View Full Version : Ugly exterior cable installation
Our block of flats was the only one on our street not connected to Virgin fibre optic, so we requested a communal connection.
18 months later the work has just been completed, but the final cabling was done while I was on holiday (and no, I didn't know when they were doing the work, they just turn up randomly).
The problem is, our building is an attractive Georgian mansion, painted white, converted into flats, and all the cables are black. They run up the front of the building and horizontally across the front, sides and rear. Added to this, to the side of a window ledge to each flat is a large coil of black wire, 6 inches in diameter, which I assume is excess wiring that would run into the flat should anyone sign up to Virgin.
It looks horrendous. Do they not have white cables? Has no-one ever complained before about thick black cables running all over the outside of the building?
Plus, we're in a conservation area, so I supect we're breaking some kind of law or bylaw. Even if we're not, it look terrible..
The other residents agree and want it removed or replaced with white cables.
I called customer support and got some confused bloke in India who said he'd pass my number to the installation team. I'm waiting to hear back from them. I intend to ask for either white cables or for it to be removed.
I'd be interested in anyone else's opinion or advice on this. Is this normal installation practice?!
Oh and in the meantime, BT Infinity has arrived in our street, which is cheaper and hopefully can just be run to my ground floor flat without destroying the image of the building.
Thanks.
Tim Deegan
20-09-2011, 15:56
I'm afraid they are well known for this. Even when connecting to houses they leave the cables onthe surface half the time.
Blacks the normal, have a look at other flats
Thanks for your replies.
By "normal" do you mean black is the only colour they have?
I would've thought it more normal to apply common sense and use white cabling against a white building.
And what about the icing on the cake... le piece de resistance.. le coup de maître: the 8 black coils of thick wire adjacent to each window ledge?
I can only order black siameese and the coils are there ready to be hooked up, again normal
weesteev
20-09-2011, 16:21
Your building was pre-wired by the sounds of it. The coiled cable will be because the contractors couldnt drill every apartment and will leave that to the install teams that come to connect customers.
Unfortunately there is no white cable, external cable is black but theres nothing stopping the cable being painted.
Want to drop me the details of your building and I will pass this on to the local field team to look at again?
jb66,
As someone not working in, or familiar with, the cable installation business, I was not aware of this normality. And my crystal ball is broken so I failed to predict it.
Perhaps it would've been more professional of Virgin to point out the unavailibility of white cable prior to ruining the appearance of our building, and now creating a situation where it's all going to have to be removed?
Whereas I haven't come across this situation before, I assume Virgin would have.
On the plus side, no-one here has subscribed to Virgin yet so it's not our time and money being wasted.
---------- Post added at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:23 ----------
Your building was pre-wired by the sounds of it. The coiled cable will be because the contractors couldnt drill every apartment and will leave that to the install teams that come to connect customers.
Unfortunately there is no white cable, external cable is black but theres nothing stopping the cable being painted.
Want to drop me the details of your building and I will pass this on to the local field team to look at again?
Yes please, thanks. I'll PM you if that's possible on here.
P.S re painting the cable white: the cabling is very high in places, inaccessible to anyone without ladders and safety equipment, or scaffolding.
Tim Deegan
20-09-2011, 16:26
As someone not working in, or familiar with, the cable installation business, I was not aware of this normality. And my crystal ball is broken so I failed to predict it.
Perhaps it would've been more professional of Virgin to point out the unavailibility of white cable prior to ruining the appearance of our building, and now creating a situation where it's all going to have to be removed?
Whereas I haven't come across this situation before, I assume Virgin would have.
On the plus side, no-one here has subscribed to Virgin yet so it's not our time and money being wasted.
---------- Post added at 15:25 ---------- Previous post was at 15:23 ----------
Yes please, thanks. I'll PM you if that's possible on here.
I'm sure that if you had asked what colour cable they used then they would have told you that it was black.
All you need to do is paint over it.
I'm sure that if you had asked what colour cable they used then they would have told you that it was black.
All you need to do is paint over it.
I didn't know to ask.
Plus I didn't realise the whole building would be wired. I thought they'd just extend the fibre optic to a box in our front garden, and then anyone subscribing would be wired up thereafter.
I'm a customer, not an expert, so it would've been nice if Virgin had discussed these matters with me and fully explained what installation involves.
And like I said, we can't paint the cables without paying someone to do it. it's a 4-storey building. I'm not sure how Virgin got that high up but a lot of painters won't go that high without some kind of scaffolding = £££
Tim Deegan
20-09-2011, 17:06
I didn't know to ask.
Plus I didn't realise the whole building would be wired. I thought they'd just extend the fibre optic to a box in our front garden, and then anyone subscribing would be wired up thereafter.
I'm a customer, not an expert, so it would've been nice if Virgin had discussed these matters with me and fully explained what installation involves.
And like I said, we can't paint the cables without paying someone to do it. it's a 4-storey building. I'm not sure how Virgin got that high up but a lot of painters won't go that high without some kind of scaffolding = £££
Well to be honest it's not really Virgin's fault. You can't expect them to have all different colours of cable for different houses. From what I understand it's the black cable that us the most UV resistant. They actually use white cable inside your property. If it was going to cause any problems with the appearance of the building, then you should have brought up these concerns with Virgin. After all they don't have a crystal ball either.
It's just the same as I'm in the bed trade, and if someone has a very narrow staircase with a low ceiling, and they want to buy a superking size mattress, then they need to ask us if it is likely to be a problem. After all we don't know anything about their house.
