View Full Version : Dispute over IP address with VOIP service
Hi all,
I raised a complaint with my VOIP provider after they charged me for calls that should have been free. I did my calculations and hadn't exceeded their allowance as below:
"The trader draws our attention to the terms and conditions of the contract where it states that “each customer gets max 300 minutes per week of free calls, measured over the last 7 days and per unique IP address”. The trader goes on to state that the IP address used by you is also used by other of their customers. It seems that your usage combined with the usage of others using the same IP address exceeded the number of free minutes provided in the contract. "
Surely my IP address when assigned to me dynamically by Virginmedia is unique to me and if only me is using this VOIP service under my account then they must be wrong?
Could they be using some kind of loophole with this IP address thing like saying the IP address is this is based on is that of a Virginmedia switch or something?
The IP Address will be that of the VM modem/router - is there anyone else in your house with a device attached to it (wifi or by cable)?
The IP Address will be that of the VM modem/router - is there anyone else in your house with a device attached to it (wifi or by cable)?
Hi Hugh, just me and my girlfriend using it and the calls are made through a DECT phone connected to a SIP device (PAP2) connected to the router. No-one else would have made any calls through any account via my home router/connection and I know that no-one else would have the same IP address..
I'm really intrigued to know what evidence they can provide to suggest someone else is making calls from another account from my IP address. I can only assume they're basing it on another VM address somewhere as the calls couldn't have been made via my network other than the ones that were on my bill. I think they're trying to pull a fast one...
It would have to be one heck of a coincidence to have your IP re-used by another person who is using the same voip provider. Especially if it were to happen in the same week.
It would have to be one heck of a coincidence to have your IP re-used by another person who is using the same voip provider. Especially if it were to happen in the same week.
Thanks Skie, I was thinking that it wouldn't generally be possible to have two machines directly connected to the internet with the same IP address, the same hostname/domain (e.g. Yahoo or Google etc) sure but IP address I'd always assume was totally unique to that internet connected device (server/switch/UBR/modem etc).
MovedGoalPosts
13-10-2011, 17:31
Most IP's are issued dynamically, rather than static.
Dynamic IPs can change. Most are issued for a set period of time, or lease. Dependent on the network configuration that lease can change. If the device remains connected the lease is usually renewed and will retain the same IP. If the device is disconnected and the lease expires then on next connection it might get the same, or a different lease. Dial up type connections inevitably saw many users using similar IPs as those only maintain a connection or lease for the duration of a call. If a lease has expired it can be issued to another device.
You may find that the simple fact that the IP is on a dynamic address pool means that you are excluded from the offer or automatically assumed that it's a shared IP.
Do you know when your IP last changed, just that these figures are crucial for you take to the provider and explain that you are the only person to use that IP
General Maximus
13-10-2011, 22:26
you can look in the modem log for that info fyi or your router depending which one you have got
ferretuk
13-10-2011, 22:28
Firstly, ask the VOIP provider what IP address they believe has made all these calls...
Unfortunately the only way to prove it wasn't you is through VM's logs and they wont give that detail out. As said if you've used the same IP as someone following a renew you've been really unlucky, maybe some re-seg work has taken place? speed uplift, something like that.
qasdfdsaq
14-10-2011, 08:49
You could probably make them give it to you, if you wrangle your way through the DPA.
You could probably make them give it to you, if you wrangle your way through the DPA.
You'd have to trick someone and it could cost them their job ..
Milambar
14-10-2011, 10:18
Unfortunately the only way to prove it wasn't you is through VM's logs and they wont give that detail out. As said if you've used the same IP as someone following a renew you've been really unlucky, maybe some re-seg work has taken place? speed uplift, something like that.
You can make them give it to you, and it won't cost anyone their job. But it will involve enlisting a lawyer,and a judge. Its called a court order.
You'd have to consider if the costs of aquiring a court order to force VM to hand over their logs are worth it though. Also, theres no garuntee a judge would grant the order, although they usually do, if you give them a valid reason for requiring the information.
AbyssUnderground
14-10-2011, 12:14
They're stupid for basing their service on IP address in the first place... An IP does not, never has and never will identify a person.
They're stupid for basing their service on IP address in the first place... An IP does not, never has and never will identify a person.
