View Full Version : modem upgrade question
The Yank
10-04-2011, 13:32
I am currently on a VIP20 package. My question is if I were to take the allegedly free upgrade to 30 MB Broadband (at a modem cost of?) does it use the same modem if I later chose to up to 50MB?
Yes it does, however even if you went from 30Mbit to 50Mbit it's still an engineer install for 50Mbit
The Yank
10-04-2011, 13:50
Yes it does, however even if you went from 30Mbit to 50Mbit it's still an engineer install for 50Mbit
thanks Ben
Ignitionnet
10-04-2011, 16:20
Yes it does, however even if you went from 30Mbit to 50Mbit it's still an engineer install for 50Mbit
That's bizarre given same CPE, DOCSIS 3, etc, any plans to change this? Seems totally unnecessary and a waste of both customers' and engineers' time.
At a guess, not anytime soon.
Considering it could have been years since a customer last had an engineer for a signal level check, they probably want to be on the safe side
Same reason why 100Mbit is engineer only
Just as well go to VIP 50 rather than pay the £30
Neo-Tech
10-04-2011, 19:59
I know this is kinda offtopic but, what are VIP packages?
I know this is kinda offtopic but, what are VIP packages?
http://shop.virginmedia.com/bundles/bundles-with-extras/very-impressive-package.html
At a guess, not anytime soon.
Considering it could have been years since a customer last had an engineer for a signal level check, they probably want to be on the safe side
Same reason why 100Mbit is engineer only
Surely when taking an order for 50/100 they could just check the signal levels there before actioning the config push. If they are bad or close to the limits then arrange an engineer.
Surely when taking an order for 50/100 they could just check the signal levels there before actioning the config push. If they are bad or close to the limits then arrange an engineer.
Customer Services do not have access to those tools so they cannot check, also different kit can affect the power levels as well and 50Mb and 100Mb need to be spot on.
Customer Services do not have access to those tools so they cannot check, also different kit can affect the power levels as well and 50Mb and 100Mb need to be spot on.
They can't now, but if VM decided to sell it this way they could add it to their screens.
They can't now, but if VM decided to sell it this way they could add it to their screens.
That would require training and permissions to be added plus as above the new kit may give a different reading as mine changed after I installed my Superhub.
Ignitionnet
10-04-2011, 21:16
At a guess, not anytime soon.
Considering it could have been years since a customer last had an engineer for a signal level check, they probably want to be on the safe side
Same reason why 100Mbit is engineer only
Tolerance is the same for both, if 30Mb is ok 50Mb will be, exact same frequencies, etc.
This information can be pulled from the modem remotely also. Maybe a future plan would be to have a script go and grab some stats from the data warehouse and do another poll just to be sure and only send an engineer if marginal?
I actually wonder if something similar was done for the 20Mb->30Mb upgrades as some people required an engineer visit, many were just fine and were sent a modem to self-install.
---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:14 ----------
That would require training and permissions to be added plus as above the new kit may give a different reading as mine changed after I installed my Superhub.
Not really just a simple 'ok to self-install' or 'engineer visit required', all back end, no need for much extra training at all just a modification to the workflow to force an engineer booking if required else do a self-install flow.
Not really just a simple 'ok to self-install' or 'engineer visit required', all back end, no need for much extra training at all just a modification to the workflow to force an engineer booking if required else do a self-install flow.
I think you misread what I meant by training as I was answering a question with regards to Customer Services checking power levels with tools that they do not have or have ever used which would require them to be trained.
Also when I swapped to a Superhub my power levels changed and surprising this happens on most modem or even router swaps as we can see it on our online tools, but that is immaterial as Virginmedia require 50Mb and 100Mb to be "Manned Installations" and what the client wants the client gets.
Ignitionnet
10-04-2011, 22:17
No you misread my response which was that instead of giving anyone access to extra tools the work flow be modified so that an automated check is done and the agent forced to book an engineer install if power levels are outside of a guideline or the modem is unable to be queried remotely.
This would not require training as these guys should be perfectly adept at this.
The client wants to make as much money as possible without compromising customer satisfaction, that would if anything improve customer satisfaction as it saves customers wasting their time on unnecessary engineer visits.
Power levels may marginally vary between CPE but it's not a major thing, just tightens the range for self-install slightly. The major issue remains moves from DOCSIS 1.1 to DOCSIS 3 and the resultant move from, in the case of ex-ntl EuroDOCSIS areas, 586.75MHz to 298.75MHz.