Well to be honest it's not really Virgin's fault. You can't expect them to have all different colours of cable for different houses. From what I understand it's the black cable that us the most UV resistant. They actually use white cable inside your property. If it was going to cause any problems with the appearance of the building, then you should have brought up these concerns with Virgin. After all they don't have a crystal ball either.
It's just the same as I'm in the bed trade, and if someone has a very narrow staircase with a low ceiling, and they want to buy a superking size mattress, then they need to ask us if it is likely to be a problem. After all we don't know anything about their house.
I'm not demanding cables in all the colours of the rainbow :)
Just white as well as black.
Besides, like I said: I didn't realise the whole building would be wired. I thought they'd just extend the fibre optic to a box in our front garden, and then anyone subscribing would be wired up thereafter.
I'm a customer, not an expert, so it would've been nice if Virgin had discussed these matters with me and fully explained what installation involves.
Virgin Media should anticipate these problems because it is their business.
My friend installs sliding doors and one of his customers wanted a grey one. My friend looked at the block and saw that all the other doors and windows were white and advised the customer to check the covenants of the building. Turned out, all the doors had to be white.
So my friend, using his expertise, advised the customer, and the correct solution was arrived at.
According to your logic, if my mate worked for Virgin Doors, or whatever, he could've just stuck in the grey doors and if the customer complained, said: "I don't have a crystal ball.. paint it white" lol.
It's their business to anticipate these things!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tim Deegan
20-09-2011, 19:20
I'm not demanding cables in all the colours of the rainbow :)
Just white as well as black.
Besides, like I said: I didn't realise the whole building would be wired. I thought they'd just extend the fibre optic to a box in our front garden, and then anyone subscribing would be wired up thereafter.
I'm a customer, not an expert, so it would've been nice if Virgin had discussed these matters with me and fully explained what installation involves.
Virgin Media should anticipate these problems because it is their business.
My friend installs sliding doors and one of his customers wanted a grey one. My friend looked at the block and saw that all the other doors and windows were white and advised the customer to check the covenants of the building. Turned out, all the doors had to be white.
So my friend, using his expertise, advised the customer, and the correct solution was arrived at.
According to your logic, if my mate worked for Virgin Doors, or whatever, he could've just stuck in the grey doors and if the customer complained, said: "I don't have a crystal ball.. paint it white" lol.
It's their business to anticipate these things!!!!!!!!!!!!
All houses and customers are different, so they can't anticipate every possible scenario. You know your scenario, so it is up to you to ask.
If you were ordering a door, then you would specify the colour. It's not up to the company to guess.
I'm afraid this is all down to you not asking enough questions, but you are trying to blame someone else.
All houses and customers are different, so they can't anticipate every possible scenario. You know your scenario, so it is up to you to ask.
If you were ordering a door, then you would specify the colour. It's not up to the company to guess.
I'm afraid this is all down to you not asking enough questions, but you are trying to blame someone else.
Someone needs to go back to business school.
Nedkelly
20-09-2011, 20:40
Black is used as it does not rot like white cable does after it been in the sun after a while .I take it all the cables run in the same direction and it looks neatish .If they put a box in the garden or on the wall and everytime someone wants cable they run a cable from this box to the house each installer would run it a different way and it would look awfull seen this before .What we have done here a long time ago we used capping / trunking on the outside of the flats .This can be bought in differet colours .This is how we did the mdus in this area to keep the council happy :)
Someone needs to go back to business school.
Someone forgot his own question.....
I'd be interested in anyone else's opinion or advice on this. Is this normal installation practice?!
End result: either Virgin or ourselves take down the black cabling. If anyone here wants fibre optic, we'll subscribe to BT Infinity.
Welshchris
21-09-2011, 01:55
and then BT will run Black cables also if need be.
As has been pointed out, the reason for black is because black cables are UV resistant it is not black for aesthetic reasons.
If white was used, it would become brittle, discolour and be suseptible to failure through degredation.
there is no other way for VM to install this cable other than to clip it to walls.. cables strictly speaking arent allowed inside cavity walls, engineers arent supposed to be climbing in roof spaces due to health and safety, and its impractical to expect them to start chasing out walls in the alotted amount of time they have... not to mention that if they did it would then need repairing and making good after. Nor can they mess about lifting floorboards.
So how else do you propose they install these cables? other than clipping it to walls, and if they used white cable, which isnt as UV resistant.. would you be happy to pick up the bill for replacing it every couple of years, or accept an increase in monthly subscriptions to cover the white cable replacement every time it fails. Also im sure many customers would be quick to complain to VM when their services fail, even though it would of been their choice to take the risk and use white cable... using black is good business sense as it is longer lasting.
The only way around this issue, is either to paint it white, cap it in some way as mentioned... or chase out the walls yourself and bury the cable.
BT also use black cables as mentioned, for the same reasons.. and most aerial installers should also be using black outside.
I certainly would not be abandoning VM for BT Infinity, for all VMs flaws, at least "generally" their broadband speeds are acceptably need to what they are selling it to be.
BT infinity, they tried to sell me that one.. kept saying oh you can get 40mbit with BT infinity.. then they did a speed check and told me id only recieve half.. 20mbit, and so far VM seem to be 1 step ahead... BT release 40mbit, VM release 100mbit, BT planning 80mbit in 2012... VM rumour has it are planning 200mbit.
Also may I quote,
Our block of flats was the only one on our street not connected to Virgin fibre optic, so we requested a communal connection.
the fact you requested it, can be deemed acceptance.
