New upload speeds and Network Management

[joglynne]

Virgin Media Press release.

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1477506&highlight=

I have had a search but couldn't see that the above link has been posted could a mod please close this thread if it duplicates another thread.

[Nero182]

Amazing news! Really Happy 5mb upload :D!

Now just to wait for the Belfast update :(! Bet it will be next year.

[virginruinedntl]

amazing news :) hope it doesn't take too long for me to get it!

[Dai]

Cheers..

:)

[Central]

Lets just wait for the new users joining and asking

When is my area going to be upgraded?

And then never hear from them again.

Great news though and the stm on the upload dropping it down to 1.75mb. I can cope with that :)

[oliver1948uk]

Have you noticed that traffic management is being introduced on uploafs for 50Mb customers?

In addition, as the increased upstream speeds roll-out to customers, Virgin Media is also increasing its peak time allowances for data transfer to ensure more customers can get the most out of their superfast broadband service. On a daily basis this traffic management system improves the performance that over 95 per cent of customers receive, whilst helping to minimise the negative effect the five percent of heaviest users have by temporarily slowing down their speeds, ensuring a fair share of network resources during the busiest times. For customers on its premium up to 50Mb service, this temporary slowdown will only operate on upload speeds and an extremely heavy user will see this reduce from up to 5Mb to up to 1.75Mb, above its pre-upgrade level of 1.5Mb. Despite these peak time traffic management measures, Virgin Media fibre optic broadband remains without monthly usage limits.

[haydnwalker]

Unfortunately, it means users on 50meg will be subject to traffic shaping. But from what I read over at ThinkBroadband (http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/i/4403.html), it implies it will be upload shaping only.


The upgrade will also involve rolling out traffic management over the platform, something its '50 meg' XXL users have not yet been subjected to. This will prioritise 'real-time' traffic such as video streaming over peer-to-peer and newsgroups activity to attempt to ensure all users get a good experience.

[hemelvirgin]

hi,

hope their notification system is upto it to keep people informed when to re-boot the modem.

http://www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads

[Nero182]

I can Deal with Upload shaping cause even 1.75 MB is still reasonable.

Traffic Shaping was bound to be introduced on 50Mb when 100Mb is rolled out.

[Ignitionnet]

I am just basking in the reflected glow of a huge dose of 'I told you so' ;)

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------

hi,

hope their notification system is upto it to keep people informed when to re-boot the modem.

http://www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads

They'll reboot it for you when sorted.

[Thyroid Help]

So if i upload more than 6GB I will be STM'd...

That's easy to do with v Stuff and YouTube.

What does it go down to once your STM'd

I'm happy though!!!

[Hugh]

That's a lot of of YouTube videos.....;)

[Central]

So if i upload more than 6GB I will be STM'd...

That's easy to do with v Stuff and YouTube.

What does it go down to once your STM'd

I'm happy though!!!

Have you even read the posts or links posted?

Says on there

[dd11]

6GB between 3PM - 8PM, then it's current speed once STM'd, i'd say that was fair enough :)

EDIT: (50mb)

[dudload]

i cant help but wonder when the rollout schedule will be released. this news makes people happy and anxious (for the upgrade) simultaneously!

[ileikcaek]

The awesome news is STM limits on the evening period have been increased, it was 1400MB on 20Mb but it now says 3000MB, that's quite a good boost. other tiers will get a boost too. :D

[dudload]

yeah, when i heard STM i was thinking it was all going to be bad news. im on 50MB and actually dont mind the restrictions. i get a nice boost out of peak and peak will never go below what i had before - happy days!

[broadbandking]

I am confused, during peak times what is NTTP,BT speeds going to be reduced to?

[roger skillin]

I'm upgrading to 50mb next week so this is great news, not really worried about the upload cap, at least they're not touching the download and 1.75 up will still be fine for me when uploading to Vstuff

[Kymmy]

I wonder how this will impact on the business users???

[pabscars]

Great news all round, and nice to see a sensible approach to STM on XXL, it gets my thumbs up.

[Ignitionnet]

I am confused, during peak times what is NTTP,BT speeds going to be reduced to?

They will get whatever is left over after other higher priority protocols have had their share of the bandwidth, so it will depend on how busy the network is with these other protocols.

The link does specifically state though that during peak times NNTP and P2P will get no more than 25% of the network capacity.

[broadbandking]

They will get whatever is left over after other higher priority protocols have had their share of the bandwidth, so it will depend on how busy the network is with these other protocols.


Thats fair enough, just means downloads will have to wait, not that I download much, just mainly surfing and gaming.

[janipewter]

Wahey announced! Now no doubt a 9 month wait until I get it...

[Thyroid Help]

Have you even read the posts or links posted?

Says on there

Erm hostile??

I have Now read and have seen it will go downto just under what we are getting at present, so it's all good not that bothered about the STM and will probably only touch the STM rarely.

[pabscars]

May as well chuck this link in as well

http://www.virginmedia.com/myvirginmedia/faster_upload_traffic_management_table.php

[AL123]

Hmmm seems like a rather blunt tool if that 25% figure for Usenet/ bitorrent is correct.

I Signed up to a unlimited pakage with no shaping, i'm quite happy to have my traffic shaped if the network is busy but i don't see how Usenet, which is usually a paid for service should get such a low priority compared to HTTP services. If the shaping is heavy then i will be switching, might aswell have a slower broadband/ Sky pakage if it slows been down heavily. It's ok saying to schedule but if this hits me too heavily there is no point as i want my content now, not tomorrow! Anyway we'll see how it affects i suppose, especially with 100mbit on the horizon

[Hugh]

AL123, if you check the link in the post above yours, it clearly states that there is no Management on XXL downloads, and there is an upstream limit of 6GB between 3pm and 8pm, after which upstream speed will be reduced by 65% for 5 hours, so you shouldn't be affected.

[Ignitionnet]

NNTP uses a lot of resources, disproportionately so, binary NNTP is almost universally copyright infringement, and Virgin make zero money out of NNTP. That's why the low priority. :)

---------- Post added at 14:40 ---------- Previous post was at 14:40 ----------

AL123, if you check the link in the post above yours, it clearly states that there is no Management on XXL downloads, and there is an upstream limit of 6GB between 3pm and 8pm, after which upstream speed will be reduced by 65% for 5 hours, so you shouldn't be affected.

It states that all tiers will be shaped though Hugh.

[Peter_]

It states that all tiers will be shaped though Hugh.
50Mb download is unaffected only the upload is to be shaped.

[broadbandking]

Yes but all tiers are affected by the traffic shaping.

[virginruinedntl]

when do the new bandwidth caps start today or when each area has the new upload speed upgraded?

If i was to download a torrent once i get my upload upgrade would i get 25% of my 20mb (5mb) the entire time i downloaded the torrent? If so thats ridiculous! I download linux iso's and other legit torrents. bittorrent is mearly a protocol not a piracy machine, granted the majority of torrents are copyrighted material but thats still not an excuse.

I'll be looking to jump ship to BT's Infinity whenever i get it enabled at my exchange and cabinet if this is indeed the case.

I also download uk tv shows from a uk tracker which made an agreement with the bbc to allow it to continue if people added their licence number to their accounts as iplayer doesn't include all shows and certainly not all channels.

[Kymmy]

Does anyone actually believe that BT won't do the same?? They're selling a limited service at a price.. they can't have everyone using 100% of their bandwidth 100% of the time.. and I even think that 50% figure might be too much at peak times

[Peter_]

Yes but all tiers are affected by the traffic shaping.
But at least with 50Mb it is only on the Upstream and just takes it back to the original 1.75Mb upload, at least the Download is not dropping to 12.5Mb as it would if it followed the other tiers.

[Ignitionnet]

But at least with 50Mb it is only on the Upstream and just takes it back to the original 1.75Mb upload, at least the Download is not dropping to 12.5Mb as it would if it followed the other tiers.

Loads of confusion here.

Traffic shaping and STM are different things, they run at the same time, all tiers are shaped in both directions.

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:18 ----------

when do the new bandwidth caps start today or when each area has the new upload speed upgraded?

If i was to download a torrent once i get my upload upgrade would i get 25% of my 20mb (5mb) the entire time i downloaded the torrent? If so thats ridiculous! I download linux iso's and other legit torrents. bittorrent is mearly a protocol not a piracy machine, granted the majority of torrents are copyrighted material but thats still not an excuse.

I'll be looking to jump ship to BT's Infinity whenever i get it enabled at my exchange and cabinet if this is indeed the case.

Well given that BT heavily protocol shape I'd say you'd be wasting your time there.

The shaping is coming online 'now' the new STM limits along with the upgrades.

The torrents themselves aren't being shaped by 75% - the shaping is to ensure NNTP and P2P as a total usage of the network stays under 25% at peak periods.

Am I the only person who actually read the releases properly? :confused:

[nomadking]

Is Newsgroup and P2P traffic now excluded from the totals that trigger the standard STM restrictions? That would mean no restrictions before 5pm on weekdays for P2P and Newsgroups.

[virginruinedntl]

ahh yes, i mis-read it, still it sucks that they are shaping it at peak times, peak times are when people want to download tv shows etc.

Next they'll be shaping youtube, itunes and iplayer i bet!

[Peter_]

Loads of confusion here.

Traffic shaping and STM are different things, they run at the same time, all tiers are shaped in both directions.


The traffic management link below shows no shaping on the 50Mb downstream only upstream.

http://www.virginmedia.com/myvirginmedia/faster_upload_traffic_management_table.php

[weesteev]

Thats what I thought Masque, the traffic "shaping" doesnt appear to be mentioned either. The file sharing restrictions appear to link into the existing STM policy as well, if thats the case then 50Mb has no restrictions downstream.

[virginruinedntl]

i wonder if the 100mb will have at STM for the upload, hope not.

[nomadking]

Loads of confusion here.

Traffic shaping and STM are different things, they run at the same time, all tiers are shaped in both directions.

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:18 ----------



Well given that BT heavily protocol shape I'd say you'd be wasting your time there.

The shaping is coming online 'now' the new STM limits along with the upgrades.

The torrents themselves aren't being shaped by 75% - the shaping is to ensure NNTP and P2P as a total usage of the network stays under 25% at peak periods.

Am I the only person who actually read the releases properly? :confused:
If that really is the case, then as long as NNTP/P2P remains below 25% of the total traffic, NNTP/P2P users might be better off than before as the totals don't seem to count towards normal STM limits and downloads will be at full speed.

[pabscars]

i wonder if the 100mb will have at STM for the upload, hope not.

I hope it does,,,,,,,,,, it makes sense

[Bman]

This is very confusing.

