VM Throttling Specific Ports !!

[PowerUser]

Hi, Sorry for typo on the Subject

I'm no Guru on this subject, But I'm smelling something fishy!..

I use Usenet. I've used it for 4 years without any problems. Be It VM or My news provider..

Until the last 12 hours that is..

Test 1: I use the Port I've always used to start downloading about 700mb's worth of files. Speed 1Mbs to 1.5Mbs. !!:confused:.

Test 2: Change port number to my news provider, hey ho. Full 50Mbit.

Test 3: Go back to previous Port number but this time connected via a Secure Encrypted private network!.. Full speed @ 50Mbit.

Test 4: All speed tests from Speedtest.net are showing I'm getting the Full 50Mbit.

But here's the real clue, Even @ 1am This morning outside of the Traffic management hours. My speed on the original Port I've always used to my news provider, showed 38Kb/s.
Dial up speeds..

So.. Are VM doing this to me!!!.Or am I being paranoid..

If not, Do they even have a right to do this..

[spankysmagicpian]

It's not just you. I used to be fine on 50Mb and using port secure port 563. Used to get full download rate. Now I am lucky to get 1.5Mbs before 12:00am

[PowerUser]

So Then, It's true, VM have stooped to a new all time low for there traffic management discretions.

And what makes me Mad, is that before they change there policy, they will not give you the option of leaving them without penalties. (cancellation Charges).

As chandler would say from Friends TV show.

Could I hate them more !!!!!!...

[Jayster]

It's not just you. I used to be fine on 50Mb and using port secure port 563. Used to get full download rate. Now I am lucky to get 1.5Mbs before 12:00am

Try 443? I cannot confirm it is still untouched however it was still fine not so long ago for me.

[carlwaring]

So Then, It's true...
After one other post you have decided that it's true? Wow! Harsh!

I'm sure someone who works for VM will be along shortly to confirm, though more probably deny, that they are actually throttling anything; certainly on the cable side at least.

[PowerUser]

For something so obscure, I only needed ONE other post to confirm it. I've found only one thread on this subject out of 1,659 threads. users only come on here whinning about only getting 85Mbit from a 100Mbit Tier.. I mean PLEASE. Boo bloody hoo !!

They need to get real problems like I'm posting about.

443 Works Jayster!, Full Speed. More proof in the pudding

[colin135]

Hi, Sorry for typo on the Subject

I'm no Guru on this subject, But I'm smelling something fishy!..

I use Usenet. I've used it for 4 years without any problems. Be It VM or My news provider..

Until the last 12 hours that is..

Test 1: I use the Port I've always used to start downloading about 700mb's worth of files. Speed 1Mbs to 1.5Mbs. !!:confused:.

Test 2: Change port number to my news provider, hey ho. Full 50Mbit.

Test 3: Go back to previous Port number but this time connected via a Secure Encrypted private network!.. Full speed @ 50Mbit.

Test 4: All speed tests from Speedtest.net are showing I'm getting the Full 50Mbit.

But here's the real clue, Even @ 1am This morning outside of the Traffic management hours. My speed on the original Port I've always used to my news provider, showed 38Kb/s.
Dial up speeds..

So.. Are VM doing this to me!!!.Or am I being paranoid..

If not, Do they even have a right to do this..

Exactly the same problem for me you are not being paranoid im on the 50mb speed and other users on that speed near me are getting the same problem,last night it came back to the correct speed at midnight.As far as i know THIS IS OBVIOUSLY OUT OF ORDER.

[BenMcr]

Have any of you raised this with Virgin so they can investigate what is going on

None of the Traffic or Application management services manage by port, it's either by total traffic or by protocol

[bigc_imp]

Having similar problems, whats the point in paying for a premium product if you cant use it?

[Stuart]

For something so obscure, I only needed ONE other post to confirm it. I've found only one thread on this subject out of 1,659 threads. users only come on here whinning about only getting 85Mbit from a 100Mbit Tier.. I mean PLEASE. Boo bloody hoo !!

They need to get real problems like I'm posting about.

443 Works Jayster!, Full Speed. More proof in the pudding

Ok, so you are assuming that because ONE person has a problem then Virgin are port throttling. Do you not think that bearing in mind that a *lot* of our membership probably download quite heavily, and a fair few of them use Newsgroups on the 50 meg service, that any such change would generate a lot more than 1 or 2 complaints?

I'd say the contrary. The fact that a couple of people have complained means it is more likely that something is merely misconfigured or is malfunctioning.