As you must of had some idea how it is installed... just about every other home on VMs network is cabled in the same way, black cable, although they do try to hide it where possible, and also, during the time it was being installed, in all fairness other people was in the building and could of said something to the people installing it, rather than sit there ignorantly and idley letting them get on with it and wait until they was finished... if somebody else brought that to the installers attention while it was being installed, maybe they could of found a different route for it or done it in a more acceptable manner...Certainly when I had an extra V+ box shoved in, the engineer did not object to me telling him I wanted the cable installed a certain way... namely outside, rather than drilling through a wall into the next bedroom.
If you remove the cables yourself, it can be deemed as criminal damage. As they are property of Virgin Media
Also, technically no matter how BT sell infinity it is not fibre optic, nor is VM.. although VM is probably more fibre optic than BT.
BT Infinity, is fibre optic to the cabinet.. but from the cabinet on the broadband is still delivered down the same cable as your telephone.. so its technically VDSL... whereby DSL is delivered from the cabinet rather than the exchange.. but at the end of the day its still via a phone line.
Whereas VM, the phone line and the data transport cable for your TV and Internet are kept separately, and because VM use RG6 / RG11 for the TV and broadband which is a lot thicker copper wire than bog standard telephone lines not only does it have a lesser resistance, but lower signal loss and degradation.. and due to the shielding less interference technically as well... and VM, also have multiple cabinets/pits near to the home which are amplified along the cabke run so the final run to the home is kept to a minimal amount.
Whereas BT might only have a single cabinet which is quite some distance away,,, like here, the BT cabinet is all the way down the other end of the road, then because it is delivered via the telephone lines it still suffers from the same ADSL problem slower speeds the further you are away... albeit the cabinet is nearer than the exchange so the drop in speed is less.. however it is still there as is evident when they try to sell me 40mbit bt infinity and tell me I can only get 20mbit still.
So really VM is still a more superior network.
Only problem VM have though, is that they dont have the finances available that BT have, so in many areas they are over utilised causing problems but they dont have the money to keep upgrading as much as they would like.
As has been pointed out, the reason for black is because black cables are UV resistant it is not black for aesthetic reasons.
If white was used, it would become brittle, discolour and be suseptible to failure through degredation.
there is no other way for VM to install this cable other than to clip it to walls.. cables strictly speaking arent allowed inside cavity walls, engineers arent supposed to be climbing in roof spaces due to health and safety, and its impractical to expect them to start chasing out walls in the alotted amount of time they have... not to mention that if they did it would then need repairing and making good after. Nor can they mess about lifting floorboards.
So how else do you propose they install these cables? other than clipping it to walls, and if they used white cable, which isnt as UV resistant.. would you be happy to pick up the bill for replacing it every couple of years, or accept an increase in monthly subscriptions to cover the white cable replacement every time it fails. Also im sure many customers would be quick to complain to VM when their services fail, even though it would of been their choice to take the risk and use white cable... using black is good business sense as it is longer lasting.
The only way around this issue, is either to paint it white, cap it in some way as mentioned... or chase out the walls yourself and bury the cable.
BT also use black cables as mentioned, for the same reasons.. and most aerial installers should also be using black outside.
I certainly would not be abandoning VM for BT Infinity, for all VMs flaws, at least "generally" their broadband speeds are acceptably need to what they are selling it to be.
BT infinity, they tried to sell me that one.. kept saying oh you can get 40mbit with BT infinity.. then they did a speed check and told me id only recieve half.. 20mbit, and so far VM seem to be 1 step ahead... BT release 40mbit, VM release 100mbit, BT planning 80mbit in 2012... VM rumour has it are planning 200mbit.
Also may I quote,
the fact you requested it, can be deemed acceptance.
As you must of had some idea how it is installed... just about every other home on VMs network is cabled in the same way, black cable, although they do try to hide it where possible, and also, during the time it was being installed, in all fairness other people was in the building and could of said something to the people installing it, rather than sit there ignorantly and idley letting them get on with it and wait until they was finished... if somebody else brought that to the installers attention while it was being installed, maybe they could of found a different route for it or done it in a more acceptable manner...Certainly when I had an extra V+ box shoved in, the engineer did not object to me telling him I wanted the cable installed a certain way... namely outside, rather than drilling through a wall into the next bedroom.
If you remove the cables yourself, it can be deemed as criminal damage. As they are property of Virgin Media
Also, technically no matter how BT sell infinity it is not fibre optic, nor is VM.. although VM is probably more fibre optic than BT.
BT Infinity, is fibre optic to the cabinet.. but from the cabinet on the broadband is still delivered down the same cable as your telephone.. so its technically VDSL... whereby DSL is delivered from the cabinet rather than the exchange.. but at the end of the day its still via a phone line.
Whereas VM, the phone line and the data transport cable for your TV and Internet are kept separately, and because VM use RG6 / RG11 for the TV and broadband which is a lot thicker copper wire than bog standard telephone lines not only does it have a lesser resistance, but lower signal loss and degradation.. and due to the shielding less interference technically as well... and VM, also have multiple cabinets/pits near to the home which are amplified along the cabke run so the final run to the home is kept to a minimal amount.
Whereas BT might only have a single cabinet which is quite some distance away,,, like here, the BT cabinet is all the way down the other end of the road, then because it is delivered via the telephone lines it still suffers from the same ADSL problem slower speeds the further you are away... albeit the cabinet is nearer than the exchange so the drop in speed is less.. however it is still there as is evident when they try to sell me 40mbit bt infinity and tell me I can only get 20mbit still.
So really VM is still a more superior network.
Only problem VM have though, is that they dont have the finances available that BT have, so in many areas they are over utilised causing problems but they dont have the money to keep upgrading as much as they would like.