So are the p2p/newsgroup transfers the only thing to be shaped if the limits are reached? Or is the whole connection slowed down if limits are reached, and the protocol shaping is an entirely separate management system applied only when the network is experiencing heavy load?

[Milambar]

This is confusing indeed.

For example, how will it affect skype-to-skype voip calls, which also use a P2P protocol? Warcraft patch downloads, which is a legal use of bittorrent...

So many things they are NOT saying.

[Bman]

It did say on the virgin site that important stuff like skype would not be traffic shaped, i would imagine the warcraft patches would get hit by the same shaping as any other p2p file transfers but what i can't figure out is if they are shaped

a: All the way through peak
b: At peak but only when the network usage in that area is high
c: Only when the STM limits are triggered

[Ignitionnet]

The traffic management link below shows no shaping on the 50Mb downstream only upstream.

http://www.virginmedia.com/myvirginmedia/faster_upload_traffic_management_table.php

That's because that's traffic management not protocol shaping. Totally different things as I suspect you'll find out in a big way when fielding calls on this ;)

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

The file sharing restrictions appear to link into the existing STM policy as well, if thats the case then 50Mb has no restrictions downstream.

Where do the file sharing restrictions appear to link into the existing STM policy?

I see nothing to suggest this at all. Quite the opposite.

http://www.virginmedia.com/traffic

What traffic management policies are you applying to the heaviest users?

That can depend on the broadband package you're signed up to and the type of online applications you are using.

For detailed information on how we manage individual customers who are uploading or downloading an unusually large amount of data click here.

This policy only affects the top 5% of customers on a daily basis - those whose usage of the service would affect other customers in their area if they weren't managed.

File Sharing:

We also moderate the total volume of file sharing traffic on our network between 5pm and midnight on weekdays and midday and midnight on weekends. This policy is restricted to Peer to Peer (“P2P”) applications and Newsgroups (which are commonly used to distribute large amounts of data)

Seems pretty clear to me, 'also' and 'total volume' are quite specifically used :shrug:

[RainmakerRaw]

To clarify further:

How does it affect me?
Customers with Broadband size: XXL (50Mb) – your downstream usage excluding file sharing traffic (see below) remains unaffected and we'll soon be increasing your upload speeds from 1.5Mb to 5Mb. However during peak times we'll need to slow you back to 1.75Mb if your upload usage is particularly high.
File sharing
At peak times we also slow down the speed of file sharing traffic – that's services like Limewire, Gnutella, BitTorrent and Newsgroup (Usenet) traffic. You will, of course, still be able to use these services, but downloads and uploads will take longer during these peak periods.

This is from http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.html

So in other words, you can do anything you want with your 50 meg connection, except download with it... LOL

If it's hard capped at 25% of capacity that's stupid (well depending on what that actually is). I mean if I'm paying for XXL, which I am, and want to download something at 11pm and it happens nobody in my area is doing much (I'm in a small area) then up to 70% of network capacity is sat doing nothing, while I'm being "shaped" to buggery.

They definitely need to clarify this imho.

[Bman]

If it's hard capped at 25% of capacity that's stupid (well depending on what that actually is). I mean if I'm paying for XXL, which I am, and want to download something at 11pm and it happens nobody in my area is doing much (I'm in a small area) then up to 70% of network capacity is sat doing nothing, while I'm being "shaped" to buggery.

They definitely need to clarify this imho.

If that's the case then hopefully the 75% is just 'reserved' and can still be used by p2p if it's sat there doing nothing.

[RainmakerRaw]

If that's the case then hopefully the 75% is just 'reserved' and can still be used by p2p if it's sat there doing nothing.

Indeed. I'm very anti-throttling in general. Sorry, but if Easynet/Sky/UK Online could provide me with 500GB plus of completely unthrottled data a month over an old fashioned phone line, and have the netadmin say to me "It's OK we have tons of bandwidth", surely VM can do the same with their "fibre optic" network. :p:

But I'd have no qualms if the NNTP/BT shaping is as you suggest. "Up to 100%" of speed during 5pm to midnight, lowered by up to 75% (i.e. down to 25% of capacity) "IF" it is being actively utilised elsewhere by users, is OK by me. That's just a balancing game. But "Nobody is using it, but you can still only have 25%" is a bit daft. Depends what they mean by it; it really does need clarifying.

[Peter_]

That's because that's traffic management not protocol shaping. Totally different things as I suspect you'll find out in a big way when fielding calls on this ;)


As it stands now the is traffic management on the 50Mb Upstream which can drop from 5Mb up to 1.75Mb up a drop of 65%, but the is no corresponding figures to say that the is traffic management or protocol shaping on 50Mb as it would have to be published.

If such information were not published then customers will disconnect in droves and will be within their rights as they must publish such information otherwise they would just be fielded to Customer Relations by all agents as we have no knowledge of any such protocol.

[RainmakerRaw]

As it stands now the is traffic management on the 50Mb Upstream which can drop from 5Mb up to 1.75Mb up a drop of 65%, but the is no corresponding figures to say that the is traffic management or protocol shaping on 50Mb as it would have to be published.

Erm, I posted just such a quote (see above) from VM's own website, stating that 50Mbps IS subject to shaping for NNTP and BT between 5pm and midnight.

EDIT: And yes; depending on how they end up implementing it (as above it's far from clear), I'm considering leaving. I'd rather have a truly unrestricted 20Mbps than a shaped and throttled 50 meg cable line. My line does provide a full 20-21Mbps on a 24Mbps ADSL2+ line, I've had it before. The reason I jumped to VM was because 50 meg/XXL was advertised as being "truly unlimited 'fibre optic' broadband'. *backpeddle, backpeddle*...

[Ignitionnet]

As it stands now the is traffic management on the 50Mb Upstream which can drop from 5Mb up to 1.75Mb up a drop of 65%, but the is no corresponding figures to say that the is traffic management or protocol shaping on 50Mb as it would have to be published.

If such information were not published then customers will disconnect in droves and will be within their rights as they must publish such information otherwise they would just be fielded to Customer Relations by all agents as we have no knowledge of any such protocol.

It has been published.

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1477506&highlight=

As part of the roll-out and in order to ensure fair usage of available capacity Virgin Media will be rolling out a new traffic management system at peak times, designed to adapt to network conditions to ensure time-sensitive and interactive uses – such as surfing or streaming high-definition video – remain unhindered by non-time-sensitive traffic such as peer-to-peer and newsgroup activity, reducing the possibility of annoying buffering that can occur when trying to watch TV online at peak times. Using smart network monitoring, the system will reserve at least 75 per cent of network resources for time-sensitive traffic, adjusting dynamically to overall network usage to ensure consistent performance for more customers.

I'm sure a more complete description will be mentioned, however due to its' dynamic nature it will be quite impossible for this to be given exact figures as it would entirely depend on how much bandwidth is being used by different classes of traffic at any one time.

As has been mentioned this applies to the entire network and every residential subscriber on it.

[Peter_]

Erm, I posted just such a quote (see above) from VM's own website, stating that 50Mbps IS subject to shaping for NNTP and BT between 5pm and midnight.


As you said above it needs clarification as that still gives me nothing to tell a customer why they are slow and will lead to people disconnecting, what are agents supposed to do guess what has happened.

---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

It has been published.

http://pressoffice.virginmedia.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=205406&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1477506&highlight=



I'm sure a more complete description will be mentioned, however due to its' dynamic nature it will be quite impossible for this to be given exact figures as it would entirely depend on how much bandwidth is being used by different classes of traffic at any one time.

As has been mentioned this applies to the entire network and every residential subscriber on it.
If they do not clarify what they mean then many will disconnect as that is pretty meaningless and Customer Relations will be very busy as all we can do with the present information is just hum and har and say sorry no idea what is happening to your connection.

[RainmakerRaw]

As you said above it needs clarification as that still gives me nothing to tell a customer why they are slow and will lead to people disconnecting, what are agents supposed to do guess what has happened.

That's a valid point, I was simply pointing out that VM have published information stating NNTP and BT will be throttled 5pm - midnight. I'm going to be keeping a close eye on this one, and as we've said they (VM) definitely need to carefully define this.

If it's a case of dynamically adapting shaping based on other use (eg allowing me up to 100% of my line's maximum even during shaping periods, provided nobody else is using the bandwidth) that's not so bad. To hard cap me regardless, even with spare capacity, would obviously be silly.

However, I'm still wondering why someone should be throttled/shaped for downloading via NNTP, when Granny Smith watching Eastenders on iPlayer will get full speed. For those horrible people who infringe copyright, they're only downloading the same thing Granny's watching on iPlayer - it's merely the delivery method that is being discriminated against.

You can say NNTP can go faster (a download is 50Mbps versus iPlayer streaming an XVID) but iPlayer downloads episodes into cache in seconds so clearly they're not that much different.

[AdamD]

I had a feeling the 50mb product would get some form of shaping.

Doesn't bother me to much, I was expecting a much more severe restriction.

No doubt the 100mb product will be released as traffic shaping free, but then like the 50mb tier, will eventually fall to the same fate.

[edgedemon]

Just my luck..
I upgraded to 50Mb last Saturday becuase of the unrestricted bit, now they are traffic shaping all customers...
Gonna ring them and downgrade back to 20Mb tonight when I get in..
It was the 'unrestricted' bit that sold me to the 50Mb, if they are restricting everyones usenet acess, then I might as well go back to 20Mb and save some cash..

[RainmakerRaw]

AdamD, it says "all tiers" so I'd take that to include 100 megs too, once it comes out. Unless they re-write it all again at that time. Hopefully so, but if it was a case of keeping the flagship product shaping/throttling free then XXL wouldn't be getting shaped now as until 100Mbps comes out it IS (still) the flagship product. :(

edgedemon - if it's a choice between 20Mbps and 50Mbps I'd still say stick with XXL/50. XL has "REAL" STM and DOCSIS2 related congestion. At least 50Mbps "only" has NNTP/BT restrictions between 5 and 12. So much for selling me 50Mbps as "truly unrestricted, unlimited fibre optic internet" though. I thought DOCSIS3 was supposed to eliminate the need for all this silliness. That's certainly what I was told when I signed up.

As I said I'm considering leaving back to ADSL2+ with my nice unrestricted 20Mbps. But I wouldn't ditch XXL for 20Mbps...

BTW as I asked above: For those who know, even with DPI how will VM be able to distinguish between NNTP/BT and "legit" (I hate that as it's not true) SSL traffic on the same ports such as work/VPN, financial transactions, etc etc? Surely traffic over 443 which is SSL is the same whether it's NNTP or HTML or whatever else inside?