[Ignitionnet]

Have any of you raised this with Virgin so they can investigate what is going on

None of the Traffic or Application management services manage by port, it's either by total traffic or by protocol

Ben, I'm going to be testing this when I can. Anecdotal reports seem to indicate that the Allot hardware considers SSL on anything other than port 443 as being 'suspect'.

It's not too surprising if this is the case, the hardware will be looking at the header of the packet before it delves into it to identify the protocol so will likely use information from both as part of its rule set.

---------- Post added at 21:51 ---------- Previous post was at 21:49 ----------

Having similar problems, whats the point in paying for a premium product if you cant use it?

25 quid a month if taken with a phone line isn't a premium product. If you want premium try Be Pro, 'up to' 24Mbps at 27 GBP/month.

The restrictions reflect the price. Nothing stopping from downloading stuff outside of peak periods, if it's wanted that badly a trip to the shops will do the trick.

[foddy]

Ben, I'm going to be testing this when I can. Anecdotal reports seem to indicate that the Allot hardware considers SSL on anything other than port 443 as being 'suspect'.

It's not too surprising if this is the case, the hardware will be looking at the header of the packet before it delves into it to identify the protocol so will likely use information from both as part of its rule set.

For what it's worth, I've noticed a massive decrease in speed on 563 over the last couple of days. I'm hoping it'll fix itself. I've not tried other ports.

I don't know why the hardware would consider 443 as special, as SSL is used for all sorts of protocols, not just HTTPS.

Maybe VM are routeing port 563 via a superhub! :D

[PowerUser]

Ok, so you are assuming that because ONE person has a problem then Virgin are port throttling. Do you not think that bearing in mind that a *lot* of our membership probably download quite heavily, and a fair few of them use Newsgroups on the 50 meg service, that any such change would generate a lot more than 1 or 2 complaints?

I'd say the contrary. The fact that a couple of people have complained means it is more likely that something is merely misconfigured or is malfunctioning.

I'd say that considering that the only 3 people on here from my area are having exactly the same issue, out of a possible 80 thousand residents in my county on VM that don't post on here, The odds that we are the only people in our area having this issue is Ridiculous. I'd say that 3 out of 3 represents more then a few thousand complaints if they realised they could discuss it here.

[Hugh]

Have you reported it as a fault?

[foddy]

Have you reported it as a fault?
I didn't think it was a fault - VM have stated that they'll throttle any traffic they consider to be heavy and low-priority, which would fit with port 563 being restricted.

[Ignitionnet]

For what it's worth, I've noticed a massive decrease in speed on 563 over the last couple of days. I'm hoping it'll fix itself. I've not tried other ports.

I don't know why the hardware would consider 443 as special, as SSL is used for all sorts of protocols, not just HTTPS.

Maybe VM are routeing port 563 via a superhub! :D

Given 563 is NNTP over SSL/TLS I think it's not too hard to consider why they'd want to shape SSL on that port.

Be interesting to see if 989 and 990 are shaped similarly actually. Could be that anything not on 443 will get throttled or that SSL on 563 is specifically targetted.

[PowerUser]

Have you reported it as a fault?

I would if knew I wouldn't get fobbed off again, Unplugging/resetting my modem/router seems to be the answer for everything.

Is there a number I can call where someone knows what were talking about and be completely honest.

[BenMcr]

I would suggest raising it on the Forums http://community.virginmedia.com

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:55 ----------

I didn't think it was a fault - VM have stated that they'll throttle any traffic they consider to be heavy and low-priority, which would fit with port 563 being restricted.Except as I previously said, based on how I understand the management to work, none of Virgin's management is port based

---------- Post added at 23:00 ---------- Previous post was at 22:56 ----------

Ben, I'm going to be testing this when I can. Anecdotal reports seem to indicate that the Allot hardware considers SSL on anything other than port 443 as being 'suspect'.

It's not too surprising if this is the case, the hardware will be looking at the header of the packet before it delves into it to identify the protocol so will likely use information from both as part of its rule set.If it is doing that, then that's different to how I've been told how it works

[PowerUser]

I would suggest raising it on the Forums http://community.virginmedia.com

Not so rare is it, On here it's all over the board.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/50mb-port-throttling/m-p/161788#M19910

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Newsgroup-download-throttling/m-p/388815#M41456

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Service-totally-UNUSABLE/m-p/217651#M26278

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Virgin-Media-to-introduce-port-throttling-on-100mb-service/m-p/174122#M22428

I couldn't be bothered to post the other umpteen threads on it, I was just getting wound up too much!..

[BenMcr]

Not so rare is it, On here it's all over the board.