Like I said. I wasn't aware that Virgin only used black cables. I foolishly assumed some kind of asthetic installation standard would be adhered to. My bad.
Perhaps Virgin should consider issuing some kind of standard information letter or email to potential customers of large blocks of flats explaining that black cabling will be used, and that 6 inch coils of wire will be pinned next to the window ledge of each flat.
To answer your other point: I don't believe anyone was around when the installation was done - everybody here works full time and I was on holiday. And no notice was given about when the installation was going to be done.
Thanks for the info tho. But with BT Infinity - if they already use the phone line from the box to the building, then what extra need would there be to install cables around the outside of the building?
If I understand correctly - it's fibre optic to the box and then the existing phone line to the building.
As for taking down the Virgin cables - no damage or cutting would need doing. We could just pull it down and bunch it up in the bushes in the front garden. It'd still be connected to the street line and not damaged in any way.
I accept that Virgin is better than BT Infinity, but I can't begin to describe how bad it looks. Painting the cables white would be expensive as it's a 4 storey building and access is difficult.
---------- Post added at 12:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------
Someone forgot his own question.....
True, this is what I first asked but the discussion has transmogrified, as discussions are wont to do :)
Like I said. I wasn't aware that Virgin only used black cables. I foolishly assumed some kind of asthetic installation standard would be adhered to. My bad.
Perhaps Virgin should consider issuing some kind of standard information letter or email to potential customers of large blocks of flats explaining that black cabling will be used, and that 6 inch coils of wire will be pinned next to the window ledge of each flat.
To answer your other point: I don't believe anyone was around when the installation was done - everybody here works full time and I was on holiday. And no notice was given about when the installation was going to be done.
Thanks for the info tho. But with BT Infinity - if they already use the phone line from the box to the building, then what extra need would there be to install cables around the outside of the building?
If I understand correctly - it's fibre optic to the box and then the existing phone line to the building.
As for taking down the Virgin cables - no damage or cutting would need doing. We could just pull it down and bunch it up in the bushes in the front garden. It'd still be connected to the street line and not damaged in any way.
I accept that Virgin is better than BT Infinity, but I can't begin to describe how bad it looks. Painting the cables white would be expensive as it's a 4 storey building and access is difficult.
---------- Post added at 12:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 ----------
True, this is what I first asked but the discussion has transmogrified, as discussions are wont to do :)
The extra need for the extra cable is that having it separate from the phone line delivers a superior service. Only reason BT are sticking to using the telphone lines and using VDSL is for cost reasons... easier for them to shove it down a phone line than install a separate data cable to the home.
Thats the difference between BT and VM, BT seem to be sticking with DSL, just finding ways to deliver it "better" and 1 such way has been to deliver it from the cabinet rather than the exchange.. but none the less it still suffers the same problem speed loss over distance and is effected by the quality of the line.
Whereas VM use coax, which is more network orientated anyway as some computer networks before CAT5 etc were used, were actually interconnected via Coax, so Coax has always been a data network infrastructure and is a network in the truer sense than DSL making it superiour.. and like I said it is less prone to interference, the signal strength is higher.. namely because the copper core of a coax cable is bigger than the strands of a telephone cable.. and VM also amplify the signal along the cable run in their pits and cabinets so the final drop length to the home is usually minimal.
I know to you it doesnt seem like criminal damage, but I doubt VM would be happy about you unclipping it as that cable probably wont be re-used.. and also, who will pick up the costs if 1 person decides they want it again and you have removed it all?
The extra need for the extra cable is that having it separate from the phone line delivers a superior service. Only reason BT are sticking to using the telphone lines and using VDSL is for cost reasons... easier for them to shove it down a phone line than install a separate data cable to the home.
Thats the difference between BT and VM, BT seem to be sticking with DSL, just finding ways to deliver it "better" and 1 such way has been to deliver it from the cabinet rather than the exchange.. but none the less it still suffers the same problem speed loss over distance and is effected by the quality of the line.
Whereas VM use coax, which is more network orientated anyway as some computer networks before CAT5 etc were used, were actually interconnected via Coax, so Coax has always been a data network infrastructure and is a network in the truer sense than DSL making it superiour.. and like I said it is less prone to interference, the signal strength is higher.. namely because the copper core of a coax cable is bigger than the strands of a telephone cable.. and VM also amplify the signal along the cable run in their pits and cabinets so the final drop length to the home is usually minimal.
I know to you it doesnt seem like criminal damage, but I doubt VM would be happy about you unclipping it as that cable probably wont be re-used.. and also, who will pick up the costs if 1 person decides they want it again and you have removed it all?
Easy enough - we have a residents meeting and agree that if a broadband company only uses black cables that track around the building then nobody is allowed to use that company. As freeholders we are able to make that rule.
Then tidily and without causing criminal damage we roll back all the black cables and leave them neatly in the bushes. Virgin can do what they want with it thereafter.
White cable does exist doesn't it? Sky use it all the time.
Does everyone on here work for Virgin or something?
White cable does exist doesn't it? Sky use it all the time.
It's been repeated time and time again why white cable isn't used externally.
That sky sometimes use it is because their installers are generally independent contractors, and they'll do anything the customer wants for an easy life, with no regard for the continuing operation of the service. In fact it's in their interest for your installation to develop an issue, as then you get to pay them again to fix it when the cable degrades.
Does everyone on here work for Virgin or something?
