improve speeds for some people, although I cannot understand how or why.
It has no effect on speed just browsing nothing more.
Mick Fisher
17-10-2011, 19:03
Just activate the setting that clears your browser cache when you close the browser.
:D
Just activate the setting that clears your browser cache when you close the browser.
:D
I always advise that after we sort it out as it prevents callbacks, it is amazing how such a simple fix can cause so many comments.
Not you by the way as that is sound advice.
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