I couldn't be bothered to post the other umpteen threads on it, I was just getting wound up to much!..Most of the threads you've just linked to are about newsgroup management

Virgin have been doing this since last November and it's in the published policy, so I don't get the point you are trying to make by linking to them

However as far as I'm aware the management doesn't target by port but on protocol.

[PowerUser]

Most of the threads you've just linked to are about newsgroup management

Virgin have been doing this since last November and it's in the published policy

However as far as I'm aware the management doesn't target it based on port but on protocol.

I guess they've just got around to finally dropping the axe on a widespread scale, As I was told by one of your good colleagues a month ago, that the bandwidth usage won't affect me after 9pm. (Whatever the port) Now it's midnight, And I can't find it written in plain english on the merry go round Fair usage policy rules.

[BenMcr]

I guess they've just got around to finally dropping the axe on a widespread scale, As I was told by one of your good colleagues a month ago, that the bandwidth usage won't affect me after 9pm. Now it's midnight, And I can't find it written in plain english on the merry go round Fair usage policy rules.
http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.html

Customers with Broadband size: XXL (50Mb) – your downstream usage excluding file sharing traffic (see below) remains unaffected and we'll soon be increasing your upload speeds from 1.5Mb to 5Mb. However during peak times we'll need to slow you back to 1.75Mb if your upload usage is particularly high.

File sharing
At peak times we also slow down the speed of file sharing traffic – that's services like Limewire, Gnutella, BitTorrent and Newsgroup (Usenet) traffic. You will, of course, still be able to use these services, but downloads and uploads will take longer during these peak periods.

http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-policy.html

File sharing
We moderate the total volume of file sharing traffic on our network between 5pm and midnight on weekdays and midday and midnight on weekends. This policy, which applies to all broadband packages, is restricted to Peer to Peer ("P2P") applications and Newsgroups (which are commonly used to distribute large amounts of data)

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

Also here www.virginmedia.com/traffic (http://www.virginmedia.com/traffic)

[PowerUser]

00:07 here and Port 563 is throttled, 443 is fine.

So forget that midnight statement, it's nonsence.

[Chrysalis]

42 is shaped again also but not so severe as last time.

end of the day VM can shape what they want, however what I have a problem is the claim that they only shape p2p/nntp when they clearly shaping other protocols as well.

As for what Ben said my experience says otherwise, I have found many instances where simply changing the port changes the behaviour, I Am also even seeing youtube been throttled now, stream issues etc. then bang on midnight it works fine. When downloading a youtube clip I was getting a whopping 26kB/sec and it was 11.59pm, then like a switch got flicked it jumped to about 500kB/sec (normal for youtube). So I also think throttling is done on ip end points as well. Protocol shaping is a nightmare and always will be, even if something isnt to blame on it people will always never trust it and be wary.

All they need to do is up the prices to something viable, reduce speeds to something viable and remove the shaping equipment.

so maybe 4/256k for £15
25/1 £30
50/3 £50
100/5 £100

[Skie]

They surely can't claim to be doing it by protocol if they are blanket shaping by port. Probably why they won't admit it (not having a go at ben here, its probably meant to keep most staff in the dark for the companys protection).

On one of those linked VM forum posts there is a guy who's company is using port 563 for file uploads, so that could get hairy for VM if he is actually a journo as he states. Then again it was a post from 2010....

[Ignitionnet]

00:07 here and Port 563 is throttled, 443 is fine.

So forget that midnight statement, it's nonsence.

No it's quite accurate, however there are technical caveats. Once the hardware has classified a particular TCP flow it will not change that classification at midnight, it will just stop classifying new flows.

You had a download started before midnight which carried on past then most likely.

Tricky to get your head around but these things work on flows and classify them when they start. Resetting the connections should enable you to start again unshaped if they haven't screwed other things up.

---------- Post added at 08:34 ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 ----------

Not so rare is it, On here it's all over the board.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/50mb-port-throttling/m-p/161788#M19910

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Newsgroup-download-throttling/m-p/388815#M41456

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Service-totally-UNUSABLE/m-p/217651#M26278

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Virgin-Media-to-introduce-port-throttling-on-100mb-service/m-p/174122#M22428

I couldn't be bothered to post the other umpteen threads on it, I was just getting wound up too much!..

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Service-totally-UNUSABLE/m-p/217651#M26278 is a fault - packet loss on first hop, T3 timeouts.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Newsgroup-download-throttling/m-p/388815#M41456 just covers Usenet throttling and doesn't mention port 563 in any way - that's the shaping working as intended.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/Virgin-Media-to-introduce-port-throttling-on-100mb-service/m-p/174122#M22428 is also shaping working as intended - it was always noted that it would apply to all tiers, no exemption for 100Mb was every mentioned or is possible with the current implementation of the shaping.