No - but several of our regular posters do, and offer advice on here in their spare time. They know and care what they're talking about and therefore are worth listening to. ;)
Ok thank you... I get it! Black cabling better than white. Sadly black cabling is incompatible with large white Georgian blocks of flats so it's adios to Virgin and hello BT Infinity. Bit of a shame that all the work the installers has done has gone to waste, but they still get paid.
I still think that someone in the Virgin management chain should give explicit warnings before installing black cabling all over the outside of a white building in a conservation area. After all, it's their time, equipment and money they've wasted on this occasion.
If I was vm and a customer asked for that cable to be installed then you proceeded to unclip it and roll it in the bushes I would charge you every penny for the cable.. Cable costs money, and if you aren't going to take up services it's existing customers like me with my 1400+ a year bill picking up the bill... you all REQUESTED they install it, that cable probably won't be reused again even if vm take it away, nobody there objected to the installation while it was being put in so i don't see how it is vm fault, sky use White but the shouldn't be! And you are damn lucky vm even cabled you up there are thousands of people who would give anything to be cabled up but vm won't do it for cost reasons or it being unfeasible in terms of return on investment... Then you was lucky enough to get cabled up and you wanna rip it out?
---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:55 PM ----------
Simple answer would just be to paint over it or get it re-routed by vm if it can be they will be obliging to do that instead of kicking off about it
Ok thank you... I get it! Black cabling better than white. Sadly black cabling is incompatible with large white Georgian blocks of flats so it's adios to Virgin and hello BT Infinity. Bit of a shame that all the work the installers has done has gone to waste, but they still get paid.
I still think that someone in the Virgin management chain should give explicit warnings before installing black cabling all over the outside of a white building in a conservation area. After all, it's their time, equipment and money they've wasted on this occasion.
When exactly should this warning be given?
When you phone up to arrange it without stating that your building is white and in a conservation area?
Or after they've turned up to install it and see it's a white building, and when, by your own admission, no one was in the building?
VM are not psychic, they don't have a database of white buildings. This was something you should have sorted out, as you're the one that knows your building has special requirements.
When exactly should this warning be given?
When you phone up to arrange it without stating that your building is white and in a conservation area?
Or after they've turned up to install it and see it's a white building, and when, by your own admission, no one was in the building?
VM are not psychic, they don't have a database of white buildings. This was something you should have sorted out, as you're the one that knows your building has special requirements.
The building was surveyed several months before the installation, and they took photographs. So they would have known it was a white building and had ample time and opportunity to inform us that black cabling would criss cross the outside.
No need for them to be psychic.
The thing is, as customers we have been left in a position where we are contemplating removing all the cables. How is this efficient business practice by Virgin? ie: their own interests have not been served.
If they warned us, we would have said "oh ok well in that case we cannot have the cables, thanks anyway, cheerio" etc.
I'm surprised that VM don't have procedures in place to avoid wasting their money.
And, like I've said about 5 times, I did not know Virgin only used black cable. How can I know that? I'm not one of you guys who does this every day for a living or work in the business and have prior knowledge about these matters.
Anyway, I haven't spoken to anybody at VM yet... they're getting back to me, so hopefully something can be worked out.
Tim Deegan
21-09-2011, 17:35
End result: either Virgin or ourselves take down the black cabling. If anyone here wants fibre optic, we'll subscribe to BT Infinity.
Are you speaking on behalf of all the residents, or just yourself?
Have you asked the same questions to BT that you should have asked Virgin?
---------- Post added at 17:25 ---------- Previous post was at 17:12 ----------
Like I said. I wasn't aware that Virgin only used black cables. I foolishly assumed some kind of asthetic installation standard would be adhered to.
So you are now admitting that you "foolishly assumed". So in fact that means that is was your fault for assuming.
You also said that yours was the only block in the road to not have Virgin. So wouldn'y it have made sense to have a look at the other blocks rather than just assimg that Virgin would have to cover every possible eventuality, just because some people "foolishly assume".
---------- Post added at 17:29 ---------- Previous post was at 17:25 ----------
Does everyone on here work for Virgin or something?
No, most of us don't. But we can all see that you are trying to push the blame onto Virgin, because you got it wrong, and "foolishly assumed".
---------- Post added at 17:33 ---------- Previous post was at 17:29 ----------
When exactly should this warning be given?
When you phone up to arrange it without stating that your building is white and in a conservation area?
Or after they've turned up to install it and see it's a white building, and when, by your own admission, no one was in the building?
VM are not psychic, they don't have a database of white buildings. This was something you should have sorted out, as you're the one that knows your building has special requirements.
I'd give up. Kizza is never going to admit that it is their fault, because they "foolishly assumed"
---------- Post added at 17:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------
I'm surprised that VM don't have procedures in place to avoid wasting their money.
That would be easy. They can charge you for the install if you now decide they have wasted their time.
That would be easy. They can charge you for the install if you now decide they have wasted their time.
Fortunately consumer rights have moved on since the 1970s!
And when I said "foolishly assumed" I was being ironic.
Tim Deegan
21-09-2011, 18:08
Fortunately consumer rights have moved on since the 1970s!
And when I said "foolishly assumed" I was being ironic.
So you think it is right that you asked them to install the cables at a huge expense, and then change your mind? It's because of people like you that many companies are having financial difficulties. Someone has to pay for the install. So do you think that all the existing Virgin customers should pay because you didn't check first?
No you weren't being ironic, you were correct.
qasdfdsaq
21-09-2011, 21:32
If the proposed solution is to paint the cables white then there's absolutely nothing to prevent them having used white cables to begin with. If you can paint it on the wall you can paint it at the damn factory.