In addition we weren't discussing CPE swaps but a case where a customer already has a Super Hub but is on 30Mb then is forced to have an engineer come around and phone up for a regrade to 50Mb.
Whether the client wants it or not isn't the issue, I didn't comment on that, I merely said that it wouldn't require additional training to make it happen, just a change in the back end systems and workflow.
No you misread my response which was that instead of giving anyone access to extra tools the work flow be modified so that an automated check is done and the agent forced to book an engineer install if power levels are outside of a guideline or the modem is unable to be queried remotely.
As I said no online tool is going to be able to say that a different piece of kit is not going to affect power levels because they can and sometimes do by quite a fair bit, so the automated tool you mention would probably be a costly inaccurate piece of kit.
Also it does not matter what could or could not be done on our end as Virginmedia want it done by an engineer, so no engineer equals no upgrade at the present time, now remember that is not my decision it is the clients.
Ignitionnet
10-04-2011, 22:41
As I said no online tool is going to be able to say that a different piece of kit is not going to affect power levels because they can and sometimes do by quite a fair bit, so the automated tool you mention would probably be a costly inaccurate piece of kit.
Also it does not matter what could or could not be done on our end as Virginmedia want it done by an engineer, so no engineer equals no upgrade at the present time, now remember that is not my decision it is the clients.
Given we weren't talking about CPE change it's not such an issue however the major variation is, as noted previously moving from VXR to overlay network with the resultant move from DOCSIS to EuroDOCSIS in many cases along with a frequency move, even this can be trivially predicted once you've an adequate sample.
ntl were able to poll modems 7 years ago while I was there it's a fair assumption that the technology to acquire and warehouse data has improved since.
Cost wise all the functionality is already there, just some work on the back end systems to integrate a polling of existing modem into the work flow along with the two different directions, won't take too long and won't cost much.
Chrysalis
10-04-2011, 23:57
That's bizarre given same CPE, DOCSIS 3, etc, any plans to change this? Seems totally unnecessary and a waste of both customers' and engineers' time.
heh was wondering what your view was on this, glad you agree with me tho, yet another in a list of strange VM decision making.
The way I see it is, they can check signals remotely, if looks ok send the modem out and take the chance it will be fine, if an issue then a tech can be sent out after, if not look ok then do tech install.
heh was wondering what your view was on this, glad you agree with me tho, yet another in a list of strange VM decision making.
The way I see it is, they can check signals remotely, if looks ok send the modem out and take the chance it will be fine, if an issue then a tech can be sent out after, if not look ok then do tech install.
It does not matter what you may think the decision is Virginmedia's to make and they want manned installs, plus realistically can you imagine the uproar if they just sent out modems and the customer found out a technician was required to actually sort out the power levels after all, I say a technician is required everytime just to ensure it works as it should.
Chrysalis
11-04-2011, 06:07
so we have a discussion, ignition asks you a reasonable question. You dont like that the fact there is a conclusion that VM are wasting cash and making customers unhappy so you come out with the usual response of we shouldnt be discussing it because VM have made a decision. We not sitting in your workplace now, we can discuss it, we dont work for VM.
Where is the uproar from self install 30mbit installs?
so we have a discussion, ignition asks you a reasonable question. You dont like that the fact there is a conclusion that VM are wasting cash and making customers unhappy so you come out with the usual response of we shouldnt be discussing it because VM have made a decision. We not sitting in your workplace now, we can discuss it, we dont work for VM.
Where is the uproar from self install 30mbit installs?
No I am talking about 50Mb and 100Mb which Virginmedia have said must be manned installations so that decision has nothing to do with me.
I said that no tool can accurately show that a new modem will not affect power levels and I know this from experience and my own modem and 50Mb and 100Mb are more susceptable to fluctuations in power so aat pressent must be tech installed.
Ignitionnet
11-04-2011, 08:10
No I am talking about 50Mb and 100Mb which Virginmedia have said must be manned installations so that decision has nothing to do with me.
I said that no tool can accurately show that a new modem will not affect power levels and I know this from experience and my own modem and 50Mb and 100Mb are more susceptable to fluctuations in power so aat pressent must be tech installed.
As previously noted the discussion was about someone with a Super Hub being forced to have an engineer come over for a regrade to 50 or 100Mbps.