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/Up-to-50Mb-broadband/50mb-port-throttling/m-p/161788#M19910 the photo journalist issue isn't related to port shaping, it's a proprietary application so will fall into the 'unidentified' class on the shaping hardware. The note of SSL being shaped on everything besides 443 is mildly interesting however if I were VM I'd be shaping everything from well known Usenet servers regardless of protocol, they might be doing this however that rule is lower in the list than a rule leaving 443 SSL/TLS alone.

I will test this, as I mentioned to Ben, by having an HTTPS server listening on a number of ports and performing performance tests once I have confirmed shaping is in effect.

It's not uncommon for shaping to be blamed for everything though when it's first released - thanks for proving the point ;)

[PowerUser]

---------- Post added at 08:38 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------

You had a download started before midnight which carried on past then most likely.;)

NO I started the download @ 00:05 am


OK, Enough is enough, After 8 years, I'm going to leave these tyrants, Can Anyone recommend an alternative where the ISP doesn't block ports.

[spankysmagicpian]

Ok, so you are assuming that because ONE person has a problem then Virgin are port throttling. Do you not think that bearing in mind that a *lot* of our membership probably download quite heavily, and a fair few of them use Newsgroups on the 50 meg service, that any such change would generate a lot more than 1 or 2 complaints?

I'd say the contrary. The fact that a couple of people have complained means it is more likely that something is merely misconfigured or is malfunctioning.

Nothing is misconfigured and it has only been happening the last month or so. I don't download heavily in peak times, maybe maximum of just over a gig at most in an evening and that's only maybe once or twice a week. Being on 50Mb, that's well within my throttling limit in peak times.

[Ignitionnet]

---------- Post added at 08:38 ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 ----------



NO I started the download @ 00:05 am


OK, Enough is enough, After 8 years, I'm going to leave these tyrants, Can Anyone recommend an alternative where the ISP doesn't block ports.


I can recommend 2 that don't throttle ports.

http://www.bethere.co.uk
http://www.sky.com/shop/broadband-talk/

There are others but those are the mainstream ones.

EDIT: Incidentally when did you connect to the Usenet servers - that's what matters not when you hit the download button or added the files to your queue. It'll reuse the same connections over and over until you either disconnect or reset them. When you started that particular download isn't the point it's when you actually connected to the servers.

[_wtf_]

Could all this talk about port throttling be the reason my PS3 is sometimes unplayable?

[Ignitionnet]

Nah, probably not.

[carlwaring]

OK, Enough is enough, After 8 years, I'm going to leave these tyrants...
Seriously? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant

In common usage, the word "tyrant" carries connotations of a harsh and cruel ruler who places his or her own interests or the interests of a small oligarchy over the best interests of the general population, which the tyrant governs or controls.

Doesn't sound like VM to me :confused:

Can Anyone recommend an alternative where the ISP doesn't block ports.
Erm.... Virgin Media.

[PowerUser]

Seriously? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrant



Doesn't sound like VM to me :confused:


Erm.... Virgin Media.

Were not living by greek mythology!, So try to interprete it into modern society!.

Ie. this line "one who rules without law, looks to his own advantage rather than that of his subjects, and uses extreme and cruel tactics.


Virgin who make there own rules, look to there own advantage rather than that of there customers, and uses extreme and cruel tactics, (ok, there's so many detrimental usage Policy rules now, that were actually very limited what we can do with our traffic).

How about that I keep seeing 50Mb Broadband only package with No phone line or anything else Advertised at £35 Per month inc vat. But virgin won't offer me it below £38!!

Erm oh, And they DO block ports. Do a search. It falls under Deep packet inspection to users of specific ports. kinda like Intrusive acts if you like.

[richs2000]

Hi

I'm on 20Mbps and have been having the same issues. For the last 10 days or so downloads from my Newsgroup provider have been running at 2-3Mbps, tried rebooting router and modem, no change.

Just change it from port 563 to 443 and boom, full speed instantly. To test i paused the downloads and put it back to 563, speed dropped to higher than previously, around 8-10Mbps. Back on 443, 20.3Mbps again.

If that's not throttling by port, i don't know what is. Now it might be doing it unintentionally but it's still doing it.

Bristol area

Rich

[carlwaring]

Yes, we know they're throttling the newsgroups :rolleyes:

[Skie]

If they were doing it like they claim, Carl, then they would be doing it on any port. But they aren't, they are just blanket throttling one port. Which isn't clever as it is trivial to bypass.