[nomadking]

Streaming HD video using iPlayer etc will end up being affected by STM anyway.

[RainmakerRaw]

Streaming HD video using iPlayer etc will end up being affected by STM anyway.

Well not according to VM's new page:

This policy does not impact any applications other than Peer to Peer and Newsgroups, so things like watching iPlayer, online gaming, making calls via Skype, downloading music tracks from iTunes or streaming them from Spotify and sending an email or normal browsing are unaffected.

Still a silly system though.

[v0id]

Streaming HD video using iPlayer etc will end up being affected by STM anyway.

iplayer streaming won't be affected as it no longer uses the peer to peer protocol. Spotify streaming however will :(

[RainmakerRaw]

The thing I'm still thinking about is "Why push on with headline speeds if the capacity isn't there"? Don't give me all the spiel about "only a couple of percent 'abuse' the network" as if that was the case you'd expect (a) not to be hitting capacity issues and (b) not to have people clamouring for 50Mbps, 100Mbps and 200Mbps as they're rumoured to be released.

If you can't sustain 50Mbps without shaping/throttling, why push on towards 100 plus Mbps? Great headlines, but poor delivery. You sometimes get "Yes but NNTP means bigger downloads than streaming as people can comfortably get x264 now rather than being stuck on dial-up with xvids"... But that's a self-defeating statement. If you don't want customers to USE the internet to its capability, don't go releasing 50Mbps (and later 100-200Mbps) products. Sell dial-up, and they'll actually STICK to downloading less.

No, wait. Bad headlines!

[Ignitionnet]

BTW as I asked above: For those who know, even with DPI how will VM be able to distinguish between NNTP/BT and "legit" (I hate that as it's not true) SSL traffic on the same ports such as work/VPN, financial transactions, etc etc? Surely traffic over 443 which is SSL is the same whether it's NNTP or HTML or whatever else inside?

TCP analysis and source-destination analysis can be trivially done which will expose things.

SSL VPNs to work use one connection, not several, SSL to news.giganews.com is a no brainer, P2P can be trivially spotted by the number of connections to a specific port on the client side. Remember that each connection our PCs make to a remote server we increment our source port and connections are initially unidirectional and to a single or relatively few servers, while with P2P there will be several connections coming in to us (the initial SYN / datagram of the flow will be inbound) and all to the same port, and outbound flows will be a single connection to several remote machines as we incorporate into the swarm.

From the point of view of these analyses the main job of DPI is to ensure against false positives. If it's not recognised assume that it's bad and place it in the excrement list.

Decent DPI systems can happily operate with unidentified flows low down in the single digits.

---------- Post added at 17:48 ---------- Previous post was at 17:41 ----------

The thing I'm still thinking about is "Why push on with headline speeds if the capacity isn't there"? Don't give me all the spiel about "only a couple of percent 'abuse' the network" as if that was the case you'd expect (a) not to be hitting capacity issues and (b) not to have people clamouring for 50Mbps, 100Mbps and 200Mbps as they're rumoured to be released.

If you can't sustain 50Mbps without shaping/throttling, why push on towards 100 plus Mbps? Great headlines, but poor delivery. You sometimes get "Yes but NNTP means bigger downloads than streaming as people can comfortably get x264 now rather than being stuck on dial-up with xvids"... But that's a self-defeating statement. If you don't want customers to USE the internet to its capability, don't go releasing 50Mbps (and later 100-200Mbps) products. Sell dial-up, and they'll actually STICK to downloading less.

No, wait. Bad headlines!

Simple - because the vast majority of users don't increase their usage very much when they are upgraded. A minority do, and either the costs of the packages must increase dramatically or measures must be taken to minimise the impact of these people on their local networks.

Perhaps you'd prefer pay per GB?

Everything we do should be noted in the context of the prices paid and the amount of bandwidth our subscriptions actually pay for. Free upgrades don't suddenly make our money go further and a compromise has to be struck between burst, sustained throughput and cost.

I would prefer to pay more for less restriction sadly the UK market doesn't really roll that way. The only operators who offer such services of any scale are either expensive or have a sugar daddy paying the bills for them.

[nomadking]

The 'are unaffected' is in the context of the 5pm-12am weekday, 12pm-12am weekend restrictions on P2P/NNTP. I think you'll might find that P2P & NNTP traffic doesn't count towards the 'Fair Use amount' but everything else(iPlayer etc) does. Testing today, I downloaded over 9Gb NNTP data without STM kicking in, but at 5pm the speed dropped to 2.5Mb.

IIRC some newsgroup providers used to allow access using HTTP. That would bypass the NNTP restrictions.

Something is limiting iPlayer HD to 2.5Mb. Is it STM or has use of NNTP affected non NNTP/P2P traffic as well?

[RainmakerRaw]

TCP analysis and source-destination analysis can be trivially done which will expose things.

So NNTP over a decent Swedish VPN it is, then? :p: That or back to FTP.

Simple - because the vast majority of users don't increase their usage very much when they are upgraded. A minority do, and either the costs of the packages must increase dramatically or measures must be taken to minimise the impact of these people on their local networks.

Perhaps you'd prefer pay per GB?

Everything we do should be noted in the context of the prices paid and the amount of bandwidth our subscriptions actually pay for. Free upgrades don't suddenly make our money go further and a compromise has to be struck between burst, sustained throughput and cost.

I would prefer to pay more for less restriction sadly the UK market doesn't really roll that way. The only operators who offer such services of any scale are either expensive or have a sugar daddy paying the bills for them.

Well to be fair my usage hasn't increased since I moved from ADSL2+, and I was only paying half the price for that than I am for XXL. I wasn't shaped, throttled or 'managed' on the ADSL2+ either...

[Ignitionnet]

So NNTP over a decent Swedish VPN it is, then? :p: That or back to FTP.

Depends whether or not they have a list of VPNs usually used for nefarious purposes and shape those as well ;)


Well to be fair my usage hasn't increased since I moved from ADSL2+, and I was only paying half the price for that than I am for XXL. I wasn't shaped, throttled or 'managed' on the ADSL2+ either...

Mine hasn't changed since I dropped from XXL to ADSL2+.

If you are referring to the ADSL2+ service I think you are, UKOnline, that was heavily subsidised by Sky, as Be is by O2/Telefonica.

[RainmakerRaw]

Depends whether or not they have a list of VPNs usually used for nefarious purposes and shape those as well ;)

Hence why I mentioned the (very quick, free and easy) method of setting up a ready-made NNTP proxy on a dedicated server to be shared by its users. That, coupled with SSL, would I imagine be indistinguishable especially over 443. There are more decent VPN providers than I could care to count, especially in Scandanavia and some parts of Europe etc.

FTP's still good too. :D


If you are referring to the ADSL2+ service I think you are, UKOnline, that was heavily subsidised by Sky, as Be is by O2/Telefonica.

Yep, Easynet/UK Online are owned by Sky and the service on LLU is impeccable, totally throttling/STM/whatever free and has truly no download limits. All for a few quid a month. Now that's internet. :)

EDIT: the two threads really need merging!

[BenMcr]

Spotify streaming however will :(Er no it won't ;)

This policy does not impact any applications other than Peer to Peer and Newsgroups, so things like watching iPlayer, online gaming, making calls via Skype, downloading music tracks from iTunes or streaming them from Spotify and sending an email or normal browsing are unaffected.

[RainmakerRaw]

As I've said though, being serious for a moment, how many users want 50/100/200Mbps to browse email and read the Telegraph? I'm very certain some take it "just because it's the top one" or because some sales guy twisted their arm, but in general I'm willing to bet the majority of users are there because they want the fastest downloads possible, whatever the service, its content, or reason for using it.

To sell massive headline speeds, followed by blanket throttling, just turns users towards other ISPs imho.

[BenMcr]

As you said above it needs clarification as that still gives me nothing to tell a customer why they are slow and will lead to people disconnecting, what are agents supposed to do guess what has happened..You can still tell if someone is STM'd, so I would assume that you would run your usual tests e.g download from gamefiles, check the modem etc.

If all tests came back ok but P2P was running 'slow' during the evening period then it's likely they are being shaped on the protocols

[Ignitionnet]

As I've said though, being serious for a moment, how many users want 50/100/200Mbps to browse email and read the Telegraph? I'm very certain some take it "just because it's the top one" or because some sales guy twisted their arm, but in general I'm willing to bet the majority of users are there because they want the fastest downloads possible, whatever the service, its content, or reason for using it.

To sell massive headline speeds, followed by blanket throttling, just turns users towards other ISPs imho.

No more than time critical services running appallingly during peak times or having services costing twice as much to ensure the capacity is there to cater for heavy usage would though.

[RainmakerRaw]

No more than time critical services running appallingly during peak times or having services costing twice as much to ensure the capacity is there to cater for heavy usage would though.

But as above if that's the case and they can't provide that capacity, then why double (and re-double) the available speed and thus increase the incidence of problems? They had to introduce STM - which was wildly criticised - on 20Mbps and below because of 'congestion'.

Roll on 50Mbps because it's "DOCSIS 3" and "truly unlimited fibre optic broadband that won't suffer from congestion like lower DOCSIS 2 tiers"...

Now we're back at square one with shaping, while they continue to double the headline speed. Surely that doesn't sound right to you? Blame "abusive" users while offering yet another speed doubling so you can "do stuff quicker*" (*provided you don't actually want to really really use it). :D I'd happily pay £50 or whatever for a true 50Mbps service. They were charging that originally anyway. There's only a minority of VM customers on 50Mbps at the moment and no doubt (without heavy discounting at least) it'll be even less on 100Mbps. So with so few users, on a DOCSIS 3 network, how on earth are they needing shaping and to blame users?

BRB, doubling the network speed... LOL

[Ignitionnet]

The DOCSIS 3 network exists to supply capacity relief to the legacy network. That it could do 50Mbps was a bonus :)

[RainmakerRaw]

The DOCSIS 3 network exists to supply capacity relief to the legacy network. That it could do 50Mbps was a bonus :)

It didn't help much if they're still increasing/adding shaping? :erm: Further, 50 megs was sold to me as "OMG no need to throttle, manage or shape. Truly unlimited 'fibre optic broadband'". D'oh.

[FrankieX]

I'm disappointed that they haven't increased the download fair use limit in the new STM (http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-faster-uploads.html). You would think if this tiny percentage of users are taking all the bandwidth and this new traffic management can stop them during peak hours then there should be a lot more to share around for video streaming. I subscribe to MLB.tv which streams live baseball games, most of them out of peak hours but some are played from 6-9pm, and if I tried to watch them I would go over my peak download limit within an hour. And I even have difficulty catching up on the weekend because of the whole day (well 10am-9pm) is covered by the STM still. Virgin is certainly the fastest and most reliable ISP available in my area, but without upgrading from L to XXL (which is obviously a lot more money a year) it still isn't much good at providing streaming video in my opinion.

