View Full Version : Ladder Too Short!!
Wicked_and_Crazy
21-12-2010, 12:07
After three weeks of waiting we've just had installations turn up to install a second STB. They ended up leaving without doing anything as the cable needed to pass through the loft. He hadnt got a long enough ladder to reach the loft of a 2 storey house!!!
What made it worse was the fact he was told there would be someone at home every day until the 4th of Jan so when did they try to reschedule the install?? Yes you guessed it, the 4th of Jan!!
MovedGoalPosts
21-12-2010, 13:17
Any rescheuled reinstall would inevitably be booked on the next available basis. Given that so many people want to take time off over the holiday period, I'm not surprised that it's ini the new year.
How high is the loft hatch? As a surveyor I've seen plenty that are stuck iin places that a three metre ladder can't safely reach i.e. over stairs. No doubt you also don't have a suitable ladder to get to the loft, or the installer could have borrowed it.
I had a similar problem but we did it the other way round; I pushed the cables through the loft wall down to the installer who tacked it to the wall as high as his ladder would reach and left me some twin clips to tack the high bits he couldn't reach (must get round to doing that soon)
Wicked_and_Crazy
21-12-2010, 13:47
noooo the ladder is required to run the cable up the side of the house. Standard height 2 story house.
The installer wouldnt use my ladder as he's not insured
I was at work and im sure the wife wasnt going to help him too much!!
MovedGoalPosts
21-12-2010, 14:18
Ah then it was an 'elf and safety thing. I suspect most installers will only have ladders that would get to first floor level, not eaves level. Above a certain height all sorts of extra precautions would come into play. It is generally recognised now that little if anything can be done from a ladder more than a storey height. I've even had issues when I've complained to our council about broken traffic lights. Green and amber are easy fix, but the red bulbs are just too high :erm:
Wicked_and_Crazy
21-12-2010, 15:50
perhaps they shouldnt use elfs to do installs ;)
perhaps they shouldnt use elfs to do installs ;)
but that would be sizeist shirley?
gondalio
21-12-2010, 18:24
lol we don't touch loft work or anything thats even that high, too many health and safety issues. I mean i have been up in lofts and its not the best place to be running cables unless its 6ft tall up there in my case. Not to say i havent gone up there because in some cases you have no choice but it is all down to the installer and whether he deems it safe enough to go up there. best thing to advise is if you or someone can get up there and run the cable up there then we can do the rest that would probably be your only work around
Wicked_and_Crazy
23-12-2010, 15:35
The issue isnt with the loft, the issue was the installer not being able to drill the wall from the outside to get into the loft due to not having a ladder. I'm perfectly happy to run the cable across the loft for them appart from the fact i'd have to have a day off work when my wife has already taken a day off work for them to do the install.
Was promised they would come back in the afternoon to do it, but no show. Was promised they would call the folloiwng day to make arrangements, no call. Have phoned them since and apparently they're not taking calls due to the weather. Appears the phone must be too cold for them ;)
What a poor state of affairs when a company you want to buy something from cant be bothered to communicate with you. If i hadnt entred a new 12 month agreement a month or so back this shoddy service would make me think of going elsewhere.
jungleguy
23-12-2010, 23:07
A loft is a 'confined working environment' here are the risks involved in entering such an environment copied and pasted from gov web site
Every year, a number of people are killed and others seriously injured working in confined spaces across a wide range of industries in the UK, from those involving complex plant to simple storage vessels.
Those killed include not only people working in confined spaces but those who try to rescue them without proper training and equipment.
Dangers can arise in confined spaces because of:
* lack of oxygen
* poisonous gas, fume or vapour
* liquids and solids suddenly filling the confined space, or releasing gases into it when disturbed
* fire and explosions
* residues left behind which can give off gas, fume or vapour
* dust
* hot working conditions.
In my opinion it is unreasonable to expect and installer to go into your loft without the necessary training or equipment.
my tongue is firmly in my cheek
I was asked to go under a floor where there was a 2 foot gap to run telephone cables, when I explained it was too small he called me lazy, that I couldn't be bothered and I shouldn't be working for virgin!
I do go up lofts if it makes my life easy but if you damage anything and you work for a contractor it comes out your wages. It's not that they don't want to it's sometimes it's just not worth the risk to the installer.
All new vans come with small ladders, there are some lock boxes we can't get to now
jungleguy
24-12-2010, 09:40
I'm having more of a poke at the people that made up the H&S rules.