I agree with the OP here. Whoever did the business at VM didn't have half a brain or even bother thinking. Doesn't really take a genius to figure out... Hmm, conservation area. Illegal to modify appearance of building without planning permission. White building. Cable in hand. Not white. Hmm maybe we should... nah NEVER MIND!
As specifically stated, they took pictures of and surveyed the damn thing. It's not asking much to assume people who took photos of something must have LOOKED AT IT. No need to be psychic.
VM got to see the building before install. The OP did not get to see the cable or plans before install. Who's the one needs to be psychic here?
The White internal cables go a horrible yellow Color if used on outside over time, also there is no White Siamese cable.
?
qasdfdsaq
21-09-2011, 21:42
UV resistant paint my friend. If the technology exists to cover a building in white stuff that doesn't go yellow, the technology exists to cover a cable in white stuff that does not go yellow. The only question is whether VM bother paying someone to do it for them at the factory or whether they expect (potential) customers to do it for them at their own expense. But that's not what we're debating here.
The point is nobody at VM seemed to have applied two brain cells to realise black != white.
The vans aren't big enough to carry both. I'm guessing siameese cable is a virgin made to order cable, I imagine if virgin wanted just one reel of White the cost would be high, also if a drop needed replaced there would be no White to replace it with
UV resistant paint my friend. If the technology exists to cover a building in white stuff that doesn't go yellow, the technology exists to cover a cable in white stuff that does not go yellow. The only question is whether VM bother paying someone to do it for them at the factory or whether they expect (potential) customers to do it for them at their own expense. But that's not what we're debating here.
The point is nobody at VM seemed to have applied two brain cells to realise black != white.
the cables arent painted, it is the plastic that is black.. and even if you overpaint black cables, it is still different to white.
because the cable underneath is still black, and still protected.
so even if the paint is breached or degrades the cable underneath is still protected.
Even if you have white and black cable with the same forumulation of plastic, it is the fact that white is more sensitive to UV than black, that causes the discolouration.. and if you start shoving chamicals and things into the plastic to make it resiliant then it changes the properties of it because it is a polymer.. might become less flexible, tougher or prone to cracking or splitting.
but you cant just paint black cables white... easy to paint a cable once it is in place.
but pre-paint a cable.. then shove it on a reel, then unwind it for installation and then flex it again once in place to clip it in place.. and most of the paint will have cracked or peeled off... paint doesnt lend itself to being resistant to flexing or movements very well.
Tim Deegan
21-09-2011, 23:10
UV resistant paint my friend. If the technology exists to cover a building in white stuff that doesn't go yellow, the technology exists to cover a cable in white stuff that does not go yellow. The only question is whether VM bother paying someone to do it for them at the factory or whether they expect (potential) customers to do it for them at their own expense. But that's not what we're debating here.
The point is nobody at VM seemed to have applied two brain cells to realise black != white.
You really don't know much about cables and paint do you?
They don't paint cables to make them different colours you know.
---------- Post added at 23:10 ---------- Previous post was at 23:07 ----------
The White internal cables go a horrible yellow Color if used on outside over time, also there is no White Siamese cable.
?
And they also start to go brittle and crack, causing broken insulation, and the need to replace the cable at the customers cost. I wonder how many people would be complaining to VM when that happened.
qasdfdsaq
21-09-2011, 23:16
You really don't know much about cables and paint do you?
They don't paint cables to make them different colours you know.
You don't really know much about basic logic and common sense do you? If they can paint cables, they can paint cables. Seems like some people here are suffering from the same boxed in thinking as VM...
Tim Deegan
21-09-2011, 23:18
Bigotry much? VM "aren't psychic" but you're expecting the OP to be?
External cable is black...end of story.
The OP said that theirs was the only block in the road not to have VM, so they must have seen other properties. Also if it was such a big issue for the OP, then it is up to them to ask the questions. I mean how else do they expect VM to route the cables?
It's quite simple, you ask questions about any product or service before you buy.
Last few posts removed, both of you behave.
Griz_Manchester
22-09-2011, 11:09
I think a photgraph of the installation would be useful to see exactly what is being discussed. I notice that somebody suggested this several posts back. So why hasn't it been done?
raging bull
22-09-2011, 14:38
Local property (white pebbledash), black cables have been painted with exterior paint.
Looks that owner had similar problems with appearance.
Tim Deegan
22-09-2011, 18:41
Local property (white pebbledash), black cables have been painted with exterior paint.
Looks that owner had similar problems with appearance.
Well that is the usual answer. But the OP didn't like the idea because the building has 4 storeys, and a scaffolding would be expensive. But it wouldn't need the expense of a scaffolding, because the painter coild use a cherry picker (which I should think is what VM used).
I agree with the OP here. Whoever did the business at VM didn't have half a brain or even bother thinking. Doesn't really take a genius to figure out... Hmm, conservation area. Illegal to modify appearance of building without planning permission. White building. Cable in hand. Not white. Hmm maybe we should... nah NEVER MIND!
As specifically stated, they took pictures of and surveyed the damn thing. It's not asking much to assume people who took photos of something must have LOOKED AT IT. No need to be psychic.
VM got to see the building before install. The OP did not get to see the cable or plans before install. Who's the one needs to be psychic here?
it would have been stated in the site survey that black cable would have been ran and this would have been okayed for the planning permission to been given. So surely the OP should have asked questions during the site survey.
How is this VM's fault. Someone most hold a freelance of ownership on the building you should be taking this up with them as they would have agreed to the work bein carried out and would have overseen everything!
So obviously the planning permission was agreed for black cable to be ran.