[Peter_]

You can still tell if someone is STM'd, so I would assume that you would run your usual tests e.g download from gamefiles, check the modem etc.

If all tests came back ok but P2P was running 'slow' during the evening period then it's likely they are being shaped on the protocols
It will not be a good experience for the customer to find out that they are being shaped in a way that are not truly aware of as the wording is rather ambiguous and will very likely lead to customers wanting to disconnect as they will feel they are being misled or told a tall tale.

[RainmakerRaw]

I'm disappointed that they haven't increased the download fair use limit in the new STM (http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-faster-uploads.html). You would think if this tiny percentage of users are taking all the bandwidth and this new traffic management can stop them during peak hours then there should be a lot more to share around for video streaming. I subscribe to MLB.tv which streams live baseball games, most of them out of peak hours but some are played from 6-9pm, and if I tried to watch them I would go over my peak download limit within an hour. And I even have difficulty catching up on the weekend because of the whole day (well 10am-9pm) is covered by the STM still. Virgin is certainly the fastest and most reliable ISP available in my area, but without upgrading from L to XXL (which is obviously a lot more money a year) it still isn't much good at providing streaming video in my opinion.


That's what I was getting at above. If only a "small percentage" of users are "abusing" (read "using fully") their connection then why is everyone suffering? Sounds more like over selling than customer abuse to me. BT like to tell people that about their ADSL product.

Surely if only a tiny minority are "abusing" their connections it won't matter? Since each user only has a fixed speed available (10, 20, 50Mbps) then they can only ever use that amount of bandwidth. If the network has enough for its intended purpose (see earlier posts, 50Mbps surely isn't intended for email!) then what's the problem?

[Ignitionnet]

Surely if only a tiny minority are "abusing" their connections it won't matter? Since each user only has a fixed speed available (10, 20, 50Mbps) then they can only ever use that amount of bandwidth. If the network has enough for its intended purpose (see earlier posts, 50Mbps surely isn't intended for email!) then what's the problem?

No consumer network has close to enough capacity to handle any amount of users using their full available bandwidth. You're talking 50:1 or more on the 50Mbit product as far as bandwidth sold to available goes.

This allocates 1Mbps to each customer. This is way in excess of the allocation of many ISPs, some allocate as little as 30-40kbps to each customer.

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

It didn't help much if they're still increasing/adding shaping? :erm: Further, 50 megs was sold to me as "OMG no need to throttle, manage or shape. Truly unlimited 'fibre optic broadband'". D'oh.

It helped tremendously. Without it and given the rise in bandwidth usage the network would have keeled over.

If it was sold to your in that manner that's not ideal at all. As far as 'fibre optic' goes it doesn't change that, even on fully fibre optic connections, capacity is shared.

[colin25]

http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/discover-broadband/broadband-speed/upload-speeds.html
it says it will keep this page updated with areas getting new upload speeds

[RainmakerRaw]

I used the oft-touted 'fibre optic' phrase to show that VM aren't shy about embellishing. We all know FTTC and co-ax to the premises is far better overall than ADSL type systems over a phoneline. But 'fibre optic' it ain't, no more so than ADSL really. You know what I mean. They bandy around "fibre optic network" as though it's FTTH. Even ADSL is fibre before the last mile. :p:

I was indeed sold 50Mbps/XXL on those grounds (previous posts re: no throttling/congestion); very clearly so. Hence my umbrage. But as I said it'll likely not affect me anyway as I'm pretty nocturnal. It's principle rather than loss.

1Mbps per customer just means it'll be 512Kbps per customer come the 100 meg rollout, unless more upgrades take place, right? Surely you see that while I may not be as technically knowledgeable as you obviously are, I'm making a valid enough point - certainly from a consumer's perspective? :)

EDIT: For clarity's sake. I meant when I was trying to say earlier that VM seem to be over-selling and blaming customers. Sure they may be better than other ISP's (50:1 still sucks), but from a consumer's perspective the faster VM go the worse the throttling gets! There may be underlying reasons, but to a customer it's pathetic to jump to 50Mbps and introduce throttling, while you're bragging in press releases that you're bringing out 100 and 200 meg broadband AND looking at 400Mbps. "Sort out the ones we HAVE" is a typical cry on forums all over the web. Some capacity to meet the capability wouldn't go amiss.

As I said earlier, I'd happily pay double to stay free of shaping/STM/whatever you want to call it. Whether that means paying £55 for 50Mbps, or dropping down to 25Mbps and continuing to pay £28. 20+Mbps does me fine, though I'd still prefer a gigabit (who wouldn't?). My point being there's a point of diminishing returns. I'd rather my price increase went to better capacity than faster speeds I don't even need yet - or more to the point, higher speeds I can't fully use to my heart's content because the bandwidth isn't actually there... leading me, the customer, being called "abuser", "leecher", "minority spoiler for the masses"...

[shake n bake]

Great news, TM wont affect me though thankfully:D

[Chrysalis]

Indeed. I'm very anti-throttling in general. Sorry, but if Easynet/Sky/UK Online could provide me with 500GB plus of completely unthrottled data a month over an old fashioned phone line, and have the netadmin say to me "It's OK we have tons of bandwidth", surely VM can do the same with their "fibre optic" network. :p:

But I'd have no qualms if the NNTP/BT shaping is as you suggest. "Up to 100%" of speed during 5pm to midnight, lowered by up to 75% (i.e. down to 25% of capacity) "IF" it is being actively utilised elsewhere by users, is OK by me. That's just a balancing game. But "Nobody is using it, but you can still only have 25%" is a bit daft. Depends what they mean by it; it really does need clarifying.

agree, this is a bad move by VM.

1 - what if you a light user but what you do is p2p,nttp related only. For you that download may be time sensitive ie, you sitting waiting for it but because some guy at VM says its not time sensitive it is treated as such. Even if you a heavy user the service is sold as unlimited and STM will kick in.
2 - 25% seems a low fixed cap to set, this applies all day long or just at peak times?
3 - what happens when using latency sensitive stuff on non default ports eg. I dont use port 22 for ssh and is encrypted, is VM's equipment going to assume its p2p and then cause me artifical jitter etc?

we have ignition saying VM's network as a whole is fine for capacity which would be a suggestion VM didnt need to do this and they doing this to follow the crowd.

---------- Post added at 22:41 ---------- Previous post was at 22:35 ----------



Simple - because the vast majority of users don't increase their usage very much when they are upgraded. A minority do, and either the costs of the packages must increase dramatically or measures must be taken to minimise the impact of these people on their local networks.


This is what the adsl isps thought when they introduced 8meg adsl max, they thought they can inrease end user speeds without touching capacity because "dont worry noone will use extra", how they got it so wrong. Not sure how this is different.

Is a higher headline speed but with traffic shaping an upgrade? most probably not.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------

That's what I was getting at above. If only a "small percentage" of users are "abusing" (read "using fully") their connection then why is everyone suffering? Sounds more like over selling than customer abuse to me. BT like to tell people that about their ADSL product.

Surely if only a tiny minority are "abusing" their connections it won't matter? Since each user only has a fixed speed available (10, 20, 50Mbps) then they can only ever use that amount of bandwidth. If the network has enough for its intended purpose (see earlier posts, 50Mbps surely isn't intended for email!) then what's the problem?

of course its more than a tiny minority, as you said if it was a small unimportant amount then it would have no noticeable affect. Isp's wont say this tho, they hardly going to say by the way we throttling a 3rd of our users.

My guess is casual p2p/nntp use is at least a 1/4 of the userbase and its only serial use that is low single digits. I know a lot of people who use torrents, from various backgrounds and age groups. But they all casual users.

[BenMcr]

2 - 25% seems a low fixed cap to set, this applies all day long or just at peak times?Just peak times:

http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-policy.html

We moderate the total volume of file sharing traffic on our network between 5pm and midnight on weekdays and midday and midnight on weekends.

3 - what happens when using latency sensitive stuff on non default ports eg. I dont use port 22 for ssh and is encrypted, is VM's equipment going to assume its p2p and then cause me artifical jitter etc?
No it won't

[|Kippa|]

Will ftp and SSH ports be shaped as well? It would be nice to upload/download to my server without being shaped.

[BenMcr]

Will ftp and SSH ports be shaped as well? It would be nice to upload/download to my server without being shaped.It's made quite clear in the policy pages it's only P2P and Newsgroups that are application managed

How FTP and SSH are managed has not changed from the previous policy

[virginruinedntl]

i presume utorrent with encryption enabled won't be able to bypass virgin's packet detection technologies to determine if its bittorrent?

[SideWeaver]

I was happy to learn they put mine up to the 5Mbit being on 50, but I reckoned it was the trial going on. However it is awesome to learn it is staying. (As long as I do not go overkill on torrents lol)

Seeing the picture below when it came up just made me go wow and yay!

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/09/1.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[Ignitionnet]

i presume utorrent with encryption enabled won't be able to bypass virgin's packet detection technologies to determine if its bittorrent?

You presume correctly.

[RainmakerRaw]

You presume correctly.

What legislation allows a private enterprise ('company') to break the encryption on my private communications in order to determine their contents? Just curious.

PS: "AUP"/"FUP"/"T&C" and so on are not legislation. The law trumps these things. Not saying YOU don't know that, but you'd be surprised how many don't!

[Risco]

I don't upload much, but it is nice to have the increased speed! Glad they kept downloads unlimited.

[RainmakerRaw]

I don't upload much, but it is nice to have the increased speed! Glad they kept downloads unlimited.

You call this unlimited downloads? Well yes, but not very quick. May as well downgrade to 20Mbps or migrate tbh. :p:

[Cromulent]

BTW as I asked above: For those who know, even with DPI how will VM be able to distinguish between NNTP/BT and "legit" (I hate that as it's not true) SSL traffic on the same ports such as work/VPN, financial transactions, etc etc? Surely traffic over 443 which is SSL is the same whether it's NNTP or HTML or whatever else inside?

Because NNTP over SSL uses port 563 by default. Port 443 is for HTTP.

Anyway SSL does not hide the header of the NNTP or HTTP packet it just encrypts the content. So for instance if I visit a website the ISP and everyone else knows which website I have visited, the URL of the specific page but they just do not know what the content of the request (or response) is.