Digital Fanatic
24-12-2010, 13:57
I was asked to go under a floor where there was a 2 foot gap to run telephone cables, when I explained it was too small he called me lazy, that I couldn't be bothered and I shouldn't be working for virgin!I do go up lofts if it makes my life easy but if you damage anything and you work for a contractor it comes out your wages. It's not that they don't want to it's sometimes it's just not worth the risk to the installer.
All new vans come with small ladders, there are some lock boxes we can't get to now
That's a bit rough... some people can be very rude can't they? :(
Jonnymeg
24-12-2010, 17:58
All installers that work alone are forbidden to work above 2 meters and that is why they do not carry the ladders.
Two man teams can work higher as they can assist each other but they have to be booked in, hence the delay.
It is annoying for you but you have to respect their need for safety, i am sure you would prefer to wait than to scrape blood and brains from your drive.
not strictly on topic but i live in a 2 storey maisonette, 1 flight up if that makes any sense and my window cleaner will only do my downstairs windows at the back, but will do the upstairs at the front as he can access off the shed roof :wacko: not allowed to work over "X" height.
It's not just health and safety you have to blame for this, it's the insurance market as well.
They simply won't insure people for ladder work if they think there is even the smallest risk so most policies will forbid it. So anyone that then goes on to work above that height is actually putting their policy in jeopardy, and if they have an accident (even at a normal working height) the insurance company could refuse to pay out.
I have no problem refusing to do a job, why should I climb to the top of a ladder, stretch, with my drill?
God forbid, slip and end up in a heap in your garden? All I ask is that you let my other half and kids know that daddy wont be able to put food on the table for the next few months as I have to heal and (depending on contractor) survive on SSP, dont forget my house getting repossessed because I wasnt able to make full payments on the mortgage, oh and the fact my ladder fell over and landed on your car, smashing your windscreen and damaging your body panels, that will be coming out of my own pocket too dont forget.
Your extra box isnt worth my health :), and you will find 99% of installers will agree with me.
Surely there is an alternative route? IE: into the bedroom then into the loft?
Wicked_and_Crazy
06-01-2011, 13:17
All installers that work alone are forbidden to work above 2 meters and that is why they do not carry the ladders.
Two man teams can work higher as they can assist each other but they have to be booked in, hence the delay.
It is annoying for you but you have to respect their need for safety, i am sure you would prefer to wait than to scrape blood and brains from your drive.
Exactly, thats why when the appointment was booked i made a point of suggesting the cable would need to be drilled through an extenal wall to enter the loft of a 2 story house.
left hand right hand syndrome.
Even the installer suggested it would be the best approach but hadn't been informed
---------- Post added at 13:10 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------
It's not just health and safety you have to blame for this, it's the insurance market as well.
They simply won't insure people for ladder work if they think there is even the smallest risk so most policies will forbid it. So anyone that then goes on to work above that height is actually putting their policy in jeopardy, and if they have an accident (even at a normal working height) the insurance company could refuse to pay out.
Rubbish, you can get insurance for anything as long as your prepared to pay the premium. Insurance is all about risk so saying "if they think there is even the smallest risk so most policies will forbid it" is total nonsense
---------- Post added at 13:17 ---------- Previous post was at 13:10 ----------
Surely there is an alternative route? IE: into the bedroom then into the loft?
No, this is what the installer also agreed would be best. Otherwise a cable would have to be run from one side of the house to the other all the way around the outside. Then up to the second storey and then through the wall upstairs looking pretty awful on the front of the house.
If its such an issue then it shouldnt be offered as a service. Either state that they dont do second floor installs or just get on with it!!
Whilst i appreciate that doing ladder work in the icey weather isnt a good idea and is fine to reschedule its the fact that VM cant be bothered to reschedule off their own back. Eventually it took 4 calls to get it rescheduled. Only one more week to wait (now 2 months since originally booked). At least im no longer paying the install charge ;)
You make it sound like you are the only person this has ever happened to, this happens to a fair amount of us a few times a month where customers have told CS that 'a specialist height team' is needed or the cable has been removed from the garden. Yet they still send a 1 man crew.... or something along them lines.
Myself, I dont know why CS/Sales dont hear the alarm bells ringing when they say the cable has been cut/removed. This is the biggest pain in the ass for us I can assure you.
The last thing we want to do is turn up to a job, and run into problems. It is seriously POINTLESS telling cs/sales how you want the cable to run, as they really dont care - they arnt the ones doing the work - that really bugs me as they usually throw in some 'extra' work we are meant to do whilst were there like, rewire your house, make your beds, make your dinner, and whilst we are there, add 10 extension sockets and a cable point in every room just incase you want to move it in the future.