You don't really know much about basic logic and common sense do you? If they can paint cables, they can paint cables. Seems like some people here are suffering from the same boxed in thinking as VM...
I work with painted pvcu all the time ,do you have any idea of how hard it is to get paint to stick to plastic without changing the structure of the plastic and allowing for movement of the material .The op is being ridiculous and moaning about nothing ,the cables will get painted over the next time the building gets painted .
---------- Post added at 19:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------
it would have been stated in the site survey that black cable would have been ran and this would have been okayed for the planning permission to been given. So surely the OP should have asked questions during the site survey.
How is this VM's fault. Someone most hold a freelance of ownership on the building you should be taking this up with them as they would have agreed to the work bein carried out and would have overseen everything!
So obviously the planning permission was agreed for black cable to be ran.
Not sure that planning permission is required for this as it's only a conservation area not listed properties .Conservation areas tend to be mainly concerned with structural alterations such replacement windows ,conservatories and extensions ,but yes the work would have been passed through the LA and agreed between them ,the building owner and VM so my advice to the op is to quit whining about this trivial matter and get onto the building owner to have it painted if it bugs the tennants that much
UV resistant paint my friend. If the technology exists to cover a building in white stuff that doesn't go yellow, the technology exists to cover a cable in white stuff that does not go yellow. The only question is whether VM bother paying someone to do it for them at the factory or whether they expect (potential) customers to do it for them at their own expense. But that's not what we're debating here.
The point is nobody at VM seemed to have applied two brain cells to realise black != white.
Thank you qasddsaq! At last someobody who sees this issue from a consumer's point of view.
While I have got some very valuable technical information from this forum, I feel like I have stumbled into a cable-installers union. It's not unusual for people who work in a particular industry to see the issue from their own experience and point of view. But please remember, I am not part of your industry.
As a layman I was not aware from looking at other houses in the street what cables were associated with which particular broadband provider.
I got my knowledge from putting in my post code and realising our building was not connected whereas the house next door was. From further reasearch I discovered that the previous freeholder of our building did not reply to the fibre optic company at that time when asked for permission. Later on we were able to take over the freehold because ownership had lapsed.
If my neighbour has painted his Virgin black cables white, how am I to know this?
Let me say again, I am NOT blaming the installers. I am saying that after the survey, that someone at management level at VM should have pointed out to me that black cables would criss-cross a white building. We then could have negotiated or moved on from that position.
Let's take an extreme version: a surgeon would point out the negative repercussions or side effects of a surgical procedure to a patient regardless of whether the patient asked about the side effects or not. This is because the surgeon is aware that the patient will possibly not know to ask about the repercussions or side effects.
As for photos... I get the feeling that if I put some on here that people would say I was just moaning. I think you'd have to be here or to live here to understand it.
However... we are now thinking about just waiting til the building is painted. As someone said, we are lucky to have had all this work done for us for free. Never look a gift horse in the mouth after all. It just would've been useful to have been told about the asthetic repercussions which, as consumers, we were unaware of.
Tim Deegan
23-09-2011, 00:36
Thank you qasddsaq! At last someobody who sees this issue from a consumer's point of view.
While I have got some very valuable technical information from this forum, I feel like I have stumbled into a cable-installers union. It's not unusual for people who work in a particular industry to see the issue from their own experience and point of view. But please remember, I am not part of your industry.
As a layman I was not aware from looking at other houses in the street what cables were associated with which particular broadband provider.
I got my knowledge from putting in my post code and realising our building was not connected whereas the house next door was. From further reasearch I discovered that the previous freeholder of our building did not reply to the fibre optic company at that time when asked for permission. Later on we were able to take over the freehold because ownership had lapsed.
If my neighbour has painted his Virgin black cables white, how am I to know this?
Let me say again, I am NOT blaming the installers. I am saying that after the survey, that someone at management level at VM should have pointed out to me that black cables would criss-cross a white building. We then could have negotiated or moved on from that position.
Let's take an extreme version: a surgeon would point out the negative repercussions or side effects of a surgical procedure to a patient regardless of whether the patient asked about the side effects or not. This is because the surgeon is aware that the patient will possibly not know to ask about the repercussions or side effects.
As for photos... I get the feeling that if I put some on here that people would say I was just moaning. I think you'd have to be here to see it.
However... we are now thinking about just waiting til the building is painted. As someone said, we are lucky to have had all this work done for us for free. Never look a gift horse in the mouth after all. It just would've been useful to have been told about the asthetic repercussions which, as consumers, we were unaware of.
Well at the end of the day you have learned a valuable lesson...in future always ask questions before purchasing, or accepting anything.
weesteev
23-09-2011, 07:39
Kizza, can I ask that you try not take too much on board from this forum as it appears to be swaying your decision.
Please contact the people I have advised and this can be looked at further, you will get limited assistance on this forum.
Cheers
I never would have thought that the worst thing that anyone would say about VM is that they don't offer a choice of colour of external cable..and boy have I heard every complaint about them that could be made.:D
Personally I can't help thinking that if it works and you are getting the service you require you may well find that there are VM customers that envy you and who would think that black cabling was fine provided they got what they were paying for. ;)
Tim Deegan
26-09-2011, 12:58
I never would have thought that the worst thing that anyone would say about VM is that they don't offer a choice of colour of external cable..and boy have I heard every complaint about them that could be made.:D
Personally I can't help thinking that if it works and you are getting the service you require you may well find that there are VM customers that envy you and who would think that black cabling was fine provided they got what they were paying for. ;)
My thoughts exactly....but I don't think your suggestion will work with the OP.