That is why SSL is basically no protection at all for people who download 'dodgy' things. If your NNTP file is called "My-Pirated-Film.avi" then the ISP knows that. The SSL connection will of course encrypt the file itself but if you are downloading a file with a title like that and it is the same size as a standard film it doesn't take a genius to work out what the SSL connection is hiding.

Edit: I should also point out that it is possible to tell what application level protocol is using no matter what the port is. NNTP, BitTorrent and HTTP are sufficiently different that the headers alone will allow the traffic shaping software to tell.

[Haighy]

The webpage about the new upload speed says it is already available in Huddersfield and all you have to do it switch off the modem for 20 secs and you will have it. I'm in Huddersfield, did the reboot the modem thing, no change. Maybe it is only available in parts of Huddersfield ?

[IGR]

Nice to see an increase maybe we'll suffer maybe not! but take a look at where we should be. Gaming friend of mine gets this..

[colin25]

Nice to see an increase maybe we'll suffer maybe not! but take a look at where we should be. Gaming friend of mine gets this..

No wonder everyone kicks my ass on MW2...thank god, I thought it was because I was getting too old for games :D

[Ignitionnet]

Anyway SSL does not hide the header of the NNTP or HTTP packet it just encrypts the content. So for instance if I visit a website the ISP and everyone else knows which website I have visited, the URL of the specific page but they just do not know what the content of the request (or response) is.

SSL hides everything within the IP packet. There is no way of knowing whether what's inside the packet is HTTP, NNTP, IMAP, whatever, it just looks like an encrypted mess once the tunnel is established.

People will know which site you visited, there is no way of knowing what the specific URL you went to was.

Just a small point.

---------- Post added at 07:49 ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 ----------

Nice to see an increase maybe we'll suffer maybe not! but take a look at where we should be. Gaming friend of mine gets this..

Coming very soon.

[A[L]C]

Oh great. Im getting 50mb installed today. I was heavily sold the fact that there was no traffic management or download limits by the sales person. In fact she mentioned it more than 3 times in our 5 minute chat. Then it was mentioned again twice whilst I called following some issues signing up.

Just glad Im in the cooling off period so I can see just how bad its going to be.

[Ignitionnet]

The sales person was absolutely right. There isn't - yet ;)

[janipewter]

So when is the schedule being published? South west will no doubt be last anyway

[A[L]C]

When does it come in to play?

[colin25]

Yes, any timetable available?

I'm hoping for soon, but at worst, within my lifetime :D

[Ignitionnet]

No consumer network has close to enough capacity to handle any amount of users using their full available bandwidth. You're talking 50:1 or more on the 50Mbit product as far as bandwidth sold to available goes.

This allocates 1Mbps to each customer. This is way in excess of the allocation of many ISPs, some allocate as little as 30-40kbps to each customer.

I have been poked and reminded that since I took that information upgrades have been done, the contention is about the 30:1 mark - meaning each customer has 1.67Mbit/s allocated to them at peak times.

This is absolutely miles ahead of the allocations from the ISPs that are running BT's FTTC at this time, and way ahead of the capacity that BT Wholesale allocate to FTTC too - between 8 and 16 times the capacity.

[Chrysalis]

is this claimed 8 fold increase in upload capacity still happening? Because logically the statements given to me dont add up.

1 - VM supposedbly dont have capacity issues for the majority of customers/areas at present, just 'problem' areas with congestion.
2 - On top of this capacity is been increased 8x on uploads more then the increase in speed so congestion should in theory decrease.
If 1 and 2 are true why are VM enabling protocol shaping?

[Ignitionnet]

1 - VM supposedbly dont have capacity issues for the majority of customers/areas at present, just 'problem' areas with congestion.

Correct.

2 - On top of this capacity is been increased 8x on uploads more then the increase in speed so congestion should in theory decrease.
If 1 and 2 are true why are VM enabling protocol shaping?

Statistical contention - 100Mbit will have a 10Mbit upstream. 10 into 18 isn't nice maths.

[BenMcr]

Yes, any timetable available?No, no advance timetable.

Mainly because, although there is a likely plan to upgrade areas, they are all subject to change if technical issues require a delay.

[Ignitionnet]

No, no advance timetable.

Mainly because, although there is a likely plan to upgrade areas, they are all subject to change if technical issues require a delay.

It should be noted that, in some areas, the upgrades required are quite extensive.

[nellam]

I'm in Huddersfield, Had 5Meg upload for over a week now. I don't remember having to reboot modem.

Neil

[Peter_]

I'm in Huddersfield, Had 5Meg upload for over a week now. I don't remember having to reboot modem.

Neil
We can reboot your modem remotely if required.

[DigitalShadow]

We're increasing our upload speeds

We're making improvements to our network, and upgrading our customers to faster upload speeds by the end of 2011.

End of 2011, some of us could be waiting a while for this upgrade!

Source - At bottom of page (http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/discover-broadband/broadband-speed/download-speeds.html)

[Peter_]

End of 2011, some of us could be waiting a while for this upgrade!

Source - At bottom of page (http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/discover-broadband/broadband-speed/download-speeds.html)
As with all previous upgrades it will be area by area and very likely 100Mb will also be be rolling out in the same timescale but no dates as yet for that to start.:)

[virginruinedntl]

damn, i thought it would be done within 4 months, it could be 15 months until the upgrades are done :( That sucks big time!

[mjpartyboy]

I posted this in the 'broadband speeds' thread, but I guess it's more appropriate here:

I knew they were trialling the higher upload for 50 MB customers, but I didn't realise all tiers would be getting an upgrade. Every little helps.

When Major Nelson was in Japan for the Tokyo Game Show he did a speed test where he was staying and the download was around 18 MB and the upload was around 20 MB. Shows how far behind we are in the UK.

[roger skillin]

When Major Nelson was in Japan for the Tokyo Game Show he did a speed test where he was staying and the download was around 18 MB and the upload was around 20 MB. Shows how far behind we are in the UK.


I'd say that's a bit of a rubbish service they've got then to have a higher upload than download, 20mb download? 50mb has been available for a while now over here and as for upload , 99% of people would not need anywhere near that much, it should be 10 to 1 which with this upgrade it will be

[vmfriend]

I'd say that's a bit of a rubbish service they've got then to have a higher upload than download, 20mb download? 50mb has been available for a while now over here and as for upload , 99% of people would not need anywhere near that much, it should be 10 to 1 which with this upgrade it will be

It was free WiFi so i would have to disagree with your comments.

Here is the speedtest he posted on twitter

http://www.speedtest.net/result/960219944.png

[roger skillin]

[QUOTE=vmfriend;35101747]It was free WiFi so i would have to disagree with your comments.

QUOTE]

Well you didn't say that did you, so if it was'nt wifi then my comments would be correct

[A[L]C]

So does the shaping only come in once your upload is upgraded?

[cimt]

If it wasn't wifi he'd probably get a better speed...

[Central]

No, no advance timetable.

Mainly because, although there is a likely plan to upgrade areas, they are all subject to change if technical issues require a delay.

And people will cry to leave if a date is given and 1 hour after the date has elapsed.

[scoobydoo[uk]]

C;35101805']So does the shaping only come in once your upload is upgraded?

Looking at the traffic management pages it looks like the traffic shaping is in already.

It mentions p2p and usenet management.

Im not 100% sure though, but just done some usenet downloading and the speed is lower than i usually get at this time of night
and my 20mb hasnt had the upload increase.

[Ignitionnet]

It doesn't say anything about the shaping being linked to the upgrade, just the new STM.

[vmfriend]

[QUOTE=vmfriend;35101747]It was free WiFi so i would have to disagree with your comments.

QUOTE]

Well you didn't say that did you, so if it was'nt wifi then my comments would be correct

I didn't say anything as I didn't write the original post.

[Chrysalis]

my guess is the shaping will come on in a faster rollout then the upgrade so the areas who get the upgrade last will have shaping before the upgrade.

[Jayster]

No consumer network has close to enough capacity to handle any amount of users using their full available bandwidth. You're talking 50:1 or more on the 50Mbit product as far as bandwidth sold to available goes.

This allocates 1Mbps to each customer. This is way in excess of the allocation of many ISPs, some allocate as little as 30-40kbps to each customer.

---------- Post added at 19:30 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------



It helped tremendously. Without it and given the rise in bandwidth usage the network would have keeled over.

If it was sold to your in that manner that's not ideal at all. As far as 'fibre optic' goes it doesn't change that, even on fully fibre optic connections, capacity is shared.

How much capacity do you think Virgin Media have altogether?

[leexgx]

interesting read all this is, i could never consider BT as an option {at the currant speeds of 1-2mb where i am}not for i guess 10-15 years, cable will always be-able to beat BT ADSL tech until they do role out fiber to the house or coxa to the house(like cable do) as to why i say 10-15 years, taken them 10 years to get to the 1-5 year FTTC role out thats going on now, even with these limations in place Do understand you can download 50-100gb an day on VM services, you do that on an BT/ADSL connection you mite get the boot or get charged for it (option 3 unlimited service that's Not unlimited)

(capacity is dependant where you are where i am i am Very close to the main internet pipe and not so many users at all on my node that use 50mb, less then 100) not seen my connection drop in speed when downloading with usenet (not posting my provider){apart from the issue with the bandwidth provider screwing the link between VM and the main internet pipe}

Never had an issue when i was on 10-20mb services to get full download speeds (50mb on the other hand no VM network issues at getting 50mb apart from when the bandwidth provider cant do it)

be interesting if they have fixed the problem with the bandwidth provider that the 50mb users use (like myself) as it used to drop to 10mb with high packetloss for short times (5-10mins) then go back up to full speed for 1hr then drop again (this only happen if i downloaded like 8-15gb) {this was not an VM network fault it was the bandwidth provider that VM use that was or is at fault}

also the upload speed update would be an profile update on the modem so for the most part over night your modem most likely will reboot on its own to get the correct profile (no harm turning the modem off and on thought but still think it will do it on its own)

[|Kippa|]

Personally I thought they might bring in some restrictions when the new 5mbit upload rate was introduced. As for the new changes, they could have been a lot more worse/draconian, so overall from me the new changes get a thumbs up from me. One thing that I am curious about is what sort of management/shaping will be introduced on the up and comming 100mbit connection. If they keep it the same at it is at the moment then that isn't too bad. I am glad that they have left ftp and ssh alone, which means that is good for people who want to upload/download to their website or dedicated server.

[horseman]

.... all we can do with the present information is just hum and har and say sorry no idea what is happening to your connection.