[craigj2k12]

Yes, we know they're throttling the newsgroups :rolleyes:

yes, but there supposed to be doing it by protocol, not by port

[PowerUser]

yes, but there supposed to be doing it by protocol, not by port

Yep, and getting 2.6kb/s on that port isn't throttling, That's what I call blocked.

[craigj2k12]

the VM staff on here say that the traffic is managed by protocol, and not by port... looks like they have some answering to do! :P

[Neo-Tech]

PowerUser, have you raised it to Level2 support on Virgin Media Community Forums?

[Peter_]

the VM staff on here say that the traffic is managed by protocol, and not by port... looks like they have some answering to do! :P
Traffic Management in the link http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-policy.html

[broadbandking]

As far as I know VM do block certian ports for security, the traffic shaping is by protocol, simple as that.

[Stuart]

Were not living by greek mythology!, So try to interprete it into modern society!.

Ie. this line "one who rules without law, looks to his own advantage rather than that of his subjects, and uses extreme and cruel tactics.


Virgin who make there own rules, look to there own advantage rather than that of there customers, and uses extreme and cruel tactics, (ok, there's so many detrimental usage Policy rules now, that were actually very limited what we can do with our traffic).

How about that I keep seeing 50Mb Broadband only package with No phone line or anything else Advertised at £35 Per month inc vat. But virgin won't offer me it below £38!!

Erm oh, And they DO block ports. Do a search. It falls under Deep packet inspection to users of specific ports. kinda like Intrusive acts if you like.
DPI may be used with Port Blocking but Port Blocking is not part of DPI.

As for Virgin being Tyrants, I think a little perspective is needed. You want Tyrants, I give you Colonel Gadaffi and his ilk.

The bulk of the population have one (or more) alternative providers of broadband, which they are free to use if they wish. Contrast that with the situation in Libya, were (until the recent trouble) if you didn't agree with Gadaffi, you could *attempt* to leave, but would likely fail. If you stayed and disagreed, you risked serious trouble (or even death).

Virgin own the network on which they operate. They are relatively free to do what they wish with that network. As long as they make little or no attempt to restrict customers ability to leave if they want.

[PowerUser]

Traffic Management in the link http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-policy.html


On that link, Please could you explain why Broadband Package 50Mb XXL, has Not applicable all the way down the board, as to say Traffic management isn't applicable to that tier, when it obviously is, It can't be outdated, as the 2011 logo is stamped at the bottom of the page.

Thanks

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:26 ----------

DPI may be used with Port Blocking but Port Blocking is not part of DPI.

As for Virgin being Tyrants, I think a little perspective is needed. You want Tyrants, I give you Colonel Gadaffi and his ilk.

The bulk of the population have one (or more) alternative providers of broadband, which they are free to use if they wish. Contrast that with the situation in Libya, were (until the recent trouble) if you didn't agree with Gadaffi, you could *attempt* to leave, but would likely fail. If you stayed and disagreed, you risked serious trouble (or even death).

Virgin own the network on which they operate. They are relatively free to do what they wish with that network. As long as they make little or no attempt to restrict customers ability to leave if they want.

Well considering I'm so far from a telephone exchange that I can't even get BT Infinity, I'm stuck with the Colonel. If you don't like my dictatership then die is abit OTT. We as paying consumers deserve better.

PowerUser, have you raised it to Level2 support on Virgin Media Community Forums?

I've never used there forums, not even registered, so not sure how to raise it to that level.

[Peter_]

On that link, Please could you explain why Broadband Package 50Mb XXL, has Not applicable all the way down the board, as to say Traffic management isn't applicable to that tier, when it obviously is, It can't be outdated, as the 2011 logo is stamped at the bottom of the page.

Thanks
.
It is not traffic managed at the present time.

http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.html

Customers with Broadband size: XXL (50Mb) – your downstream usage excluding file sharing traffic (see below) remains unaffected and we'll soon be increasing your upload speeds from 1.5Mb to 5Mb. However during peak times we'll need to slow you back to 1.75Mb if your upload usage is particularly high.

[BenMcr]

On that link, Please could you explain why Broadband Package 50Mb XXL, has Not applicable all the way down the board, as to say Traffic management isn't applicable to that tier, when it obviously is, It can't be outdated, as the 2011 logo is stamped at the bottom of the page.The table is for the main how much you've uploaded/downloaded Traffic Management which is seperate to the application management which applies to all the services

I've never used there forums, not even registered, so not sure how to raise it to that levelAll you need to do is go to http://community.virginmedia.com and create a thread just as you have done here (make sure you post from home when you do). It should then get picked up

[Neo-Tech]

And also takes up to 5 days to reply, bumping the thread moves it to the back of the queue.