Kizza, can I ask that you try not take too much on board from this forum as it appears to be swaying your decision.
Please contact the people I have advised and this can be looked at further, you will get limited assistance on this forum.
Cheers
Thanks, I will.
Seems the customer is always wrong as far as this lot are concerned ;)
Perhaps it's more a case of the customer always expects a mind reading company that can perform miracles??
Tim Deegan
26-09-2011, 16:35
Kizza still thinks I work for Virgin. Although Kymmy will tell them otherwise.
Tim Deegan
26-09-2011, 17:35
How would I know?
Because you have been arguing with me in another thread when I criticised VM's customer service.
Thanks, I will.
Seems the customer is always wrong as far as this lot are concerned ;)
No I don't think so..After all if you read your contract with VM I doubt that anywhere was there a means or mention about the equipment's cabling and a choice of colour to match the customer's decor..If there was you would have a case.
I'll ask this though. IF you had thought to enquire about the colour of the cable would you have decided NOT to go ahead if informed that black was your only alternative?
Thanks, I will.
Seems the customer is always wrong as far as this lot are concerned ;)
It is not that the customer is always wrong.
Virgin Media use black cable for a reason.
You expect VM to use white cable, or intend on ripping it out.
VM will only reroute the cable, which is still better than your suggestion of ripping it out... but not one which you seem to of considered... just kept arguing black is useless, and that you will rip it out.
qasdfdsaq
26-09-2011, 23:10
Perhaps it's more a case of the customer always expects a mind reading company that can perform miracles??
Again, VM did a survey, and took pictures. Hardly mind reading to look at them!
Conversely expecting the customer to know what cables would be used without VM supplying photos and/or a survey doesn't require mind reading?
Again, VM did a survey, and took pictures. Hardly mind reading to look at them!
Conversely expecting the customer to know what cables would be used without VM supplying photos and/or a survey doesn't require mind reading?
Would they though have even bothered to look at the color? The survey from my understanding is for issues with supply to the grounds and then routing the cables. As the only option is black then color wouldn't have been on their survey checklist.
It would be interesting to see pictures which I thought the OP would have taken and shown by now as the problem might be subjective to what each person deems acceptable?
do the covers get installed only when a building is being wired up while new building is in progress?
weesteev
27-09-2011, 11:48
What covers are you referring to? Most new build properties are internally wired, or if external then a brown omni box is fitted to the exterior of the building where the internal wiring is terminated.
---------- Post added at 11:48 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------
Would they though have even bothered to look at the color? The survey from my understanding is for issues with supply to the grounds and then routing the cables. As the only option is black then color wouldn't have been on their survey checklist.
It would be interesting to see pictures which I thought the OP would have taken and shown by now as the problem might be subjective to what each person deems acceptable?
I have seen the design drawings and it looks like the colour could cause an issue due to the style of the building. Hopefully the OP has been in touch with CableMyStreet to discuss further.
What covers are you referring to? Most new build properties are internally wired, or if external then a brown omni box is fitted to the exterior of the building where the internal wiring is terminated.
OH NO not brown?? :rofl:
weesteev
27-09-2011, 12:00
Haha yes they are still brown! Generally on new build houses they are installed against Tan coloured bricks so you hardly notice them, its very uncommon for new build houses to be completely internally wired (Tee extends directly in house to service cupboard then sealed with a gas seal).
What covers are you referring to? Most new build properties are internally wired, or if external then a brown omni box is fitted to the exterior of the building where the internal wiring is terminated.
a rectangle tube fixed to the wall.
Tim Deegan
27-09-2011, 12:54
a rectangle tube fixed to the wall.
Do you mean the white plastic conduit?
its on a block of flats. 4 corner tube fix to the wall running up the building.
weesteev
27-09-2011, 13:16
You mean trunking, it will be a cover to protect/hide drop cables running up a building?
If so then this is generally only fitted when a building is prewired or the local installers determine themed to protect the cabling. Very uncommon for this to be used these days. If its for protection then we would use galvanised trunking but if its purely for aesthetics then nothing is used.
yeah thats it, trunking sorry.. tube :dozey:
weesteev
27-09-2011, 14:28
Conduit would be a closed tube like the protective green conduit used to bury a cable, trunking would be open at one side (like a gutter) to cover a cable attached to a solid surface.
In the days of main build when we block wired buildings externally, we often used a grey/brown trunk to cover the lower 6-8ft of cable that may be exposed on a public footpath. It is generally plastic and offers no real protection but most of the time is about aesthetics, it helps to mask multiple drop cables running up a building.
In electronics (not electrics) we didn't tend to use much so I've learned something new as to the difference :D
weesteev
28-09-2011, 14:45
Haha you have been educated in the proper use of plastic tubes!
So to speak...
:)
Again, VM did a survey, and took pictures. Hardly mind reading to look at them!
Conversely expecting the customer to know what cables would be used without VM supplying photos and/or a survey doesn't require mind reading?
Ahh the voice of reason! Thank you.
The worse bit is still the 8 black coils of wiring nailed to the outside of the building, adjacent to the windows of each flat. Of course - this is something I should of "anticipated". Silly me.
Blinking Nora. It took you five months to post your reply? :erm: :D
Blinking Nora. It took you five months to post your reply? :erm: :D
we seem to have veritable plethora of thread bumping going on these days Chris :D
Oddly i seem to have brown and white wires, no black wires...
qasdfdsaq
25-02-2012, 04:33
My wires are wireless.
Looks like this thread has nowhere left to go.
Closed. :)
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