That's reassuring to see that some things won't change then? ;)

[Peter_]

That's reassuring to see that some things won't change then? ;)
I take that obviously you have never spoken to me then.;)

[horseman]

I take that obviously you have never spoken to me then.;)

Only when I delivered your new bed..... (tip was appreciated) ;)

[colin25]

Only when I delivered your new bed..... (tip was appreciated) ;)

Ok, this is getting strange :D

[horseman]

Ok, this is getting strange :D

Suggest you might want to sleep on it then.....?

or check: Callcentre's Zzzzzzz (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/62/33656727-installation-tomorrow.html#post34894423)

:dunce:

[colin25]

Suggest you might want to sleep on it then.....?

or check: Callcentre's Zzzzzzz (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/62/33656727-installation-tomorrow.html#post34894423)

:dunce:

I meant masque giving tip :D

[joglynne]

The tip was probably to ring VM just after 8am. :D

[colin25]

:D

[Ero]

Edit

[Peter_]

Suggest you might want to sleep on it then.....?

or check: Callcentre's Zzzzzzz (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/62/33656727-installation-tomorrow.html#post34894423)

:dunce:
As per usual totally out of context.:D

[Ignitionnet]

How much capacity do you think Virgin Media have altogether?

Over 9000.

It doesn't matter at all how much they have and such a number would be worthless anyway. Purely PR material.

[merlintt]

I only use my connection for xbox and a bit of web browsing so I don`t think this will effect me?

Good news about the increased upload though,should help for hosting games.

[telfordcable]

I just wish Virgin Media post the lists of area by area new upload speed upgrade of when ! Fed up of waiting in the dark!

[virginruinedntl]

Yeah, i'd rather know the approximate month i might be getting it. Can't believe it could take 15 months, thats just crazy!

[Ignitionnet]

I just wish Virgin Media post the lists of area by area new upload speed upgrade of when ! Fed up of waiting in the dark!

I'm sure when they themselves have a schedule they'll release it.

[crazyronnie]

Anyone in NW London got the upload speed upgrade?

[pabscars]

I just wish Virgin Media post the lists of area by area new upload speed upgrade of when ! Fed up of waiting in the dark!

Chuck another quid int meter then ;)

[Tardy]

OK quick question it say on 5Mb upload you get capped between 3 - 8 PM after 6000MB.

What does that actually work out to in good old fashioned K/sec as my old brain is not upto the task of actually managing the mathematics.

what I am really asking is what is the amount of data transfered per second before you would hit the cap, not that I ever expect to get capped its just nice to know the figures in good old fashioned K/sec for us oldies.

[pip08456]

good old fashioned K/sec for us oldies.

And would that be Kb/sec or KB/sec?

[colin25]

and for the slightly older ones...how does that compare to downloading using old Commodore 64...:D

[virginruinedntl]

just download 6gb from usenet at full 50mb speed then multiple the time by 10.

[Tardy]

And would that be Kb/sec or KB/sec?

Ahh UMM (goes to look at which is which) ;)

KB according to the utorrent program I use :)

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:50 ----------

and for the slightly older ones...how does that compare to downloading using old Commodore 64...:D

I still have a c64 gathering dust somewhere.

[pip08456]

Ahh UMM (goes to look at which is which) ;)

KB according to the utorrent program I use :

So really you just want to know what to set utorrent at then.

In the scheduler set upload limit at 350KB/s between 3.00-8.00pm and you'll be OK.

(Options/preferences/scheduler)

[Sirius]

I just wish Virgin Media post the lists of area by area new upload speed upgrade of when ! Fed up of waiting in the dark!

Telford will be last, That's what my friend of a friend of the ceo's cat said. :)

[Peter_]

Telford will be last, That's what my friend of a friend of the ceo's cat said. :)
I thought it had been missed of the list.;)

[boroboi]

Middlesbrough area seems to have been done. Havent been on for a while so been in the dark about these upgrades. Woke up this morning to see i was seeding a torrent at over 100KB/s, thought it might have been an error. Anyway, speedtest confirmed it and now it's all explained. Didn't even restart my modem to download the newer config. Been a long time coming i say :D

[virginruinedntl]

I wish modems have a way to reboot them from 192.168.100.1, i have to go downstairs and yank the power cable out for 30secs. Would be easier to see if there's a new config for my modem.

[broadbandking]

When I log on to 192.168.100.1 under the configuration tab I have the option to restart the modem, what modem have you got?

[virginruinedntl]

i have no such option, i've got the Ambit 256 modem (http://nickpackhamonline.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/03032009241.jpg), i'm on 20mb.

[Ignitionnet]

One really good option here is to not obsess over an upgrade you may not get for several months by restarting your cable modem on a regular basis and to simply carry on with life as per normal.

It's likely that VM will force all the modems to reconnect soon-ish after upgrading each card anyway. In addition if you aren't on an upstream channel with a symbol rate of 5120ksym/s - you should be able to see this from your cable modem - you aren't getting upgraded yet, it's a prerequisite.

[boroboi]

One really good option here is to not obsess over an upgrade you may not get for several months by restarting your cable modem on a regular basis and to simply carry on with life as per normal.

It's likely that VM will force all the modems to reconnect soon-ish after upgrading each card anyway. In addition if you aren't on an upstream channel with a symbol rate of 5120ksym/s - you should be able to see this from your cable modem - you aren't getting upgraded yet, it's a prerequisite.

Im on a symbol rate of 2560ksym/s and upgraded.

[virginruinedntl]

i'm on 6952 Ksym/sec :(

[pabscars]

One really good option here is to not obsess over an upgrade you may not get for several months by restarting your cable modem on a regular basis and to simply carry on with life as per normal.

It's likely that VM will force all the modems to reconnect soon-ish after upgrading each card anyway. In addition if you aren't on an upstream channel with a symbol rate of 5120ksym/s - you should be able to see this from your cable modem - you aren't getting upgraded yet, it's a prerequisite.

K-ching ;), back of the net, get it my son, reeeeeeeeesult.

Not that I'm obsessing of course quite the contrary :Yes:

[Fitze73]

K-ching ;), back of the net, get it my son, reeeeeeeeesult.

Not that I'm obsessing of course quite the contrary :Yes:

u should be with yr current kill death ratio on mw 2 lol :)

[Ignitionnet]

Im on a symbol rate of 2560ksym/s and upgraded.

What modulation?

Someone may well have screwed up.

EDIT: Ah you're on 10Mbit. You guys can feasibly be on 2560ksym/s, 20 and 50Mbit certainly not.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

i'm on 6952 Ksym/sec :(

Upstream symbol rate not downstream.

[virginruinedntl]

ahh, i'm on 2560 Ksym/sec for upstream. modulation is: QAM16

[pabscars]

u should be with yr current kill death ratio on mw 2 lol :)

That's cause I run and gun, not cower and camp ;)
:D

[Fitze73]

ark at him lol :) , might use my mic one day lol :) noticed you had yours on the other night.....

[pabscars]

ark at him lol :) , might use my mic one day lol :) noticed you had yours on the other night.....

Its good to talk :)

My mic always appears on due to the fact it's a permanently wired turtle beach head set.

Don't be scared

[crazyronnie]

im on 5120 so hopefully i'll get upgraded soon

[Chrysalis]

One really good option here is to not obsess over an upgrade you may not get for several months by restarting your cable modem on a regular basis and to simply carry on with life as per normal.

It's likely that VM will force all the modems to reconnect soon-ish after upgrading each card anyway. In addition if you aren't on an upstream channel with a symbol rate of 5120ksym/s - you should be able to see this from your cable modem - you aren't getting upgraded yet, it's a prerequisite.

How do I see the symbol rate? I am guessing my modem is hiding it. Is scientific atlanta.

[pip08456]

How do I see the symbol rate? I am guessing my modem is hiding it. Is scientific atlanta.

It will be on one of the modem pages, I don't know my way round an SA modem though.

[Chrysalis]

It will be on one of the modem pages, I don't know my way round an SA modem though.

isnt there, the page with most details on says this.

The data shown in the table below provides information about the signal coming from the network to your cable modem.

Downstream Status Operational
Channel ID 55
Downstream Frequency 315000000 Hz
Modulation 256QAM
Bit Rate 20480000 bits/sec
Power Level 0.2 dBmV
Signal to Noise Ratio 41.5 dB


Upstream Channel
The data shown in the table below provides information about the signal being transmitted to the network from your cable modem.

Upstream Status Operational
Channel ID 8
Upstream Frequency 47400000 Hz
Modulation 16QAM
Symbol Rate 768000 bits/sec
Power Level 45.0 dBmV

[colin25]

you have a 20mb and 768 upload from that

[Chrysalis]

you have a 20mb and 768 upload from that

I know but I dont know my Ksym/sec .

[colin25]

are you using

http://192.168.100.1/

[pip08456]

are you using

http://192.168.100.1/

Yes he will be but the SA modem has a different GUI

[colin25]

:dunce: ok

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

i am blind on this, but is this any good?

1. Click on the link http://192.168.100.1/_aslvl.asp.
2. You'll get a dialog box asking for user/pass - enter "admin" for user, "W2402" for pass.
3. Hit OK, you'll then land at another page. On this page, set Access Level to 3, leave the username field BLANK, and enter "W2402" again for the password. Don't enter anything in the password field!!!
4. Hit OK again, and it will let you into the full diagnostics menus of the modem.

[pip08456]

:dunce: ok

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

i am blind on this, but is this any good?

1. Click on the link http://192.168.100.1/_aslvl.asp.
2. You'll get a dialog box asking for user/pass - enter "admin" for user, "W2402" for pass.
3. Hit OK, you'll then land at another page. On this page, set Access Level to 3, leave the username field BLANK, and enter "W2402" again for the password. Don't enter anything in the password field!!!
4. Hit OK again, and it will let you into the full diagnostics menus of the modem.

Have you been Googling????

[Chrysalis]

:dunce: ok

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:00 ----------

i am blind on this, but is this any good?

1. Click on the link http://192.168.100.1/_aslvl.asp.
2. You'll get a dialog box asking for user/pass - enter "admin" for user, "W2402" for pass.
3. Hit OK, you'll then land at another page. On this page, set Access Level to 3, leave the username field BLANK, and enter "W2402" again for the password. Don't enter anything in the password field!!!
4. Hit OK again, and it will let you into the full diagnostics menus of the modem.

interesting, when the url worked I had high hopes.

But access level2 is the highest I can set and there is no username box, just the password box, however the password did work but cannot set level 3.

am I the only one here with this modem?

[colin25]

I can not tell a lie...I have google.

I am a google addict...maybe I need an intervention

:D

---------- Post added at 19:45 ---------- Previous post was at 19:42 ----------

What is the exact modem make and number?

[Chrysalis]

WebSTAR EPC2100R2

front of modem says cisco 2100 cable modem.