"Well the girl on the phone said this...." - She lied
"I was promised a Samsung box" - Tough, your having a SA box and your gonna like it
"They said you would connect this box up to all my tv's in the house" - Doesnt have RF out and no im not
"You cant take my old NTL/Telewest box, I paid for that!" - no you didnt.
Sorry, a little rant there :)
WelshPaul
06-01-2011, 14:20
BT don't appear to have the issues virgin seem to suffer from!
They are forever up and down ladders, they don't appear to be restricted by health and safety policies or insurance for that matter?
BT don't appear to have the issues virgin seem to suffer from!
They are forever up and down ladders, they don't appear to be restricted by health and safety policies or insurance for that matter?
I can assure you they are. BT have fantastic ladder training, are given full harnesses, and work at heights nearly all day. They can also call in a cherry picker if so required.
BT follow H+S by the book and so they should!
I can assure you they are. BT have fantastic ladder training, are given full harnesses, and work at heights nearly all day. They can also call in a cherry picker if so required.
BT follow H+S by the book and so they should!
I can confirm this .BT are currently working on my site re siting cable that goes through windows and re drilling through the brickwork .Were they have to do this to an upstairs window all the engineers wear harnesses and are only allowed up the ladder to certain height after that it either a cherry picker or tower scaffold
weesteev
06-01-2011, 16:31
BT engineers work to a totally different network deployment where the vast majority is above ground and on poles. Their engineers likely have different training and also different insurance liabilities compared to any Virgin Media engineer.
BT engineers work to a totally different network deployment where the vast majority is above ground and on poles. Their engineers likely have different training and also different insurance liabilities compared to any Virgin Media engineer.
this is true ,standard public liability only covers workers upto and including the 1st floor anythink above you have notify your insurers
If in doubt, drill out and pull tight! :) ;)
The Installer
07-01-2011, 19:09
Rubbish, you can get insurance for anything as long as your prepared to pay the premium. Insurance is all about risk so saying "if they think there is even the smallest risk so most policies will forbid it" is total nonsense[COLOR="Silver"]
You can yes, however the vast majority of VM installations do not require any access to lofts etc.
Why would the company then pay for insurance to allow their installers to work within lofts or at such heights? For the odd one or two installs like yours that might require it?
I can tell you that one of the reasons VM have said they DO NOT allow their installers to work above 2 meters, is due to previous accidents, where techs have been injured, some badly, by falling from ladders.
You may want your cable to go through the loft, it might be the best way, and customer service can say whatever they like to you on the phone, but if i were you, i'd be prepared for many more engineers turning up and saying they cannot complete the installation due to working at height.
There will always be another way to get a cable to the point you want it to go to in your property, however you might not want it run that way, maybe around the door frames etc, but that is your choice, there will be another way.
The completion of 2nd floor installations can still take place, i for one have completed a few, by drilling the hole out from a loftroom etc and then pushing the cable out from inside. This can then be pulled tight and clipped as high as we are allowed to go. So to say they cannot be completed is wrong.
To work from a loft however is not an option, and in some situations, yes the installation cannot go ahead, after all, every install is different.
You may not agree with my post, but this is how it is. I do however hope you find someone to do your installation the way you want it done.
WelshPaul
09-01-2011, 09:46
This i find rather odd, i can understand the loft argument but VM only allow their staff to work at a maximum height of 2 meters?
How do they manage to install multi-room subs? they must thing we all live in bungalows!
Wicked_and_Crazy
10-01-2011, 16:58
You make it sound like you are the only person this has ever happened to, this happens to a fair amount of us a few times a month where customers have told CS that 'a specialist height team' is needed or the cable has been removed from the garden. Yet they still send a 1 man crew.... or something along them lines.
Myself, I dont know why CS/Sales dont hear the alarm bells ringing when they say the cable has been cut/removed. This is the biggest pain in the ass for us I can assure you.
The last thing we want to do is turn up to a job, and run into problems. It is seriously POINTLESS telling cs/sales how you want the cable to run, as they really dont care - they arnt the ones doing the work - that really bugs me as they usually throw in some 'extra' work we are meant to do whilst were there like, rewire your house, make your beds, make your dinner, and whilst we are there, add 10 extension sockets and a cable point in every room just incase you want to move it in the future.