Well that's not strictly true.. A IP can always be traced back to a user... No matter how many hops they create, if someone has the time resource and technical ability. At the end of the day to get online you need to physically connect somewhere and that location can be found ...
Daveoc64
15-10-2011, 14:42
Well that's not strictly true.. A IP can always be traced back to a user... No matter how many hops they create, if someone has the time resource and technical ability. At the end of the day to get online you need to physically connect somewhere and that location can be found ...
Not if an IP is shared (intentionally or otherwise).
If you have 5 people in your household it's not possible to trace which one of those 5 people did something (e.g accessed a specific site) from just the IP address.
Likewise, if someone hacked into your Wi-Fi network, they could access an illegal site and it would be traced back to your household
Not if an IP is shared (intentionally or otherwise).
If you have 5 people in your household it's not possible to trace which one of those 5 people did something (e.g accessed a specific site) from just the IP address.
Likewise, if someone hacked into your Wi-Fi network, they could access an illegal site and it would be traced back to your household
Ultimately the responsibility for that activity will reside with the account holder of the broadband connection ??
As above account holder to blame ...
ferretuk
15-10-2011, 16:17
To bring this back on topic however, the 'user' in this context is the individual making use of the VOIP service not the account holder with an ISP.
For example, if the OP took his PAP2 to a hotel the IP address that the call appears to come from the WAN address of the hotel internet connection but the user responsible for the phone call is not the hotel... If several users of the same service were staying at the hotel then all the calls would appear to be from the same address and therefore the 300mins would get used up fairly quickly much to the bemusement of the individual customers.
As per AbyssUnderground - Pretty silly for basing their service on IP address rather than login credentials.
---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 15:42 ----------
Hi Hugh, just me and my girlfriend using it and the calls are made through a DECT phone connected to a SIP device (PAP2) connected to the router. No-one else would have made any calls through any account via my home router/connection and I know that no-one else would have the same IP address..
I'm really intrigued to know what evidence they can provide to suggest someone else is making calls from another account from my IP address. I can only assume they're basing it on another VM address somewhere as the calls couldn't have been made via my network other than the ones that were on my bill. I think they're trying to pull a fast one...
Hi tvout
1. Is this a recent problem? You've been using a Betamax provider for some time now?
2. What are your PAP2 NAT settings? Have they changed recently?
3. Do you have an Outbound Proxy setup? Is this a recent change?
As per my reply earlier, what IP address is VOIPCheap saying that you're using?
To bring this back on topic however, the 'user' in this context is the individual making use of the VOIP service not the account holder with an ISP.
It then becomes the responsibility of the hotel/bar whatever to provide the details of who used the service, which again would allow them to be traced.
There are very few, if any completely open wi-fi spots and you'll probably find that the CCTV in the area would be enough to find the person .. big brother is watching:td:
ferretuk
15-10-2011, 22:48
It then becomes the responsibility of the hotel/bar whatever to provide the details of who used the service, which again would allow them to be traced.
There are very few, if any completely open wi-fi spots and you'll probably find that the CCTV in the area would be enough to find the person .. big brother is watching:td:
Did you actually *read* any of what I wrote?
Did you actually *read* any of what I wrote?
I quoted the wrong bit ...
ferretuk
16-10-2011, 09:19
I quoted the wrong bit ...
...which you didn't actually read!
Daveoc64
17-10-2011, 14:57
As above account holder to blame ...
"To blame" for what!? Using a service legally?
You have jumped in to the thread and replied out of context.
An IP address DOES NOT identify a user.
This is a fact.
You can pin any wrongdoing on the account holder, but that doesn't change the fact that the IP does not identify the user.
In this subject of this thread there is no illegal or unauthorised activity, so there isn't even anything to actually blame the account holder for!
"To blame" for what!? Using a service legally?
You have jumped in to the thread and replied out of context.
An IP address DOES NOT identify a user.
This is a fact.
You can pin any wrongdoing on the account holder, but that doesn't change the fact that the IP does not identify the user.
In this subject of this thread there is no illegal or unauthorised activity, so there isn't even anything to actually blame the account holder for!
Ahh an anti staff poster .. Have another read .. My reply was to advise that unfortunately proving to the company it wasn't him will be difficult, I then took lead from other posters in my replies... Seeing my title has clearly annoyed you.. Care to explain why ?
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