[colin25]

another attempt

http://community.virginmedia.com/t5/General-broadband-questions/dead-modem/m-p/12357#M1047

This says when you get to access level 2, click on return to main page

Though it also mentions it isn't there for long

[Chrysalis]

yes thats just to get what I have now. Some people cannot get the stats at all. I can get stats but not the one's ignition refers to.

[colin25]

I think it is set up to pis* people off

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23799800-Re-Signals-Scientific-Atlanta-WebSTAR-DPC2100R2

I am throwing in the towel...you need a mohhamid ali..I am just the water boy :D

[Chrysalis]

no problem thanks for looking around, however I think the thing ignition told people to check means its on docsis2, so if I am right I can just watch for the upstream modulation to change to 64QAM.

[janipewter]

What does it mean if your upstream symbol rate is 5120?

[Kabaal]

What does it mean if your upstream symbol rate is 5120?

From reading through the thread... that you'll be upgraded to the new upload speeds soon.

Mines still at 2560 unfortunately :/

[Radeon]

From reading through the thread... that you'll be upgraded to the new upload speeds soon.

Hope so :D, not sure what it may have been before but my upstream also reads 5120 and I am from the Neath/Swansea area.

We're always last down here get the latest upgrades :(

[pip08456]

What does it mean if your upstream symbol rate is 5120?

I think it just means that the network will support it. It cannot be a signal that you will be getting the upgrade soon as I've been on that sybol rate for months.

[Andrewcrawford23]

my data tranmisison is abit risty but if i rememebr correctly symobol rate is the max throughput you can send so when uploaidng your packt size has to be within that limit

been a while cant remember how to explain it better

[Sirius]

That's cause I run and gun

Only way to fight :)

[pip08456]

my data tranmisison is abit risty but if i rememebr correctly symobol rate is the max throughput you can send so when uploaidng your packt size has to be within that limit

been a while cant remember how to explain it better

Mine is none existant.

All this revolves around a post by Igni which people have been interpreting in their own way.

If I recall correctly (and I'm sure he will if I'm wrong) the post was saying that if the symbol rate was 5120 then the network in the area was ready for the upgrade.

At no time did he say if it had changed to that then your upgrade would be imminent. That's VM's decision on how they roll it out.

Work has been ongoing for quite a while preparing for the u/l upgrade in many areas which won't recieve it for a while yet.

[Andrewcrawford23]

Mine is none existant.

All this revolves around a post by Igni which people have been interpreting in their own way.

If I recall correctly (and I'm sure he will if I'm wrong) the post was saying that if the symbol rate was 5120 then the network in the area was ready for the upgrade.

At no time did he say if it had changed to that then your upgrade would be imminent. That's VM's decision on how they roll it out.

Work has been ongoing for quite a while preparing for the u/l upgrade in many areas which won't recieve it for a while yet.

well i probally say that be correct assuming my memory s correct about symbol rate, as you would need highr symbol rate for hgiher speed

[Ignitionnet]

my data tranmisison is abit risty but if i rememebr correctly symobol rate is the max throughput you can send so when uploaidng your packt size has to be within that limit

been a while cant remember how to explain it better

Nothing to do with that at all, symbol rate is exactly what it says it is, the rate of symbols an upstream channel carries per second.

Higher symbol rate, higher capacity channel, higher capacity channel less chance of congestion with higher upstream caps on each modem.

---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 16:03 ----------

no problem thanks for looking around, however I think the thing ignition told people to check means its on docsis2, so if I am right I can just watch for the upstream modulation to change to 64QAM.

VM are not doing 5120ksym/s 64QAM channels initially. There will be some isolated cases of these but the standard upgrade build is 2 x 6.4MHz (which gives a symbol rate of 5120ksym/s) 16QAM channels.

[Chrysalis]

VM are not doing 5120ksym/s 64QAM channels initially. There will be some isolated cases of these but the standard upgrade build is 2 x 6.4MHz (which gives a symbol rate of 5120ksym/s) 16QAM channels.

ok thanks, so basically I cannot find out until I actually have the upgrade.

[Ignitionnet]

ok thanks, so basically I cannot find out until I actually have the upgrade.

Due to your modem that is correct. Others would note the symbol rate change indicating they are on DOCSIS 2 however as mentioned this does not mean that the tier uplift is imminent, DOCSIS 2 has been on the network for quite some time for capacity relief.

[janipewter]

Some more areas have been added

Faster upload speeds are already available in the following areas:


Clifton
Enfield
Heckmondwike
Huddersfield
Nailsea
Sutton Coldfield
Warwick

[Bman]

How do i know what exchange i'm connected to? When my IP is logged in certain sites it also shows something like this:

xxxxxxxNAILxxxxxxxxxx.AZTW.CABLE.VIRGINMEDIA.COM

I assumed "nail" and "aztw" stood for nailsea and aztec west, but now i see Nailsea has already been upgraded, i must be on a different exchange right?

[janipewter]

Where abouts in the SW are you? I used to be on nailsea, now I'm always on newt (Newton Abbot)

[pip08456]

How do i know what exchange i'm connected to? When my IP is logged in certain sites it also shows something like this:

xxxxxxxNAILxxxxxxxxxx.AZTW.CABLE.VIRGINMEDIA.COM

I assumed "nail" and "aztw" stood for nailsea and aztec west, but now i see Nailsea has already been upgraded, i must be on a different exchange right?

Click on connection at the top of this page,

[nutellajunkie]

At last, did they actually listen to us, or are they afraid of the competition? Either way Id never actually move off cable. The deals we get are spectacular compared to the others. Ive always been happy with the tiers I have been on, and with the uploads being upgraded, this is only but even better. I am very happy about this. Im not much of a sharer, but uploading photos to get prints should be a little quicker.

Thank you VM!

[Ignitionnet]

How do i know what exchange i'm connected to? When my IP is logged in certain sites it also shows something like this:

xxxxxxxNAILxxxxxxxxxx.AZTW.CABLE.VIRGINMEDIA.COM

I assumed "nail" and "aztw" stood for nailsea and aztec west, but now i see Nailsea has already been upgraded, i must be on a different exchange right?

That doesn't mean that each and every card in the area has been upgraded, just that some have.

[Horace]

Have only briefly skimmed this thread but did Teesside just get upgraded? My modem had a fit earlier and it's now reporting.

Maximum Downstream Data Rate : 10240000 Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 1072000

Speed test results agree too.

Logs are full of UCD related references.

[Ignitionnet]

Your bit of Teesside just did, yeah.

[Synthetic]

Does that mean the rest of the north east could be due to be upgraded soon? or are they just dotting around certain areas of the country :(

[Horace]

Most of the people in Redcar that I've talked to appear to have been upgraded but not Stockton. So it is pretty local. It looks like it's testing throttling at the same time, when I do a speed test the upload maxes at 1meg then suddenly jolts to 6-700kbps after 3-4 seconds.

[Ignitionnet]

Does that mean the rest of the north east could be due to be upgraded soon? or are they just dotting around certain areas of the country :(

It'll be done according by sections of the Virgin network not according to areas of the country. An upgrade to Ex-Telewest Newcastle means nothing for Ex-ntl Teesside for example.

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:48 ----------

Most of the people in Redcar that I've talked to appear to have been upgraded but not Stockton. So it is pretty local. It looks like it's testing throttling at the same time, when I do a speed test the upload maxes at 1meg then suddenly jolts to 6-700kbps after 3-4 seconds.

Speed tests aren't shaped, but you have highlighted something, every variation in speed, absolutely everything will be blamed on shaping for a while now it's been announced :)

[Horace]

I did say testing, it was just a speedtest.net test so no volume to incur throttling. It's very consistent over 5 or 6 tests - 3 seconds at 1meg then immediately back to 6-700kbps. Internet is also very flaky at the moment with huge amounts of jitter showing up on Pingtest. My connection is always very consistent, always scoring an A on that site but understandable if these upgrades are as comprehensive as I've read.

[Ignitionnet]

Upload isn't shaped yet, not under testing either so probably related to the other issues.

[Zaim7890]

Mines just been done :D:D

Network Access : Allowed
Maximum Downstream Data Rate : 20480000
Maximum Upstream Data Rate : 2080000

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/43.png

[irishguymcr]

not this part of Manchester unfortunately

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/42.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[blackthorn]

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/41.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

Wirral seems to have been done overnight.

[Radeon]

Neath seems to have been upgraded, I woke up and went to surf the net on my on my iPhone but the net was down :(, rebooted modem, as my net very rarely goes down I thought I would check the modem config, and to my shock it's been upgraded :D

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/40.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[Chrysalis]

I did say testing, it was just a speedtest.net test so no volume to incur throttling. It's very consistent over 5 or 6 tests - 3 seconds at 1meg then immediately back to 6-700kbps. Internet is also very flaky at the moment with huge amounts of jitter showing up on Pingtest. My connection is always very consistent, always scoring an A on that site but understandable if these upgrades are as comprehensive as I've read.

tiscali style shaping :)

tiscali used to let a few seconds of data go through unthrottled so good for browsing but then the throttling kicked in regardless of port.

not saying yours is shaping but certianly is suspicous when you can repeat the behaviour. one thing I learned with isps is they tend to not be honest when it comes to shaping.

[Sirius]

tiscali style shaping :)

one thing I learned with isps is they tend to not be honest when it comes to shaping.

Well said :clap:

That is the same reason i dont trust them with DPI

[cookster]

Is there a roll out plan anywhere?

[BenMcr]

Is there a roll out plan anywhere?No, because it's not that simple to rollout

Details of the areas upgraded will be published at www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads (http://www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads)

[Andrewcrawford23]

No, because it's not that simple to rollout

Details of the areas upgraded will be published at www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads (http://www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads)
yeah and my ubr i slikely to be one f teh ;ast sicne it motorola ubr

[Horace]

tiscali style shaping :)

tiscali used to let a few seconds of data go through unthrottled so good for browsing but then the throttling kicked in regardless of port.

not saying yours is shaping but certianly is suspicous when you can repeat the behaviour. one thing I learned with isps is they tend to not be honest when it comes to shaping.

I doubt this is how it's going to be long term...or should I say hope :).

Video to illustrate :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3PvfpzlCSg

[Ignitionnet]

yeah and my ubr i slikely to be one f teh ;ast sicne it motorola ubr

It's nothing to do with the type of CMTS you connect to it's the network in between that matters.

Of the sites currently enabled:

Clifton
Enfield
Heckmondwike
Huddersfield
Nailsea
Sutton Coldfield
Warwick

Huddersfield is the only one that isn't Motorola.

---------- Post added at 09:04 ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 ----------

I doubt this is how it's going to be long term...or should I say hope :).