How many 30Mb upgrades have you seen that have caused issues when regraded to 50Mb? Do you not think that this might have been underlying issues, such as FEC problems at the modem, which can certainly be picked up through an automated test of unerrored vs corrected vs uncorrected code words?
50Mb / 100Mb is not more sensitive to RF conditions, it just shows them more obviously as having to retransmit lost codewords degrades it more. RF issues will show on modem / CMTS stats exactly the same whether the customer is on 30Mb, 50Mb or 100Mb.
No-one advocated upgrading and hoping for the best, I advocated an automated polling of CPE when a customer orders an upgrade and a check of that data against certain criteria set down for power levels, SNR, downstream BER, upstream transmit power and from CMTS upstream SNR and receive power.
Regarding new modems VM have sent them out for some time on self-installs and indeed VM balance traffic between as far as 268MHz apart on the same device, why would a new modem be so catastrophic? It's still the same signal going into the home the variation is purely down to insertion and signal processing loss within the CPE. DOCSIS has an operating range for a reason and should be perfectly tolerant of such things so long as the signal coming into the home isn't marginal.
Heck if VM wanted to they could easily have a pre-qualification QoS class for legacy->overlay upgrades, push the modem onto that so that it retunes to the overlay network and see how the power levels look.
I still don't see where the downside to doing this is beyond that it saves both VM and the customer time and money. Given VM are constantly collecting data on their CPE it seems to make sense to use it.
As previously noted the discussion was about someone with a Super Hub being forced to have an engineer come over for a regrade to 50 or 100Mbps.
How many 30Mb upgrades have you seen that have caused issues when regraded to 50Mb? Do you not think that this might have been underlying issues, such as FEC problems at the modem, which can certainly be picked up through an automated test of unerrored vs corrected vs uncorrected code words?
50Mb / 100Mb is not more sensitive to RF conditions, it just shows them more obviously as having to retransmit lost codewords degrades it more. RF issues will show on modem / CMTS stats exactly the same whether the customer is on 30Mb, 50Mb or 100Mb.
No-one advocated upgrading and hoping for the best, I advocated an automated polling of CPE when a customer orders an upgrade and a check of that data against certain criteria set down for power levels, SNR, downstream BER, upstream transmit power and from CMTS upstream SNR and receive power.
Regarding new modems VM have sent them out for some time on self-installs and indeed VM balance traffic between as far as 268MHz apart on the same device, why would a new modem be so catastrophic? It's still the same signal going into the home the variation is purely down to insertion and signal processing loss within the CPE. DOCSIS has an operating range for a reason and should be perfectly tolerant of such things so long as the signal coming into the home isn't marginal.
Heck if VM wanted to they could easily have a pre-qualification QoS class for legacy->overlay upgrades, push the modem onto that so that it retunes to the overlay network and see how the power levels look.
I still don't see where the downside to doing this is beyond that it saves both VM and the customer time and money. Given VM are constantly collecting data on their CPE it seems to make sense to use it.
As I said it is a decision made at a higher level within Virginmedia and they want these done as manned installs so no matter what anyone thinks the is no way round it at present.
You will remember how they work from your NTL days.
Ignitionnet
11-04-2011, 08:26
No-one's talking about the procedural side of things beyond why they are as they are apart from your good self, it was a general discussion about pros and cons and so far I've not seen any cons.
No-one's talking about the procedural side of things beyond why they are as they are apart from your good self, it was a general discussion about pros and cons and so far I've not seen any cons.
As I have already said if Virginmedia want manned installs the is little anyone can do about it.
Neo-Tech
11-04-2011, 22:15
Igni, forget it. It's going to become like pip's VMNG300 thread on 100Mb. Repetition constantly.
craigj2k12
12-04-2011, 14:15
when i heard about manned installs only, the reason was because 50mb and 100mb were more sensitive to power levels?
It might be manned install as customers will be calling up to find out why they arent getting 100meg wirelessly on a wireless g netbook 5 rooms away then india send a tech out
---------- Post added at 14:21 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------
when i heard about manned installs only, the reason was because 50mb and 100mb were more sensitive to power levels?
30 50 and 100 all use the same, so in theory if they have a hub, its a flick of a switch. The superhub is actually quite tolerant of power anyway, its the wifi/firmware side that lets it down
Chrysalis
12-04-2011, 14:32
when I switched from superhub to vmng300 the power lvel went up by about a single db, and the difference between lagacy and overlay on my end is legacy has about an extra 3-4 db power. So those are the variances I have witnessed.
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