"Well the girl on the phone said this...." - She lied
"I was promised a Samsung box" - Tough, your having a SA box and your gonna like it
"They said you would connect this box up to all my tv's in the house" - Doesnt have RF out and no im not
"You cant take my old NTL/Telewest box, I paid for that!" - no you didnt.
Sorry, a little rant there :)
CS training required maybe?? Calls are recorded so if complaints are made the calls should be replayed to find the truth
or maybe the VM left hand needs to talk to the right hand rather than ........
---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------
You can yes, however the vast majority of VM installations do not require any access to lofts etc.
Why would the company then pay for insurance to allow their installers to work within lofts or at such heights? For the odd one or two installs like yours that might require it?
That is my point, either offer the service and carry the insurance or dont offer it at all. The install cost could cover the cost of a one job insurance policy should it be needed if someone bothered to sort it out.
CS training required maybe?? Calls are recorded so if complaints are made the calls should be replayed to find the truth
Not all calls are recorded you will find on average that in a month each agent will have 2 maybe 3 calls recorded after which they are analyzed by a Quality Improvement Assessor and the agent will be given a Quality Feedback session based on those calls only.
Sometimes a manager or other person may do some remote monitoring but in the main very few calls are recorded and they are usually deleted after the session.
The Installer
10-01-2011, 18:13
That is my point, either offer the service and carry the insurance or dont offer it at all. The install cost could cover the cost of a one job insurance policy should it be needed if someone bothered to sort it out.
Unfortunately the way the insurance is at present will not change and as i mentioned previously these rules have been put in place for a very good reason, injury!
I'm quite sure there would be another route the cable into your property could take other than your prefered or the easiest route. As i previously said you might not like this, but there is normally another way.
As for offering "the service", well if CS or sales say you can have the cable through the loft, they are at fault, not the installers. After all, who does the installation, CS, Sales or Install?
@WelshPaul
VM allow their installers to go up to a height of 2 meters on ladders. This is the height their feet can go to and this is more than enough to enable a second floor install to take place where you drill through just above the skirting board inside.
Unfortunately the way the insurance is at present will not change and as i mentioned previously these rules have been put in place for a very good reason, injury!
I'm quite sure there would be another route the cable into your property could take other than your prefered or the easiest route. As i previously said you might not like this, but there is normally another way.
As for offering "the service", well if CS or sales say you can have the cable through the loft, they are at fault, not the installers. After all, who does the installation, CS, Sales or Install?
@WelshPaul
VM allow their installers to go up to a height of 2 meters on ladders. This is the height their feet can go to and this is more than enough to enable a second floor install to take place where you drill through just above the skirting board inside.
Of course the other option is for VM to pass all the extra cost of a "special install" involving scaffold ,extra insurance ect on to the customer and it won't be cheap... and then hear the customers winge
jungleguy
10-01-2011, 20:51
There are no health and safety restrictions when carrying out work on your own home, just do it yourself. Simples.
There are no health and safety restrictions when carrying out work on your own home, just do it yourself. Simples.
Yeah, VM should really have a department where if you want to run cables in special circumstances.. say if you want to hide all the cables, or run them through a loft, or under floorboards etc... you just contact them, discuss what you want to do.. then they supply you with an ample amount of cable.. then engineer just comes down, puts connectors on the end and tests it.
there is a way of sourcing cable, but seems to be extremely difficult.
once read of somebody who was renovating their house and wanted to put the cables under the floor and inside walls.. somebody came down to discuss the install with him, then left a new roll of cable.
but bet if most people enquire the usual answer would be no lol, so they could certainly look at catering for people who want a custom install.
Wicked_and_Crazy
11-01-2011, 18:14
Had a call today to confirm the install on Thursday. Given the back and forth with VM so far i thought i'd ask if a 2 man install had been booked due to the previous install failed.
The reposne was "What failed install?" and no a 2 man crew wasnt booked. But they will make a note of it!! sounds like there's going to be a repeat of the last install failure.
They will make a note of it means, all the best. We look forward to seeing your post Thursday evening where you tell us that your back to square one.
Its a shame really.
Wicked_and_Crazy
12-01-2011, 13:30
They will make a note of it means, all the best. We look forward to seeing your post Thursday evening where you tell us that your back to square one.
Its a shame really.
Someome from VM phoned me and asked if they could come and have a look at the house to make sure they sent the right people with the right equipment!!
Making a note appears to have worked :)
Wicked_and_Crazy
13-01-2011, 22:46
install went fine, installer didnt need to go as high as he thought and never even drilled a hole. Used the same exist as the roof aerial.
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