Video to illustrate :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3PvfpzlCSg

That isn't shaping. 100%. Aside from anything else there's no upstream shaping yet and even if there were no ISP has noted issues with Allot equipment shaping speedtests, they're pretty easy to identify and misidentification is extremely unlikely.

I would say it's more likely to be an issue with the upstream uplift.

I knew this would happen when application shaping was mentioned. https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2014/04/4.gif

[Andrewcrawford23]

It's nothing to do with the type of CMTS you connect to it's the network in between that matters.

Of the sites currently enabled:

Clifton
Enfield
Heckmondwike
Huddersfield
Nailsea
Sutton Coldfield
Warwick

Huddersfield is the only one that isn't Motorola.

---------- Post added at 09:04 ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 ----------



That isn't shaping. 100%. Aside from anything else there's no upstream shaping yet and even if there were no ISP has noted issues with Allot equipment shaping speedtests, they're pretty easy to identify and misidentification is extremely unlikely.

I would say it's more likely to be an issue with the upstream uplift.

I knew this would happen when application shaping was mentioned. https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2014/04/4.gif
i hope so i have seen the ubr i am conented to capicty ainta problem but i suspect there netowrk problems oh well tiem will tell

[rainer]

Ive got the 5mb upload speed now.

[morley04]

Rainer were are you located?

[pabscars]

Ive got the 5mb upload speed now.

What area are you from dude

[joe-1981]

5MB upload wow i'll have some of that...... Not in the area yet but surprise surprise virgin dont like traffic jams

"Customers with Broadband size: XXL (50Mb) – your downstream usage excluding file sharing traffic (see below) remains unaffected and we'll soon be increasing your upload speeds from 1.5Mb to 5Mb. However during peak times we'll need to slow you back to 1.75Mb if your upload usage is particularly high"

Particularily high?, care to elaborate.... Nope... Thanks for that :D


http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.html

[Ignitionnet]

5MB upload wow i'll have some of that...... Not in the area yet but surprise surprise virgin dont like traffic jams

"Customers with Broadband size: XXL (50Mb) – your downstream usage excluding file sharing traffic (see below) remains unaffected and we'll soon be increasing your upload speeds from 1.5Mb to 5Mb. However during peak times we'll need to slow you back to 1.75Mb if your upload usage is particularly high"

Particularily high?, care to elaborate.... Nope... Thanks for that :D


http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management.html

Interesting page that one. Especially the big red link just below those comments that says 'See our traffic management policy (http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-policy.html)' where you get the list of exact amounts. There's even a link in that page 'Traffic management for customers with improved upload speeds (http://shop.virginmedia.com/help/traffic-management/traffic-management-faster-uploads.html)' giving the exact amount for the new policy.

So yes, they'd care to elaborate if people can manage the 2 clicks of a mouse from the announcement that are required to get the details ;)

Ah you're from Norfolk, never mind :p:

[pabscars]

Come on Igni, it can be awkward clickin a mouse when your all fingers and thumbs ;)



:D:D:D

[The Hitman]

I got a letter i didn't like about downloading between 9am and 9pm. Rang up the number and was told its not traffic managemjent but the AUP. I only did 1.2tb . I don't understand the difference between the AUP and traffic management as the AUP was being used for traffic management.

[pip08456]

Come on Igni, it can be awkward clickin a mouse when your all fingers and thumbs ;)



:D:D:D

My left foot!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D:D:angel::dunce:

[Ignitionnet]

I only did 1.2tb .

Is that all? :confused:

The AUP is slightly different, there's going to be 3 different things applied to the connections.

Traffic Management
Application Management
AUP

[pip08456]

ONLY 1.2Tb HAS to be ACCEPTABLE use hasn't it??????????????

Or am I missing something about someone hogging the bandwidth more than someone else here????????? :p::p::dozey:

[joe-1981]

Ah you're from Norfolk, never mind :p:

I am to busy with my sister to hit the usage cap :erm: :D

[Hugh]

I got a letter i didn't like about downloading between 9am and 9pm. Rang up the number and was told its not traffic managemjent but the AUP. I only did 1.2tb . I don't understand the difference between the AUP and traffic management as the AUP was being used for traffic management.Why would you run your Business Systems weekly full backup during the day - surely it would be better run overnight, when no users are on the Systems?

[friely]

Darlington has now updated
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/28.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[RichieUK]

Darlington has now updated


Yep :) For some reason the download speed kept going to high, but the upload speed was fine
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/27.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[scoobydoo[uk]]

Stoke on Trent has been updated too...

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/26.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[*sloman*]

still no roll out plan, is just as and when, i'll keep rebooting the modem. looking forward to my 5mb

[Stabhappy]

Cwmbran is now done also

[colin25]

I think we should start a campaign...taking it area by area

Ok..I'll start...Edinburgh first

Send all your emails to Virgin..stating you want Edinburgh to be upgraded

I will of course then support the next area...who's with me :D

[pip08456]

Cwmbran is now done also

Not far away from you so who knows???? Won't hold my breath though!

[rainer]

What area are you from dude

Sorry for the late reply.

Im from Leicestershire. I was actually uploading at the same time i did the test below

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2010/10/25.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

[MeWhy]

I approve of network management on the upload stream, to avoid idiots using torrents 24 hours a day maxing out the upload for the street/area.

If they don't place some sort of management in place, we'l all eventually experience upstream congestion due to P2P users in the area.

Good call Virgin Media

[dgcarter]

No, because it's not that simple to rollout

Details of the areas upgraded will be published at www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads (http://www.virginmedia.com/fasteruploads)

In what way is flicking a switch not simple?

[Sirius]

In what way is flicking a switch not simple?

Do you have any idea what so ever of the amount of work that is required to upgrade the system for this, Would you like to tell us how you would have done it, What kit would you fit and why, Where would you fit it, How many men do you need to complete it at each hub site, how many hub sites need upgrades ????

You accuse members of staff of being mouth pieces (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35102590-post2.html), Now is your chance to prove you know something and that your not just another ranter on a forum hiding behind your keyboard with a chip on his shoulder.

[dgcarter]

Do you have any idea what so ever of the amount of work that is required to upgrade the system for this, Would you like to tell us how you would have done it, What kit would you fit and why, Where would you fit it, How many men do you need to complete it ????

You accuse members of staff of being mouth pieces (http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35102590-post2.html), Now is your chance to prove you know something and that your not just another ranter on a forum hiding behind your keyboard with a chip on his shoulder.

In what way is a simple request for information a rant? And to prove to you that I do know something, I know how to spell you're. And no I don't have answers to your question. Perhaps you'd like to prove your superiority by enlightening us with your wisdom.

Perhaps if BenMcr were to give some insight into what the not simple is there wouldn't be such confusion. Oh and I have never accused any virgin staff of being mouthpieces. I used the phrase Virgin's mouthpieces, not virgin staff mouthpieces.


Looking forward to the Tigers handing the Wolves two good thrashings next season.

[Sirius]

Looking forward to the Tigers handing the Wolves two good thrashings next season.

In your dreams.

[BenMcr]

Perhaps if BenMcr were to give some insight into what the not simple is there wouldn't be such confusion.The upstream improvements need work across the network to support the higher upload speeds.

So any area is dependent on many different bits of work completing at the same time.

If one of those bits of work takes longer to complete that originally planned, then the date of upgrade would be changed.

And I can guarantee that if Virgin published a list with provisional dates, and those dates changed it would cause more complaints that it would solve.

[colin25]

The upstream improvements need work across the network to support the higher upload speeds.

So any area is dependent on many different bits of work completing at the same time.

If one of those bits of work takes longer to complete that originally planned, then the date of upgrade would be changed.

And I can guarantee that if Virgin published a list with provisional dates, and those dates changed it would cause more complaints that it would solve.

So true..it is just putting a target for others to shoot at...let them aim aimlessly :D

[Chrysalis]

I am surprised my area doesnt have the shaping yet, I would expect an isp to put in the over subscribed areas first. Or maybe it is enabled and I havent noticed it.

[chambohambo]

As the new policy been rolled out all over the UK?

---

File sharing

We moderate the total volume of file sharing traffic on our network between 5pm and midnight on weekdays and midday and midnight on weekends. This policy is restricted to Peer to Peer ("P2P") applications and Newsgroups (which are commonly used to distribute large amounts of data)

This policy does not impact any applications other than Peer to Peer and Newsgroups, so things like watching iPlayer, online gaming, making calls via Skype, downloading music tracks from iTunes or streaming them from Spotify and sending an email or normal browsing are unaffected.

It's important to remember that these traffic management policies only apply at peak times when speeds are most likely to be affected by people using more than their fair share. Outside of peak times we do not manage traffic.

[Sirius]

As the new policy been rolled out all over the UK?



No not yet

[|Kippa|]

To be honest for the price you pay for the conneciton, you get a pritty good service. It is only like a fraction of the cost of a leased line. I think too many users are having it good for too long and have taken VM and its services for granted. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it is perfect but for cost/performance ratio it is very good. Even with all the restrictions implaced it is still better than ADSL in my opinion.

[Chrysalis]

To be honest for the price you pay for the conneciton, you get a pritty good service. It is only like a fraction of the cost of a leased line. I think too many users are having it good for too long and have taken VM and its services for granted. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it is perfect but for cost/performance ratio it is very good. Even with all the restrictions implaced it is still better than ADSL in my opinion.

Generally it puts adsl to bed, however the performance thing is area dependent. A good area under STM be faster than a bad area not under STM.

[EssDee]

And I can guarantee that if Virgin published a list with provisional dates, and those dates changed it would cause more complaints that it would solve.

This is what is called 'expectation management'. As somebody that makes a living out of IT Programme & Project Management, this indicates to me that VM have no confidence in their ability to deliver. I would love to work to open ended project plans. You can't lose.....

[BenMcr]

This is what is called 'expectation management'. As somebody that makes a living out of IT Programme & Project Management, this indicates to me that VM have no confidence in their ability to deliver. I would love to work to open ended project plans. You can't lose.....As a project manager you should be aware the more things that are required, the more a small slip in one program has a knock on effect to all the others. It's not about confidence in the schedule, it's about being realistic. The upstream upgrades require significantly more work than any previous upgrade did.

Additionally, there is a difference between 'expectation management' and what happens when Virgin publish a schedule.

For good or bad as soon as customers seen 'Spring' or 'Summer' or even for instance 'May' as a date they start phoning up on the first day that it applies, and continue to phone throughout the entire period - causing the call centres to become extremely overloaded with calls they should not be dealing with

It's happened before during previous upgrade work, and that was the downstream upgrades which were easy to do